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539.574, \"end\": 539.594, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 539.594, \"end\": 539.674, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"雅\", \"start\": 539.674, \"end\": 539.714, \"score\": 0.491}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 539.714, \"end\": 539.734, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,548 --> 00:00:07,192\n有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長\n\n2\n00:00:15,658 --> 00:00:36,770\n財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬\n\n3\n00:00:41,863 --> 00:01:09,922\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半\n\n4\n00:01:11,211 --> 00:01:11,391\n請審查委員\n\n5\n00:01:26,127 --> 00:01:54,000\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢\n\n6\n00:01:54,440 --> 00:02:22,926\n不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作\n\n7\n00:02:23,306 --> 00:02:40,691\n而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?\n\n8\n00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:50,930\n但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。\n\n9\n00:03:10,097 --> 00:03:34,076\n那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。\n\n10\n00:03:36,999 --> 00:03:48,313\n我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬\n\n11\n00:03:52,692 --> 00:04:14,064\n總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:22,796\n我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好\n\n13\n00:04:23,763 --> 00:04:23,843\n議員范雲等19人擬具\n\n14\n00:04:48,998 --> 00:04:55,444\n我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說\n\n15\n00:04:56,724 --> 00:05:25,305\n我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉\n\n16\n00:05:27,102 --> 00:05:42,752\n水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧\n\n17\n00:05:45,277 --> 00:06:11,211\n再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有\n\n18\n00:06:12,091 --> 00:06:34,213\n而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?\n\n19\n00:06:35,314 --> 00:06:59,523\n這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,\n\n20\n00:07:00,223 --> 00:07:03,384\n當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例\n\n21\n00:07:17,352 --> 00:07:37,630\n但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。\n\n22\n00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:42,691\n檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查\n\n23\n00:08:06,693 --> 00:08:31,209\n都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款\n\n24\n00:08:31,789 --> 00:08:58,854\n尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史\n\n25\n00:08:59,474 --> 00:08:59,734\n謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5548\t7192\t有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長\n15658\t36770\t財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬\n41863\t69922\t今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半\n71211\t71391\t請審查委員\n86127\t114000\t我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢\n114440\t142926\t不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作\n143306\t160691\t而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?\n170270\t170930\t但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。\n190097\t214076\t那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。\n216999\t228313\t我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬\n232692\t254064\t總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?\n255560\t262796\t我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好\n263763\t263843\t議員范雲等19人擬具\n288998\t295444\t我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說\n296724\t325305\t我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉\n327102\t342752\t水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧\n345277\t371211\t再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有\n372091\t394213\t而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?\n395314\t419523\t這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,\n420223\t423384\t當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例\n437352\t457630\t但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。\n458030\t462691\t檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查\n486693\t511209\t都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款\n511789\t538854\t尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史\n539474\t539734\t謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。\n","txt":"有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長\n財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半\n請審查委員\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢\n不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作\n而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?\n但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。\n那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。\n我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬\n總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?\n我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好\n議員范雲等19人擬具\n我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說\n我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉\n水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧\n再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有\n而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?\n這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,\n當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例\n但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。\n檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查\n都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款\n尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史\n謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.548 --> 00:07.192\n有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長\n\n00:15.658 --> 00:36.770\n財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬\n\n00:41.863 --> 01:09.922\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半\n\n01:11.211 --> 01:11.391\n請審查委員\n\n01:26.127 --> 01:54.000\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢\n\n01:54.440 --> 02:22.926\n不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作\n\n02:23.306 --> 02:40.691\n而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?\n\n02:50.270 --> 02:50.930\n但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。\n\n03:10.097 --> 03:34.076\n那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。\n\n03:36.999 --> 03:48.313\n我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬\n\n03:52.692 --> 04:14.064\n總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?\n\n04:15.560 --> 04:22.796\n我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好\n\n04:23.763 --> 04:23.843\n議員范雲等19人擬具\n\n04:48.998 --> 04:55.444\n我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說\n\n04:56.724 --> 05:25.305\n我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉\n\n05:27.102 --> 05:42.752\n水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧\n\n05:45.277 --> 06:11.211\n再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有\n\n06:12.091 --> 06:34.213\n而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?\n\n06:35.314 --> 06:59.523\n這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,\n\n07:00.223 --> 07:03.384\n當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例\n\n07:17.352 --> 07:37.630\n但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。\n\n07:38.030 --> 07:42.691\n檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查\n\n08:06.693 --> 08:31.209\n都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款\n\n08:31.789 --> 08:58.854\n尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史\n\n08:59.474 --> 08:59.734\n謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.548,"end":7.192,"text":"有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長"},{"start":15.658,"end":36.77,"text":"財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬"},{"start":41.863,"end":69.922,"text":"今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半"},{"start":71.211,"end":71.391,"text":"請審查委員"},{"start":86.127,"end":114,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢"},{"start":114.44,"end":142.926,"text":"不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作"},{"start":143.306,"end":160.691,"text":"而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?"},{"start":170.27,"end":170.93,"text":"但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。"},{"start":190.097,"end":214.076,"text":"那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。"},{"start":216.999,"end":228.313,"text":"我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬"},{"start":232.692,"end":254.064,"text":"總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?"},{"start":255.56,"end":262.796,"text":"我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好"},{"start":263.763,"end":263.843,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":288.998,"end":295.444,"text":"我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說"},{"start":296.724,"end":325.305,"text":"我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉"},{"start":327.102,"end":342.752,"text":"水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧"},{"start":345.277,"end":371.211,"text":"再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有"},{"start":372.091,"end":394.213,"text":"而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?"},{"start":395.314,"end":419.523,"text":"這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,"},{"start":420.223,"end":423.384,"text":"當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例"},{"start":437.352,"end":457.63,"text":"但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。"},{"start":458.03,"end":462.691,"text":"檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查"},{"start":486.693,"end":511.209,"text":"都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款"},{"start":511.789,"end":538.854,"text":"尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史"},{"start":539.474,"end":539.734,"text":"謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時）有請部長跟人權館館長。"],["主席：有請部長跟館長。"],["李部長遠：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。其實我過去在民間也參與非常多轉型正義的一些導讀，我也曾經申請過人權館的補助，我今天就想要針對人權館的補助先來做一個請教。我們可以看到人權館的補助，跟2021年相比，我們的預算整整少了將近八百萬，今（2024）年跟2021年相比，整整少了八百萬，我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多的，變成案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。我自己也看了，其實這些得到補助案的類型非常的廣泛，從戲劇類到展覽類非常多元，但是我也有聽到團體跟我說，過去它可以拿到50萬，現在直接砍一半。所以如果我們今天在講不義遺址，它需要做一些保存，它需要做一些推廣，可是我們的金額，不管是整體的補助經費下降，案件平均補助也下降，這樣到底要如何去執行呢？我想請教，我們現在如果去看人權館的整體預算，其實拿2025年跟2021年相比，也整整少了七千多萬，但是今年明明文化部是增加了17%的預算，為什麼人權館反而少了這麼多預算？第一個問題，我想請教部長，可不可以來支持我們的人權館，增加它的預算？第二個，是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費，回到當年的水準呢？不然，你看越來越多案子，可是大家拿的錢越來越少，今天如果我們要做戲劇、音樂類的，它到底要怎麼執行？部長，我想你也非常清楚。"],["李部長遠：我們有一個促轉基金，我們可以從那邊……"],["張委員雅琳：我看一下促轉基金的費用，其實……"],["李部長遠：那個地方如果加上這個就不少。"],["張委員雅琳：其實促轉基金只有申請2,400萬，但是我要講的是說，如果我們當時的預算可以去支應，為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作，而不是用促轉基金再去強化其他工作？像我們現在在講促轉基金，你們拿去做安康接待室的保存活化，對，這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目，所以拿促轉基金的錢來做，可是如果我們原本的預算，當年你就可以做到1,900萬的補助經費的話，為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢？還是請次長來回答呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們其實是希望儘量用促轉基金的費用來做，這樣本預算的基金可以再去做其他人權保存的工作，所以我們在這個預算的配置上，其實我們反而是朝向促轉基金來做申請，來做這些推廣跟保存，所以總體上是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：但問題是總體上人權館的預算還是下降啦！既然我們今天要做不義遺址的保存，有更多處要去進行的話，有這麼多工項……"],["王次長時思：但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：教育推廣沒有增加啊！我看2025年是1,100萬啊！"],["王次長時思：我是說總的，加上基金申請之後，全部放在這裡的預算。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是加上基金申請之後嘛，可是國家人權館的總體預算還是降了七千多萬，就算你加回去促轉基金，還是不到2021年的標準嘛！"],["王次長時思：那個是總體預算的調整啦！"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得這個問題，因為我時間很有限啦，但是我是希望我們可以有個時間好好討論，因為就算加上促轉基金2,400萬，你還是沒有回到2021年國家人權館的預算。因為人權館2021年是4億9,000萬。"],["王次長時思：總體的預算上的確是會有不同……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們工作越來越多項嘛，怎麼我們的經費是越來越少？而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的，所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題。"],["王次長時思：對，我們是希望爭取增加人權館的預算和人員。"],["張委員雅琳：因為如果國家人權館是我們要做這些相關的一個主要的單位的話，這個預算不能少啊！不然像我今年去……"],["王次長時思：我們希望可以爭取，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：對，拜託請部長支持好嗎？部長可以支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員講，這個預算雖然不高，可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影，講的是白色恐怖也好，那個電影的影響力有多大。最近我們……"],["張委員雅琳：當然啊……"],["李部長遠：所以我們最近就有兩部……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我也想要拜託部長繼續來支持我們相關的電影……"],["李部長遠：對，它的費用非常……"],["張委員雅琳：因為我有聽到一些團體跟我反映，說爭取預算有點辛苦啦，所以部長剛剛有講……"],["李部長遠：沒問題，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：會支持，那就拜託請繼續支持。"],["李部長遠：會。"],["張委員雅琳：回到人權館的預算，我希望是可以繼續來支持啦，好不好？這個我們可以詳細來討論，因為我知道就算加上促轉基金，我們的錢還是比當年要來得下降。","再來，回到這個版本上面，現在不義遺址在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到，建立個案資料和保存、活化、輔導的一些機制是有讓民團來參與的。但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話，現在全臺灣是有106處，未來可能還會增加，我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力去執行。所以這個部分我就參考了水下文化資產保存法，它其實有提到，主管機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動，所以在條文的設計上面，我們可以把民間的力量來納入，希望部長也可以來支持我的版本，這個部分可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，我們就一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，其實不義遺址的定義今天大家也有講，我們是不是可以更擴大？因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地，但是這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛，像「施儒珍之牆」，這個人當年為了要躲避政府的追緝，他砌了這個空間把他自己關起來，關了十幾年，所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有去擴大解釋的話，這樣我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解法律要有操作型的定義，所以這部分，我們是不是也可以跟文化部一起來集思廣益，是否現在的定義過於僵化呢？是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面？部長，您的想法？"],["李部長遠：可以一起來討論，像施儒珍這個牆這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是？我想我們都可以在法案審查的時候列入一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間。","再來就是原住民的部分，之前人權館也做了相關的展覽，剛剛前面也有委員提到，除了這個是轉型正義，其實威權國家對於人權的迫害是廣泛於各個族群，原住民也是相當遭到迫害的一個族群，當年國家人權館也做了一個相關的主題展。在我們政院的草案，審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例，但是，如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條，裡面就有規定，在處理原住民這些相關文化資產的時候，都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與，而這一版，我也是希望到時候在版本上面，部長是不是可以一起來支持我的版本，如何讓原住民可以納入？尤其是我們現在106處的不義遺址，都是在花蓮跟綠島這些地方，其實不是原住民主要的生活區域，像鄒族的地方或是大豹社樂信．瓦旦的地方，我覺得都是蠻需要一起被納入的，這部分部長可以一起來支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，我們在法案審查的時候，把它列進去討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長今天對我的懇求都非常的支持。最後一件事情，在106處不義遺址中，其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍，所以法律上它屬於私法人，例如開南商工或者是二二八所屬的地方──淡水中學，但是以現在條文的設計，除非它提出申請，不然我們很難去要求它保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史，但是私法人其實拿了非常多政府的一些補助款，尤其是學校，在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任，所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下，在私法人這些私立學校的不義遺址，我們可不可以一起來做一些擴大的空間，然後讓這些東西可以被納入？因為我認為轉型正義對於臺灣是一個非常、非常重要的工作，也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本，因為它所存在的歷史，就是臺灣一個民主化的過程以及它的價值，不應該不被討論，民主社會是我們最重要的一個生活價值，也是我們所有人認同的一個最大公約數。所以希望透過不義遺址的這個工作，可以讓這些歷史跟價值真正的存活在我們每一個人心中，謝謝部長支持，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}