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\"start\": 359.997, \"end\": 360.077, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 360.077, \"end\": 360.137, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 360.137, \"end\": 360.237, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 360.237, \"end\": 360.257, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,225 --> 00:00:14,055\n請國際貿易署署長\n\n2\n00:00:24,315 --> 00:00:38,954\n委員好部長好我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項\n\n3\n00:00:39,975 --> 00:01:05,737\n那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點那右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情\n\n4\n00:01:06,357 --> 00:01:29,990\n那現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點那這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想要說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個\n\n5\n00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:58,288\n他的晶片流入華為啦那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技那算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前他有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中他是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候他台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上\n\n6\n00:01:58,928 --> 00:02:11,460\n那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度?\n\n7\n00:02:12,422 --> 00:02:36,822\n報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著\n\n8\n00:02:37,022 --> 00:02:37,883\n您說什麼?我這個是不是請國貿署跟你報告?\n\n9\n00:03:02,967 --> 00:03:19,896\n報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內\n\n10\n00:03:20,536 --> 00:03:44,060\n好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是彼特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景\n\n11\n00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:44,920\n另外一個小問題,這個是淘寶\n\n12\n00:04:05,663 --> 00:04:34,702\n那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被土省會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在\n\n13\n00:04:35,743 --> 00:05:03,871\n最右邊因傷的那一個也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理\n\n14\n00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:24,890\n我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告\n\n15\n00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:40,942\n希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點\n\n16\n00:05:41,822 --> 00:06:00,257\n這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。沒問題,數位部有他們自己的清單,但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開,那可以一起也沒有關係,但我希望能夠趕快處理。互相收集一下,然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教。好,沒問題,那有要說明的嗎?還是沒有?沒有齁,那我就先這個樣子,因為時間到了,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n225\t14055\t請國際貿易署署長\n24315\t38954\t委員好部長好我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項\n39975\t65737\t那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點那右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情\n66357\t89990\t那現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點那這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想要說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個\n91130\t118288\t他的晶片流入華為啦那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技那算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前他有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中他是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候他台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上\n118928\t131460\t那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度?\n132422\t156822\t報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著\n157022\t157883\t您說什麼?我這個是不是請國貿署跟你報告?\n182967\t199896\t報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內\n200536\t224060\t好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是彼特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景\n224640\t224920\t另外一個小問題,這個是淘寶\n245663\t274702\t那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被土省會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在\n275743\t303871\t最右邊因傷的那一個也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理\n305300\t324890\t我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告\n325670\t340942\t希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點\n341822\t360257\t這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。沒問題,數位部有他們自己的清單,但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開,那可以一起也沒有關係,但我希望能夠趕快處理。互相收集一下,然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教。好,沒問題,那有要說明的嗎?還是沒有?沒有齁,那我就先這個樣子,因為時間到了,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。\n","txt":"請國際貿易署署長\n委員好部長好我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項\n那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點那右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情\n那現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點那這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想要說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個\n他的晶片流入華為啦那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技那算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前他有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中他是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候他台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上\n那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度?\n報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著\n您說什麼?我這個是不是請國貿署跟你報告?\n報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內\n好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是彼特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景\n另外一個小問題,這個是淘寶\n那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被土省會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在\n最右邊因傷的那一個也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理\n我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告\n希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點\n這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。沒問題,數位部有他們自己的清單,但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開,那可以一起也沒有關係,但我希望能夠趕快處理。互相收集一下,然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教。好,沒問題,那有要說明的嗎?還是沒有?沒有齁,那我就先這個樣子,因為時間到了,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.225 --> 00:14.055\n請國際貿易署署長\n\n00:24.315 --> 00:38.954\n委員好部長好我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項\n\n00:39.975 --> 01:05.737\n那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點那右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情\n\n01:06.357 --> 01:29.990\n那現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點那這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想要說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個\n\n01:31.130 --> 01:58.288\n他的晶片流入華為啦那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技那算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前他有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中他是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候他台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上\n\n01:58.928 --> 02:11.460\n那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度?\n\n02:12.422 --> 02:36.822\n報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著\n\n02:37.022 --> 02:37.883\n您說什麼?我這個是不是請國貿署跟你報告?\n\n03:02.967 --> 03:19.896\n報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內\n\n03:20.536 --> 03:44.060\n好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是彼特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景\n\n03:44.640 --> 03:44.920\n另外一個小問題,這個是淘寶\n\n04:05.663 --> 04:34.702\n那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被土省會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在\n\n04:35.743 --> 05:03.871\n最右邊因傷的那一個也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理\n\n05:05.300 --> 05:24.890\n我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告\n\n05:25.670 --> 05:40.942\n希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點\n\n05:41.822 --> 06:00.257\n這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。沒問題,數位部有他們自己的清單,但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開,那可以一起也沒有關係,但我希望能夠趕快處理。互相收集一下,然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教。好,沒問題,那有要說明的嗎?還是沒有?沒有齁,那我就先這個樣子,因為時間到了,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.225,"end":14.055,"text":"請國際貿易署署長"},{"start":24.315,"end":38.954,"text":"委員好部長好我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項"},{"start":39.975,"end":65.737,"text":"那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點那右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情"},{"start":66.357,"end":89.99,"text":"那現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點那這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想要說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個"},{"start":91.13,"end":118.288,"text":"他的晶片流入華為啦那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技那算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前他有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中他是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候他台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上"},{"start":118.928,"end":131.46,"text":"那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度?"},{"start":132.422,"end":156.822,"text":"報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著"},{"start":157.022,"end":157.883,"text":"您說什麼?我這個是不是請國貿署跟你報告?"},{"start":182.967,"end":199.896,"text":"報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內"},{"start":200.536,"end":224.06,"text":"好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是彼特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景"},{"start":224.64,"end":224.92,"text":"另外一個小問題,這個是淘寶"},{"start":245.663,"end":274.702,"text":"那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被土省會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在"},{"start":275.743,"end":303.871,"text":"最右邊因傷的那一個也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理"},{"start":305.3,"end":324.89,"text":"我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告"},{"start":325.67,"end":340.942,"text":"希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點"},{"start":341.822,"end":360.257,"text":"這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。沒問題,數位部有他們自己的清單,但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開,那可以一起也沒有關係,但我希望能夠趕快處理。互相收集一下,然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教。好,沒問題,那有要說明的嗎?還是沒有?沒有齁,那我就先這個樣子,因為時間到了,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（13時14分）謝謝主席，有請部長還有國際貿易署署長。"],["主席：請郭部長，請署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好！我沒有來過經濟委員會，但是因為之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情，不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在，經濟部不在，所以有些想要追問的事項。","第一個就是因為2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保，我今天有看一下經濟部的業務報告，有特別提到譬如左邊這個供應鏈的強化、核心基礎設施，尤其是這個非紅供應鏈，我有特別看到這一點；右邊這一點是我們現在比較concern的，一個當然就是指我們到底要推動哪些技術，我看到報告有提到這一些，但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情。現在竊取技術以日本來講，2019到現在他們已經大概做了5年的盤點，這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜。我之前是問了教育部跟人才挖角有關的事情，現在經濟部這邊對於我們的技術外流這件事情我想特別追問一下，我就先拿一個最近的案例，就是台積電的事情，它的晶片流入華為，那時候新聞是說有可能是透過算能科技，算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸，因為比特大陸在之前有被北檢查過一次，在那一次查的過程當中它是說這個程序上在申請的時候有一些問題等等之類，那時候它在臺灣有一家公司，那家公司現在停掉了，不過我們現在在懷疑會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技？如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些盤點跟回應的話，因為一定不只有這件事情，而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已，但我們現在對於這些清單、對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想就這個個案來講，第一個，TSMC是守法的國際公司，它一定是遵循法令的規定，就這個個案來講，TSMC有通報美國出口管制單位。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，現在來講就是，因為我們知道美國有它的清單，臺灣也有自己的清單，我們沒有說我們一定就是要跟著美國走，但我們至少要盤點。我現在比較想要問的就是，因為華為被美國制裁是比較早以前的事，我們臺灣現在開始做這些清單是比較晚，我現在看這個清單，算能不算的話，就是華為跟比特大陸現在有沒有在我們的清單上？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我是不是請國貿署跟你回答？"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，請。"],["江署長文若：報告委員，確實如您所說的，我們的實體清單是比美國晚制定，但是我們每一季都會找相關單位來做檢討，您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，因為我看彭博也有講，它說這件事情並不是什麼很大的破口，但至少是一個教訓嘛，對不對？發生了這件事情，畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國，是比較早以前的事，所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下，尤其是比特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司，所以是不是經濟部下一季盤點的時候能夠針對這一點，畢竟以華為來講，幾乎全臺灣人民都知道華為的背景，所以是不是能夠盤點一下？這個對我們的經濟安全可能會有比較好的保障。"],["江署長文若：是，好，我們會來做盤點。"],["沈委員伯洋：下一次盤點會是什麼時候呢？"],["江署長文若：因為我們最近才完成這一季的盤點，所以下次大概要3個月以後。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那就希望3個月之後，我會針對這件事情再來做一個追蹤。"],["江署長文若：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。另外一個小問題，這個是淘寶，大家可以看到現在在我們的捷運、什麼等等之類的，「淘寶免運」這個變得很多，當然這一件事情跟我們剛剛講的關鍵技術可能沒有什麼太大的關聯，但淘寶畢竟是一個電商，電商會有一定個資上的問題。我們之前有盤點了一下，其實淘寶來臺灣大概有4次，一次是08年那一次，到2015被投審會裁罰：一次是2013年港商被撤回登記：還有一次是2018又再用一次港商，這個還在；最右邊英商的那一個也被投審會裁罰了。所以我們現在的問題應該是最中間的那一個，它的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業，但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告，看起來不僅是如此，如果只是有一個裁罰，對它的傷害可能也不是很大，但是它又會掌握許多臺灣人民的個資，臺灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛，所以就這一點不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們要回去再研商一下，因為這個問題比較複雜，因為它一定是按照法令進來，所以我們如果沒有實際的證據，我想我們要對它裁罰可能也有一點困難。我們要回去想一下，然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，希望能夠儘快，因為畢竟它應該就是瞄準雙11什麼等等之類的，那就會有大量的個資被蒐集，所以我很希望就是，接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告，但是不是我們直接、譬如在辦公室針對這件事情趕快來做一下盤點？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，數位部有他們自己的清單，這跟經濟部可能又有一點分開，可以一起也沒有關係，但我希望能夠趕快處理。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們可以跟他互相蒐集一下，然後也請我們單位跟委員就教。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題。部長還有沒有要說明的？如果沒有，我就先質詢到這裡，因為時間到了，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}}