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\"違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 254.677, \"end\": 254.877, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 254.877, \"end\": 255.077, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 255.077, \"end\": 255.297, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 255.297, \"end\": 256.238, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 256.238, \"end\": 256.618, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 256.618, \"end\": 258.459, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"辭\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 258.459, \"end\": 258.599, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 258.599, \"end\": 258.819, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 258.819, \"end\": 259.159, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 259.159, \"end\": 259.94, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 259.94, \"end\": 260.34, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 260.34, \"end\": 260.5, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 260.5, \"end\": 260.66, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 260.66, \"end\": 261.04, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 261.04, \"end\": 261.6, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 261.6, \"end\": 261.7, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 261.7, \"end\": 261.861, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 261.861, \"end\": 261.981, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 261.981, \"end\": 262.101, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 262.101, \"end\": 262.221, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 262.221, \"end\": 262.341, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 262.341, \"end\": 262.561, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 262.561, \"end\": 263.121, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 263.121, \"end\": 263.321, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 263.321, \"end\": 263.781, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 263.781, \"end\": 264.102, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 264.102, \"end\": 265.202, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 265.202, \"end\": 265.342, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 265.342, \"end\": 265.702, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 265.702, \"end\": 265.902, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 265.902, \"end\": 266.023, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 266.023, \"end\": 266.183, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 266.183, \"end\": 267.743, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 267.743, \"end\": 268.204, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 268.204, \"end\": 268.424, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 268.424, \"end\": 268.524, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 268.524, \"end\": 268.664, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 268.664, \"end\": 269.064, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 269.064, \"end\": 269.944, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 269.944, \"end\": 270.104, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 270.104, \"end\": 270.265, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 270.265, \"end\": 270.525, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 270.525, \"end\": 270.885, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 270.885, \"end\": 271.885, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 271.885, \"end\": 272.065, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 272.065, \"end\": 272.386, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 272.386, \"end\": 272.526, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 272.526, \"end\": 272.766, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 272.766, \"end\": 273.586, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"仔\", \"start\": 273.586, \"end\": 273.966, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"聆\", \"start\": 273.966, \"end\": 274.146, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 274.146, \"end\": 274.467, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 274.467, \"end\": 274.607, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 274.607, \"end\": 275.727, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 275.727, \"end\": 275.987, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 275.987, \"end\": 276.127, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 276.127, \"end\": 276.287, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 276.287, \"end\": 276.467, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 276.467, \"end\": 276.568, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 276.568, \"end\": 276.768, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 276.768, \"end\": 276.788, \"score\": 0.996}]}, {\"start\": 277.728, \"end\": 284.274, \"text\": \"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 277.728, \"end\": 277.908, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 277.908, \"end\": 278.008, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 278.008, \"end\": 278.088, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"羅\"}, {\"word\": \"智\", \"start\": 278.088, \"end\": 278.188, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 278.188, \"end\": 278.209, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 278.209, \"end\": 278.349, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 278.349, \"end\": 278.589, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \":\"}, {\"word\": \"「\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 278.589, \"end\": 278.749, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 278.749, \"end\": 278.929, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 278.929, \"end\": 279.069, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 279.069, \"end\": 280.03, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 280.03, \"end\": 280.23, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 280.23, \"end\": 280.491, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 280.491, \"end\": 280.571, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 280.571, \"end\": 280.611, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 280.611, \"end\": 280.811, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 280.811, \"end\": 280.971, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 280.971, 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\"民\", \"start\": 282.993, \"end\": 283.133, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 283.133, \"end\": 283.273, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 283.273, \"end\": 283.494, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 283.494, \"end\": 283.594, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 283.594, \"end\": 283.614, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 283.614, \"end\": 283.634, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 283.634, \"end\": 283.654, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 283.654, \"end\": 283.854, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 283.854, \"end\": 284.054, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 284.054, \"end\": 284.194, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 284.194, \"end\": 284.254, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 284.254, \"end\": 284.274, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 297.438, \"end\": 323.174, \"text\": \"我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 297.438, \"end\": 297.578, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 297.578, \"end\": 297.798, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 297.798, \"end\": 297.998, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 297.998, \"end\": 298.078, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 298.078, \"end\": 298.439, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 298.439, \"end\": 298.679, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 298.679, \"end\": 300.1, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 300.1, \"end\": 300.28, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 300.28, \"end\": 300.66, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 300.66, \"end\": 300.88, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 300.88, \"end\": 301.02, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 301.02, \"end\": 301.34, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 301.34, \"end\": 302.181, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 302.181, \"end\": 302.481, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 302.481, \"end\": 302.921, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 302.921, \"end\": 303.101, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 303.101, \"end\": 303.242, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 303.242, \"end\": 304.022, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 304.022, \"end\": 304.302, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 304.302, \"end\": 304.402, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 304.402, \"end\": 305.483, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", 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877.497, \"end\": 877.517, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,956 --> 00:00:08,612\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n2\n00:00:16,050 --> 00:00:17,171\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n\n3\n00:00:40,612 --> 00:01:04,753\n公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,借了比較好的設計,\n\n4\n00:01:06,906 --> 00:01:34,625\n去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的權責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法\n\n5\n00:01:36,275 --> 00:01:48,293\n我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛對不對\n\n6\n00:01:49,944 --> 00:01:57,571\n中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。\n\n7\n00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:37,191\n在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是\n\n8\n00:02:38,412 --> 00:03:00,131\n2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩\n\n9\n00:03:01,372 --> 00:03:21,043\n再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:22,182 --> 00:03:45,897\n我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初\n\n11\n00:03:49,045 --> 00:04:11,561\n公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個\n\n12\n00:04:14,677 --> 00:04:36,788\n違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕\n\n13\n00:04:37,728 --> 00:04:44,274\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。\n\n14\n00:04:57,438 --> 00:05:23,174\n我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職\n\n15\n00:05:26,445 --> 00:05:27,531\n第三十條條文修正草案案。\n\n16\n00:05:32,540 --> 00:06:00,368\n在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊\n\n17\n00:06:01,345 --> 00:06:24,364\n我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?\n\n18\n00:06:26,281 --> 00:06:39,010\n如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分\n\n19\n00:06:40,543 --> 00:07:09,101\n你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程\n\n20\n00:07:09,701 --> 00:07:11,882\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n\n21\n00:07:31,391 --> 00:07:40,937\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n22\n00:07:49,946 --> 00:08:17,392\n各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是\n\n23\n00:08:20,728 --> 00:08:23,570\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n24\n00:08:50,888 --> 00:08:51,629\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n\n25\n00:09:04,863 --> 00:09:25,828\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條\n\n26\n00:09:31,701 --> 00:09:51,130\n他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反\n\n27\n00:09:52,410 --> 00:10:15,958\n對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?\n\n28\n00:10:17,405 --> 00:10:36,726\n剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔\n\n29\n00:10:37,486 --> 00:10:51,952\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n30\n00:11:07,537 --> 00:11:29,191\n他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。\n\n31\n00:11:31,616 --> 00:11:55,849\n被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔\n\n32\n00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:18,613\n如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了\n\n33\n00:12:20,489 --> 00:12:35,735\n選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有\n\n34\n00:12:36,578 --> 00:12:50,719\n對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有\n\n35\n00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:52,060\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n36\n00:13:07,179 --> 00:13:07,980\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n37\n00:13:27,799 --> 00:13:46,281\n上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎\n\n38\n00:13:49,175 --> 00:14:03,906\n中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔\n\n39\n00:14:14,541 --> 00:14:34,381\n維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!\n\n40\n00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:37,517\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5956\t8612\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n16050\t17171\t三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n40612\t64753\t公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,借了比較好的設計,\n66906\t94625\t去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的權責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法\n96275\t108293\t我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛 對不對\n109944\t117571\t中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。\n128360\t157191\t在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是\n158412\t180131\t2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩\n181372\t201043\t再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼\n202182\t225897\t我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初\n229045\t251561\t公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個\n254677\t276788\t違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕\n277728\t284274\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。\n297438\t323174\t我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職\n326445\t327531\t第三十條條文修正草案案。\n332540\t360368\t在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊\n361345\t384364\t我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?\n386281\t399010\t如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分\n400543\t429101\t你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程\n429701\t431882\t第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n451391\t460937\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。\n469946\t497392\t各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是\n500728\t503570\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n530888\t531629\t三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n544863\t565828\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條\n571701\t591130\t他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反\n592410\t615958\t對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?\n617405\t636726\t剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔\n637486\t651952\t三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n667537\t689191\t他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。\n691616\t715849\t被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔\n716960\t738613\t如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了\n740489\t755735\t選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有\n756578\t770719\t對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有\n771460\t772060\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n787179\t787980\t三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n807799\t826281\t上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎\n829175\t843906\t中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔\n854541\t874381\t維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!\n875236\t877517\t第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n","txt":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,借了比較好的設計,\n去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的權責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法\n我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛 對不對\n中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。\n在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是\n2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩\n再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼\n我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初\n公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個\n違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。\n我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職\n第三十條條文修正草案案。\n在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊\n我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?\n如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分\n你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。\n各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條\n他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反\n對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?\n剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。\n被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔\n如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了\n選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有\n對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎\n中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔\n維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.956 --> 00:08.612\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n00:16.050 --> 00:17.171\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n\n00:40.612 --> 01:04.753\n公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,借了比較好的設計,\n\n01:06.906 --> 01:34.625\n去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的權責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法\n\n01:36.275 --> 01:48.293\n我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛對不對\n\n01:49.944 --> 01:57.571\n中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。\n\n02:08.360 --> 02:37.191\n在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是\n\n02:38.412 --> 03:00.131\n2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩\n\n03:01.372 --> 03:21.043\n再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼\n\n03:22.182 --> 03:45.897\n我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初\n\n03:49.045 --> 04:11.561\n公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個\n\n04:14.677 --> 04:36.788\n違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕\n\n04:37.728 --> 04:44.274\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。\n\n04:57.438 --> 05:23.174\n我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職\n\n05:26.445 --> 05:27.531\n第三十條條文修正草案案。\n\n05:32.540 --> 06:00.368\n在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊\n\n06:01.345 --> 06:24.364\n我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?\n\n06:26.281 --> 06:39.010\n如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分\n\n06:40.543 --> 07:09.101\n你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程\n\n07:09.701 --> 07:11.882\n第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具\n\n07:31.391 --> 07:40.937\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n07:49.946 --> 08:17.392\n各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是\n\n08:20.728 --> 08:23.570\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n08:50.888 --> 08:51.629\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具\n\n09:04.863 --> 09:25.828\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條\n\n09:31.701 --> 09:51.130\n他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反\n\n09:52.410 --> 10:15.958\n對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?\n\n10:17.405 --> 10:36.726\n剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔\n\n10:37.486 --> 10:51.952\n三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n11:07.537 --> 11:29.191\n他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。\n\n11:31.616 --> 11:55.849\n被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔\n\n11:56.960 --> 12:18.613\n如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了\n\n12:20.489 --> 12:35.735\n選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有\n\n12:36.578 --> 12:50.719\n對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有\n\n12:51.460 --> 12:52.060\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n13:07.179 --> 13:07.980\n三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n13:27.799 --> 13:46.281\n上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎\n\n13:49.175 --> 14:03.906\n中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔\n\n14:14.541 --> 14:34.381\n維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!\n\n14:35.236 --> 14:37.517\n第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.956,"end":8.612,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":16.05,"end":17.171,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":40.612,"end":64.753,"text":"公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,借了比較好的設計,"},{"start":66.906,"end":94.625,"text":"去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的權責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法"},{"start":96.275,"end":108.293,"text":"我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛 對不對"},{"start":109.944,"end":117.571,"text":"中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。"},{"start":128.36,"end":157.191,"text":"在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是"},{"start":158.412,"end":180.131,"text":"2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩"},{"start":181.372,"end":201.043,"text":"再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼"},{"start":202.182,"end":225.897,"text":"我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初"},{"start":229.045,"end":251.561,"text":"公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個"},{"start":254.677,"end":276.788,"text":"違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕"},{"start":277.728,"end":284.274,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":297.438,"end":323.174,"text":"我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職"},{"start":326.445,"end":327.531,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":332.54,"end":360.368,"text":"在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊"},{"start":361.345,"end":384.364,"text":"我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":386.281,"end":399.01,"text":"如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分"},{"start":400.543,"end":429.101,"text":"你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程"},{"start":429.701,"end":431.882,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":451.391,"end":460.937,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":469.946,"end":497.392,"text":"各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是"},{"start":500.728,"end":503.57,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":530.888,"end":531.629,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":544.863,"end":565.828,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":571.701,"end":591.13,"text":"他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反"},{"start":592.41,"end":615.958,"text":"對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?"},{"start":617.405,"end":636.726,"text":"剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔"},{"start":637.486,"end":651.952,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":667.537,"end":689.191,"text":"他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。"},{"start":691.616,"end":715.849,"text":"被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔"},{"start":716.96,"end":738.613,"text":"如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了"},{"start":740.489,"end":755.735,"text":"選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有"},{"start":756.578,"end":770.719,"text":"對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有"},{"start":771.46,"end":772.06,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":787.179,"end":787.98,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":807.799,"end":826.281,"text":"上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎"},{"start":829.175,"end":843.906,"text":"中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔"},{"start":854.541,"end":874.381,"text":"維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!"},{"start":875.236,"end":877.517,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1331,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。美國的大選大家都很關心，11月5號就要舉行了，主委知不知道，11月5號除了他們選總統、參議員、眾議員之外，各州都有不少公投案，你知道嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他們的選舉跟公投是不是合併舉行？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以在政策的立場上，公投跟選舉合併舉行有助於人民行使他的權利，在另外一方面，中選會考慮的是選務的負擔，主委，你都報告過了嘛！作為立法者，我們要做的決定是，這兩件事情放在天平的兩端孰輕孰重，我們有沒有可能藉由比較好的設計去減低行政上面的負擔，去促進人民對於憲法所保障公民權利的行使，這個是委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題，這個是修法的權責，主管機關的意見我們都聽到了，會納入我們立法上面的考慮，每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺，我也不會要求主委要表態，因為你有你的看法，國會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體，我們要做最後一個決定，我相信對於立法的結果，中選會一定會尊重嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會要依法執行。"],["黃委員國昌：是，當然要依法執行嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在立法修法的過程裡面，我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：您非常勇敢啦！您書面、口頭都很勇敢的說明了。"],["李主任委員進勇：我要說出我們行政機關的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我全部都聆聽到了啦！臺灣在民主深化的過程當中，在民主深化的過程當中，什麼是走回頭路？這件事情每個人心裡有一把尺，在您的心裡認為公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路，剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候，你有做這樣的意見表達。"],["李主任委員進勇：我接任中選會主委的時候，公投是綁大選。"],["黃委員國昌：我要跟主委說的是什麼？我要跟主委說的是，2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間，提案當天沒有經過委員會討論，直接逕付二讀，冷凍30天以後強行表決，30天、30天喔！把非常多我們民主的前輩在推動公投法、補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠，當然，從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場，他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史，所以他們的立場改變，這個我尊重，這個我尊重。但我要說的事情是什麼？我要說的事情是，在我心裡面，2019年那才是走回頭路，鎖回鳥籠公投法才是真的走回頭路，當然主委你有不一樣的看法，我也尊重啦！但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責，要共同決定的事情，包括我們的總統賴清德，當初公投跟選舉要合併舉行，這是我們賴總統在當立委時候的信念，當初的提案，他也是大力的倡議，當然嘛！可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變，會改變的還包括什麼？來，我再帶主委看一下，主委你說違反公投選舉的結果應辭職，這應該是政治責任，不應該是法律責任，這個也是主委您的看法嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！剛剛甚至有委員說，提這個案子的委員是不想負責任，因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後，我覺得非常的害怕，他做這麼強烈的指控，說提這種法律案的委員只是想要別人負責任，自己不想負責任，我對於這樣的說法，我沒辦法接受，我為什麼沒辦法接受？我跟主委報告，當初賴清德提過一模一樣的案子，我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候，他會提這個法律案絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任，他只是想要別人負責任，我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正，釋放鳥籠公投，甚至說什麼？違反公投的結果，權責機關的首長應立即辭職，他當初在提這個案子的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子行得通嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！行得通……"],["李主任委員進勇：在法理上是講不通的。"],["黃委員國昌：行得通、行不通，我們到逐條的時候，大家再來討論，但我要駁斥的是什麼？我要駁斥的是民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想，指責現在提案的委員不想負責任，所以嘛……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，現在是針對中選會的答詢。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對，等一下馬上要由你回答的事情，請你不要急！因為我覺得道理要講清楚，我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任，所以才提這種案子嗎？我個人認為並不是如此，但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是，你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛！是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：現在結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是最近，可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人……"],["黃委員國昌：不是只有一位啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：21個人的案子。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：最後結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：是不起訴處分。"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我第一點要講的，就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定，我們予以尊重。第二點，但是我們也深覺遺憾，我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢？因為我認為選舉是民主國家非常重要的一個工程，選舉的成敗攸關到整個民主的進程，所以我的意思是，任何國民對於牽涉到國家社會重大法益，選舉的公正性是一個重大的法益，你要對這個法益提出挑戰、質疑的時候，應該負比一般人更大的注意義務，而我們所提告的這些人對相同的議題，在選前我們一再的透過各種方式來做說明、來做澄清，他們還是沒有盡到這個義務，我們覺得非常的遺憾。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我請教一下主委，這次大選的選務有沒有疏失？"],["李主任委員進勇：個別的疏失當然是有，沒有辦法……"],["黃委員國昌：人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有做過說明的、做過澄清的，有些甚至於是無中生有的，都有這種狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，中選會代表上面是怎麼講的，你們的告訴代理人偵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業之情形，這個是你們的告訴代理人講的，這不是我說的。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個跟他的不起訴處分、跟這個行為人他所為的言論是不是有對接、有關係，看不出來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我就直接跟你講，來、來、來……"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有否認，我沒有否認，選務會有瑕疵……"],["黃委員國昌：請主委看一下，我剛唸的那個文字全部都是不起訴處分書上面寫的，結果你今天在臺上跟我講說跟不起訴有沒有關係，主委，白紙黑字耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們提告的……"],["黃委員國昌：你要不要再看一次？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道、我知道，我不是這邊才來看，我之前就看了，就是說那個還必須要做清楚的界定，是不是可以接起來？"],["黃委員國昌：所以中選會要不要提再議？你要不要聲請再議？"],["李主任委員進勇：我目前並沒有準備要提再議，我想透過這樣子事件，大家共同檢討反省，有助於整個事件、有助於民主往良性發展。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！當你的選務出現疏失，連你們的告訴代理人都承認，你把21個人民推到檢察官那邊，歷經了司法程序，他們所受的痛苦、他們歷經了勞力、時間、費用的浪費，結果今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講，你的意思是說……"],["李主任委員進勇：我有話要講……"],["黃委員國昌：你們21個人被我中選會移送，剛好而已啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我要講的話剛剛已經講過了，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就說嘛！你今天的立場是不是21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：對於違反國家社會重大法益的事項應該要負更高的注意義務。"],["黃委員國昌：所以，你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嘛？就算檢察官不起訴處分，這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力、所承受的痛苦，從中選會的立場來講剛好而已，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：「剛好而已」我是不會用，因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣，我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，我再說一次，中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票之情形，這是客觀的事實，這是你們自己講的哦！第二個……"],["李主任委員進勇：跟我們移送的行為是不是有對接的關係，這個非常重要。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那你就勇敢地挑戰，說這個檢察官不起訴處分亂寫，跟我移送行為沒有對接關係……"],["李主任委員進勇：遺憾，我們覺得遺憾。"],["黃委員國昌：竟然在不起訴處分書裡面這樣記載，這個檢察官亂寫，法務部要澈底地檢討，那你就勇敢講這句話嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我不會這樣子講啦，委員可以這樣子講，我做中選會的主委不可以這樣講。"],["黃委員國昌：他們所質疑的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？他們所在質疑的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有些是做過度的延伸。"],["黃委員國昌：請你回答問題，他的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有每一件都看。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請你自己看，我白紙黑字也貼在上面，這是不起訴處分書上面寫的，被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論，沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是轉貼就完全可以撇清責任，你要轉貼，你就知道有很多人可以去聽、可以去看，對整個事件的真相是不是有所模糊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以重點是那個影帶是不是有被變造、是不是有被偽造，今天如果有人偽造、變造影帶去誣衊我們的選務同仁，我跟主委報告，我們大家一定共同譴責，太過分了！但問題是什麼？問題今天調查的結果出來，那些影帶完全沒有偽造、變造，完全沒有偽造、變造啊，然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了，選務的確有問題，最後做出了不起訴處分，您作為中選會的主委，連跟這21個人說不好意思，讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序，你連這個格局都沒有。"],["李主任委員進勇：對於國家社會重大法益所受到的侵害，大家應該要共同地面對，問題不在於我要不要表示歉意，而是對整個社會、對民主的重大傷害。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛！選務有沒有缺失嘛，有還是沒有？有還是沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：我從來沒有說沒有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：但是有沒有因果關係……"],["黃委員國昌：當選務有缺失的時候，人家提出質疑……"],["李主任委員進勇：你不能咬著這句話……"],["黃委員國昌：你中選會的作法是把人家移送法辦，現在不起訴處分做出來了，你一樣在那邊拗！"],["李主任委員進勇：要共同面對這樣的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所謂的共同面對是什麼？你們坐在辦公室裡面吹冷氣，人家去接受檢察官的拷問，這個叫共同面對喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有在吹冷氣，我們還是在辦選務。"],["黃委員國昌：3月自己就承認選務有瑕疵了，上一次在這邊問的時候，你自己就承認了，對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有，一句sorry都沒有！"],["李主任委員進勇：一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平。"],["黃委員國昌：所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑啊，這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎？中選會選務有瑕疵，公民不能質疑，你敢質疑，我把你移送法辦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這樣子論述太簡單了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊，我靜候你精彩的論述……"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是一個國會議員的簡單論述。"],["黃委員國昌：我靜候你精彩的論述啦，我靜候你精彩的論述啊！你們澈底地被打臉了，今天還站在這邊硬拗喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：維護國家社會的法益，這是中選會的責任。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛！就活該嘛，被你們中選會移送，活該而已啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴，沒有幫助，根本沒有幫助。"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛，那你就把選務做好就好了嘛，請你把選務做好，你選務沒有做好，人民提出質疑，結果接下來的下場是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：大家都是共同期待。"],["黃委員國昌：被你移送法辦喔？這是我們中選會在幹的事情喔？"],["主席：接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請陳菁徽委員、陳菁徽委員，陳菁徽委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請陳素月委員、陳素月委員，陳素月委員不在。","請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員，林俊憲委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員，沈伯洋委員不在。","請陳秀寳委員、陳秀寳委員，陳秀寳委員不在。","請廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","請徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員，徐富癸委員不在。","請謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員不在。","請羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員，羅美玲委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","請賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員，賴瑞隆委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請王定宇委員、王定宇委員，王定宇委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","請葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","請林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員，林岱樺委員不在。","請吳沛憶委員、吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」\n案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139301_00001"}}}