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00:00:45,015\n張委員好我今天其實提早到這個議場來聽整個質詢那我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事非常有原則但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標那也期待說這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利的通過那院長我想首先請問你我們今年的國防預算是多少\n\n3\n00:00:46,189 --> 00:00:52,634\n國防預算我們現在有6千多億6千4百7十億那這筆錢重不重要?\n\n4\n00:00:53,387 --> 00:00:56,890\n對,我們不僅台灣的安全,我們還要肩負整個印太地區的安全,我們對國際是有責任的。沒錯,那現在總預算卡住了,請問院長您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:20,597 --> 00:01:22,438\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n\n6\n00:01:36,826 --> 00:01:53,537\n委獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為而且感覺它是事不關己的感覺院長這是您同意的嗎?\n\n7\n00:01:54,568 --> 00:02:13,175\n我非常謝謝委員．跟幾位委員不一樣是你有聽到我們在努力的答案所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的這個議題我們如何來解決那農業部提出的一級二轉三加三那這個制度到底行的如何效果如何請部長來說明一下\n\n8\n00:02:13,835 --> 00:02:29,103\n委員長他講之前我先來講一下一級二轉三加三這幾個政策是行之有年如果他有用他早10年前就有用了他現在用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒然後來騙院長來騙院長說對農業不夠認識我覺得說\n\n9\n00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:51,768\n我跟委員報告部長您是用什麼心態在當任這個部長你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛你把農民當作你的實驗品嘛你當農事所的所長做久了你就喜歡做實驗嘛我跟委員報告\n\n10\n00:02:54,469 --> 00:03:14,094\n委員可以讓我一分鐘跟你回覆齁?我們100年本身如果看產地價格我先講我沒有提高公然價格就可以提高產地價格你會不會有一種感覺農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任不願意顧農民的生計因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責農業部要管\n\n11\n00:03:15,734 --> 00:03:35,741\n他一切都想要把責任推給民糧我覺得這是不適當的我跟委員報告齁整個稻米本身繳民糧是70%市長我請你看一下我請你看一下這個影片我請你看一下這個影片民消人號台下車正常行駛到辦公啊\n\n12\n00:03:37,924 --> 00:03:39,625\n您知道這是誰做的嗎?\n\n13\n00:03:59,492 --> 00:04:18,536\n這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的。這現在在說的是誰啊?說的就是陳部長你。說的就是你。你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。一百年提高了3塊錢以後,我們都沒有提高供糧價格,但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊。院長看完這個影片你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實?\n\n14\n00:04:23,337 --> 00:04:48,289\n所以這十幾年來我們對於農民的權利包括老農的津貼等等我們都有十足的記錄但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了為了陳部長每一次對我的回答我還特別去查了非常多的資料他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧我想要請問一下陳部長這個公糧收購價格制度您是不是不認同\n\n15\n00:04:49,502 --> 00:05:06,053\n我想公糧收購有它的一個歷史背景。當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積,所以用公糧保養…為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積,你說呀?因為那個時候是需要稻米的,但是現在稻米已經超過了百分之二…因為稻米也是我們的戰備純糧之一,對不對?\n\n16\n00:05:08,574 --> 00:05:34,916\n對,但是現在戰備存糧,我們公糧加米糧大概有14個月。我們的軍隊買那麼多的武器,到時候沒有飯吃,誰有力氣打仗?我們的稻米本身法定的3個月,可是我們現在公糧加米糧有14個月。你接著看,你覺得14個月就夠了是不是?你接著看基本工資調漲了多少?59.89%\n\n17\n00:05:38,157 --> 00:06:05,683\n然後動作成本提高了20、將近30%這個是錯的喔!成本的話你都回答不出來!一問三不值!我問你說人工多少?我問你說一盤羊苗多少?你身為農業部長都回答不出來!我跟你講,現在目前的成本只有46%!我告訴你啦!不要再告訴我!我說什麼農民是你們心中最軟的一塊!的確是最軟的一塊啦!就是你!\n\n18\n00:06:08,413 --> 00:06:08,633\n農業部部長\n\n19\n00:06:19,686 --> 00:06:36,894\n公災是公災,公糧收購是公糧收購目前陳俊濟部長他的心態他就只想照顧大農他不想照顧老農,不想照顧小農,不想照顧輕農他就想要做他的集團產區一集二轉三加三就是在鼓勵集團產區你是老農,你是輕農,你是小農與合力是小農一起合作的\n\n20\n00:06:47,699 --> 00:06:52,122\n我只跟委員報告齁,所有的……我現在就問你啦,我問你,我問你,陳部長,你想不想這次總預算通過?\n\n21\n00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:36,668\n你如果想要總預算通過你還在講一級二轉三加三大家都在跟你講公糧收購你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算你負責得起嗎委員我跟妳報告一件事情我們在很多討論政策的時候部長經常提到我們這個政策如果要執行對小農會產生好或不好的討論\n\n22\n00:07:37,489 --> 00:07:53,499\n你所有的親農都來立法院門口抗議了你如果不接受他們就到農業部去抗議了只有你坐在冷氣房裡面一直在想一級二轉三加三全國的農民都在想說工廠收購價格為什麼立法院決議通過行政院不編院長這個鍋你要幫他背嗎我告訴部長說兩者是可以並行的一級二轉三加三你就做嘛\n\n23\n00:08:04,505 --> 00:08:20,360\n你為什麼公糧收購價格你沒辦法提高五塊你提高兩塊你提高三塊你並行下去做看能不能一邊照顧農民一邊完成你的理想這是可以並行的嘛我跟委員報告公糧的一個制度我們會隨時的滾動檢討但是以現階段來講你就是拒絕討論嘛\n\n24\n00:08:25,854 --> 00:08:50,807\n你就是為了你一個人所有國家總預算卡住了我想討論是你怎麼討論你先給我討論啊可以理性的討論齁我告訴你他給了非常多錯誤的資料他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧我告訴你量的確是三分之一但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格這是農民生活的最後一道防線\n\n25\n00:08:55,889 --> 00:08:57,590\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n\n26\n00:09:16,539 --> 00:09:28,573\n反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎有多少農民說哇這個部長怎麼這麼理想哇都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去如果沒有農民你要憑什麼談農業我們已經開了100場那100場裡面\n\n27\n00:09:32,398 --> 00:09:37,040\n一百場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高你為什麼不一百場去教他們其他轉做其他的作物呢就是因為他們需要公糧收購你要花一百場的錢這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高\n\n28\n00:09:50,245 --> 00:09:51,126\n兩點跟委員報告第一個\n\n29\n00:10:05,982 --> 00:10:29,352\n榮業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候往後的兩三年都會造成股價的波動那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定股價這個是他們的理由我告訴你股價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年就是你們之前的那個部長他不限而收購他不限而收購才是真正造成股價波動\n\n30\n00:10:32,194 --> 00:10:55,217\n明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防股價波動的機制再提出一個新的解決辦法我真心建議您接受這個討論就是雙軌並行我相信農民會非常感謝行政院我第二個答案就是說我非常,行政院非常重視這個立法院的主決議這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向\n\n31\n00:10:55,737 --> 00:11:03,286\n所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制那穩定股價的一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事\n\n32\n00:11:13,973 --> 00:11:38,534\n我講現在目前的到座的天災的部分大概是用我們的保險的部分但是保險我們也在討論,今天晚上就在討論是不是能夠加碼?是不是能夠加碼?因為三次耶!他不是說一次,他種下去馬上又吹到,種下去馬上又吹到,要收成又吹到當時在同一個產績以現在的規定我們不能調整但是我們會在年底的時候做一定的一個檢討以後去調整\n\n33\n00:11:38,874 --> 00:11:55,792\n我現在在地方聽到的農業部現在變成農業阻礙部就是在阻礙農業發展各項都是農業部的規定我再講一點沒有人想要當烏鴉每個人都想當喜鵲啊本市也想當喜鵲啊為什麼我要當烏鴉\n\n34\n00:11:57,333 --> 00:12:10,120\n我想要問一下院長,您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎?日本現在是陷入米荒,超市一個人只能限購一袋,白米漲幅60%,院長知道嗎?應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係,因為季節應該會解決的。\n\n35\n00:12:17,404 --> 00:12:45,289\n根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤包括說日本就是廢除了這個公糧保駕收購的制度26年前1988年開始停止這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一所以呢日本壯大的人不斷減少稻米產量也一直在降低這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛\n\n36\n00:12:46,149 --> 00:12:46,430\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n\n37\n00:13:01,853 --> 00:13:18,249\n同樣的思維、同樣的政策,日本就在發生米災給你看了。部長,你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎?沒有,我跟委員報告,日本的案例是在10月底因為他們的季節的一個交替,一個短暫的缺口。院長,院長,你知道現在的我們台灣的糧食自給率是幾%嗎?30.7%\n\n38\n00:13:20,186 --> 00:13:41,615\n三十……你覺得這樣是一個安全的……當然不是,當然不是。是嗎?那為什麼你的農業備在限量呢?你的農業備在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。我們的稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。這個數字是17年以來的新低。我們的稻米的自給率是百分之百。我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量。我當然希望我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。\n\n39\n00:13:47,978 --> 00:13:49,498\n所以本席認為,農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格,已經陷入了不理性的狀態。\n\n40\n00:14:10,049 --> 00:14:35,392\n一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎?一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米本席告訴你這個是你的政令宣導10年前就已經限定說只有28個優良米的這個品項這個品種才可以交公糧收購\n\n41\n00:14:36,973 --> 00:14:43,057\n結果部長一直在汙名化工糧收購制度我想要跟院長講\n\n42\n00:14:45,117 --> 00:15:08,489\n就算沒有辦法提高部長也不應該汙名化這個制度因為這個公糧收購制度呢是農業部50年來行之有年的制度如果你覺得不好你把它廢除啊你有這個尬子把它廢除嗎我跟委員報告齁公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討那在現在這段裡面現在就你考出了總預算你要怎麼檢討你要檢討現在就檢討\n\n43\n00:15:12,875 --> 00:15:12,935\n好,謝謝張委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6021\t8224\t主席我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢院長好\n17302\t45015\t張委員好我今天其實提早到這個議場來聽整個質詢那我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事非常有原則但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標那也期待說這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利的通過那院長我想首先請問你我們今年的國防預算是多少\n46189\t52634\t國防預算我們現在有6千多億6千4百7十億那這筆錢重不重要?\n53387\t56890\t對,我們不僅台灣的安全,我們還要肩負整個印太地區的安全,我們對國際是有責任的。沒錯,那現在總預算卡住了,請問院長您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎?\n80597\t82438\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n96826\t113537\t委獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為而且感覺它是事不關己的感覺院長這是您同意的嗎?\n114568\t133175\t我非常謝謝委員．跟幾位委員不一樣是你有聽到我們在努力的答案所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的這個議題我們如何來解決那農業部提出的一級二轉三加三那這個制度到底行的如何效果如何請部長來說明一下\n133835\t149103\t委員長他講之前我先來講一下一級二轉三加三這幾個政策是行之有年如果他有用他早10年前就有用了他現在用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒然後來騙院長來騙院長說對農業不夠認識我覺得說\n158360\t171768\t我跟委員報告部長您是用什麼心態在當任這個部長你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛你把農民當作你的實驗品嘛你當農事所的所長做久了你就喜歡做實驗嘛我跟委員報告\n174469\t194094\t委員可以讓我一分鐘跟你回覆齁?我們100年本身如果看產地價格我先講我沒有提高公然價格就可以提高產地價格你會不會有一種感覺農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任不願意顧農民的生計因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責農業部要管\n195734\t215741\t他一切都想要把責任推給民糧我覺得這是不適當的我跟委員報告齁整個稻米本身繳民糧是70%市長我請你看一下我請你看一下這個影片我請你看一下這個影片民消人號台下車正常行駛到辦公啊\n217924\t219625\t您知道這是誰做的嗎?\n239492\t258536\t這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的。這現在在說的是誰啊?說的就是陳部長你。說的就是你。你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。一百年提高了3塊錢以後,我們都沒有提高供糧價格,但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊。院長看完這個影片你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實?\n263337\t288289\t所以這十幾年來我們對於農民的權利包括老農的津貼等等我們都有十足的記錄但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了為了陳部長每一次對我的回答我還特別去查了非常多的資料他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧我想要請問一下陳部長這個公糧收購價格制度您是不是不認同\n289502\t306053\t我想公糧收購有它的一個歷史背景。當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積,所以用公糧保養…為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積,你說呀?因為那個時候是需要稻米的,但是現在稻米已經超過了百分之二…因為稻米也是我們的戰備純糧之一,對不對?\n308574\t334916\t對,但是現在戰備存糧,我們公糧加米糧大概有14個月。我們的軍隊買那麼多的武器,到時候沒有飯吃,誰有力氣打仗?我們的稻米本身法定的3個月,可是我們現在公糧加米糧有14個月。你接著看,你覺得14個月就夠了是不是?你接著看基本工資調漲了多少?59.89%\n338157\t365683\t然後動作成本提高了20、將近30%這個是錯的喔!成本的話你都回答不出來!一問三不值!我問你說人工多少?我問你說一盤羊苗多少?你身為農業部長都回答不出來!我跟你講,現在目前的成本只有46%!我告訴你啦!不要再告訴我!我說什麼農民是你們心中最軟的一塊!的確是最軟的一塊啦!就是你!\n368413\t368633\t農業部部長\n379686\t396894\t公災是公災,公糧收購是公糧收購目前陳俊濟部長他的心態他就只想照顧大農他不想照顧老農,不想照顧小農,不想照顧輕農他就想要做他的集團產區一集二轉三加三就是在鼓勵集團產區你是老農,你是輕農,你是小農與合力是小農一起合作的\n407699\t412122\t我只跟委員報告齁,所有的……我現在就問你啦,我問你,我問你,陳部長,你想不想這次總預算通過?\n436670\t456668\t你如果想要總預算通過你還在講一級二轉三加三大家都在跟你講公糧收購你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算你負責得起嗎委員我跟妳報告一件事情我們在很多討論政策的時候部長經常提到我們這個政策如果要執行對小農會產生好或不好的討論\n457489\t473499\t你所有的親農都來立法院門口抗議了你如果不接受他們就到農業部去抗議了只有你坐在冷氣房裡面一直在想一級二轉三加三全國的農民都在想說工廠收購價格為什麼立法院決議通過行政院不編院長這個鍋你要幫他背嗎我告訴部長說兩者是可以並行的一級二轉三加三你就做嘛\n484505\t500360\t你為什麼公糧收購價格你沒辦法提高五塊你提高兩塊你提高三塊你並行下去做看能不能一邊照顧農民一邊完成你的理想這是可以並行的嘛我跟委員報告公糧的一個制度我們會隨時的滾動檢討但是以現階段來講你就是拒絕討論嘛\n505854\t530807\t你就是為了你一個人所有國家總預算卡住了我想討論是你怎麼討論你先給我討論啊可以理性的討論齁我告訴你他給了非常多錯誤的資料他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧我告訴你量的確是三分之一但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格這是農民生活的最後一道防線\n535889\t537590\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n556539\t568573\t反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎有多少農民說哇 這個部長怎麼這麼理想哇都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去如果沒有農民你要憑什麼談農業我們已經開了100場那100場裡面\n572398\t577040\t一百場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高你為什麼不一百場去教他們其他轉做其他的作物呢就是因為他們需要公糧收購你要花一百場的錢這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高\n590245\t591126\t兩點跟委員報告 第一個\n605982\t629352\t榮業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候往後的兩三年都會造成股價的波動那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定股價這個是他們的理由我告訴你股價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年就是你們之前的那個部長他不限而收購他不限而收購才是真正造成股價波動\n632194\t655217\t明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防股價波動的機制再提出一個新的解決辦法我真心建議您接受這個討論就是雙軌並行我相信農民會非常感謝行政院我第二個答案就是說我非常,行政院非常重視這個立法院的主決議這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向\n655737\t663286\t所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制那穩定股價的一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事\n673973\t698534\t我講現在目前的到座的天災的部分大概是用我們的保險的部分但是保險我們也在討論,今天晚上就在討論是不是能夠加碼?是不是能夠加碼?因為三次耶!他不是說一次,他種下去馬上又吹到,種下去馬上又吹到,要收成又吹到當時在同一個產績以現在的規定我們不能調整但是我們會在年底的時候做一定的一個檢討以後去調整\n698874\t715792\t我現在在地方聽到的農業部現在變成農業阻礙部就是在阻礙農業發展各項都是農業部的規定我再講一點沒有人想要當烏鴉每個人都想當喜鵲啊本市也想當喜鵲啊為什麼我要當烏鴉\n717333\t730120\t我想要問一下院長,您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎?日本現在是陷入米荒,超市一個人只能限購一袋,白米漲幅60%,院長知道嗎?應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係,因為季節應該會解決的。\n737404\t765289\t根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤包括說日本就是廢除了這個公糧保駕收購的制度26年前1988年開始停止這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一所以呢日本壯大的人不斷減少稻米產量也一直在降低這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛\n766149\t766430\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n781853\t798249\t同樣的思維、同樣的政策,日本就在發生米災給你看了。部長,你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎?沒有,我跟委員報告,日本的案例是在10月底因為他們的季節的一個交替,一個短暫的缺口。院長,院長,你知道現在的我們台灣的糧食自給率是幾%嗎?30.7%\n800186\t821615\t三十……你覺得這樣是一個安全的……當然不是,當然不是。是嗎?那為什麼你的農業備在限量呢?你的農業備在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。我們的稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。這個數字是17年以來的新低。我們的稻米的自給率是百分之百。我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量。我當然希望我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。\n827978\t829498\t所以本席認為,農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格,已經陷入了不理性的狀態。\n850049\t875392\t一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎?一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米本席告訴你這個是你的政令宣導10年前就已經限定說只有28個優良米的這個品項這個品種才可以交公糧收購\n876973\t883057\t結果部長一直在汙名化工糧收購制度我想要跟院長講\n885117\t908489\t就算沒有辦法提高部長也不應該汙名化這個制度因為這個公糧收購制度呢是農業部50年來行之有年的制度如果你覺得不好你把它廢除啊你有這個尬子把它廢除嗎我跟委員報告齁公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討那在現在這段裡面現在就你考出了總預算你要怎麼檢討你要檢討現在就檢討\n912875\t912935\t好,謝謝張委員\n","txt":"主席我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢院長好\n張委員好我今天其實提早到這個議場來聽整個質詢那我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事非常有原則但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標那也期待說這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利的通過那院長我想首先請問你我們今年的國防預算是多少\n國防預算我們現在有6千多億6千4百7十億那這筆錢重不重要?\n對,我們不僅台灣的安全,我們還要肩負整個印太地區的安全,我們對國際是有責任的。沒錯,那現在總預算卡住了,請問院長您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎?\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n委獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為而且感覺它是事不關己的感覺院長這是您同意的嗎?\n我非常謝謝委員．跟幾位委員不一樣是你有聽到我們在努力的答案所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的這個議題我們如何來解決那農業部提出的一級二轉三加三那這個制度到底行的如何效果如何請部長來說明一下\n委員長他講之前我先來講一下一級二轉三加三這幾個政策是行之有年如果他有用他早10年前就有用了他現在用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒然後來騙院長來騙院長說對農業不夠認識我覺得說\n我跟委員報告部長您是用什麼心態在當任這個部長你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛你把農民當作你的實驗品嘛你當農事所的所長做久了你就喜歡做實驗嘛我跟委員報告\n委員可以讓我一分鐘跟你回覆齁?我們100年本身如果看產地價格我先講我沒有提高公然價格就可以提高產地價格你會不會有一種感覺農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任不願意顧農民的生計因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責農業部要管\n他一切都想要把責任推給民糧我覺得這是不適當的我跟委員報告齁整個稻米本身繳民糧是70%市長我請你看一下我請你看一下這個影片我請你看一下這個影片民消人號台下車正常行駛到辦公啊\n您知道這是誰做的嗎?\n這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的。這現在在說的是誰啊?說的就是陳部長你。說的就是你。你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。一百年提高了3塊錢以後,我們都沒有提高供糧價格,但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊。院長看完這個影片你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實?\n所以這十幾年來我們對於農民的權利包括老農的津貼等等我們都有十足的記錄但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了為了陳部長每一次對我的回答我還特別去查了非常多的資料他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧我想要請問一下陳部長這個公糧收購價格制度您是不是不認同\n我想公糧收購有它的一個歷史背景。當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積,所以用公糧保養…為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積,你說呀?因為那個時候是需要稻米的,但是現在稻米已經超過了百分之二…因為稻米也是我們的戰備純糧之一,對不對?\n對,但是現在戰備存糧,我們公糧加米糧大概有14個月。我們的軍隊買那麼多的武器,到時候沒有飯吃,誰有力氣打仗?我們的稻米本身法定的3個月,可是我們現在公糧加米糧有14個月。你接著看,你覺得14個月就夠了是不是?你接著看基本工資調漲了多少?59.89%\n然後動作成本提高了20、將近30%這個是錯的喔!成本的話你都回答不出來!一問三不值!我問你說人工多少?我問你說一盤羊苗多少?你身為農業部長都回答不出來!我跟你講,現在目前的成本只有46%!我告訴你啦!不要再告訴我!我說什麼農民是你們心中最軟的一塊!的確是最軟的一塊啦!就是你!\n農業部部長\n公災是公災,公糧收購是公糧收購目前陳俊濟部長他的心態他就只想照顧大農他不想照顧老農,不想照顧小農,不想照顧輕農他就想要做他的集團產區一集二轉三加三就是在鼓勵集團產區你是老農,你是輕農,你是小農與合力是小農一起合作的\n我只跟委員報告齁,所有的……我現在就問你啦,我問你,我問你,陳部長,你想不想這次總預算通過?\n你如果想要總預算通過你還在講一級二轉三加三大家都在跟你講公糧收購你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算你負責得起嗎委員我跟妳報告一件事情我們在很多討論政策的時候部長經常提到我們這個政策如果要執行對小農會產生好或不好的討論\n你所有的親農都來立法院門口抗議了你如果不接受他們就到農業部去抗議了只有你坐在冷氣房裡面一直在想一級二轉三加三全國的農民都在想說工廠收購價格為什麼立法院決議通過行政院不編院長這個鍋你要幫他背嗎我告訴部長說兩者是可以並行的一級二轉三加三你就做嘛\n你為什麼公糧收購價格你沒辦法提高五塊你提高兩塊你提高三塊你並行下去做看能不能一邊照顧農民一邊完成你的理想這是可以並行的嘛我跟委員報告公糧的一個制度我們會隨時的滾動檢討但是以現階段來講你就是拒絕討論嘛\n你就是為了你一個人所有國家總預算卡住了我想討論是你怎麼討論你先給我討論啊可以理性的討論齁我告訴你他給了非常多錯誤的資料他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧我告訴你量的確是三分之一但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格這是農民生活的最後一道防線\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎有多少農民說哇 這個部長怎麼這麼理想哇都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去如果沒有農民你要憑什麼談農業我們已經開了100場那100場裡面\n一百場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高你為什麼不一百場去教他們其他轉做其他的作物呢就是因為他們需要公糧收購你要花一百場的錢這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高\n兩點跟委員報告 第一個\n榮業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候往後的兩三年都會造成股價的波動那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定股價這個是他們的理由我告訴你股價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年就是你們之前的那個部長他不限而收購他不限而收購才是真正造成股價波動\n明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防股價波動的機制再提出一個新的解決辦法我真心建議您接受這個討論就是雙軌並行我相信農民會非常感謝行政院我第二個答案就是說我非常,行政院非常重視這個立法院的主決議這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向\n所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制那穩定股價的一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事\n我講現在目前的到座的天災的部分大概是用我們的保險的部分但是保險我們也在討論,今天晚上就在討論是不是能夠加碼?是不是能夠加碼?因為三次耶!他不是說一次,他種下去馬上又吹到,種下去馬上又吹到,要收成又吹到當時在同一個產績以現在的規定我們不能調整但是我們會在年底的時候做一定的一個檢討以後去調整\n我現在在地方聽到的農業部現在變成農業阻礙部就是在阻礙農業發展各項都是農業部的規定我再講一點沒有人想要當烏鴉每個人都想當喜鵲啊本市也想當喜鵲啊為什麼我要當烏鴉\n我想要問一下院長,您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎?日本現在是陷入米荒,超市一個人只能限購一袋,白米漲幅60%,院長知道嗎?應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係,因為季節應該會解決的。\n根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤包括說日本就是廢除了這個公糧保駕收購的制度26年前1988年開始停止這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一所以呢日本壯大的人不斷減少稻米產量也一直在降低這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n同樣的思維、同樣的政策,日本就在發生米災給你看了。部長,你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎?沒有,我跟委員報告,日本的案例是在10月底因為他們的季節的一個交替,一個短暫的缺口。院長,院長,你知道現在的我們台灣的糧食自給率是幾%嗎?30.7%\n三十……你覺得這樣是一個安全的……當然不是,當然不是。是嗎?那為什麼你的農業備在限量呢?你的農業備在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。我們的稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。這個數字是17年以來的新低。我們的稻米的自給率是百分之百。我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量。我當然希望我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。\n所以本席認為,農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格,已經陷入了不理性的狀態。\n一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎?一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米本席告訴你這個是你的政令宣導10年前就已經限定說只有28個優良米的這個品項這個品種才可以交公糧收購\n結果部長一直在汙名化工糧收購制度我想要跟院長講\n就算沒有辦法提高部長也不應該汙名化這個制度因為這個公糧收購制度呢是農業部50年來行之有年的制度如果你覺得不好你把它廢除啊你有這個尬子把它廢除嗎我跟委員報告齁公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討那在現在這段裡面現在就你考出了總預算你要怎麼檢討你要檢討現在就檢討\n好,謝謝張委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.021 --> 00:08.224\n主席我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢院長好\n\n00:17.302 --> 00:45.015\n張委員好我今天其實提早到這個議場來聽整個質詢那我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事非常有原則但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標那也期待說這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利的通過那院長我想首先請問你我們今年的國防預算是多少\n\n00:46.189 --> 00:52.634\n國防預算我們現在有6千多億6千4百7十億那這筆錢重不重要?\n\n00:53.387 --> 00:56.890\n對,我們不僅台灣的安全,我們還要肩負整個印太地區的安全,我們對國際是有責任的。沒錯,那現在總預算卡住了,請問院長您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎?\n\n01:20.597 --> 01:22.438\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n\n01:36.826 --> 01:53.537\n委獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為而且感覺它是事不關己的感覺院長這是您同意的嗎?\n\n01:54.568 --> 02:13.175\n我非常謝謝委員．跟幾位委員不一樣是你有聽到我們在努力的答案所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的這個議題我們如何來解決那農業部提出的一級二轉三加三那這個制度到底行的如何效果如何請部長來說明一下\n\n02:13.835 --> 02:29.103\n委員長他講之前我先來講一下一級二轉三加三這幾個政策是行之有年如果他有用他早10年前就有用了他現在用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒然後來騙院長來騙院長說對農業不夠認識我覺得說\n\n02:38.360 --> 02:51.768\n我跟委員報告部長您是用什麼心態在當任這個部長你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛你把農民當作你的實驗品嘛你當農事所的所長做久了你就喜歡做實驗嘛我跟委員報告\n\n02:54.469 --> 03:14.094\n委員可以讓我一分鐘跟你回覆齁?我們100年本身如果看產地價格我先講我沒有提高公然價格就可以提高產地價格你會不會有一種感覺農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任不願意顧農民的生計因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責農業部要管\n\n03:15.734 --> 03:35.741\n他一切都想要把責任推給民糧我覺得這是不適當的我跟委員報告齁整個稻米本身繳民糧是70%市長我請你看一下我請你看一下這個影片我請你看一下這個影片民消人號台下車正常行駛到辦公啊\n\n03:37.924 --> 03:39.625\n您知道這是誰做的嗎?\n\n03:59.492 --> 04:18.536\n這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的。這現在在說的是誰啊?說的就是陳部長你。說的就是你。你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。一百年提高了3塊錢以後,我們都沒有提高供糧價格,但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊。院長看完這個影片你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實?\n\n04:23.337 --> 04:48.289\n所以這十幾年來我們對於農民的權利包括老農的津貼等等我們都有十足的記錄但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了為了陳部長每一次對我的回答我還特別去查了非常多的資料他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧我想要請問一下陳部長這個公糧收購價格制度您是不是不認同\n\n04:49.502 --> 05:06.053\n我想公糧收購有它的一個歷史背景。當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積,所以用公糧保養…為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積,你說呀?因為那個時候是需要稻米的,但是現在稻米已經超過了百分之二…因為稻米也是我們的戰備純糧之一,對不對?\n\n05:08.574 --> 05:34.916\n對,但是現在戰備存糧,我們公糧加米糧大概有14個月。我們的軍隊買那麼多的武器,到時候沒有飯吃,誰有力氣打仗?我們的稻米本身法定的3個月,可是我們現在公糧加米糧有14個月。你接著看,你覺得14個月就夠了是不是?你接著看基本工資調漲了多少?59.89%\n\n05:38.157 --> 06:05.683\n然後動作成本提高了20、將近30%這個是錯的喔!成本的話你都回答不出來!一問三不值!我問你說人工多少?我問你說一盤羊苗多少?你身為農業部長都回答不出來!我跟你講,現在目前的成本只有46%!我告訴你啦!不要再告訴我!我說什麼農民是你們心中最軟的一塊!的確是最軟的一塊啦!就是你!\n\n06:08.413 --> 06:08.633\n農業部部長\n\n06:19.686 --> 06:36.894\n公災是公災,公糧收購是公糧收購目前陳俊濟部長他的心態他就只想照顧大農他不想照顧老農,不想照顧小農,不想照顧輕農他就想要做他的集團產區一集二轉三加三就是在鼓勵集團產區你是老農,你是輕農,你是小農與合力是小農一起合作的\n\n06:47.699 --> 06:52.122\n我只跟委員報告齁,所有的……我現在就問你啦,我問你,我問你,陳部長,你想不想這次總預算通過?\n\n07:16.670 --> 07:36.668\n你如果想要總預算通過你還在講一級二轉三加三大家都在跟你講公糧收購你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算你負責得起嗎委員我跟妳報告一件事情我們在很多討論政策的時候部長經常提到我們這個政策如果要執行對小農會產生好或不好的討論\n\n07:37.489 --> 07:53.499\n你所有的親農都來立法院門口抗議了你如果不接受他們就到農業部去抗議了只有你坐在冷氣房裡面一直在想一級二轉三加三全國的農民都在想說工廠收購價格為什麼立法院決議通過行政院不編院長這個鍋你要幫他背嗎我告訴部長說兩者是可以並行的一級二轉三加三你就做嘛\n\n08:04.505 --> 08:20.360\n你為什麼公糧收購價格你沒辦法提高五塊你提高兩塊你提高三塊你並行下去做看能不能一邊照顧農民一邊完成你的理想這是可以並行的嘛我跟委員報告公糧的一個制度我們會隨時的滾動檢討但是以現階段來講你就是拒絕討論嘛\n\n08:25.854 --> 08:50.807\n你就是為了你一個人所有國家總預算卡住了我想討論是你怎麼討論你先給我討論啊可以理性的討論齁我告訴你他給了非常多錯誤的資料他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧我告訴你量的確是三分之一但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格這是農民生活的最後一道防線\n\n08:55.889 --> 08:57.590\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n\n09:16.539 --> 09:28.573\n反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎有多少農民說哇這個部長怎麼這麼理想哇都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去如果沒有農民你要憑什麼談農業我們已經開了100場那100場裡面\n\n09:32.398 --> 09:37.040\n一百場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高你為什麼不一百場去教他們其他轉做其他的作物呢就是因為他們需要公糧收購你要花一百場的錢這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高\n\n09:50.245 --> 09:51.126\n兩點跟委員報告第一個\n\n10:05.982 --> 10:29.352\n榮業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候往後的兩三年都會造成股價的波動那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定股價這個是他們的理由我告訴你股價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年就是你們之前的那個部長他不限而收購他不限而收購才是真正造成股價波動\n\n10:32.194 --> 10:55.217\n明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防股價波動的機制再提出一個新的解決辦法我真心建議您接受這個討論就是雙軌並行我相信農民會非常感謝行政院我第二個答案就是說我非常,行政院非常重視這個立法院的主決議這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向\n\n10:55.737 --> 11:03.286\n所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制那穩定股價的一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事\n\n11:13.973 --> 11:38.534\n我講現在目前的到座的天災的部分大概是用我們的保險的部分但是保險我們也在討論,今天晚上就在討論是不是能夠加碼?是不是能夠加碼?因為三次耶!他不是說一次,他種下去馬上又吹到,種下去馬上又吹到,要收成又吹到當時在同一個產績以現在的規定我們不能調整但是我們會在年底的時候做一定的一個檢討以後去調整\n\n11:38.874 --> 11:55.792\n我現在在地方聽到的農業部現在變成農業阻礙部就是在阻礙農業發展各項都是農業部的規定我再講一點沒有人想要當烏鴉每個人都想當喜鵲啊本市也想當喜鵲啊為什麼我要當烏鴉\n\n11:57.333 --> 12:10.120\n我想要問一下院長,您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎?日本現在是陷入米荒,超市一個人只能限購一袋,白米漲幅60%,院長知道嗎?應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係,因為季節應該會解決的。\n\n12:17.404 --> 12:45.289\n根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤包括說日本就是廢除了這個公糧保駕收購的制度26年前1988年開始停止這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一所以呢日本壯大的人不斷減少稻米產量也一直在降低這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛\n\n12:46.149 --> 12:46.430\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡\n\n13:01.853 --> 13:18.249\n同樣的思維、同樣的政策,日本就在發生米災給你看了。部長,你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎?沒有,我跟委員報告,日本的案例是在10月底因為他們的季節的一個交替,一個短暫的缺口。院長,院長,你知道現在的我們台灣的糧食自給率是幾%嗎?30.7%\n\n13:20.186 --> 13:41.615\n三十……你覺得這樣是一個安全的……當然不是,當然不是。是嗎?那為什麼你的農業備在限量呢?你的農業備在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。我們的稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。這個數字是17年以來的新低。我們的稻米的自給率是百分之百。我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量。我當然希望我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。\n\n13:47.978 --> 13:49.498\n所以本席認為,農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格,已經陷入了不理性的狀態。\n\n14:10.049 --> 14:35.392\n一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎?一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米本席告訴你這個是你的政令宣導10年前就已經限定說只有28個優良米的這個品項這個品種才可以交公糧收購\n\n14:36.973 --> 14:43.057\n結果部長一直在汙名化工糧收購制度我想要跟院長講\n\n14:45.117 --> 15:08.489\n就算沒有辦法提高部長也不應該汙名化這個制度因為這個公糧收購制度呢是農業部50年來行之有年的制度如果你覺得不好你把它廢除啊你有這個尬子把它廢除嗎我跟委員報告齁公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討那在現在這段裡面現在就你考出了總預算你要怎麼檢討你要檢討現在就檢討\n\n15:12.875 --> 15:12.935\n好,謝謝張委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.021,"end":8.224,"text":"主席我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢院長好"},{"start":17.302,"end":45.015,"text":"張委員好我今天其實提早到這個議場來聽整個質詢那我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事非常有原則但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標那也期待說這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利的通過那院長我想首先請問你我們今年的國防預算是多少"},{"start":46.189,"end":52.634,"text":"國防預算我們現在有6千多億6千4百7十億那這筆錢重不重要?"},{"start":53.387,"end":56.89,"text":"對,我們不僅台灣的安全,我們還要肩負整個印太地區的安全,我們對國際是有責任的。沒錯,那現在總預算卡住了,請問院長您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎?"},{"start":80.597,"end":82.438,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":96.826,"end":113.537,"text":"委獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為而且感覺它是事不關己的感覺院長這是您同意的嗎?"},{"start":114.568,"end":133.175,"text":"我非常謝謝委員．跟幾位委員不一樣是你有聽到我們在努力的答案所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的這個議題我們如何來解決那農業部提出的一級二轉三加三那這個制度到底行的如何效果如何請部長來說明一下"},{"start":133.835,"end":149.103,"text":"委員長他講之前我先來講一下一級二轉三加三這幾個政策是行之有年如果他有用他早10年前就有用了他現在用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒然後來騙院長來騙院長說對農業不夠認識我覺得說"},{"start":158.36,"end":171.768,"text":"我跟委員報告部長您是用什麼心態在當任這個部長你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛你把農民當作你的實驗品嘛你當農事所的所長做久了你就喜歡做實驗嘛我跟委員報告"},{"start":174.469,"end":194.094,"text":"委員可以讓我一分鐘跟你回覆齁?我們100年本身如果看產地價格我先講我沒有提高公然價格就可以提高產地價格你會不會有一種感覺農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任不願意顧農民的生計因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責農業部要管"},{"start":195.734,"end":215.741,"text":"他一切都想要把責任推給民糧我覺得這是不適當的我跟委員報告齁整個稻米本身繳民糧是70%市長我請你看一下我請你看一下這個影片我請你看一下這個影片民消人號台下車正常行駛到辦公啊"},{"start":217.924,"end":219.625,"text":"您知道這是誰做的嗎?"},{"start":239.492,"end":258.536,"text":"這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的。這現在在說的是誰啊?說的就是陳部長你。說的就是你。你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。一百年提高了3塊錢以後,我們都沒有提高供糧價格,但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊。院長看完這個影片你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實?"},{"start":263.337,"end":288.289,"text":"所以這十幾年來我們對於農民的權利包括老農的津貼等等我們都有十足的記錄但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了為了陳部長每一次對我的回答我還特別去查了非常多的資料他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧我想要請問一下陳部長這個公糧收購價格制度您是不是不認同"},{"start":289.502,"end":306.053,"text":"我想公糧收購有它的一個歷史背景。當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積,所以用公糧保養…為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積,你說呀?因為那個時候是需要稻米的,但是現在稻米已經超過了百分之二…因為稻米也是我們的戰備純糧之一,對不對?"},{"start":308.574,"end":334.916,"text":"對,但是現在戰備存糧,我們公糧加米糧大概有14個月。我們的軍隊買那麼多的武器,到時候沒有飯吃,誰有力氣打仗?我們的稻米本身法定的3個月,可是我們現在公糧加米糧有14個月。你接著看,你覺得14個月就夠了是不是?你接著看基本工資調漲了多少?59.89%"},{"start":338.157,"end":365.683,"text":"然後動作成本提高了20、將近30%這個是錯的喔!成本的話你都回答不出來!一問三不值!我問你說人工多少?我問你說一盤羊苗多少?你身為農業部長都回答不出來!我跟你講,現在目前的成本只有46%!我告訴你啦!不要再告訴我!我說什麼農民是你們心中最軟的一塊!的確是最軟的一塊啦!就是你!"},{"start":368.413,"end":368.633,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":379.686,"end":396.894,"text":"公災是公災,公糧收購是公糧收購目前陳俊濟部長他的心態他就只想照顧大農他不想照顧老農,不想照顧小農,不想照顧輕農他就想要做他的集團產區一集二轉三加三就是在鼓勵集團產區你是老農,你是輕農,你是小農與合力是小農一起合作的"},{"start":407.699,"end":412.122,"text":"我只跟委員報告齁,所有的……我現在就問你啦,我問你,我問你,陳部長,你想不想這次總預算通過?"},{"start":436.67,"end":456.668,"text":"你如果想要總預算通過你還在講一級二轉三加三大家都在跟你講公糧收購你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算你負責得起嗎委員我跟妳報告一件事情我們在很多討論政策的時候部長經常提到我們這個政策如果要執行對小農會產生好或不好的討論"},{"start":457.489,"end":473.499,"text":"你所有的親農都來立法院門口抗議了你如果不接受他們就到農業部去抗議了只有你坐在冷氣房裡面一直在想一級二轉三加三全國的農民都在想說工廠收購價格為什麼立法院決議通過行政院不編院長這個鍋你要幫他背嗎我告訴部長說兩者是可以並行的一級二轉三加三你就做嘛"},{"start":484.505,"end":500.36,"text":"你為什麼公糧收購價格你沒辦法提高五塊你提高兩塊你提高三塊你並行下去做看能不能一邊照顧農民一邊完成你的理想這是可以並行的嘛我跟委員報告公糧的一個制度我們會隨時的滾動檢討但是以現階段來講你就是拒絕討論嘛"},{"start":505.854,"end":530.807,"text":"你就是為了你一個人所有國家總預算卡住了我想討論是你怎麼討論你先給我討論啊可以理性的討論齁我告訴你他給了非常多錯誤的資料他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧我告訴你量的確是三分之一但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格這是農民生活的最後一道防線"},{"start":535.889,"end":537.59,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡"},{"start":556.539,"end":568.573,"text":"反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎有多少農民說哇 這個部長怎麼這麼理想哇都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去如果沒有農民你要憑什麼談農業我們已經開了100場那100場裡面"},{"start":572.398,"end":577.04,"text":"一百場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高你為什麼不一百場去教他們其他轉做其他的作物呢就是因為他們需要公糧收購你要花一百場的錢這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高"},{"start":590.245,"end":591.126,"text":"兩點跟委員報告 第一個"},{"start":605.982,"end":629.352,"text":"榮業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候往後的兩三年都會造成股價的波動那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定股價這個是他們的理由我告訴你股價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年就是你們之前的那個部長他不限而收購他不限而收購才是真正造成股價波動"},{"start":632.194,"end":655.217,"text":"明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防股價波動的機制再提出一個新的解決辦法我真心建議您接受這個討論就是雙軌並行我相信農民會非常感謝行政院我第二個答案就是說我非常,行政院非常重視這個立法院的主決議這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向"},{"start":655.737,"end":663.286,"text":"所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制那穩定股價的一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事一年啦現在的股價來處理這個事"},{"start":673.973,"end":698.534,"text":"我講現在目前的到座的天災的部分大概是用我們的保險的部分但是保險我們也在討論,今天晚上就在討論是不是能夠加碼?是不是能夠加碼?因為三次耶!他不是說一次,他種下去馬上又吹到,種下去馬上又吹到,要收成又吹到當時在同一個產績以現在的規定我們不能調整但是我們會在年底的時候做一定的一個檢討以後去調整"},{"start":698.874,"end":715.792,"text":"我現在在地方聽到的農業部現在變成農業阻礙部就是在阻礙農業發展各項都是農業部的規定我再講一點沒有人想要當烏鴉每個人都想當喜鵲啊本市也想當喜鵲啊為什麼我要當烏鴉"},{"start":717.333,"end":730.12,"text":"我想要問一下院長,您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎?日本現在是陷入米荒,超市一個人只能限購一袋,白米漲幅60%,院長知道嗎?應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係,因為季節應該會解決的。"},{"start":737.404,"end":765.289,"text":"根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤包括說日本就是廢除了這個公糧保駕收購的制度26年前1988年開始停止這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一所以呢日本壯大的人不斷減少稻米產量也一直在降低這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛"},{"start":766.149,"end":766.43,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張嘉郡"},{"start":781.853,"end":798.249,"text":"同樣的思維、同樣的政策,日本就在發生米災給你看了。部長,你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎?沒有,我跟委員報告,日本的案例是在10月底因為他們的季節的一個交替,一個短暫的缺口。院長,院長,你知道現在的我們台灣的糧食自給率是幾%嗎?30.7%"},{"start":800.186,"end":821.615,"text":"三十……你覺得這樣是一個安全的……當然不是,當然不是。是嗎?那為什麼你的農業備在限量呢?你的農業備在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。我們的稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。這個數字是17年以來的新低。我們的稻米的自給率是百分之百。我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量。我當然希望我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。我們一百年都不要遇到戰爭啊。"},{"start":827.978,"end":829.498,"text":"所以本席認為,農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格,已經陷入了不理性的狀態。"},{"start":850.049,"end":875.392,"text":"一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎?一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米本席告訴你這個是你的政令宣導10年前就已經限定說只有28個優良米的這個品項這個品種才可以交公糧收購"},{"start":876.973,"end":883.057,"text":"結果部長一直在汙名化工糧收購制度我想要跟院長講"},{"start":885.117,"end":908.489,"text":"就算沒有辦法提高部長也不應該汙名化這個制度因為這個公糧收購制度呢是農業部50年來行之有年的制度如果你覺得不好你把它廢除啊你有這個尬子把它廢除嗎我跟委員報告齁公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討那在現在這段裡面現在就你考出了總預算你要怎麼檢討你要檢討現在就檢討"},{"start":912.875,"end":912.935,"text":"好,謝謝張委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（16時36分）主席，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：我今天其實有提早到議場來聽整個質詢，我想要呼應一下林國成委員的發言，本席其實是非常敬佩卓院長的做人處事……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["張委員嘉郡：非常有原則，但是也能夠用溝通來完成很多目標，也期待這次的總預算也可以在卓院長的努力之下順利地通過。院長，首先我想請問你，我們今年的國防預算是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：國防預算，我們現在有六千多億。"],["張委員嘉郡：6,470億，那這筆錢重不重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然重要、非常重要。"],["張委員嘉郡：非常重要，因為這攸關著我們臺灣的安全，而且我們整個國防預算如果沒有順利地通過的話，這是不是非常值得擔憂呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們不僅要顧及臺灣的安全，還要肩負整個印太地區的安全，我們對國際是有責任的。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯！現在總預算卡住了，請問院長，您知道卡住的點在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果討論比較多的，當然就是禁伐補償、公糧收購以及健保點值的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是這三個點，針對這三個點，我相信院長也非常重視，想要極力地突破，朝野都努力想要讓總預算通過，唯獨農業部好像毫不在乎總預算到底通不通過，對於提高公糧收購價格每公斤5塊毫無作為，而且感覺他是事不關己。院長，這是您同意的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員，你跟幾位委員不一樣的是，你有聽到我們在努力的答案，所以我們現在可能要加強跟委員說明的就是公糧補助的議題我們要如何來解決。農業部提出的「1集、2轉、3加3」，這個制度到底行得如何、效果如何？請部長來說明一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，他講之前，我先來講一下。「1集、2轉、3加3」這幾個政策是行之有年，如果它有用，早在10年前就有用了，他現在是用一個新的瓶子裝舊的酒，然後來騙院長對農業不夠認識……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我沒辦法接受委員這樣講，說這是一個新的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我覺得說……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，最近3年……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你是用什麼心態在擔任這個部長呢？你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡嘛！你把農民當作你的實驗品，你當農試所的所長做久了，你就喜歡做實驗嘛！你有把農民的三餐溫飽看在眼裡嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，委員，可不可以讓我1分鐘跟你回復？我們100年本身，如果看產地價格，我沒有提高公糧價格就可以提高產量……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先講、我先講！院長，你會不會有一種感覺，農業部不願意提高公糧收購每公斤5元是在推卸責任，不願意顧農民的生計？因為公糧收進來是農業部要負責、農業部要管，他想要把一切責任都推給民糧，我覺得這是不適當的！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，整個稻米本身繳民糧是百分之七十，如果提高公糧收購，只有百分之三十……"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我請你看一下這個影片。","（播放影片）"],["張委員嘉郡：您知道這是誰做的嗎？這個影片是13年前民進黨黨中央做的，這現在在說的是誰啊？說的就是陳部長，說的就是你，你完全沒有把農民的死活看在眼裡。"],["陳部長駿季：100年提高了3塊錢以後，就都沒有提高公糧價格，但是我們現在透過我們的政策提高了3塊……"],["張委員嘉郡：院長看完這個影片，你會不會覺得這對於農民的心聲很寫實？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這十幾年來，對於農民的權利，包括老農的津貼等等，我們都有十足的進步。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是公糧收購已經13年沒有調漲了，為了陳部長每一次對我的回答，我還特別去查了非常多資料，他一直想要把這個責任丟給民糧。我想要請問一下陳部長，您是不是不認同公糧收購價格制度？"],["陳部長駿季：我想公糧收購有它的歷史背景，當初公糧收購是因為當時需要擴大稻米的種植面積，所以用公糧保價收購的方式……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼需要擴大稻米種植面積？你說啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為那個時候是需要稻米的，但是現在稻米已經超產了百分之二十……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為稻米也是我們的戰備存糧之一，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是現在戰備存糧的公糧加民糧大概有14個月。"],["張委員嘉郡：意思是我們現在不需要戰備存糧了，那我們花那麼多錢買武器是為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！我們還是要戰備存糧，但是法定……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們的軍隊買那麼多武器，到時候沒有飯吃，誰有力氣打仗？"],["陳部長駿季：稻米本身法定3個月，可是現在公糧加民糧有14個月。"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得14個月就夠了，是不是？你接著看，基本工資調漲了多少？59.89%，稻作成本提高了20%、將近30%……"],["陳部長駿季：這個是錯的！成本的話只有提高百分之十……"],["張委員嘉郡：上次我問你，你都回答不出來、一問三不知……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：我問你，人工多少？我問你，一盤秧苗多少？你身為農業部長都回答不出來！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你講，目前的成本只有百分之十到百分之三十。"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴你，不要再告訴我，農民是你們心中最軟的一塊，的確是最軟的一塊，「軟土深掘」就是你──農業部部長！"],["卓院長榮泰：容許我跟委員報告兩點，在歷次風災來之後，我想農業部的作為我們都很清楚，他能及時提出一些方向而且執行。再來，第二點，整個行政院……"],["張委員嘉郡：風災是風災，公糧收購是公糧收購，目前陳駿季部長的心態就只想照顧大農，不想照顧老農、不想照顧小農、不想照顧青農，他就想要做他的集團產區……"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有辦法接受這樣的講法。"],["張委員嘉郡：「1集、2轉、3加3」就是在鼓勵集團產區，你置老農、青農、小農於何地？"],["陳部長駿季：集團產區也是小農結合在一起的，是小農一起合作的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再討論……"],["張委員嘉郡：你就是在實驗，就是在講績效！你吹著冷氣講績效、講理想。你根本沒有想過，假設他們沒有成本可以種菜，他們連種菜的成本都沒有的時候，他們最低的溫飽線是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我只跟委員報告，所有的農作物成本提高，但是其他產業方式靠自己的產品提高的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就問你，陳部長，你想不想這次總預算通過？你如果想要總預算通過，你還在講「1集、2轉、3加3」。大家都在跟你講公糧收購，你一個人害了所有的部會都沒有辦法拿到他的預算，你負責得起嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我跟你報告一件事情，我們在很多討論政策的時候，部長經常提到這個政策如果要執行，對小農會產生好或不好的……他經常提出……"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴你，所有的青農都來立法院門口抗議了"],["卓院長榮泰：他是很關心小農跟青農的。"],["張委員嘉郡：你如果不接受，他們就要到農業部去抗議了，只有你坐在冷氣房裡面，一直在想「1集、2轉、3加3」，全國的農民都在想公糧收購價格，為什麼立法院決議通過，行政院不編？院長，你要幫他背這個鍋嗎？我告訴部長，兩者是可以並行的，「1集、2轉、3加3」，你就做嘛！為什麼公糧收購價格沒辦法提高5塊？你就提高2塊、提高3塊，並行下去做，看能不能一邊照顧農民，一邊完成你的理想，這是可以並行的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們會隨時滾動檢討公糧制度，但是以現階段來講……"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼滾動檢討？你就是拒絕討論嘛！你就是為了一個人……"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["張委員嘉郡：所有國家總預算卡住了。"],["陳部長駿季：我想討論是一個可以理性的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你怎麼討論？你現在跟我討論啊！"],["陳部長駿季：可以理性地討論，所有的產業……"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴你，他給了非常多錯誤的資料，他說只有三分之一可以繳公糧，我告訴你，量的確是三分之一，但是每一個農民都有繳交公糧的資格……"],["陳部長駿季：大概50%，大概十二萬多，這個我們都有資料。"],["張委員嘉郡：這是農民生活的最後一道防線，他如果沒有其他作物能種的時候，他就只能種稻米繳公糧。所以我很難想像說你身為一個政府官員，你第一不為行政院、不為總預算著想，你也不為其他的部會著想，你一直想著你的「1集、2轉、3加3」，反而在民間反對的聲浪有多少你知道嗎？有多少農民說：哇，這個部長怎麼這麼理想化，都沒有想過說我們能不能活下去。如果沒有農民，你又憑什麼談農業？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們已經開了100場，那100場裡面，大部分的農民……"],["張委員嘉郡：100場去說服大家說公糧收購價格不要提高，你為什麼不100場去教他們轉作其他的作物呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是因為他們需要公糧收購，你要花100場的錢，這些錢然後去說服他們說不要提高，有沒有搞錯啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們去說服說怎麼樣大家一起讓我們的稻作產業提升價值。"],["張委員嘉郡：另外我再跟院長講，其實他完全拒絕溝通、一意孤行，您覺得這樣的部長稱職嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員報告，第一個，農業部有提出歷年來在公糧調整的時候，往後的兩、三年都會造成穀價的波動，那我希望明年他們用比較精準的方式來穩定穀價跟預防措施……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個是他們的理由，我告訴你，穀價波動最嚴重的那一年是哪一年？就是你們之前的那個部長，他不限額收購，他不限額收購才是真正造成穀價波動的原因。"],["卓院長榮泰：我的作法是說明年我會請農業部用更精準的方式來嚴防穀價波動的機制，再提出一個新的解決辦法。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我真心建議您接受這個討論，就是雙軌並行，我相信農民會非常感謝行政院。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我第二個答案，就是行政院非常重視立法院的主決議，這個主決議讓我們有重新檢討政策的方向，所以明年我會請農業部就現在的機制，穩定穀價……"],["張委員嘉郡：今年啦！現在就做，不要再等到明年了，我跟你說，很多農民沒辦法再餓一年了，光連續這三個颱風，連續三個颱風種下去就又倒了，種下去又倒了，這一次的颱風能不能加碼補助？"],["陳部長駿季：我想現在目前的稻作天災的部分，大概是用我們保險的部分，但是保險我們也在討論，今天晚上就會討論……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是能夠加碼？因為三次耶！它不是說一次，他種下去馬上又吹倒、種下去馬上又吹倒，要收成之前又吹倒。"],["陳部長駿季：我想都是在同一個產期，以現在的規定我們不能調整，但是我們會在年底的時候做一併的檢討以後去調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：你知道嗎？我現在在地方聽到的，農業部現在變成「農業阻礙部」，就是在阻礙農業發展，各項都是農業部的規定。我再講一點，沒有人想要當烏鴉，每一個人都想當喜鵲，本席也想當喜鵲，為什麼我要當烏鴉？我想要問一下院長，您知道日本現在最大的危機是什麼嗎？日本現在是陷入米荒，超市一個人只能限購一袋，白米漲幅60%，院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該也會是季節性或結構性的關係，短期內應該會解決。"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴院長，根據日本農林水產省的前官員分析，這就是日本政府長期以來政策失誤，包括日本就是廢除了公糧保價收購制度，26年前，1988年開始停止，這就是造成日本米荒的原因之一，所以日本種稻的人不斷減少，稻米產量也一直在降低，這跟部長想做的一模一樣嘛！他就想要推行減耕令，他就想要減少稻米耕作，他就在限制稻作的產量，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：維持必要的農產，這個是臺灣必要的命脈，我們不能減少農業的發展。"],["張委員嘉郡：一樣的思維、一樣的政策，日本就在發生米災給你看了，部長，你能夠負擔得起這個責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，日本的案例是在10月，因為他們的季節交替一個短暫的缺乏。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，你知道現在臺灣的糧食自給率是多少百分比嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：三十……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得這樣是一個安全的……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是，但是臺灣……"],["張委員嘉郡：是嘛！為什麼你們農業部在限量呢？你的農業部在盡可能的壓低稻米的產量。"],["陳部長駿季：我們稻米的自給率是超過百分之百。"],["張委員嘉郡：數字是17年以來的新低。"],["陳部長駿季：我們稻米的自給率是百分之百，我們最主要是因為糧食跟其他作物……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們的農業部長只想要減少稻米的產量，我當然希望我們100年都不要遇到戰爭，我們100年都不要遇到戰爭，但如果不幸我們遇到戰爭怎麼辦？如果大家都餓肚子沒飯吃的時候，你負擔得起嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說沒有農業就沒有產業，所以農業是臺灣的根本之一。"],["張委員嘉郡：是嘛！所以本席認為農業部現在為了反對提高公糧收購價格，已經陷入了不理性的狀態，一下子說公糧收購價格提高只是照顧部分的稻農，全體稻農都有資格可以參加這個計畫好嗎？一下子說公糧收購價格收的米都是不好的米，本席告訴你，這個是你的政令宣導，10年前就已經限定只有28個優良米的品項（種）才可以交公糧收購，結果部長一直在污名化，一直在污名化公糧收購制度，我想要跟院長講，就算沒有辦法提高，部長也不應該污名化這個制度，因為這個公糧收購制度是農業部50年來行之有年的制度，如果你覺得不好，你把它廢除啊！你有這個guts把它廢除嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，公糧的制度我們會滾動的去檢討，那在現階段裡面，我們會針對……"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼檢討？現在就你卡住了總預算，你要怎麼檢討？你要檢討，現在就檢討！"],["陳部長駿季：以現在來講……"],["張委員嘉郡：不要因為你一個人一意孤行。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，當我們的面積沒有辦法再降低的時候，我們去提高公糧價格會造成反效果。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，請您好好跟他溝通，我覺得他對農民不負責任，根本沒有要擔負起照顧農民的責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會的，但是我們一定會積極地檢討這個事情。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓的貴賓是由王正旭委員所邀請的德國聯邦議會的議員烏爾曼醫師，還有我們德國在臺協會的朋友們，我們在此歡迎你們參訪。","下一位我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","陳昭姿","李坤城","林思銘","林國成","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","林德福","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-11-01"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00002","1138801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n進行質詢 ─","agenda_id":"1138801_00003"}}}