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{\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 662.829, \"end\": 663.029, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 663.029, \"end\": 663.249, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 663.249, \"end\": 663.269, \"score\": 0.531}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,852 --> 00:00:24,999\n請蔡易委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。\n\n2\n00:00:26,287 --> 00:00:48,097\n部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果\n\n3\n00:00:51,311 --> 00:00:52,351\n我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話\n\n4\n00:01:15,663 --> 00:01:42,611\n那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許\n\n5\n00:01:43,351 --> 00:02:04,223\n我們可以從利息上面去調整,可以借到更便宜的利息。第二個,可能就是我們台電的同仁,這個薪水稍微大家努力一下。可能就是從獎金、獎金的部分,可以稍微漲一下。但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛。我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣。\n\n6\n00:02:12,648 --> 00:02:23,222\n但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候\n\n7\n00:02:26,041 --> 00:02:44,043\n也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我常常講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。\n\n8\n00:02:45,344 --> 00:03:02,174\n過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要\n\n9\n00:03:02,654 --> 00:03:22,306\n那未來以部長你的規劃你想像中未來很多責任不應該在完全讓台電去扛在第一線所以部長你這個說法起來是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙\n\n10\n00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:42,461\n讓這個來協助就大家一起來協助就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱勢團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%\n\n11\n00:03:52,208 --> 00:04:08,354\n那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%未及15%的調幅\n\n12\n00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:26,465\n有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就動漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應\n\n13\n00:04:27,606 --> 00:04:36,309\n他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題的是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業\n\n14\n00:04:42,793 --> 00:04:43,473\n蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n15\n00:05:01,001 --> 00:05:26,730\n他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力\n\n16\n00:05:28,090 --> 00:05:53,655\n我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲、重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事情是謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來做為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間\n\n17\n00:05:57,136 --> 00:06:12,720\n那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為我想您的這個指教呢我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會\n\n18\n00:06:15,421 --> 00:06:41,740\n他們來參考很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎\n\n19\n00:06:44,824 --> 00:07:06,610\n這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分\n\n20\n00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:25,900\n要當產業的防波體、物價的防波體我認為經濟部本身也應該要編部分的預算來直接來協助台電一起來協助這樣的一些他在這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業來幫助他們報告委員我認為這個台電的問題應該是兩件事情就是說\n\n21\n00:07:33,024 --> 00:07:59,866\n因為不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低啦第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升啦那從這個本身的體質啊來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用\n\n22\n00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,361\n部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是\n\n23\n00:08:28,968 --> 00:08:30,129\n現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被\n\n24\n00:08:56,104 --> 00:09:13,007\n中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了\n\n25\n00:09:13,988 --> 00:09:35,494\n我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了\n\n26\n00:09:40,539 --> 00:09:48,585\n這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討\n\n27\n00:09:55,356 --> 00:10:11,812\n最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆到目前我們未來\n\n28\n00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:36,945\n對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸\n\n29\n00:10:39,466 --> 00:11:03,269\n中國的競爭,他們的競爭有價格優勢在攻擊你阿那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好阿是,謝謝,謝謝委員我們會建立這個基準來嚴審然後您剛才所指正的那個案子我們已經退掉了有退掉了,好那我了解,好那再繼續再保持阿是,好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n852\t24999\t請蔡易委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。\n26287\t48097\t部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果\n51311\t52351\t我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話\n75663\t102611\t那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許\n103351\t124223\t我們可以從利息上面去調整,可以借到更便宜的利息。第二個,可能就是我們台電的同仁,這個薪水稍微大家努力一下。可能就是從獎金、獎金的部分,可以稍微漲一下。但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛。我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣。\n132648\t143222\t但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候\n146041\t164043\t也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我常常講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。\n165344\t182174\t過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要\n182654\t202306\t那未來以部長你的規劃你想像中未來很多責任不應該在完全讓台電去扛在第一線所以部長你這個說法起來是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙\n206789\t222461\t讓這個來協助就大家一起來協助就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱勢團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%\n232208\t248354\t那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%未及15%的調幅\n253156\t266465\t有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就動漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應\n267606\t276309\t他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題的是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業\n282793\t283473\t蔡易餘蔡易餘\n301001\t326730\t他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力\n328090\t353655\t我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲、重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事情是謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來做為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間\n357136\t372720\t那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為我想您的這個指教呢我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會\n375421\t401740\t他們來參考很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎\n404824\t426610\t這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分\n427530\t445900\t要當產業的防波體、物價的防波體我認為經濟部本身也應該要編部分的預算來直接來協助台電一起來協助這樣的一些他在這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業來幫助他們報告委員我認為這個台電的問題應該是兩件事情就是說\n453024\t479866\t因為不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低啦第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升啦那從這個本身的體質啊來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用\n480900\t483361\t部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是\n508968\t510129\t現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被\n536104\t553007\t中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了\n553988\t575494\t我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了\n580539\t588585\t這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討\n595356\t611812\t最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆到目前我們未來\n616636\t636945\t對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸\n639466\t663269\t中國的競爭,他們的競爭有價格優勢在攻擊你阿那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好阿是,謝謝,謝謝委員我們會建立這個基準來嚴審然後您剛才所指正的那個案子我們已經退掉了有退掉了,好那我了解,好那再繼續再保持阿是,好謝謝\n","txt":"請蔡易委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。\n部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果\n我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話\n那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許\n我們可以從利息上面去調整,可以借到更便宜的利息。第二個,可能就是我們台電的同仁,這個薪水稍微大家努力一下。可能就是從獎金、獎金的部分,可以稍微漲一下。但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛。我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣。\n但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候\n也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我常常講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。\n過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要\n那未來以部長你的規劃你想像中未來很多責任不應該在完全讓台電去扛在第一線所以部長你這個說法起來是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙\n讓這個來協助就大家一起來協助就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱勢團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%\n那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%未及15%的調幅\n有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就動漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應\n他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題的是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業\n蔡易餘蔡易餘\n他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力\n我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲、重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事情是謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來做為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間\n那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為我想您的這個指教呢我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會\n他們來參考很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎\n這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分\n要當產業的防波體、物價的防波體我認為經濟部本身也應該要編部分的預算來直接來協助台電一起來協助這樣的一些他在這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業來幫助他們報告委員我認為這個台電的問題應該是兩件事情就是說\n因為不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低啦第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升啦那從這個本身的體質啊來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用\n部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是\n現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被\n中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了\n我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了\n這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討\n最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆到目前我們未來\n對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸\n中國的競爭,他們的競爭有價格優勢在攻擊你阿那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好阿是,謝謝,謝謝委員我們會建立這個基準來嚴審然後您剛才所指正的那個案子我們已經退掉了有退掉了,好那我了解,好那再繼續再保持阿是,好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.852 --> 00:24.999\n請蔡易委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。\n\n00:26.287 --> 00:48.097\n部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果\n\n00:51.311 --> 00:52.351\n我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話\n\n01:15.663 --> 01:42.611\n那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許\n\n01:43.351 --> 02:04.223\n我們可以從利息上面去調整,可以借到更便宜的利息。第二個,可能就是我們台電的同仁,這個薪水稍微大家努力一下。可能就是從獎金、獎金的部分,可以稍微漲一下。但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛。我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣。\n\n02:12.648 --> 02:23.222\n但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候\n\n02:26.041 --> 02:44.043\n也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我常常講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。\n\n02:45.344 --> 03:02.174\n過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要\n\n03:02.654 --> 03:22.306\n那未來以部長你的規劃你想像中未來很多責任不應該在完全讓台電去扛在第一線所以部長你這個說法起來是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙\n\n03:26.789 --> 03:42.461\n讓這個來協助就大家一起來協助就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱勢團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%\n\n03:52.208 --> 04:08.354\n那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%未及15%的調幅\n\n04:13.156 --> 04:26.465\n有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就動漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應\n\n04:27.606 --> 04:36.309\n他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題的是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業\n\n04:42.793 --> 04:43.473\n蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n05:01.001 --> 05:26.730\n他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力\n\n05:28.090 --> 05:53.655\n我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲、重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事情是謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來做為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間\n\n05:57.136 --> 06:12.720\n那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為我想您的這個指教呢我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會\n\n06:15.421 --> 06:41.740\n他們來參考很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎\n\n06:44.824 --> 07:06.610\n這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分\n\n07:07.530 --> 07:25.900\n要當產業的防波體、物價的防波體我認為經濟部本身也應該要編部分的預算來直接來協助台電一起來協助這樣的一些他在這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業來幫助他們報告委員我認為這個台電的問題應該是兩件事情就是說\n\n07:33.024 --> 07:59.866\n因為不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低啦第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升啦那從這個本身的體質啊來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用\n\n08:00.900 --> 08:03.361\n部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是\n\n08:28.968 --> 08:30.129\n現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被\n\n08:56.104 --> 09:13.007\n中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了\n\n09:13.988 --> 09:35.494\n我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了\n\n09:40.539 --> 09:48.585\n這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討\n\n09:55.356 --> 10:11.812\n最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆到目前我們未來\n\n10:16.636 --> 10:36.945\n對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸\n\n10:39.466 --> 11:03.269\n中國的競爭,他們的競爭有價格優勢在攻擊你阿那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好阿是,謝謝,謝謝委員我們會建立這個基準來嚴審然後您剛才所指正的那個案子我們已經退掉了有退掉了,好那我了解,好那再繼續再保持阿是,好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.852,"end":24.999,"text":"請蔡易委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":26.287,"end":48.097,"text":"部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果"},{"start":51.311,"end":52.351,"text":"我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話"},{"start":75.663,"end":102.611,"text":"那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許"},{"start":103.351,"end":124.223,"text":"我們可以從利息上面去調整,可以借到更便宜的利息。第二個,可能就是我們台電的同仁,這個薪水稍微大家努力一下。可能就是從獎金、獎金的部分,可以稍微漲一下。但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛。我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣。"},{"start":132.648,"end":143.222,"text":"但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候"},{"start":146.041,"end":164.043,"text":"也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我常常講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。"},{"start":165.344,"end":182.174,"text":"過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要"},{"start":182.654,"end":202.306,"text":"那未來以部長你的規劃你想像中未來很多責任不應該在完全讓台電去扛在第一線所以部長你這個說法起來是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙"},{"start":206.789,"end":222.461,"text":"讓這個來協助就大家一起來協助就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱勢團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%"},{"start":232.208,"end":248.354,"text":"那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%未及15%的調幅"},{"start":253.156,"end":266.465,"text":"有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就動漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應"},{"start":267.606,"end":276.309,"text":"他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題的是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業"},{"start":282.793,"end":283.473,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":301.001,"end":326.73,"text":"他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力"},{"start":328.09,"end":353.655,"text":"我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲、重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事情是謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來做為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間"},{"start":357.136,"end":372.72,"text":"那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為我想您的這個指教呢我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會"},{"start":375.421,"end":401.74,"text":"他們來參考很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎"},{"start":404.824,"end":426.61,"text":"這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分"},{"start":427.53,"end":445.9,"text":"要當產業的防波體、物價的防波體我認為經濟部本身也應該要編部分的預算來直接來協助台電一起來協助這樣的一些他在這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業來幫助他們報告委員我認為這個台電的問題應該是兩件事情就是說"},{"start":453.024,"end":479.866,"text":"因為不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低啦第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升啦那從這個本身的體質啊來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用"},{"start":480.9,"end":483.361,"text":"部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是"},{"start":508.968,"end":510.129,"text":"現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被"},{"start":536.104,"end":553.007,"text":"中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了"},{"start":553.988,"end":575.494,"text":"我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了"},{"start":580.539,"end":588.585,"text":"這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討"},{"start":595.356,"end":611.812,"text":"最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆到目前我們未來"},{"start":616.636,"end":636.945,"text":"對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸"},{"start":639.466,"end":663.269,"text":"中國的競爭,他們的競爭有價格優勢在攻擊你阿那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好阿是,謝謝,謝謝委員我們會建立這個基準來嚴審然後您剛才所指正的那個案子我們已經退掉了有退掉了,好那我了解,好那再繼續再保持阿是,好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1181,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時33分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長跟台電董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長、曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。昨天院會的時候，針對台電虧損的狀況，本席也提出了質詢；我們當然也期待特別預算可以獲得朝野共識，一起來審查這個特別預算，讓台電可以有這樣的財源挹注。但若國民黨或民眾黨不願意通過這個特別預算，台電公司為了這兩千億，就會很頭疼，就要想辦法了，是不是這樣？如果沒有這筆特別預算，請問你們的備案規劃是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：就一個企業來講，不要說求利，因為是國營事業，在不虧錢的情況下，來經營這個公司，是他們努力的方向。如果沒有這兩千億來彌補財務問題的話，就像委員昨天所指導的，也許我們可以從利息上面去調整，去借貸更便宜的利息；其次是台電同仁的薪水，可能就是獎金的部分，大家稍微降一下……"],["蔡委員易餘：我看最好不要這樣子……"],["郭部長智輝：這也不是我們願意的嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：去動到台電同仁的福利，我覺得不好，畢竟他們也這麼打拚。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，一般企業經營大概都是會這樣，國營企業不會這樣，我們不會去動到員工的薪酬。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，如果真出現這兩千億沒辦法來挹注的時候，也許就得思考其他的方案，可以再來研究……"],["郭部長智輝：我們再請大家來指導。"],["蔡委員易餘：我昨天也說了，因為台電公司扮演著物價「防波堤」的角色，過去它都擋在第一線，如果遇到產業寒冬的時候，就由台電負擔電價的損失；如果遇到物價上漲的時候，民生用電的部分凍漲，也是穩住物價的一環。所以台電公司的角色很重要。依部長的想像與規劃，未來很多責任不應該再完全讓台電扛在第一線，就這個說法來看，是不是我們中央政府也就是行政院自己就要扛在第一線？幫台電來分擔？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會請其他單位來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是大家一起來協助。過去可能有一些對農漁業、弱勢團體、社福團體的補助，就由他們自己來編列預算，台電就少了這部分的支出。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這對台電來說，也可以減少負擔。本席再講一個跟產業有關的議題，這次電價漲了12.5%，我們考慮到產業消退的狀態，所以我們以113年上半年度用電衰退15%為基準點，衰退15%以上的產業就凍漲，衰退5%至15%者就減半。但我後來也接收到很多產業向我反映，他們說只用113年用電衰退、產業銷售額衰退作為基準，會產生一個問題，比如我上次質詢時提到，傳統的鋼鐵業在兩年前俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退，已經盪到谷底，113年上半年，他們就已經在谷底了，就這麼慘了，也不可能再慘個15%給你看。相對之下，你說他是用電大戶，電價是他很大的成本，可是這個產業衰退是在兩年前，俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退到了谷底。所以，現在看起來我們的這一個制度，並沒辦法充分反映現在很多傳統產業因為用電成本上升，他們所面對的壓力。除了鋼鐵業，還有螺絲、重金屬業，也都有這樣的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，電價訂價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者，可能當初在訂定這個價的時候，這個部分沒有被提出來，作為他們的參考。我們每年有兩次調整電價，電價不一定只往上調，也有可能往下調。委員指教的這一點，我會提到12月的電價諮詢委員會，請他們參考。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，因為很多產業的狀況，以前就已經反映……"],["郭部長智輝：對，不能以這麼短的時間來做評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果用這麼短的時間來論定的話，基本上會有相對的剝奪感。這是第一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二點，台電公司面對產業這樣的衰退，電價凍漲或是減半，我看也是台電要負擔，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣說起來，我也覺得自我矛盾，一方面希望解決台電的問題，一方面又覺得很多產業需要用電上的照顧，因為他們真的沒有成長，我知道自己在這一題的論述會有矛盾，所以回到要台電當產業的防波堤、物價的防波堤這一點，我認為經濟部本身也應該編列部分的預算幫助台電，一起協助這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我認為台電的問題有兩件事情，不是補助或不補助，而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低；第二個，台電的經營效率要能夠提升，從本身的體質來改造，我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！當然啦！"],["郭部長智輝：因為電力是國力，所以我們希望大家可以用到比較便宜的電，這個是我們努力的方向，我們現在台電一直朝這個方向，包括怎麼樣提高創電的效率、怎麼樣在營運的效率上面來提升、減少成本的墊高，這是我們努力的方向，所以我才……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這是一直要這樣做、一直要保持的，但是我們現在要解決的是過去兩年成本的提高，造成大幅的虧損，所以我們現在短期內是遇到這個壓力……"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠改善我們財務上面的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個改善不只是現在，應該是持續都要做好改善的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，過去的虧損，也希望能夠改善。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒錯啊！第二個，我再用1分鐘的時間就好，跟部長再就教一下，現在我們好多產業真的都是被中國資金所侵略，尤其是一些我們看不到的產業，其中有兩個很有名的吳宗憲，像演藝界的吳宗憲投資LED，後來整個被中國廉價的LED打趴了；我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會，他說整個陸資都遁入新加坡或者是香港，同時把臺灣的帷幕牆，帷幕牆就是我們在蓋房子外面暫時包起來的那個，這些全部都被中國貨給壟斷了。你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員都有跳出來說了，那我們經濟部有正視帷幕牆被陸資壟斷的狀況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：只要有業者反映，我們都會列入檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：這件事情業者已經有反映了喔！他們的公會事實上都在反映，已經被陸資攻城掠地到，連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標──雙子星建設，也都是用陸資的帷幕牆。"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部以後會來了解這個問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，連我們臺灣未來指標的一個建案，都已經被中國攻城掠地了。對他們陸資的審核，是否足以嚴格？足以排除那些陸資，他們現在都是假借新加坡最多，我們認為，就這個部分，中國就是有他們的競爭力，他們就是用價格優勢在攻擊，我們臺灣當然在這部分要做好自己的自我防護，我們經濟部站在第一線，當然要幫它審查好。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，我們會建立這個基準來嚴審，然後您剛才所指正的那個案子，我們已經退掉了。"],["蔡委員易餘：有退掉了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我了解，那再繼續保持。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}}