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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 529.372, \"end\": 529.472, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 529.472, \"end\": 529.612, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 529.612, \"end\": 529.732, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 529.732, \"end\": 530.233, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"羅\"}, {\"word\": \"智\", \"start\": 530.233, \"end\": 530.253, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 530.253, \"end\": 530.273, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:03,691\n李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔\n\n2\n00:00:23,851 --> 00:00:41,492\n我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?\n\n3\n00:00:43,083 --> 00:00:44,825\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n4\n00:00:57,199 --> 00:01:16,010\n透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投\n\n5\n00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:39,124\n反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:40,277 --> 00:02:02,806\n我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。\n\n7\n00:02:04,867 --> 00:02:11,550\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n8\n00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:46,696\n所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的\n\n9\n00:02:52,048 --> 00:03:20,129\n就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧\n\n10\n00:03:20,902 --> 00:03:39,593\n主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含\n\n11\n00:03:41,134 --> 00:04:03,999\n調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。\n\n12\n00:04:04,739 --> 00:04:30,336\n如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對\n\n13\n00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:52,006\n脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎\n\n14\n00:04:52,707 --> 00:05:01,569\n所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加\n\n15\n00:05:02,233 --> 00:05:25,169\n你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:28,251 --> 00:05:30,173\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n17\n00:05:47,490 --> 00:06:11,562\n修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊\n\n18\n00:06:12,102 --> 00:06:24,506\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等\n\n19\n00:06:40,012 --> 00:06:44,733\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n20\n00:07:07,046 --> 00:07:07,867\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n21\n00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:23,730\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n22\n00:07:44,622 --> 00:08:08,254\n我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候\n\n23\n00:08:08,914 --> 00:08:09,815\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n24\n00:08:28,838 --> 00:08:50,273\n這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t3691\t李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔\n23851\t41492\t我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?\n43083\t44825\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n57199\t76010\t透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投\n76870\t99124\t反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?\n100277\t122806\t我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。\n124867\t131550\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n151920\t166696\t所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的\n172048\t200129\t就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧\n200902\t219593\t主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含\n221134\t243999\t調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。\n244739\t270336\t如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對\n271676\t292006\t脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎\n292707\t301569\t所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加\n302233\t325169\t你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?\n328251\t330173\t第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n347490\t371562\t修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊\n372102\t384506\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等\n400012\t404733\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n427046\t427867\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n443450\t443730\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n464622\t488254\t我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候\n488914\t489815\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n508838\t530273\t這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員\n","txt":"李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔\n我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投\n反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?\n我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的\n就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧\n主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含\n調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。\n如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對\n脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎\n所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加\n你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:03.691\n李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔\n\n00:23.851 --> 00:41.492\n我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?\n\n00:43.083 --> 00:44.825\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n00:57.199 --> 01:16.010\n透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投\n\n01:16.870 --> 01:39.124\n反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?\n\n01:40.277 --> 02:02.806\n我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。\n\n02:04.867 --> 02:11.550\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n02:31.920 --> 02:46.696\n所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的\n\n02:52.048 --> 03:20.129\n就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧\n\n03:20.902 --> 03:39.593\n主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含\n\n03:41.134 --> 04:03.999\n調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。\n\n04:04.739 --> 04:30.336\n如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對\n\n04:31.676 --> 04:52.006\n脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎\n\n04:52.707 --> 05:01.569\n所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加\n\n05:02.233 --> 05:25.169\n你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?\n\n05:28.251 --> 05:30.173\n第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n05:47.490 --> 06:11.562\n修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊\n\n06:12.102 --> 06:24.506\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等\n\n06:40.012 --> 06:44.733\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n07:07.046 --> 07:07.867\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n07:23.450 --> 07:23.730\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n07:44.622 --> 08:08.254\n我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候\n\n08:08.914 --> 08:09.815\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n08:28.838 --> 08:50.273\n這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":3.691,"text":"李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔"},{"start":23.851,"end":41.492,"text":"我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?"},{"start":43.083,"end":44.825,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":57.199,"end":76.01,"text":"透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投"},{"start":76.87,"end":99.124,"text":"反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?"},{"start":100.277,"end":122.806,"text":"我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。"},{"start":124.867,"end":131.55,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":151.92,"end":166.696,"text":"所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的"},{"start":172.048,"end":200.129,"text":"就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧"},{"start":200.902,"end":219.593,"text":"主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含"},{"start":221.134,"end":243.999,"text":"調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。"},{"start":244.739,"end":270.336,"text":"如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對"},{"start":271.676,"end":292.006,"text":"脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎"},{"start":292.707,"end":301.569,"text":"所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加"},{"start":302.233,"end":325.169,"text":"你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?"},{"start":328.251,"end":330.173,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":347.49,"end":371.562,"text":"修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊"},{"start":372.102,"end":384.506,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":400.012,"end":404.733,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":427.046,"end":427.867,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":443.45,"end":443.73,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":464.622,"end":488.254,"text":"我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候"},{"start":488.914,"end":489.815,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":508.838,"end":530.273,"text":"這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時）謝謝主席，有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛說天下無難事，比登天還難，這是你自己發明的金句喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：我也是有感而發。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚。我先針對你那個報告，有一件事情要講清楚，你說公投綁大選，除了選務很複雜之外，你還認為公投事跟選舉選人不應該混在一起，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼會不能混在一起？請問……"],["李主任委員進勇：因為它會失焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天我們討論一個制度的修正、一個法令的改變，到最後執行單位是誰？是不是政府？是不是政治人物？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務的部分權責機關在中選會。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是你，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天任何的事情公投決定之後，執行的人就是政治人物嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這件事情同一時間討論，怎麼會不行呢？透過公投綁大選，讓事情跟人一起投票、一起決定，不只是這件事情會因為它變成選舉的議題主軸，大家要把話講清楚，它反而會產生更強的拘束力。我舉一個例子，2018年大部分人討論的是同婚公投、討論的是以核養綠，可是中間有非常重要的一案叫反空污公投，這反空污公投高票通過，給了當初同時選舉的臺中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣，所以他到現在為止都非常非常堅持中火的退場，對不對？這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處，不只是在一件事情的態度上，民意做了清楚的指示，同時透過選舉給所有政治人物很強的拘束力，這才叫民主，不是嗎？主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是希望在選舉的時候、投票的時候，選民對於他要投票的事項、選擇的對象都有很清楚的認知，有人跟事同時來決定的話，會失焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係，反空污公投大家做了明確的表示，後來你獨立舉人，大家也做了明確的表示，所以你這個邏輯是不通的，人跟事同時討論跟議題有沒有釐清沒有直接的關係。我反而認為……"],["李主任委員進勇：實證上是發生過。"],["牛委員煦庭：我反而認為事情跟人的選舉一起進行，大家會把話講得更清楚，因為它會是選舉的主軸，你不能因為民進黨到最後公投的結果你都不處理，然後你就推定這個東西混在一起，不要吃自助餐耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：這跟民進黨無關，我是就我選務上所碰到的問題，回答委員的質詢。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們該執行的東西都有執行，是你民進黨沒有執行，當然有關係，所以第一個觀念錯誤，我是希望中選會主委三思而後行，當然是合併舉行，它的效力比較強，不只是事情有明確的結果，對於這些操作的政治人物，因為同時的選舉，會有更強的拘束力，這從民主的意義來講當然是一件好事。"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉那種非常複雜的攻防，我想委員都應該是親身體會。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為攻防很複雜，才要把話講清楚，我告訴你，現在的狀況，這幾屆的選舉投票率，四大公投的投票率很低，是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論，過不了，單獨舉行投票率很低，所以無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞，該表態的題目我不表態，反正是獨立選舉，大家頭埋在土裡過一下就算了，我們不希望這樣的事發生，既然有重大議題要公投，就跟選舉一起，通通表態，這才是民主，主委，我講的是民主的精神。我們公投的結果有沒有辦法順利的執行，很多時候加上選舉的掛勾，它的強度才會高，民意的執行才會落實，這是第一個。第二個，你剛剛談選務，我們就好好來談一談選務。2018年的投票亂象之後，你剛剛也講了很多，你做了很多的調整，包含檢討會議，包含調整每一投票所的選舉人數，也就是所謂的增設投票所，你還改善了流程，還加強了教育訓練，這些事情你都有做，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你還講成效斐然，舉世讚美，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：在這6項2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面，它是有強度的分別，前5項叫技術問題，第6項叫不得已而為之，如果技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候，才要去思考要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流，可是你到最後執行的結果是什麼？你吃自助餐哪！前面宣示你都做得很好，然後還是要脫鉤，那不是很奇怪嗎？如果前5項你都做得很好，我們願意給中選會肯定，但既然前5項做得很好，誰跟你講不能綁大選？搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊，不是嗎？要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效？"],["李主任委員進勇：脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。"],["牛委員煦庭：它是諸多方式之一，我不否認，可是它應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候，才用的最終手段，不是嗎？因為從民主的意義來看，脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓，就變相的剝奪大家決定的權利，降低了投票的強度，不是嗎？所以它應該是你不得已而為之的選項，為什麼一併處理了？"],["李主任委員進勇：2018年是10案的公投，難保哪一次的公投合併的話，它會更增加。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事。"],["李主任委員進勇：世界上各國的立法例就有這樣的一種防範。"],["牛委員煦庭：這些事情難道不能用技術方式來解決嗎？可以。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有看到，對啊，你前面做了若干的改善之後，明明就應該再試一次，如果再試一次還是有狀況，那你講我們真的非得脫鉤，大家也比較了解，你現在是試都沒有試，你就脫鉤，那我就講你包藏禍心。"],["李主任委員進勇：人民不會允許我們再出一次的大差錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：你開什麼玩笑？過去這段時間，大大小小的選務爭議也都有，大家也不會否定投票的正當性，對不對？所以你不要自己選擇性的在處理這一件事情，天下無難事後面是只怕有心人，不是比當天還難，何況你這些都做了。以前在修正這些之前，投票率只要超過七成，基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮，但主委2020年的投票率空前的高，2024的投票率其實也不低，有沒有排隊？其實沒有嘛，所以表示你前5項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能，誰跟你講不能綁大選？綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊。我們如果在同一基準上有一個比較的時候，那還有話說，可是沒有，那你現在就是還沒有做實驗，還沒有真正去完成這件事，沒有檢證這5項的強度的時候，你就直接否定了這件事情，難道不會有失比例原則嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：其實根據這個東西，我們委託過民間來做深入的研究，這個問題是絕對無法避免的，就是選務的量達到一定的程度，是已經超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的，這個問題要去面對。"],["牛委員煦庭：你每次都找一小撮人，然後就說我們經過了審慎的研究，它說不行，這個沒有說服力的。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是一小撮人，我們這個有包括研究。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問你要用什麼樣的心態來面對有六成六的民意調查，認為應該要公投綁大選？請問你要用什麼的心態來面對？我們是民意代表，我當然覺得要表達民意。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也不能夠無視2021年公投綁大選被否決這個不爭的事實。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講得真好，我正想跟你講這件事情，你們民進黨最喜歡吃自助餐，請問公投的效力是幾年？"],["李主任委員進勇：2年。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年是幾年？"],["李主任委員進勇：現在有人提議要4年。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，如果你想要繼續講這個，那請大家都支持，以後把公投效力延長。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這個不爭事實擺在那個地方，總是可以作為參考，包括委員所提到的66%，這個都可以作為參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：又變可以參考了，你今天整天的答詢都一直吃自助餐，對你有利的時候，你就講說你看公投的結果擺在這邊，然後我現在講的時候、我打臉之後，你又講說現在只是參考，不是很奇怪嗎？我當然希望公投效力可以延長，但是以前的事就按照現行的法規來解釋，該翻篇了，不要再拿這個數字出來洗地了，沒有這個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我還有一個補充說明，就是2021年這個投票的結果出來之後，到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的改變。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講這話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼，我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候，一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用，門檻很高，他也不執行。我告訴你，當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候，有再好的制度也沒有用，不是嗎？我們要做的事情是讓這些制度可以符合當初立法的精神。什麼叫公投的精神？希望讓人民有更多的參與、有更多的討論、有更多的表達，這才是精神，主委，你不要拿技術的枝節來否定法案的精神，這是我要提醒你的事情。今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候，你就用技術去克服，你要再增加人力、再增加設備，或者是開票分流都可以討論，但在你沒有窮盡這些作法之前，你不要說要脫鉤，這是沒有道理的事情。反正待會法條還會再審查，希望主委到時候做好準備，不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」\n案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139301_00001"}}}