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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 984.764, \"end\": 984.924, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 984.924, \"end\": 985.004, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 985.004, \"end\": 985.145, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 985.145, \"end\": 985.245, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 985.245, \"end\": 985.345, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 985.345, \"end\": 985.365, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:17,677 --> 00:00:37,513\n院長早好院長早各位委員各位官員大家早是不是先請我們卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:49,448 --> 00:00:51,195\n院長早今天是我們這個總預算的這個質詢\n\n3\n00:00:54,771 --> 00:01:19,114\n首先還是要跟總院長請教,這個總預算要覆尾一定要有一個解方。上次在上禮拜五的質詢,好像你比較有提出善意。你有提出來說是可以用有關於進法補償的部分,是有機會用第二預備金或是追加預算的方式來去做這個進法補償的一個解方。\n\n4\n00:01:19,835 --> 00:01:43,388\n那本席這邊是不是今天可以來請你當Keyman來把這個問題再做更清楚的一個說明就是依照預算法第70條這個進法補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金你如果是願意的話其實現在你就可以直接宣布如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話這個進法補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了\n\n5\n00:01:49,551 --> 00:02:16,609\n那第二個方式是也是你上次提到的要追加預算可是追加預算的部分還是要等你未來把這個預算送到立法院未來要三途通過那還有一段的時程還有一段未來立法院行政院要來處理的一個進度是不是請院長來說明一下我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明\n\n6\n00:02:17,833 --> 00:02:40,071\n也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意我覺得那是一個原則性的問題我一直強調在憲法70條的精神底下在預算法91條的精神底下如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重那在這個前提確立那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論那這個\n\n7\n00:02:42,192 --> 00:03:02,018\n這個共識確立,這個原則確立,未來的整個程序也確立。那針對這個今年、明年度的中央政府總預算,大家現在還有所爭議的這個進化補償。那我們可以雙方來執照共同的資金彌補來...目前的爭議在哪裡?目前就是...\n\n8\n00:03:02,668 --> 00:03:17,157\n在依照預算法第91條的規定在大院審查預算增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源\n\n9\n00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:41,885\n那無論是有沒有徵詢你上次有講用第二預備金就是資金的來源啊就是說我們要確定一定要先這樣子有這樣資金來源之後我們才能夠立這個法那之後才能去執行好那院長時間有關係我是不是簡單跟你請教你願不願意再往前進一步就照你上禮拜所說的第二預備金是不是就是財源之一\n\n10\n00:03:42,665 --> 00:03:45,669\n你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的不分黨派的想法?\n\n11\n00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:59,425\n所以院長我要講一下我是說這個過了週末兩天冷靜了一下你今天這三個方式你有沒有想要選擇今天要選擇某一個方式\n\n12\n00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:39,762\n因為在歷次的這個詢答過程當中用基金有的大院委員有不同的意見用二倍金有的認為他使用的用途有所限制用追加預算又有人認為他要到明年但是我們總會找出一個方式只要大家說好在這樣的原則程序跟他的法律的規定之下我們一定可以找出一個方式大家能夠各守一步\n\n13\n00:04:40,811 --> 00:04:54,703\n院長我最後再請教你最後一次就您今天如果願意提出善意的回應這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走對您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進\n\n14\n00:04:57,113 --> 00:04:57,693\n我認為最佳預算可能是大家爭議比較少的\n\n15\n00:05:26,861 --> 00:05:52,654\n所以你最後我今天就問到這裡啊所以你認為說你要用追加預算的方式來而不是用第二預備金因為第二預備金你可能覺得用的方式它的所謂規定內容也不是這麼的明確所以你認為說以預算法70條跟預算法79條預算法79條追加預算的方式可能是比較能行的一條路是嗎大家如果有共識明年我們變追加預算會有朝這個方向來做\n\n16\n00:05:53,314 --> 00:06:07,338\n好謝謝謝謝院長我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識謝謝您的善意好第二個我要來請教今天這個政府總預算的部分大家都知道114年度中央總預算的部分編列了3兆1325億\n\n17\n00:06:10,559 --> 00:06:37,301\n主要最大的我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是講補助費跟業務費本席針對預算編列的部分其實我很重視我們預算中心以及我們審計部給我們政府的意見其中預算中心裡面就有提到說現在他有發現就是我們在編列預算的時候有非常多的委辦費\n\n18\n00:06:39,142 --> 00:06:39,442\n財政部部長\n\n19\n00:07:05,697 --> 00:07:06,017\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n20\n00:07:27,651 --> 00:07:29,292\n我們現在看下一張圖\n\n21\n00:07:54,705 --> 00:08:06,962\n這就是所有的單位大家可以發現越來越多的單位其實委辦費用都超過50%而且還有人員增加的一個問題所以我認為這個人民的納稅錢每一塊錢都是非常的重要\n\n22\n00:08:07,847 --> 00:08:35,871\n我這邊是不是等一下請院長回答之前我這邊有一個小有一個建議是不是可以來統整來幫政府某些很多單位來做健檢如果各部會的委辦費超過50%可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況是不是可以提出檢討的報告讓人民知道說人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列而且人員不應該有增加那麼多請院長回答\n\n23\n00:08:36,636 --> 00:09:05,261\n我很贊成委員這樣的意見第一個政府增加員額有的可能是組織的調整或增加像我們的數位發展部未來的運動部它就會增加員額但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業來做結合來做進行討論跟研究但這個必須在嚴謹的專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作的對象所以未來政府要聽過這樣的方式\n\n24\n00:09:06,181 --> 00:09:20,876\n什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理之後要形成什麼樣的成效效果來給提供給我們執行或做參考這必須要非常嚴謹那我會照委員的建議我們會嚴謹的重新的來考量這個事情\n\n25\n00:09:22,094 --> 00:09:51,380\n的確第一個委辦費的部分越來越多人民我覺得他信任的是政府而不是相信政府不應該把人民納稅錢差不多一半以上都拿去委外那當然還有獎補助費像超市雞蛋案就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重一個政府沒有辦法管到我們獎補助單位的一個情形就是大家知道嘛這個農業部委託續產會續產會委託超市超市委託量產結果發現政府單位其實他沒有辦法管到超市跟量產\n\n26\n00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:52,240\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．張智倫\n\n27\n00:10:18,186 --> 00:10:18,987\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n\n28\n00:10:40,984 --> 00:10:56,395\n那我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關的問題政府難道可以把我們重要的我們的能源通通交給民間業者來做還有現在我們到底儲能設備未來要如何來做有沒有一些新的規劃\n\n29\n00:11:00,471 --> 00:11:11,900\n您剛才所指正的部分確實是我們過去的一些規劃但是我們現在是滾動式的思考所以我們會按照現況來做調整\n\n30\n00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:42,725\n好部長您的調整方式是什麼我直接給你看資料好了現在我們所有台灣其實向外購的電力已經將近高達快要30%那我一直想請問部長跟院長你知不知道未來如果這樣子以現在的目前的政策來講未來我們的國家能源可能有50%以上都成為外購電力那我請教一下如果台灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話\n\n31\n00:11:43,746 --> 00:11:44,627\n同時的需求暴增的話就會跟民間一起來做\n\n32\n00:12:01,653 --> 00:12:02,354\n我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生\n\n33\n00:12:20,718 --> 00:12:49,930\n剛一直講政府的委辦費用如果超過50%政府未來的電力如果50%以上都是跟民間採購的話未來政府的力道會越來越小那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低那我還再請教一下這個部長的部分因為部長上來了部長你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電那一度電4塊錢我們可以看到下一張圖我們台灣現在購買再生能源的\n\n34\n00:12:50,776 --> 00:12:55,717\n請問部長我有兩個看法第一個你是不是認為說這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣再生能源中間有很多的這個利潤報告委員我想這個是規模的問題\n\n35\n00:13:20,917 --> 00:13:45,764\n規模的問題我想經濟學我想你應該都學過規模越大它的成本越低我想這個在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電是因為它的規模很大所以它的建置成本就很低台灣因為我們這個台灣就是這麼小那能夠建置的這個區塊區域沒有那麼大所以它相對的成本就高\n\n36\n00:13:46,633 --> 00:14:13,888\n好,那我想要請教院長,你對部長的想法你能接受嗎?台灣現在,等於是說台灣現在在做冤大頭,跟花人民的納稅錢,來做這個外購電力的採購,風力發電要6塊5,太陽能光電要4塊8,可是從菲律賓買電只要4塊錢,請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎?未來我們是台灣就往這個,因為看,聽起來部長的想法還是非常的有自信,\n\n37\n00:14:15,603 --> 00:14:40,264\n臺灣有我們的地理環境的限制也有我們市場規模的限制那部長來自民間企業我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式能夠讓我們的公部門包括我們的這些事業單位能夠有新的想法那新的想法不一定是\n\n38\n00:14:41,445 --> 00:15:01,017\n一朝半日可以完全實施但新的辦法會刺激我們做更多的想像會刺激我們做更多元的接觸那現在都在這個過程當中我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮甚至合作的對象進行的時程預算的編列我們都會盡量這種程序來辦理的\n\n39\n00:15:02,305 --> 00:15:18,484\n好謝謝院長的分享所以這邊還是要跟部長特別的拜託啦就是說很多的政策跟很多的想法其實在講出來以後其實會造成人民的恐慌也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題我一直感覺到台灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題\n\n40\n00:15:19,625 --> 00:15:21,126\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n41\n00:15:48,162 --> 00:15:50,667\n這個重要的這個交通的交通\n\n42\n00:16:24,423 --> 00:16:25,365\n謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17677\t37513\t院長早好 院長早各位委員各位官員大家早是不是先請我們卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n49448\t51195\t院長早今天是我們這個總預算的這個質詢\n54771\t79114\t首先還是要跟總院長請教,這個總預算要覆尾一定要有一個解方。上次在上禮拜五的質詢,好像你比較有提出善意。你有提出來說是可以用有關於進法補償的部分,是有機會用第二預備金或是追加預算的方式來去做這個進法補償的一個解方。\n79835\t103388\t那本席這邊是不是今天可以來請你當Keyman來把這個問題再做更清楚的一個說明就是依照預算法第70條這個進法補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金你如果是願意的話其實現在你就可以直接宣布如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話這個進法補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了\n109551\t136609\t那第二個方式是也是你上次提到的要追加預算可是追加預算的部分還是要等你未來把這個預算送到立法院未來要三途通過那還有一段的時程還有一段未來立法院行政院要來處理的一個進度是不是請院長來說明一下我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明\n137833\t160071\t也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意我覺得那是一個原則性的問題我一直強調在憲法70條的精神底下在預算法91條的精神底下如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重那在這個前提確立那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論那這個\n162192\t182018\t這個共識確立,這個原則確立,未來的整個程序也確立。那針對這個今年、明年度的中央政府總預算,大家現在還有所爭議的這個進化補償。那我們可以雙方來執照共同的資金彌補來...目前的爭議在哪裡?目前就是...\n182668\t197157\t在依照預算法第91條的規定在大院審查預算增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源\n199739\t221885\t那無論是有沒有徵詢你上次有講用第二預備金就是資金的來源啊就是說我們要確定一定要先這樣子有這樣資金來源之後我們才能夠立這個法那之後才能去執行好那院長時間有關係我是不是簡單跟你請教你願不願意再往前進一步就照你上禮拜所說的第二預備金是不是就是財源之一\n222665\t225669\t你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的不分黨派的想法?\n235140\t239425\t所以院長我要講一下我是說這個過了週末兩天冷靜了一下你今天這三個方式你有沒有想要選擇今天要選擇某一個方式\n254000\t279762\t因為在歷次的這個詢答過程當中用基金有的大院委員有不同的意見用二倍金有的認為他使用的用途有所限制用追加預算又有人認為他要到明年但是我們總會找出一個方式只要大家說好在這樣的原則程序跟他的法律的規定之下我們一定可以找出一個方式大家能夠各守一步\n280811\t294703\t院長我最後再請教你最後一次就您今天如果願意提出善意的回應這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走對您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進\n297113\t297693\t我認為最佳預算可能是大家爭議比較少的\n326861\t352654\t所以你最後我今天就問到這裡啊所以你認為說你要用追加預算的方式來而不是用第二預備金因為第二預備金你可能覺得用的方式它的所謂規定內容也不是這麼的明確所以你認為說以預算法70條跟預算法79條預算法79條追加預算的方式可能是比較能行的一條路是嗎大家如果有共識明年我們變追加預算會有朝這個方向來做\n353314\t367338\t好 謝謝謝謝院長我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識謝謝您的善意好第二個我要來請教今天這個政府總預算的部分大家都知道114年度中央總預算的部分編列了3兆1325億\n370559\t397301\t主要最大的我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是講補助費跟業務費本席針對預算編列的部分其實我很重視我們預算中心以及我們審計部給我們政府的意見其中預算中心裡面就有提到說現在他有發現就是我們在編列預算的時候有非常多的委辦費\n399142\t399442\t財政部部長\n425697\t426017\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n447651\t449292\t我們現在看下一張圖\n474705\t486962\t這就是所有的單位大家可以發現越來越多的單位其實委辦費用都超過50%而且還有人員增加的一個問題所以我認為這個人民的納稅錢每一塊錢都是非常的重要\n487847\t515871\t我這邊是不是等一下請院長回答之前我這邊有一個小有一個建議是不是可以來統整來幫政府某些很多單位來做健檢如果各部會的委辦費超過50%可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況是不是可以提出檢討的報告讓人民知道說人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列而且人員不應該有增加那麼多請院長回答\n516636\t545261\t我很贊成委員這樣的意見第一個政府增加員額有的可能是組織的調整或增加像我們的數位發展部未來的運動部它就會增加員額但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業來做結合來做進行討論跟研究但這個必須在嚴謹的專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作的對象所以未來政府要聽過這樣的方式\n546181\t560876\t什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理之後要形成什麼樣的成效效果來給提供給我們執行或做參考這必須要非常嚴謹那我會照委員的建議我們會嚴謹的重新的來考量這個事情\n562094\t591380\t的確第一個委辦費的部分越來越多人民我覺得他信任的是政府而不是相信政府不應該把人民納稅錢差不多一半以上都拿去委外那當然還有獎補助費像超市雞蛋案就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重一個政府沒有辦法管到我們獎補助單位的一個情形就是大家知道嘛這個農業部委託續產會續產會委託超市超市委託量產結果發現政府單位其實他沒有辦法管到超市跟量產\n592020\t592240\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．張智倫\n618186\t618987\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n640984\t656395\t那我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關的問題政府難道可以把我們重要的我們的能源通通交給民間業者來做還有現在我們到底儲能設備未來要如何來做有沒有一些新的規劃\n660471\t671900\t您剛才所指正的部分確實是我們過去的一些規劃但是我們現在是滾動式的思考所以我們會按照現況來做調整\n675250\t702725\t好部長您的調整方式是什麼我直接給你看資料好了現在我們所有台灣其實向外購的電力已經將近高達快要30%那我一直想請問部長跟院長你知不知道未來如果這樣子以現在的目前的政策來講未來我們的國家能源可能有50%以上都成為外購電力那我請教一下如果台灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話\n703746\t704627\t同時的需求暴增的話就會跟民間一起來做\n721653\t722354\t我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生\n740718\t769930\t剛一直講政府的委辦費用如果超過50%政府未來的電力如果50%以上都是跟民間採購的話未來政府的力道會越來越小那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低那我還再請教一下這個部長的部分因為部長上來了部長你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電那一度電4塊錢我們可以看到下一張圖我們台灣現在購買再生能源的\n770776\t775717\t請問部長我有兩個看法第一個你是不是認為說這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣再生能源中間有很多的這個利潤報告委員我想這個是規模的問題\n800917\t825764\t規模的問題我想經濟學我想你應該都學過規模越大它的成本越低我想這個在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電是因為它的規模很大所以它的建置成本就很低台灣因為我們這個台灣就是這麼小那能夠建置的這個區塊區域沒有那麼大所以它相對的成本就高\n826633\t853888\t好,那我想要請教院長,你對部長的想法你能接受嗎?台灣現在,等於是說台灣現在在做冤大頭,跟花人民的納稅錢,來做這個外購電力的採購,風力發電要6塊5,太陽能光電要4塊8,可是從菲律賓買電只要4塊錢,請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎?未來我們是台灣就往這個,因為看,聽起來部長的想法還是非常的有自信,\n855603\t880264\t臺灣有我們的地理環境的限制也有我們市場規模的限制那部長來自民間企業我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式能夠讓我們的公部門包括我們的這些事業單位能夠有新的想法那新的想法不一定是\n881445\t901017\t一朝半日可以完全實施但新的辦法會刺激我們做更多的想像會刺激我們做更多元的接觸那現在都在這個過程當中我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮甚至合作的對象進行的時程預算的編列我們都會盡量這種程序來辦理的\n902305\t918484\t好 謝謝院長的分享所以這邊還是要跟部長特別的拜託啦就是說很多的政策跟很多的想法其實在講出來以後其實會造成人民的恐慌也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題我一直感覺到台灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題\n919625\t921126\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n948162\t950667\t這個重要的這個交通的交通\n984423\t985365\t謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。\n","txt":"院長早好 院長早各位委員各位官員大家早是不是先請我們卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n院長早今天是我們這個總預算的這個質詢\n首先還是要跟總院長請教,這個總預算要覆尾一定要有一個解方。上次在上禮拜五的質詢,好像你比較有提出善意。你有提出來說是可以用有關於進法補償的部分,是有機會用第二預備金或是追加預算的方式來去做這個進法補償的一個解方。\n那本席這邊是不是今天可以來請你當Keyman來把這個問題再做更清楚的一個說明就是依照預算法第70條這個進法補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金你如果是願意的話其實現在你就可以直接宣布如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話這個進法補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了\n那第二個方式是也是你上次提到的要追加預算可是追加預算的部分還是要等你未來把這個預算送到立法院未來要三途通過那還有一段的時程還有一段未來立法院行政院要來處理的一個進度是不是請院長來說明一下我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明\n也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意我覺得那是一個原則性的問題我一直強調在憲法70條的精神底下在預算法91條的精神底下如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重那在這個前提確立那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論那這個\n這個共識確立,這個原則確立,未來的整個程序也確立。那針對這個今年、明年度的中央政府總預算,大家現在還有所爭議的這個進化補償。那我們可以雙方來執照共同的資金彌補來...目前的爭議在哪裡?目前就是...\n在依照預算法第91條的規定在大院審查預算增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源\n那無論是有沒有徵詢你上次有講用第二預備金就是資金的來源啊就是說我們要確定一定要先這樣子有這樣資金來源之後我們才能夠立這個法那之後才能去執行好那院長時間有關係我是不是簡單跟你請教你願不願意再往前進一步就照你上禮拜所說的第二預備金是不是就是財源之一\n你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的不分黨派的想法?\n所以院長我要講一下我是說這個過了週末兩天冷靜了一下你今天這三個方式你有沒有想要選擇今天要選擇某一個方式\n因為在歷次的這個詢答過程當中用基金有的大院委員有不同的意見用二倍金有的認為他使用的用途有所限制用追加預算又有人認為他要到明年但是我們總會找出一個方式只要大家說好在這樣的原則程序跟他的法律的規定之下我們一定可以找出一個方式大家能夠各守一步\n院長我最後再請教你最後一次就您今天如果願意提出善意的回應這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走對您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進\n我認為最佳預算可能是大家爭議比較少的\n所以你最後我今天就問到這裡啊所以你認為說你要用追加預算的方式來而不是用第二預備金因為第二預備金你可能覺得用的方式它的所謂規定內容也不是這麼的明確所以你認為說以預算法70條跟預算法79條預算法79條追加預算的方式可能是比較能行的一條路是嗎大家如果有共識明年我們變追加預算會有朝這個方向來做\n好 謝謝謝謝院長我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識謝謝您的善意好第二個我要來請教今天這個政府總預算的部分大家都知道114年度中央總預算的部分編列了3兆1325億\n主要最大的我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是講補助費跟業務費本席針對預算編列的部分其實我很重視我們預算中心以及我們審計部給我們政府的意見其中預算中心裡面就有提到說現在他有發現就是我們在編列預算的時候有非常多的委辦費\n財政部部長\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n我們現在看下一張圖\n這就是所有的單位大家可以發現越來越多的單位其實委辦費用都超過50%而且還有人員增加的一個問題所以我認為這個人民的納稅錢每一塊錢都是非常的重要\n我這邊是不是等一下請院長回答之前我這邊有一個小有一個建議是不是可以來統整來幫政府某些很多單位來做健檢如果各部會的委辦費超過50%可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況是不是可以提出檢討的報告讓人民知道說人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列而且人員不應該有增加那麼多請院長回答\n我很贊成委員這樣的意見第一個政府增加員額有的可能是組織的調整或增加像我們的數位發展部未來的運動部它就會增加員額但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業來做結合來做進行討論跟研究但這個必須在嚴謹的專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作的對象所以未來政府要聽過這樣的方式\n什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理之後要形成什麼樣的成效效果來給提供給我們執行或做參考這必須要非常嚴謹那我會照委員的建議我們會嚴謹的重新的來考量這個事情\n的確第一個委辦費的部分越來越多人民我覺得他信任的是政府而不是相信政府不應該把人民納稅錢差不多一半以上都拿去委外那當然還有獎補助費像超市雞蛋案就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重一個政府沒有辦法管到我們獎補助單位的一個情形就是大家知道嘛這個農業部委託續產會續產會委託超市超市委託量產結果發現政府單位其實他沒有辦法管到超市跟量產\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．張智倫\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n那我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關的問題政府難道可以把我們重要的我們的能源通通交給民間業者來做還有現在我們到底儲能設備未來要如何來做有沒有一些新的規劃\n您剛才所指正的部分確實是我們過去的一些規劃但是我們現在是滾動式的思考所以我們會按照現況來做調整\n好部長您的調整方式是什麼我直接給你看資料好了現在我們所有台灣其實向外購的電力已經將近高達快要30%那我一直想請問部長跟院長你知不知道未來如果這樣子以現在的目前的政策來講未來我們的國家能源可能有50%以上都成為外購電力那我請教一下如果台灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話\n同時的需求暴增的話就會跟民間一起來做\n我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生\n剛一直講政府的委辦費用如果超過50%政府未來的電力如果50%以上都是跟民間採購的話未來政府的力道會越來越小那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低那我還再請教一下這個部長的部分因為部長上來了部長你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電那一度電4塊錢我們可以看到下一張圖我們台灣現在購買再生能源的\n請問部長我有兩個看法第一個你是不是認為說這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣再生能源中間有很多的這個利潤報告委員我想這個是規模的問題\n規模的問題我想經濟學我想你應該都學過規模越大它的成本越低我想這個在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電是因為它的規模很大所以它的建置成本就很低台灣因為我們這個台灣就是這麼小那能夠建置的這個區塊區域沒有那麼大所以它相對的成本就高\n好,那我想要請教院長,你對部長的想法你能接受嗎?台灣現在,等於是說台灣現在在做冤大頭,跟花人民的納稅錢,來做這個外購電力的採購,風力發電要6塊5,太陽能光電要4塊8,可是從菲律賓買電只要4塊錢,請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎?未來我們是台灣就往這個,因為看,聽起來部長的想法還是非常的有自信,\n臺灣有我們的地理環境的限制也有我們市場規模的限制那部長來自民間企業我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式能夠讓我們的公部門包括我們的這些事業單位能夠有新的想法那新的想法不一定是\n一朝半日可以完全實施但新的辦法會刺激我們做更多的想像會刺激我們做更多元的接觸那現在都在這個過程當中我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮甚至合作的對象進行的時程預算的編列我們都會盡量這種程序來辦理的\n好 謝謝院長的分享所以這邊還是要跟部長特別的拜託啦就是說很多的政策跟很多的想法其實在講出來以後其實會造成人民的恐慌也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題我一直感覺到台灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n這個重要的這個交通的交通\n謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.677 --> 00:37.513\n院長早好院長早各位委員各位官員大家早是不是先請我們卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n\n00:49.448 --> 00:51.195\n院長早今天是我們這個總預算的這個質詢\n\n00:54.771 --> 01:19.114\n首先還是要跟總院長請教,這個總預算要覆尾一定要有一個解方。上次在上禮拜五的質詢,好像你比較有提出善意。你有提出來說是可以用有關於進法補償的部分,是有機會用第二預備金或是追加預算的方式來去做這個進法補償的一個解方。\n\n01:19.835 --> 01:43.388\n那本席這邊是不是今天可以來請你當Keyman來把這個問題再做更清楚的一個說明就是依照預算法第70條這個進法補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金你如果是願意的話其實現在你就可以直接宣布如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話這個進法補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了\n\n01:49.551 --> 02:16.609\n那第二個方式是也是你上次提到的要追加預算可是追加預算的部分還是要等你未來把這個預算送到立法院未來要三途通過那還有一段的時程還有一段未來立法院行政院要來處理的一個進度是不是請院長來說明一下我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明\n\n02:17.833 --> 02:40.071\n也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意我覺得那是一個原則性的問題我一直強調在憲法70條的精神底下在預算法91條的精神底下如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重那在這個前提確立那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論那這個\n\n02:42.192 --> 03:02.018\n這個共識確立,這個原則確立,未來的整個程序也確立。那針對這個今年、明年度的中央政府總預算,大家現在還有所爭議的這個進化補償。那我們可以雙方來執照共同的資金彌補來...目前的爭議在哪裡?目前就是...\n\n03:02.668 --> 03:17.157\n在依照預算法第91條的規定在大院審查預算增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源\n\n03:19.739 --> 03:41.885\n那無論是有沒有徵詢你上次有講用第二預備金就是資金的來源啊就是說我們要確定一定要先這樣子有這樣資金來源之後我們才能夠立這個法那之後才能去執行好那院長時間有關係我是不是簡單跟你請教你願不願意再往前進一步就照你上禮拜所說的第二預備金是不是就是財源之一\n\n03:42.665 --> 03:45.669\n你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的不分黨派的想法?\n\n03:55.140 --> 03:59.425\n所以院長我要講一下我是說這個過了週末兩天冷靜了一下你今天這三個方式你有沒有想要選擇今天要選擇某一個方式\n\n04:14.000 --> 04:39.762\n因為在歷次的這個詢答過程當中用基金有的大院委員有不同的意見用二倍金有的認為他使用的用途有所限制用追加預算又有人認為他要到明年但是我們總會找出一個方式只要大家說好在這樣的原則程序跟他的法律的規定之下我們一定可以找出一個方式大家能夠各守一步\n\n04:40.811 --> 04:54.703\n院長我最後再請教你最後一次就您今天如果願意提出善意的回應這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走對您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進\n\n04:57.113 --> 04:57.693\n我認為最佳預算可能是大家爭議比較少的\n\n05:26.861 --> 05:52.654\n所以你最後我今天就問到這裡啊所以你認為說你要用追加預算的方式來而不是用第二預備金因為第二預備金你可能覺得用的方式它的所謂規定內容也不是這麼的明確所以你認為說以預算法70條跟預算法79條預算法79條追加預算的方式可能是比較能行的一條路是嗎大家如果有共識明年我們變追加預算會有朝這個方向來做\n\n05:53.314 --> 06:07.338\n好謝謝謝謝院長我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識謝謝您的善意好第二個我要來請教今天這個政府總預算的部分大家都知道114年度中央總預算的部分編列了3兆1325億\n\n06:10.559 --> 06:37.301\n主要最大的我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是講補助費跟業務費本席針對預算編列的部分其實我很重視我們預算中心以及我們審計部給我們政府的意見其中預算中心裡面就有提到說現在他有發現就是我們在編列預算的時候有非常多的委辦費\n\n06:39.142 --> 06:39.442\n財政部部長\n\n07:05.697 --> 07:06.017\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n07:27.651 --> 07:29.292\n我們現在看下一張圖\n\n07:54.705 --> 08:06.962\n這就是所有的單位大家可以發現越來越多的單位其實委辦費用都超過50%而且還有人員增加的一個問題所以我認為這個人民的納稅錢每一塊錢都是非常的重要\n\n08:07.847 --> 08:35.871\n我這邊是不是等一下請院長回答之前我這邊有一個小有一個建議是不是可以來統整來幫政府某些很多單位來做健檢如果各部會的委辦費超過50%可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況是不是可以提出檢討的報告讓人民知道說人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列而且人員不應該有增加那麼多請院長回答\n\n08:36.636 --> 09:05.261\n我很贊成委員這樣的意見第一個政府增加員額有的可能是組織的調整或增加像我們的數位發展部未來的運動部它就會增加員額但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業來做結合來做進行討論跟研究但這個必須在嚴謹的專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作的對象所以未來政府要聽過這樣的方式\n\n09:06.181 --> 09:20.876\n什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理之後要形成什麼樣的成效效果來給提供給我們執行或做參考這必須要非常嚴謹那我會照委員的建議我們會嚴謹的重新的來考量這個事情\n\n09:22.094 --> 09:51.380\n的確第一個委辦費的部分越來越多人民我覺得他信任的是政府而不是相信政府不應該把人民納稅錢差不多一半以上都拿去委外那當然還有獎補助費像超市雞蛋案就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重一個政府沒有辦法管到我們獎補助單位的一個情形就是大家知道嘛這個農業部委託續產會續產會委託超市超市委託量產結果發現政府單位其實他沒有辦法管到超市跟量產\n\n09:52.020 --> 09:52.240\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．張智倫\n\n10:18.186 --> 10:18.987\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。\n\n10:40.984 --> 10:56.395\n那我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關的問題政府難道可以把我們重要的我們的能源通通交給民間業者來做還有現在我們到底儲能設備未來要如何來做有沒有一些新的規劃\n\n11:00.471 --> 11:11.900\n您剛才所指正的部分確實是我們過去的一些規劃但是我們現在是滾動式的思考所以我們會按照現況來做調整\n\n11:15.250 --> 11:42.725\n好部長您的調整方式是什麼我直接給你看資料好了現在我們所有台灣其實向外購的電力已經將近高達快要30%那我一直想請問部長跟院長你知不知道未來如果這樣子以現在的目前的政策來講未來我們的國家能源可能有50%以上都成為外購電力那我請教一下如果台灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話\n\n11:43.746 --> 11:44.627\n同時的需求暴增的話就會跟民間一起來做\n\n12:01.653 --> 12:02.354\n我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生\n\n12:20.718 --> 12:49.930\n剛一直講政府的委辦費用如果超過50%政府未來的電力如果50%以上都是跟民間採購的話未來政府的力道會越來越小那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低那我還再請教一下這個部長的部分因為部長上來了部長你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電那一度電4塊錢我們可以看到下一張圖我們台灣現在購買再生能源的\n\n12:50.776 --> 12:55.717\n請問部長我有兩個看法第一個你是不是認為說這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣再生能源中間有很多的這個利潤報告委員我想這個是規模的問題\n\n13:20.917 --> 13:45.764\n規模的問題我想經濟學我想你應該都學過規模越大它的成本越低我想這個在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電是因為它的規模很大所以它的建置成本就很低台灣因為我們這個台灣就是這麼小那能夠建置的這個區塊區域沒有那麼大所以它相對的成本就高\n\n13:46.633 --> 14:13.888\n好,那我想要請教院長,你對部長的想法你能接受嗎?台灣現在,等於是說台灣現在在做冤大頭,跟花人民的納稅錢,來做這個外購電力的採購,風力發電要6塊5,太陽能光電要4塊8,可是從菲律賓買電只要4塊錢,請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎?未來我們是台灣就往這個,因為看,聽起來部長的想法還是非常的有自信,\n\n14:15.603 --> 14:40.264\n臺灣有我們的地理環境的限制也有我們市場規模的限制那部長來自民間企業我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式能夠讓我們的公部門包括我們的這些事業單位能夠有新的想法那新的想法不一定是\n\n14:41.445 --> 15:01.017\n一朝半日可以完全實施但新的辦法會刺激我們做更多的想像會刺激我們做更多元的接觸那現在都在這個過程當中我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮甚至合作的對象進行的時程預算的編列我們都會盡量這種程序來辦理的\n\n15:02.305 --> 15:18.484\n好謝謝院長的分享所以這邊還是要跟部長特別的拜託啦就是說很多的政策跟很多的想法其實在講出來以後其實會造成人民的恐慌也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題我一直感覺到台灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題\n\n15:19.625 --> 15:21.126\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n15:48.162 --> 15:50.667\n這個重要的這個交通的交通\n\n16:24.423 --> 16:25.365\n謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.677,"end":37.513,"text":"院長早好 院長早各位委員各位官員大家早是不是先請我們卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":49.448,"end":51.195,"text":"院長早今天是我們這個總預算的這個質詢"},{"start":54.771,"end":79.114,"text":"首先還是要跟總院長請教,這個總預算要覆尾一定要有一個解方。上次在上禮拜五的質詢,好像你比較有提出善意。你有提出來說是可以用有關於進法補償的部分,是有機會用第二預備金或是追加預算的方式來去做這個進法補償的一個解方。"},{"start":79.835,"end":103.388,"text":"那本席這邊是不是今天可以來請你當Keyman來把這個問題再做更清楚的一個說明就是依照預算法第70條這個進法補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金你如果是願意的話其實現在你就可以直接宣布如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話這個進法補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了"},{"start":109.551,"end":136.609,"text":"那第二個方式是也是你上次提到的要追加預算可是追加預算的部分還是要等你未來把這個預算送到立法院未來要三途通過那還有一段的時程還有一段未來立法院行政院要來處理的一個進度是不是請院長來說明一下我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明"},{"start":137.833,"end":160.071,"text":"也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意我覺得那是一個原則性的問題我一直強調在憲法70條的精神底下在預算法91條的精神底下如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重那在這個前提確立那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論那這個"},{"start":162.192,"end":182.018,"text":"這個共識確立,這個原則確立,未來的整個程序也確立。那針對這個今年、明年度的中央政府總預算,大家現在還有所爭議的這個進化補償。那我們可以雙方來執照共同的資金彌補來...目前的爭議在哪裡?目前就是..."},{"start":182.668,"end":197.157,"text":"在依照預算法第91條的規定在大院審查預算增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源"},{"start":199.739,"end":221.885,"text":"那無論是有沒有徵詢你上次有講用第二預備金就是資金的來源啊就是說我們要確定一定要先這樣子有這樣資金來源之後我們才能夠立這個法那之後才能去執行好那院長時間有關係我是不是簡單跟你請教你願不願意再往前進一步就照你上禮拜所說的第二預備金是不是就是財源之一"},{"start":222.665,"end":225.669,"text":"你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的不分黨派的想法?"},{"start":235.14,"end":239.425,"text":"所以院長我要講一下我是說這個過了週末兩天冷靜了一下你今天這三個方式你有沒有想要選擇今天要選擇某一個方式"},{"start":254,"end":279.762,"text":"因為在歷次的這個詢答過程當中用基金有的大院委員有不同的意見用二倍金有的認為他使用的用途有所限制用追加預算又有人認為他要到明年但是我們總會找出一個方式只要大家說好在這樣的原則程序跟他的法律的規定之下我們一定可以找出一個方式大家能夠各守一步"},{"start":280.811,"end":294.703,"text":"院長我最後再請教你最後一次就您今天如果願意提出善意的回應這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走對您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進"},{"start":297.113,"end":297.693,"text":"我認為最佳預算可能是大家爭議比較少的"},{"start":326.861,"end":352.654,"text":"所以你最後我今天就問到這裡啊所以你認為說你要用追加預算的方式來而不是用第二預備金因為第二預備金你可能覺得用的方式它的所謂規定內容也不是這麼的明確所以你認為說以預算法70條跟預算法79條預算法79條追加預算的方式可能是比較能行的一條路是嗎大家如果有共識明年我們變追加預算會有朝這個方向來做"},{"start":353.314,"end":367.338,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝院長我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識謝謝您的善意好第二個我要來請教今天這個政府總預算的部分大家都知道114年度中央總預算的部分編列了3兆1325億"},{"start":370.559,"end":397.301,"text":"主要最大的我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是講補助費跟業務費本席針對預算編列的部分其實我很重視我們預算中心以及我們審計部給我們政府的意見其中預算中心裡面就有提到說現在他有發現就是我們在編列預算的時候有非常多的委辦費"},{"start":399.142,"end":399.442,"text":"財政部部長"},{"start":425.697,"end":426.017,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":447.651,"end":449.292,"text":"我們現在看下一張圖"},{"start":474.705,"end":486.962,"text":"這就是所有的單位大家可以發現越來越多的單位其實委辦費用都超過50%而且還有人員增加的一個問題所以我認為這個人民的納稅錢每一塊錢都是非常的重要"},{"start":487.847,"end":515.871,"text":"我這邊是不是等一下請院長回答之前我這邊有一個小有一個建議是不是可以來統整來幫政府某些很多單位來做健檢如果各部會的委辦費超過50%可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況是不是可以提出檢討的報告讓人民知道說人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列而且人員不應該有增加那麼多請院長回答"},{"start":516.636,"end":545.261,"text":"我很贊成委員這樣的意見第一個政府增加員額有的可能是組織的調整或增加像我們的數位發展部未來的運動部它就會增加員額但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業來做結合來做進行討論跟研究但這個必須在嚴謹的專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作的對象所以未來政府要聽過這樣的方式"},{"start":546.181,"end":560.876,"text":"什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理之後要形成什麼樣的成效效果來給提供給我們執行或做參考這必須要非常嚴謹那我會照委員的建議我們會嚴謹的重新的來考量這個事情"},{"start":562.094,"end":591.38,"text":"的確第一個委辦費的部分越來越多人民我覺得他信任的是政府而不是相信政府不應該把人民納稅錢差不多一半以上都拿去委外那當然還有獎補助費像超市雞蛋案就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重一個政府沒有辦法管到我們獎補助單位的一個情形就是大家知道嘛這個農業部委託續產會續產會委託超市超市委託量產結果發現政府單位其實他沒有辦法管到超市跟量產"},{"start":592.02,"end":592.24,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．張智倫"},{"start":618.186,"end":618.987,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":640.984,"end":656.395,"text":"那我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關的問題政府難道可以把我們重要的我們的能源通通交給民間業者來做還有現在我們到底儲能設備未來要如何來做有沒有一些新的規劃"},{"start":660.471,"end":671.9,"text":"您剛才所指正的部分確實是我們過去的一些規劃但是我們現在是滾動式的思考所以我們會按照現況來做調整"},{"start":675.25,"end":702.725,"text":"好部長您的調整方式是什麼我直接給你看資料好了現在我們所有台灣其實向外購的電力已經將近高達快要30%那我一直想請問部長跟院長你知不知道未來如果這樣子以現在的目前的政策來講未來我們的國家能源可能有50%以上都成為外購電力那我請教一下如果台灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話"},{"start":703.746,"end":704.627,"text":"同時的需求暴增的話就會跟民間一起來做"},{"start":721.653,"end":722.354,"text":"我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生"},{"start":740.718,"end":769.93,"text":"剛一直講政府的委辦費用如果超過50%政府未來的電力如果50%以上都是跟民間採購的話未來政府的力道會越來越小那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低那我還再請教一下這個部長的部分因為部長上來了部長你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電那一度電4塊錢我們可以看到下一張圖我們台灣現在購買再生能源的"},{"start":770.776,"end":775.717,"text":"請問部長我有兩個看法第一個你是不是認為說這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣再生能源中間有很多的這個利潤報告委員我想這個是規模的問題"},{"start":800.917,"end":825.764,"text":"規模的問題我想經濟學我想你應該都學過規模越大它的成本越低我想這個在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電是因為它的規模很大所以它的建置成本就很低台灣因為我們這個台灣就是這麼小那能夠建置的這個區塊區域沒有那麼大所以它相對的成本就高"},{"start":826.633,"end":853.888,"text":"好,那我想要請教院長,你對部長的想法你能接受嗎?台灣現在,等於是說台灣現在在做冤大頭,跟花人民的納稅錢,來做這個外購電力的採購,風力發電要6塊5,太陽能光電要4塊8,可是從菲律賓買電只要4塊錢,請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎?未來我們是台灣就往這個,因為看,聽起來部長的想法還是非常的有自信,"},{"start":855.603,"end":880.264,"text":"臺灣有我們的地理環境的限制也有我們市場規模的限制那部長來自民間企業我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式能夠讓我們的公部門包括我們的這些事業單位能夠有新的想法那新的想法不一定是"},{"start":881.445,"end":901.017,"text":"一朝半日可以完全實施但新的辦法會刺激我們做更多的想像會刺激我們做更多元的接觸那現在都在這個過程當中我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮甚至合作的對象進行的時程預算的編列我們都會盡量這種程序來辦理的"},{"start":902.305,"end":918.484,"text":"好 謝謝院長的分享所以這邊還是要跟部長特別的拜託啦就是說很多的政策跟很多的想法其實在講出來以後其實會造成人民的恐慌也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題我一直感覺到台灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題"},{"start":919.625,"end":921.126,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．張智倫二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":948.162,"end":950.667,"text":"這個重要的這個交通的交通"},{"start":984.423,"end":985.365,"text":"謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時）院長早，各位委員、各位官員，大家早，先請我們卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員早。"],["張委員智倫：院長早。今天是我們總預算的質詢，首先還是要跟卓院長請教，總預算要付委，一定要有一個解方，上次在上禮拜五的質詢，好像你比較有釋出善意，你有提出有關於禁伐補償的部分，是有機會用第二預備金，或是追加預算的方式來去做禁伐補償的一個解方，那本席今天是不是可以請你當key man，來把這個問題再做更清楚的說明？就是依照預算法第七十條，禁伐補償的部分是不是可以用第二預備金來處理？如果你願意的話，其實現在你就可以直接宣布，如果你願意用第二預備金來解決這個問題的話，這個禁伐補償從3萬塊提到6萬塊的部分就可以立馬來解決了。第二個方式也是你上次提到的要追加預算，可是追加預算的部分還是要等未來你把預算送到立法院，然後要三讀通過，那還有一段時程，還有一段未來行政院要來處理的一個進度，是不是請院長來說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我很謝謝委員在上一週的報告當中有看到我們在書面以及口頭的說明，也謝謝委員把它形容是一種善意，我覺得那是一個原則性的問題，我一直強調，在憲法第七十條的精神底下、在預算法第九十一條的精神底下，如果行政跟立法兩院互相尊重，這個前提確立，那往後我們也依照這樣的方式來進行所有的預算跟法律案的討論，這個共識確立、這個原則確立，未來的整個程序也確立，針對明年度的中央政府總預算，大家現在還有所爭議的禁伐補償，我們可以雙方共同來尋找資金的來源。"],["張委員智倫：院長，請教一下，目前的爭議在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前就是依照預算法第九十一條……"],["張委員智倫：有人違反憲法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照第九十一條的規定……"],["張委員智倫：違反憲法第九十一條？"],["卓院長榮泰：在大院審查預算增加歲出的時候，必須徵詢行政院的意見，同時要指出彌補資金之來源，無論是有沒有徵詢……"],["張委員智倫：有啊！你上次有講，用第二預備金就是資金的來源。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是說我們要確定，一定要先有這樣的資金來源之後，我們才能夠立這個法，之後才能去執行……"],["張委員智倫：好，院長，時間的關係，我是不是簡單跟你請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是立法之後……"],["張委員智倫：你願不願意再往前進一步，就像你上禮拜所說的，第二預備金是不是就是財源之一，你願不願意往前進一步來回應在野黨的或是不分黨派的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我最後一句話是說，如果剛剛說的法律、憲法的共識、原則、程序都確定，那是要用基金還是用二備金，還是用追加預算，我們都可以來討論，行政院都可以朝這個方向，我們共同找出、尋找資金之來源。"],["張委員智倫：院長我要請教的是，過了週末兩天冷靜了一下，對於這3個方式，今天你有沒有想要選擇某一個方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在歷次的詢答過程當中，用基金，有的大院委員有不同的意見；用二備金，有的認為它使用的用途有所限制；用追加預算，又有人認為它要到明年。但是我們總會找出一個方式，只要大家說好在這樣的原則、程序跟它的法律規定之下，我們一定可以找出一個方式，大家能夠各守一步。"],["張委員智倫：院長，我最後再請教你最後一次，您今天如果願意提出善意的回應，這三種你覺得會比較往哪一個方式走，您心中覺得是可以比較往這個方向前進？"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以說我的想法啦！但是……"],["張委員智倫：好，請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會引起其他對這個想法不同意見的想法。"],["張委員智倫：沒關係，請說你的想法，大家會願意尊重行政院長的想法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為用基金的方式最方便，未來我們是不是可以再嘗試用公務預算來填補基金，這是一個最……"],["張委員智倫：好。你今天三選二，已經剩兩個，那兩個裡面，如果是基金跟追加預算的部分，你會選哪一個？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為追加預算可能是大家爭議比較少的。"],["張委員智倫：我今天就問到這裡，所以你認為你要用追加預算的方式，而不是用第二預備金，因為第二預備金，你可能覺得用的方式、所謂規定的內容也不是這麼的明確。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員智倫：所以你認為以預算法第七十條跟預算法第七十九條追加預算的方式，可能是比較能行的一條路，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家如果有共識，明年我們編追加預算，會朝這個方向來做。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，謝謝院長。我們再一起繼續加油尋求共識，謝謝您的善意。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：第二個我要來請教，今天這個政府總預算的部分，大家都知道，114年度中央政府總預算編列了3兆1,325億，我們看到這塊餅主要最大的就是獎補助費跟業務費。本席針對預算編列的部分，其實我很重視我們預算中心以及審計部給政府的意見，其中預算中心裡面就有提到，現在它有發現在編列預算的時候有非常多委辦費，政府在編列預算的時候有業務費，可是我們希望政府可以越來越專業、越來越精進，當然政府的想法是有些自己不能做的委辦出去。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["張委員智倫：可是我們現在發現預算中心有特別提到，政府的員額有增加越來越多，可是委辦費也增加越來越多的這個情形。顧名思義，政府右手增列了很多優秀的人才到政府單位來上班，我們很支持，可是左手卻把人民的納稅錢、很多的經費拿去給外部的民間或是基金會做委辦費，所以我們可以看到這張圖，其實預算中心有特別提到，我們經濟部、環境部、數發部、教育部跟衛生福利部有超過50%是委辦費用，所以我要請教院長的部分是，我們人民相信的是政府，而不是相信外部的委辦單位，一方面政府人員增加，一方面委辦費用增加，這樣子政府不會變成讓人民沒辦法信任，變成委辦政府嗎？","我們現在看下一張圖，這就是所有單位，大家可以發現越來越多單位的委辦費用都超過50%，而且還有人員增加的一個問題。我認為人民的納稅錢，每一塊錢都是非常的重要，等一下請院長回答之前，我這邊有一個建議，是不是可以統整幫政府很多單位做健檢？如果各部會的委辦費超過50%，可是人員有增加的這樣的狀況，是不是可以提出檢討的報告，讓人民知道人民的納稅錢是沒有被浪費的？事實上是有這樣的委辦費有需要這樣的編列，而且人員不應該有增加那麼多？來，請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很贊成委員這樣的意見，第一個，政府增加員額有的可能是組織調整或增加，像我們的數位發展部、未來的運動部，它就會增加員額，但是政府很多專業的研究業務必須跟外界的專業結合，進行討論跟研究，但這個必須在嚴謹的、專業的評鑑底下去選擇適合的合作對象。所以，未來政府要經過這樣的方式，什麼樣的業務需要委外去辦理，之後要形成什麼樣的成效、效果提供給我們執行或做參考，這必須要非常嚴謹；我會照委員的建議，我們會嚴謹的、重新的來考量這個事情。"],["張委員智倫：的確，第一個，委辦費的部分越來越多，我覺得人民信任的是政府，政府不應該把人民納稅錢超過一半以上都拿去委外，當然還有獎補助費，像超思雞蛋案，就是一個獎補助費非常嚴重，政府沒辦法管到獎補助單位的情形，大家知道嘛，農業部委託畜產會，畜產會委託超思，超思委託亮采，結果發現政府單位其實沒辦法管到超思及亮采，可是這獎補助費或委辦費就這樣發下去，所以我今天要跟院長請益，也謝謝院長從善如流，來做這樣相關的檢討。","好，接下來我要請教就是有關台電的一個問題，大家可以看到這張投影片，這張投影片上次我也有跟院長請教過的，上次郭部長特別跟我講，他說政府沒有想要來自己做綠能，因為他認為台電自己做綠能速度太慢，第二個，郭部長也特別跟我強調說，政府當時要做儲能設備，但做到2025年政策就有可能會轉彎，他說未來有可能政府還是要考慮做儲能設備，部長，但我想要請教剛剛講的這些委辦的相關問題，政府難道可以把我們重要的能源，通通交給民間業者來做？還有到底我們的儲能設備未來要如何來做？有沒有一些新的規劃，請回答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想您剛才所指正的部分，確實是我們過去的一些規劃，但我們現在是滾動式思考，所以我們會按照現況來做調整。"],["張委員智倫：好，部長你的調整方式是什麼？我直接給你看資料好了，現在像我們臺灣的外購電力已經將近高達30%，我一直想要請問部長跟院長，如果以目前的政策來講，未來我們國家每年可能有50%以上都成為外購電力，我想請教一下，如果未來臺灣全50%以上都是外購電力的話，這樣會不會韌性不足？你認為未來這樣的能源政策，到底是由民間來主導？還是政府來主導？"],["郭部長智輝：如果同時的需求暴增的話，就會跟民間一起來做，長期的規劃，我想剛剛你有秀一張圖，是長期的規劃，但這裡面會因為時空的關係而有些改變，所以改變的時候，我們還是需要民間一起來做。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以我還是非常擔心這樣的問題產生，剛剛我一直講，政府的委辦費如果超過50%，如果未來的電力50%以上政府都是跟民間採購的話，未來政府的力道會越來越小，那未來人民對政府的信任也會越來越低。","我還是要再請教一下部長，因為部長上來了，部長，你之前有講過要去菲律賓買電，那一度電4元，我們可以看一下下一張圖，我們臺灣現在購買再生能源的成本非常的高，風力發電大概是6元，太陽能大概是4元，結果部長講了一個非常厲害的，從菲律賓買電只要4元，部長，我有兩個看法，第一個，你是不是認為說，這個臺灣的再生能源的價格太高？第二個會讓我覺得是不是臺灣的再生能源中間有很多的利潤。"],["郭部長智輝：好，報告委員，我想這是規模的問題，規模的問題，我想經濟學你應該都學過，規模越大，它的成本越低，在菲律賓我可以買到比較便宜的電，是因為它的規模很大，所以它的建置成本就很低，臺灣因為就這麼小，能夠建置的區塊、區域沒有這麼大，所以它相對的成本就高。"],["張委員智倫：好，那我想要請教院長，您對部長的講法能接受嗎？等於臺灣現在在做冤大頭啊！花人民的納稅錢來做外購電力的採購，風力發電要6.5元、太陽能光電要4.8元，可是從菲律賓買電只要4元，請問部長有跟院長報告過這件事情嗎？未來臺灣是不是就往這個方向，因為看部長的想法還是非常的有自信啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員，臺灣有我們地理環境的限制，也有我們市場規模的限制，部長來自民間企業，我們一開始邀請部長來擔任這個工作，第一個就是希望他用民間企業經營管理的這種精神跟方式，能夠讓我們的公部門，包括我們的這些事業單位，能夠有新的想法。那新的想法不一定是一朝半日可以完全實施，但新的想法會刺激我們做更多的想像，會刺激我們做更多元的接觸，那現在都在這個過程當中，我覺得部長很多的想法我們都會經過很深思熟慮的考慮，甚至合作的對象、進行的時程、預算的編列，我們都會盡量用這種程序來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長的分享，所以這邊還是要跟部長特別拜託，很多的政策跟很多的想法，其實在講出來以後會造成人民的恐慌，也會造成現在整個台電的一些問題，我一直感覺到臺灣的綠能政策是有相當大的問題，台電原本是資優生，現在台電員工在看醫生，我真的拜託部長有機會去台電走走，問問台電那些基層員工的心聲，其實他們的壓力都很大，而且他們對現在臺灣的能源政策，其實都認為現在中央是沒有聽到地方或是基層人民的心聲。","接下來下一個問題，我要來請教有關於地方重要交通的捷運，也是最後一個問題，我們中和有一個環狀捷運線，新聞有報花了14.9億，增加了大概4億的預算，現在新北市政府的災害預備金已經不足了，所以拜託我們交通部的部分，如果新北市真的錢不夠，拜託中央的部分要依照相關的法令來補貼，再拜託一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再請交通部跟新北市政府來做溝通。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第16位麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","張智倫","麥玉珍","鍾佳濱","羅智強","王定宇","牛煦庭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","郭國文","邱鎮軍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","郭昱晴","高金素梅","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","王美惠"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138801_00004"}}}