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\"好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 666.833, \"end\": 674.422, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 674.422, \"end\": 674.542, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 674.542, \"end\": 674.702, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 674.702, \"end\": 674.902, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 674.902, \"end\": 675.123, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 675.123, \"end\": 675.543, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 675.543, \"end\": 675.924, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 675.924, \"end\": 676.164, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 676.164, \"end\": 676.665, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 676.665, \"end\": 676.885, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 676.885, \"end\": 677.105, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": 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\"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"瑩\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 753.934, \"end\": 753.954, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,432 --> 00:00:34,829\n謝謝主席麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長梅處長委員好欸署長好那個我想我們就這個我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論那我想要先請教一下那個梅處長喔勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標\n\n2\n00:00:36,442 --> 00:01:03,869\n不是好你認為不是吼好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率吼他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%\n\n3\n00:01:06,684 --> 00:01:10,026\n勞動參與率的分母是15歲以上的民間人口分子就是勞動力\n\n4\n00:01:31,476 --> 00:01:55,160\n好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有有沒有算進去有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是\n\n5\n00:01:57,583 --> 00:02:03,906\n您覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎?變化大不大?\n\n6\n00:02:27,894 --> 00:02:44,063\n就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是\n\n7\n00:02:54,534 --> 00:03:15,539\n好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意\n\n8\n00:03:15,819 --> 00:03:30,092\n好那我要提醒你們一點就是缺工他有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性好的這些差異好那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能不能告訴大家嗎\n\n9\n00:03:38,087 --> 00:04:02,488\n對,跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個供給勞動力供給但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變是所以很多產業的屬性的不同其實它跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素\n\n10\n00:04:03,288 --> 00:04:23,623\n對沒錯所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難\n\n11\n00:04:56,041 --> 00:05:09,402\n那這個又跟產業的主管機關有關對你你這樣講是都沒錯啊更然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題嗎你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難那\n\n12\n00:05:11,585 --> 00:05:28,447\n你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的\n\n13\n00:05:29,594 --> 00:05:56,295\n因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作\n\n14\n00:05:58,217 --> 00:06:07,582\n所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎?我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎?\n\n15\n00:06:09,625 --> 00:06:36,599\n我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該要有這些這些資料\n\n16\n00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:55,777\n那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也\n\n17\n00:06:57,372 --> 00:07:19,064\n也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說\n\n18\n00:07:19,964 --> 00:07:42,331\n如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊\n\n19\n00:07:43,391 --> 00:08:05,539\n那例如說像現在UberEats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組\n\n20\n00:08:11,701 --> 00:08:26,926\n那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究\n\n21\n00:08:30,632 --> 00:08:56,227\n這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。\n\n22\n00:08:56,907 --> 00:09:23,859\n接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會\n\n23\n00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:51,792\n就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何\n\n24\n00:09:53,789 --> 00:10:21,647\n我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎\n\n25\n00:10:23,168 --> 00:10:35,994\n當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是\n\n26\n00:10:44,898 --> 00:11:05,572\n如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已\n\n27\n00:11:06,833 --> 00:11:24,834\n好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益\n\n28\n00:11:26,575 --> 00:11:50,681\n我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的\n\n29\n00:11:52,128 --> 00:12:16,730\n好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解\n\n30\n00:12:18,131 --> 00:12:18,311\n我相信就是說﹖\n\n31\n00:12:33,934 --> 00:12:33,954\n陳瑩委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6432\t34829\t謝謝主席麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長梅處長委員好欸署長好那個我想我們就這個我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論那我想要先請教一下那個梅處長喔勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標\n36442\t63869\t不是好你認為不是吼好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率吼他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%\n66684\t70026\t勞動參與率的分母是15歲以上的民間人口分子就是勞動力\n91476\t115160\t好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有有沒有算進去有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是\n117583\t123906\t您覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎?變化大不大?\n147894\t164063\t就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是\n174534\t195539\t好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意\n195819\t210092\t好那我要提醒你們一點就是缺工他有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性好的這些差異好那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能不能告訴大家嗎\n218087\t242488\t對,跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個供給勞動力供給但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變是所以很多產業的屬性的不同其實它跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素\n243288\t263623\t對沒錯所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難\n265520\t295520\t﹖\n296041\t309402\t那這個又跟產業的主管機關有關對你你這樣講是都沒錯啊更然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題嗎你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難那\n311585\t328447\t你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的\n329594\t356295\t因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作\n358217\t367582\t所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎?我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎?\n369625\t396599\t我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該要有這些這些資料\n398220\t415777\t那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也\n417372\t439064\t也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說\n439964\t462331\t如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊\n463391\t485539\t那例如說像現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組\n491701\t506926\t那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究\n510632\t536227\t這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。\n536907\t563859\t接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會\n565840\t591792\t就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何\n593789\t621647\t我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎\n623168\t635994\t當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是\n644898\t665572\t如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已\n666833\t684834\t好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益\n686575\t710681\t我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的\n712128\t736730\t好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解\n738131\t738311\t我相信就是說﹖\n753934\t753954\t陳瑩委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長梅處長委員好欸署長好那個我想我們就這個我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論那我想要先請教一下那個梅處長喔勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標\n不是好你認為不是吼好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率吼他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%\n勞動參與率的分母是15歲以上的民間人口分子就是勞動力\n好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有有沒有算進去有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是\n您覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎?變化大不大?\n就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是\n好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意\n好那我要提醒你們一點就是缺工他有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性好的這些差異好那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能不能告訴大家嗎\n對,跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個供給勞動力供給但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變是所以很多產業的屬性的不同其實它跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素\n對沒錯所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難\n﹖\n那這個又跟產業的主管機關有關對你你這樣講是都沒錯啊更然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題嗎你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難那\n你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的\n因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作\n所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎?我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎?\n我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該要有這些這些資料\n那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也\n也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說\n如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊\n那例如說像現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組\n那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究\n這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。\n接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會\n就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何\n我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎\n當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是\n如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已\n好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益\n我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的\n好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解\n我相信就是說﹖\n陳瑩委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.432 --> 00:34.829\n謝謝主席麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長梅處長委員好欸署長好那個我想我們就這個我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論那我想要先請教一下那個梅處長喔勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標\n\n00:36.442 --> 01:03.869\n不是好你認為不是吼好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率吼他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%\n\n01:06.684 --> 01:10.026\n勞動參與率的分母是15歲以上的民間人口分子就是勞動力\n\n01:31.476 --> 01:55.160\n好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有有沒有算進去有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是\n\n01:57.583 --> 02:03.906\n您覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎?變化大不大?\n\n02:27.894 --> 02:44.063\n就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是\n\n02:54.534 --> 03:15.539\n好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意\n\n03:15.819 --> 03:30.092\n好那我要提醒你們一點就是缺工他有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性好的這些差異好那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能不能告訴大家嗎\n\n03:38.087 --> 04:02.488\n對,跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個供給勞動力供給但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變是所以很多產業的屬性的不同其實它跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素\n\n04:03.288 --> 04:23.623\n對沒錯所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難\n\n04:56.041 --> 05:09.402\n那這個又跟產業的主管機關有關對你你這樣講是都沒錯啊更然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題嗎你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難那\n\n05:11.585 --> 05:28.447\n你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的\n\n05:29.594 --> 05:56.295\n因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作\n\n05:58.217 --> 06:07.582\n所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎?我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎?\n\n06:09.625 --> 06:36.599\n我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該要有這些這些資料\n\n06:38.220 --> 06:55.777\n那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也\n\n06:57.372 --> 07:19.064\n也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說\n\n07:19.964 --> 07:42.331\n如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊\n\n07:43.391 --> 08:05.539\n那例如說像現在UberEats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組\n\n08:11.701 --> 08:26.926\n那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究\n\n08:30.632 --> 08:56.227\n這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。\n\n08:56.907 --> 09:23.859\n接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會\n\n09:25.840 --> 09:51.792\n就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何\n\n09:53.789 --> 10:21.647\n我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎\n\n10:23.168 --> 10:35.994\n當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是\n\n10:44.898 --> 11:05.572\n如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已\n\n11:06.833 --> 11:24.834\n好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益\n\n11:26.575 --> 11:50.681\n我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的\n\n11:52.128 --> 12:16.730\n好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解\n\n12:18.131 --> 12:18.311\n我相信就是說﹖\n\n12:33.934 --> 12:33.954\n陳瑩委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.432,"end":34.829,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長梅處長委員好欸署長好那個我想我們就這個我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論那我想要先請教一下那個梅處長喔勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標"},{"start":36.442,"end":63.869,"text":"不是好你認為不是吼好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率吼他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%"},{"start":66.684,"end":70.026,"text":"勞動參與率的分母是15歲以上的民間人口分子就是勞動力"},{"start":91.476,"end":115.16,"text":"好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有有沒有算進去有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是"},{"start":117.583,"end":123.906,"text":"您覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎?變化大不大?"},{"start":147.894,"end":164.063,"text":"就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是"},{"start":174.534,"end":195.539,"text":"好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意"},{"start":195.819,"end":210.092,"text":"好那我要提醒你們一點就是缺工他有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性好的這些差異好那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能不能告訴大家嗎"},{"start":218.087,"end":242.488,"text":"對,跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個供給勞動力供給但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變是所以很多產業的屬性的不同其實它跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素"},{"start":243.288,"end":263.623,"text":"對沒錯所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難"},{"start":265.52,"end":295.52,"text":"﹖"},{"start":296.041,"end":309.402,"text":"那這個又跟產業的主管機關有關對你你這樣講是都沒錯啊更然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題嗎你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難那"},{"start":311.585,"end":328.447,"text":"你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的"},{"start":329.594,"end":356.295,"text":"因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作"},{"start":358.217,"end":367.582,"text":"所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎?我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎?"},{"start":369.625,"end":396.599,"text":"我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該要有這些這些資料"},{"start":398.22,"end":415.777,"text":"那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也"},{"start":417.372,"end":439.064,"text":"也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說"},{"start":439.964,"end":462.331,"text":"如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊"},{"start":463.391,"end":485.539,"text":"那例如說像現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組"},{"start":491.701,"end":506.926,"text":"那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究"},{"start":510.632,"end":536.227,"text":"這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。"},{"start":536.907,"end":563.859,"text":"接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會"},{"start":565.84,"end":591.792,"text":"就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何"},{"start":593.789,"end":621.647,"text":"我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":623.168,"end":635.994,"text":"當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是"},{"start":644.898,"end":665.572,"text":"如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已"},{"start":666.833,"end":684.834,"text":"好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益"},{"start":686.575,"end":710.681,"text":"我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的"},{"start":712.128,"end":736.73,"text":"好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解"},{"start":738.131,"end":738.311,"text":"我相信就是說﹖"},{"start":753.934,"end":753.954,"text":"陳瑩委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1334,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長。"],["主席：請署長跟梅處長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好，今天我們就我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論，我想要先請教一下梅處長，勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標？"],["梅處長家瑗：不是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你認為不是，其實這樣講也沒錯啦！勞動參與率它是有區隔不同年齡層的，請問我們25到29歲的參與率大概是多少百分比？"],["梅處長家瑗：不好意思，我……"],["陳委員瑩：其實我們已經幫忙整理出來了，就是91.4%。"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：梅處長，我再請教關於勞動參與率的定義，你們的分母是什麼、分子是什麼，可不可以跟大家講一下？"],["梅處長家瑗：勞動參與率的分母就是15歲以上的民間人口，分子就是勞動力。"],["陳委員瑩：好，在分母的部分，學生有沒有算進去？"],["梅處長家瑗：有，他就是15歲以上的民間人口。"],["陳委員瑩：學生有算進去，那打工的學生也算在裡面嘛！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：都有算？你確定喔！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們的資料看起來好像是沒有算進去啊！"],["梅處長家瑗：分母有算進去……"],["陳委員瑩：分母有算進去？"],["梅處長家瑗：分子就是看他有沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道，就是看他有沒有打工嘛！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：處長，你覺得這20年來勞參率的變化很大嗎？"],["梅處長家瑗：其實勞參率近年都是在上升，雖然整體的……對，都在上升。"],["陳委員瑩：但我是問你變化大不大？"],["梅處長家瑗：就比例來看應該還好。"],["陳委員瑩：我們也幫大家統計了，從93年到112年的統計也差不多2個百分點而已。謝謝，那你請回座。你第一次來備詢是不是？下次表情可以柔和一點，不用那麼緊張。","署長，勞動參與率高並不代表就不會缺工，但是參與率低，對於像我們臺灣這樣子經濟持續成長的國家而言，就非常有可能會缺工，這樣你是同意的吧！"],["蔡署長孟良：同意。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我要提醒你們一點，缺工有沒有行職業的差異？有沒有季節性的差異？從勞動參與率的數字能告訴大家嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為勞參率只是一個勞動力供給的數據，但是缺工有時候是產生在需求的改變，因為很多產業的屬性不同，其實它跟勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯。比如說像製造業，確實有些因為我們以出口為導向，有時候外貿會有一些季節性的訂單因素，這個都會有影響。"],["陳委員瑩：對，沒錯，所以這個透過勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦！"],["蔡署長孟良：對，沒有辦法。"],["陳委員瑩：本席還要再問，發展署目前的主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題，還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題，你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職掌，還是哪一個比較困難？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實兩個都蠻困難的。以目前的分析，我們的勞參率現在主要是集中在青年勞參率、中高齡勞參率跟婦女勞參率，因為它影響的成因非常多，這部分我們也在努力。至於缺工，因為缺工又會涉及到整個產業的發展，未來整個產業能夠提供的一些條件、待遇，還有一些工作型態，比如現在外界也在關心是不是透過一些自動化等等，而這個又跟產業的主管機關有關，我們……"],["陳委員瑩：你這樣講都沒錯啦，甚至參與率因為牽扯到生育率、勞動力人口多少的問題，你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子，所以這個又更困難。請問你們有沒有比較分析現在年輕人初就業的年齡是幾歲？相較於5年前或者是10年前，大概延遲了多少時間？還有不同學歷及科系之間的差異是不是很大？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為我們國內多年來還是以升學主義為主，所以大學畢業之後很多還是以升學為主，以我們目前的分析，大學22歲畢業以後，大部分可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職，確實會拖一段時間。我們也在努力針對初次尋職這個部分，我們儘量來協助。"],["陳委員瑩：現在發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們有相關資料。"],["陳委員瑩：算齊全嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們目前有分析15到29歲初次尋職的這個年齡層，這部分是有的。第二個是他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的間隔，我們也曾經……"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛有特別點到還有不同學歷、不同科系等等，這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為發展署裡面應該要有這些資料。","另外，年輕人剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少？這些資訊是不是應該要正確無誤以及非常即時地發布，就是說也要了解為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作？當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因，我大概就點出這些，如果你們對於缺工的行職業、職缺、地區、工作內容及起薪都沒有掌握清楚的話，你們自然就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動，也沒有辦法健全我們的勞動市場，所以關鍵在於資訊缺乏以及不透明造成問題的誤判，那我們就會落於一直用過去的方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題，例如現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題，一來它的門檻低，再來是非常的透明，連那個人到哪裡了、多少錢都是非常清楚的。","其實發展署的人力和經費都是非常充裕的，而且在勞動部裡面還有統計處、勞動及職業安全衛生研究所，也有勞動市場研究組，為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢？為什麼要捨近求遠，甚至多花錢去指定外面的教授針對你們想要的答案做研究？針對我這樣的提醒，署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是有我剛剛講的那個狀況，還是我亂講的？你可以印證一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：非常謝謝委員，我覺得我們跟委員的方向應該是一致的，我們會依照這個方向來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：你們以後應該好好就近利用一下研究所，他們應該在那裡敞開大門等你們來啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：好，我們會跟他們一起合作。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來我要請部長上來了，因為上個禮拜勞研所發布了一個淨零減碳的報告，重點就是明年（2025年）因為這個淨零政策可能造成上萬人失業，環境部非常積極，他們說馬上會增加兩萬多人次的就業機會，所以就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平臺，彭部長特別表示會透過綠領平臺來推動就業。我想要請教何部長，彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎？您清不清楚這個平臺的內容是什麼？因為看起來有點像是媒合就業，你覺得可行性如何？"],["何部長佩珊：在發布報告之後，彭部長有找我討論，當然我們通過電話，我也指派常次跟環境部對口，就是環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平臺。"],["陳委員瑩：所以他發布之後，你們才聚在一起？"],["何部長佩珊：是的，不過沒有聚在一起，而是電話討論。"],["陳委員瑩：至少有聚在一起了啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員瑩：但你覺得可行嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然如果就綠領型態的工作，相信環境部比我們清楚太多了，所以由他們來整合這部分的……就是針對勞工轉型，他們針對綠領的訓練……"],["陳委員瑩：看起來好像是一個還蠻不錯的創舉。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員瑩：如果未來透過這樣的平臺，真的可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的，那麼未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，它有沒有下到職類媒合，這我也不了解……不是不了解，只是我還不確定，因為才剛開始開過第一次平臺會議而已，然後這個要做到哪裡，其實都還在規劃中。"],["陳委員瑩：我想我同意部長的感覺，因為我們也不是很清楚之後這個平臺要做什麼，也不知道這個平臺能發揮多少效益。我就是有點擔心，因為光是要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平臺，其實就是一個大工程了，雖然你們開過一次會，大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念。而且就算真的媒合到合適的職缺，接下來勞動權益的保障也不是環境部彭啓明部長可以負責的。我就講到這樣，這個應該很明顯把勞動權益……因為他創了這個媒合的平臺。"],["何部長佩珊：所以才是三部會的平臺啦！"],["陳委員瑩：總而言之，缺工的問題是需要跨部會一起來整合、來合作，發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題。"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["陳委員瑩：所以讓民眾了解各行各業的職缺、各行各業所需要的能力及薪資待遇，必要的時候我們還要輔以職業訓練，甚至薪資的補助，我相信勞動部如果可以做到這個樣子，有什麼樣的方法或是什麼平臺，或是什麼樣的網站也好，我想勞動部一定會受到大家的肯定。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我們也很希望所有的資訊都像Uber Eats這麼公開透明，大家一目了然，找工作也比較方便，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","今天的會議詢答全部結束，委員吳春城、委員涂權吉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳春城書面質詢：","1.根據國發會推估資料，台灣的人力缺口在2030年預估大約40萬，雖積極開發青年、二度就業婦女、中高齡及高齡者等勞動力。但面對工作年齡人口逐年減少趨勢下，缺工問題無法僅依賴擴大勞動力供給解決，而主管機關送案申請放寬新行業別使用移工，幾乎也都是照案核准，勞動部長何佩珊10月16日在立院備詢時就表示，「只要主管機關提案，就會儘量鬆綁」。應對缺工的解決手段又走回只靠引進外籍移工的老路，但台灣薪資的吸引力能夠贏過其他國家嗎？若薪資吸引力不足，移工來的人數越來越少，或素質越來越差，勞動部還能做甚麼？","2.缺工將持續成為台灣的問題。要解決缺工問題有三條路可走：","●產業轉型提升獲利與工資，吸引國內外人才","●使用AI／機器人取代部分人力","●善用壯世代勞動力","但現行狀況下，「強制退休」及「繼續聘僱」之主導權均係由雇主掌控，部分有需要或有意願繼續工作之高齡勞工恐被迫接受減薪或其他不公平待遇，致須面對更不穩定之職場環境。只要雇主不同意，壯世代員工還是得退休。勞資雙方退休協商機制及配套措施何時能提出？勞動部提出的退休協商機制能符合勞資平等原則嗎？當雇主對勞方的延後退休拒絕時，勞動部能要求雇主提出理由嗎？"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","一、勞動部勞發署業務委為派遣人員薪資三年凍漲","●民國113年10月16日本席質詢揭露，勞發署業務委外派遣人員薪資沒有跟著最低工資調升的問題，當時何佩珊部長回覆表示，這些派遣人員會等到明年公務人員加薪3%才會跟著加薪。","●本席質疑，部長的說法不就印證，連勞動部勞發署僱用且適用勞基法派遣人員，都不會因為最低工資調漲而被帶動調漲薪資。那麼政府也會僱用適用勞基法的勞工，政府做為雇主不調薪卻把企業加薪責任推給公務人員加薪3%才調升，試問：政府有起到帶頭的責任？長此以往，民間企業也可以推給政府，公務人員不加薪所以企業不加薪？政府不能以身作則，如何擺脫低薪台灣的惡名？","二、外包派遣人員簽定期契約？勞發署帶頭違法？","●承上，就本席發現，這些職缺契約時間都是開到當年的年底，照勞基法規範，派遣勞動工作不得簽訂定期契約，且只有工作業務本身具有臨時性、短期性的特性，也就是所謂「非繼續性工作」，勞僱雙方才能簽訂定期契約。另外，按照「行政院勞工委員會民國89年3月31日（89）台勞資二字第0011362號書函」所釋，渠等經濟活動乃雇主有意持續維持之經濟活動，非臨時、突發之相關職務工作需要之人力。實務上來說，勞動部會徵聘一些職務代理人，那是因為員工因為懷孕生產才開出的職缺，或是農忙時農場的短期工，否則只要該業務雇主要繼續下去，就應該跟勞工簽訂不定期契約。否則只要該業務雇主要繼續下去，就應該跟勞工簽訂不定期契約。","●因此，今天本席所列這些勞發署委外職缺，不應該開徵定期契約之職務，政府不可帶頭做違法的事情，建請勞動部去深入瞭解，於一個月內給本席一個調查報告。","三、勞保撥補法制化","●勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大，但在勞動部努力之下，明年度將撥補1,300億元，總計6年撥補預算金額達3,870億元。既然撥補已經常態化，加上朝野立委不分藍綠，都有委員提案將撥補法制化，請問勞動部是否支持撥補法制化？政院何時會有院版的撥補法案？","●但，按近日立法院、行政院為禁伐補償所產生之僵局，會不會發生法案通過，但政院不願意編列預算的狀況發生？何佩珊部長可以在此用烏紗帽保證僵局不再重演？保證禁伐補償的翻版不會發生？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時38分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}}