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0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,311\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民\n\n2\n00:00:29,910 --> 00:00:42,976\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民\n\n3\n00:00:58,664 --> 00:01:16,495\n故意要製造社會混亂呢?這個請大家先來思考那這一次的修法其實裡面有兩個重點第一個是就是在賴士葆委員裡面的提案他說如果首長三個月內未執行的話要來規範他的政治責任要叫他下台那當然先請教啦這個\n\n4\n00:01:18,396 --> 00:01:22,759\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。\n\n5\n00:01:34,683 --> 00:01:51,002\n如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任\n\n6\n00:01:52,023 --> 00:02:05,927\n政治責任應該政治去解決,而不宜在法律裡面去做規定,因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行。這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論。\n\n7\n00:02:08,468 --> 00:02:20,054\n三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。\n\n8\n00:02:36,203 --> 00:02:45,068\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。\n\n9\n00:02:59,815 --> 00:03:07,320\n第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正\n\n10\n00:03:25,071 --> 00:03:41,876\n那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎\n\n11\n00:03:47,098 --> 00:03:52,280\n十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。\n\n12\n00:04:10,871 --> 00:04:13,052\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員\n\n13\n00:04:27,797 --> 00:04:46,492\n三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還突增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去那所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的\n\n14\n00:04:47,353 --> 00:05:03,137\n甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國、德國、加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼\n\n15\n00:05:06,178 --> 00:05:28,975\n他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦\n\n16\n00:05:33,158 --> 00:05:37,102\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n\n17\n00:05:54,978 --> 00:06:15,533\n公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%\n\n18\n00:06:16,954 --> 00:06:33,826\n也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為就2018年的經驗\n\n19\n00:06:37,428 --> 00:06:58,846\n顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法\n\n20\n00:07:00,247 --> 00:07:02,688\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n21\n00:07:16,342 --> 00:07:34,493\n遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了\n\n22\n00:07:35,894 --> 00:08:02,607\n另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路\n\n23\n00:08:02,895 --> 00:08:04,556\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3311\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民\n29910\t42976\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民\n58664\t76495\t故意要製造社會混亂呢?這個請大家先來思考那這一次的修法其實裡面有兩個重點第一個是就是在賴士葆委員裡面的提案他說如果首長三個月內未執行的話要來規範他的政治責任要叫他下台那當然先請教啦這個\n78396\t82759\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。\n94683\t111002\t如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任\n112023\t125927\t政治責任應該政治去解決,而不宜在法律裡面去做規定,因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行。這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論。\n128468\t140054\t三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。\n156203\t165068\t三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。\n179815\t187320\t第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正\n205071\t221876\t那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎\n227098\t232280\t十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。\n250871\t253052\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員\n267797\t286492\t三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還突增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去那所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的\n287353\t303137\t甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國、德國、加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼\n306178\t328975\t他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦\n333158\t337102\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n354978\t375533\t公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%\n376954\t393826\t也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為就2018年的經驗\n397428\t418846\t顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法\n420247\t422688\t第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n436342\t454493\t遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了\n455894\t482607\t另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路\n482895\t484556\t第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員\n","txt":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民\n故意要製造社會混亂呢?這個請大家先來思考那這一次的修法其實裡面有兩個重點第一個是就是在賴士葆委員裡面的提案他說如果首長三個月內未執行的話要來規範他的政治責任要叫他下台那當然先請教啦這個\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。\n如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任\n政治責任應該政治去解決,而不宜在法律裡面去做規定,因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行。這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論。\n三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。\n第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正\n那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎\n十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員\n三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還突增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去那所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的\n甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國、德國、加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼\n他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%\n也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為就2018年的經驗\n顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了\n另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.311\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民\n\n00:29.910 --> 00:42.976\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民\n\n00:58.664 --> 01:16.495\n故意要製造社會混亂呢?這個請大家先來思考那這一次的修法其實裡面有兩個重點第一個是就是在賴士葆委員裡面的提案他說如果首長三個月內未執行的話要來規範他的政治責任要叫他下台那當然先請教啦這個\n\n01:18.396 --> 01:22.759\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。\n\n01:34.683 --> 01:51.002\n如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任\n\n01:52.023 --> 02:05.927\n政治責任應該政治去解決,而不宜在法律裡面去做規定,因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行。這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論。\n\n02:08.468 --> 02:20.054\n三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。\n\n02:36.203 --> 02:45.068\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。\n\n02:59.815 --> 03:07.320\n第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正\n\n03:25.071 --> 03:41.876\n那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎\n\n03:47.098 --> 03:52.280\n十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。\n\n04:10.871 --> 04:13.052\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員\n\n04:27.797 --> 04:46.492\n三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還突增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去那所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的\n\n04:47.353 --> 05:03.137\n甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國、德國、加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼\n\n05:06.178 --> 05:28.975\n他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦\n\n05:33.158 --> 05:37.102\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n\n05:54.978 --> 06:15.533\n公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%\n\n06:16.954 --> 06:33.826\n也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為就2018年的經驗\n\n06:37.428 --> 06:58.846\n顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法\n\n07:00.247 --> 07:02.688\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n07:16.342 --> 07:34.493\n遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了\n\n07:35.894 --> 08:02.607\n另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路\n\n08:02.895 --> 08:04.556\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.311,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民"},{"start":29.91,"end":42.976,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民"},{"start":58.664,"end":76.495,"text":"故意要製造社會混亂呢?這個請大家先來思考那這一次的修法其實裡面有兩個重點第一個是就是在賴士葆委員裡面的提案他說如果首長三個月內未執行的話要來規範他的政治責任要叫他下台那當然先請教啦這個"},{"start":78.396,"end":82.759,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":94.683,"end":111.002,"text":"如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任"},{"start":112.023,"end":125.927,"text":"政治責任應該政治去解決,而不宜在法律裡面去做規定,因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行。這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論。"},{"start":128.468,"end":140.054,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":156.203,"end":165.068,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":179.815,"end":187.32,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正"},{"start":205.071,"end":221.876,"text":"那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎"},{"start":227.098,"end":232.28,"text":"十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。"},{"start":250.871,"end":253.052,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":267.797,"end":286.492,"text":"三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還突增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去那所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的"},{"start":287.353,"end":303.137,"text":"甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國、德國、加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼"},{"start":306.178,"end":328.975,"text":"他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦"},{"start":333.158,"end":337.102,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":354.978,"end":375.533,"text":"公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%"},{"start":376.954,"end":393.826,"text":"也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為就2018年的經驗"},{"start":397.428,"end":418.846,"text":"顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":420.247,"end":422.688,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":436.342,"end":454.493,"text":"遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了"},{"start":455.894,"end":482.607,"text":"另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路"},{"start":482.895,"end":484.556,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時14分）謝謝主席。請中選會主委。"],["主席：好，請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。首先我還是要強調一下，因為公投法是直接民權、還權於民很重要的根據，所以我相信在場沒有委員不支持公投法的施行。大家希望的是公投法既然要修，就是越修越好，絕對不能走回頭路，把它修惡，我相信這是一個很基本的立場。我在這邊還是要強調，因為從2018年那次公投的慘痛經驗，大家都非常清楚，所以之後才會有第一次的修法，把公投跟大選分開，就是知道知錯要能改，而不是一錯再錯。現在明知道公投綁大選會產生非常多錯誤，仍然要把它修惡，那是不是存心要搗亂，故意要製造社會混亂呢？這個請大家先來思考。","這一次的修法裡面有兩個重點，第一個就是在賴士葆委員的提案裡面，他說如果首長3個月內未執行的話，要來規範他的政治責任、叫他下臺。先請教首長的任期，包括總統跟院長的任期，其實都是憲法保障的，立委再大也不能逾越憲法，這樣的法條說要叫首長下臺，是可行的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果我剛剛沒有聽錯，賴士葆委員有講所謂的辭職不包括總統、副總統，我剛剛好像有聽到這樣。即使是一般行政機關首長，所謂的辭職是政治的責任，政治的責任應該政治去解決，不宜在法律裡面規定，因為在法律裡面規定也無從執行，這一點也請大院的委員能夠審慎地來加以討論。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委的說明。因為這個裡面的立法精神，就是如果不遵照公投的結果執行就要下臺，既然立委有這樣的提案，應該要作為表率，是不是也把立委納進去？照他們的邏輯，第一個要下臺的就叫做羅智強委員。因為2021年的公投有一項就是要反對公投綁大選，那時候有412萬的民意支持這樣的結果，結果現在羅智強委員又違背民意，要重新提出公投綁大選，那是不是應該先請羅智強委員下臺來作為表率呢？這個是我針對這一題的看法。","再來，我希望今天還是很實質地討論，如果真的必須要公投綁大選，會遇到什麼樣的選務問題。其實在2018那次的慘案之後，我看前主委在臺灣法學做了非常深刻的檢討，也把選務改革做了相關研究，我也把他的報告完整地讀完，他其實把世界各國目前的民主經驗都拿來分享，我認為對臺灣是一個非常重要的參考。第一個，大家會有一些迷思，公投綁大選是不是比較省錢？我不知道主委有沒有看過，我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢？因為那一份報告裡面有寫到，如果2018年10案的公投分開要花17億，結果2018年公投綁大選花多少錢，你知道嗎？主委，你知道嗎？17億，也是17億，也就是公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。"],["李主任委員進勇：量多，錢就要花得多。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，所以這是一個迷思，並不在他們以為的優點裡面。再來，公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎？大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎？半夜3點半，所以公投綁大選會造成更多大排長龍的時間，我相信大家都有非常慘痛的經驗，全臺灣各地都是這樣。其實世界各國也都努力在解決這個問題，甚至美國前總統歐巴馬提出，要以三億多的美金來解決大排長龍的問題，可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題，所以這都是世界各國正要面對的，結果我們還徒增自己的麻煩，要讓大排長龍的問題持續下去。我認為這是非常需要借鏡的，甚至在世界各國還有因此而產生邊投票、邊開票的問題，這個也是2018年我們要檢討的。世界各國包括美國、德國、加拿大，一樣都有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題，澳洲也是，甚至我舉一個非常難過的例子，在2019年的印尼，他們當時因為他們的憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同選舉，結果造成什麼？他們有三百多個選務人員因此過勞死，這是一個非常極端，但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子。我們真的不希望因為硬是要公投綁大選，造成選務人員過多的負擔，我相信所有家裡、身邊有人當過選務人員的，都知道當天有多辛苦，這是一個。","再來，第三個，他們說公投綁大選才可以提高投票率，我在這邊提供一個例子，就是在瑞士，瑞士這麼一個民主老牌的國家，是大家都希望遵循的典範，其實他們的投票率，公投與選舉之間的投票率並沒有差多少，而且在他們的例子裡面，公投議題的重要性遠大於是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子，他們的公投案中，要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%，要不要加入聯合國的投票率58%，但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%，也就是單獨一個公投案的投票率，可能遠高於選舉的投票率，這個是在分開的情況下，所以有一定要公投綁大選，才能提高投票率嗎？我相信並不是如此，這個都是在世界各國看到的例子。","我認為就2018年的經驗來看，顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點、更多的問題，缺點更多，但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加，所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場。最後也請主委表達一下，對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少？有什麼樣的看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：2018年之後朝野大家共同關切的就是如何避免往後再發生這種選舉的亂象，大家必須要共同面對的問題就是選務的量過重，遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量，所以選務的分流變成選務改革裡面非常重要的點，改革的分流最重要的一個作法就是2019年公投法的修正，把選舉和公投澈底脫鉤。另外，在我們選務部門的改革，從選務硬體設施的改進到軟體管理的維護，都有了很長足的進步，所以從2020、2021、2022到2024年歷次的選舉以及公投都進行得相當順利，所以這個改革的方向是已經看到成果了，我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委的說明，我也要再次強調，臺灣的選制走到現在，民主應該要越修越好，而不是走回頭路，所以也希望在保障臺灣所有選制的公正性和可信度的情況下，應該要審慎討論公投法是不是應該修惡，以上，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」\n案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139301_00001"}}}