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\"既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 735.219, \"end\": 735.319, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 735.319, \"end\": 735.499, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 735.499, \"end\": 735.619, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 735.619, \"end\": 735.839, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 735.839, \"end\": 735.939, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 735.939, \"end\": 736.099, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 736.099, \"end\": 737.04, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 737.04, \"end\": 737.38, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 737.38, \"end\": 737.5, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 737.5, \"end\": 737.96, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 751.205, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 751.205, \"end\": 751.325, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 751.325, \"end\": 751.525, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 751.525, \"end\": 751.625, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 751.625, \"end\": 751.785, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 751.785, \"end\": 752.005, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 752.005, \"end\": 752.206, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 752.206, \"end\": 753.046, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 753.046, \"end\": 753.186, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 753.186, \"end\": 753.566, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 753.566, \"end\": 753.686, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 753.686, \"end\": 753.906, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 753.906, \"end\": 754.266, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 874.997, \"end\": 875.117, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 875.117, \"end\": 875.277, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 875.277, \"end\": 875.297, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 875.297, \"end\": 875.537, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 875.537, \"end\": 875.798, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 875.798, \"end\": 875.878, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 875.878, \"end\": 875.978, \"score\": 0.641}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 875.978, \"end\": 876.078, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 876.078, \"end\": 876.178, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 876.178, \"end\": 876.238, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 876.238, \"end\": 876.558, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:07,315\n謝謝主席左院長有請再請左院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:17,393 --> 00:00:41,845\n劉維豪院長辛苦了這個很高興稍微雖然草野氛圍不慕但好歹在進法補償這件事情上面看到了有一點點轉圜的契機但無論如何無論如何今天下午到底會不會復會不曉得但是我想透過這個預算答詢的過程大家把話講清楚還是非常非常有必要的所以今天本期打算用這15分鐘就好好從法理情三個角度我們來討論一下\n\n3\n00:00:42,785 --> 00:00:45,546\n這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定這個行政院必須要同意我們才能這樣修法\n\n4\n00:01:10,837 --> 00:01:37,624\n當然字眼上沒有他說是要徵詢但是另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源就增加的稅數多少錢大家要一個來源來我現在就再請問卓魁本期在內政委員會其實我們在上個會期業績不錯通過很多法案比如說民意代表知己條例上個會期其實也順利的修正通過請問院長在這個條例裡面我們有沒有特別去指明新增的裁員在哪裡\n\n5\n00:01:38,834 --> 00:01:40,387\n這個行政如果行政同意了\n\n6\n00:01:42,005 --> 00:01:42,485\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n7\n00:02:13,172 --> 00:02:29,933\n這個政策的所有事情的執行這個一定是設裁員嘛對不對但是不是每一件事情他都一定要用修法表明的方式所以我想院長你在這個地方去主張就是說你一定要續名裁員的時候其實反而在實務上的見解來講他其實是不適用的難道不是這樣嗎\n\n8\n00:02:30,845 --> 00:02:54,611\n我們處理的方式如果像剛剛委員所提的那幾個案子我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面或者放在我們的預算報告裡面那這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容程序預算把它形成一個政策可以執行那就有資金的來源那如果沒有在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊那就是在\n\n9\n00:02:55,111 --> 00:02:55,812\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n10\n00:03:14,825 --> 00:03:36,359\n可是我也要跟院長直接條明的講法案審查的時候不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識那不然我們在立法院這裏面表決器幹嘛呢對不對所以沒有共識的時候那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決那我要請問院長在這個修法的整個過程中從委員會的審查進到黨團協商最後交付這個大院表決有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序應該沒有對不對\n\n11\n00:03:38,652 --> 00:04:06,822\n如果經過很嚴謹的程序,那就是法律,我們就必須遵守。對,所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講,通過的是叫進法補償條例。即便憲法有講立法院不得為預算案增加之支出,這本席同意,但進法補償條例是法律案,也不是預算案,對不對?本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚,不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道,也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人。我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重,這個我希望,\n\n12\n00:04:07,842 --> 00:04:36,157\n這個左院長必須要了解立法院的立場如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話變成形成一定要你行政院同意的慣例那其實對於立法院是一種矮化對於台灣的憲政發展來講也不是一件正面的事情啦好我是希望能夠互相的尊重把一個法案討論到最成熟因為這個牽涉到預算錢從哪裡來是很重要等一下我們在理的部分會討論一下預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作這個\n\n13\n00:04:38,666 --> 00:04:44,453\n再退萬不言我們今天就把話一次破到底真的行政院沒有同意嗎來我們看一下影片\n\n14\n00:04:45,530 --> 00:04:46,531\n主計長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:16,171 --> 00:05:37,103\n委員長雖然速度有點快沒關係我幫你整理好這個時序3月1號吳立華委員的總諮詢就是講說金額要明定在法律透過法律的研議來辦理而這行政院長當初的陳建仁院長是同意的這個主計長陳建仁朱哲銘前主計長也講說經費符合法令任農編債預算我們就來照章執行3月5號高金素美委員總諮詢一樣是行政院長陳建仁\n\n16\n00:05:37,483 --> 00:05:59,201\n打詢說修法通過,我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在512號黨團協商的過程中,高金素美委員召集原民會副主委古仲,講說,倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過,我們就要依法來編列,希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中,行政方難道沒有同意嗎?院長\n\n17\n00:06:00,863 --> 00:06:14,618\n剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快我也聽得出來大家聽得出來文字上聲明也有講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若就是他設定了很多的條件如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣所以這個必須要\n\n18\n00:06:15,806 --> 00:06:34,820\n滿足這個程序阿剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過阿法律通過了沒我們剛剛講了嘛經過了嚴謹的程序三讀通過那當然就應該要執行就法論法你如果講說哪一條法律明定你要同意然後我們硬要衝突那當然就是一個我們站不住腳可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意我們有沒有徵詢有沒有討論其實都有\n\n19\n00:06:36,841 --> 00:06:58,917\n前朝同意難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎?這樣恐怕有失風範所以從法律的角度我想這是一個與法有據的事情也沒什麼好爭議的我們今天就把話講清楚行政院在本案其實早就同意而且其實院長你也常常講政策其實都是有延續性的喜歡或不喜歡多少要有點承擔\n\n20\n00:06:59,877 --> 00:07:20,565\n如果說這個事情有雙標,恐怕是不太好的事情。從法律的角度我們要提醒卓院長。第二個部分我們要從理的角度來論述一下這個禁法補償的道理。首先談預算的從編跟修正過去的一些案例。很多人講說預算連續阻擋,好像都是在野黨的責任一樣。當然民意調查不這麼認為。\n\n21\n00:07:21,365 --> 00:07:48,319\n是因為現在時代很發達大家都可以把話講得非常清楚因為我們遵循憲法這個70條不得為預算之增加我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候我再講說哎呀這20億不夠我把它改成40億那就違憲了所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋的用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案\n\n22\n00:07:48,899 --> 00:08:16,582\n所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚那有沒有相關的案例呢?其實是有的啊比如說民國93年中央政府的新四大建設特別預算他就試射了一些資源的重新分配所以處理方式撤回並且提出新的相關預算案94年這個審理95年中央政府總預算的時候因為老農津貼的增加所以提出了相關的修正97年同樣擴大內需的公共建設的特別預算案也一樣都有試射預算內容跟科目的調整\n\n23\n00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:32,396\n所以一樣是提出修正到101年的中央政府總預算老農今天再次提高一樣用修正案的方式來處理所以說我們之所以沒有辦法讓他那麼早復違是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案\n\n24\n00:08:33,237 --> 00:08:55,186\n既然法有明文前朝也承諾那這院長本來就要有所承擔必須要提出編列的項目好我知道院長你可能要講這個是裁員可能很短促或者是壓力很大這本來就不能理解但是認真說起來如果我們從這幾年預算光看中央政府預算的執行角度其實不會沒有裁員為什麼呢112年的決算這個稅計剩餘是5億8千萬中間還有保留了10億\n\n25\n00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:16,552\n加起來其實就15億啊就你沒有執行完的預算在你中央政府這一大包幾千億的預算裡面沒有執行完的就十幾億啊特別這個前瞻計畫為什麼會跑出第5期不也是因為預算沒有執行完所以我用第5期的方式來做處理嗎\n\n26\n00:09:17,173 --> 00:09:41,948\n到了今年113年我們正在執行的預算到第三季也就是到9月的統計資料有17個部會還有超過15億以上的勝利原民會還有25.88億的勝利當然院長你會講這個還有一季嘛有一季完之後大家就會趕工就把它執行完畢但本期今天要提這個概念其實只是講這麼一大包的中央預算三兆多兩兆多三兆多的預算如果\n\n27\n00:09:43,209 --> 00:10:12,869\n稍作檢討,可以節省的案子節省一下對不對,可以調整的項目做一下調整二十億相較於三兆兩千億它其實是非常非常小的數字啊它甚至都不構成你前面講的這個預算稅數的大幅增加我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看所以不會有裁員的問題啊只要政府願意花一點點心思稍微檢討一下各部會哪一些地方可以省一省是不是這個二十億的裁員就跑出來了就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎\n\n28\n00:10:14,090 --> 00:10:30,724\n委員說的對的一部分因為從數字算數問題來看確實可以如此但是如果從原則問題來看那斷不可這樣子做因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算\n\n29\n00:10:32,185 --> 00:10:47,639\n如果這個形成一個可行的慣例將來行政院的施政報告那變成廢紙一張了你擔心形成慣例這個事情我們最後的時候花一點點時間來做討論但我現在目前講的是其實技術上或者是從金額的角度來出發我們純粹就預算的調度\n\n30\n00:10:49,160 --> 00:11:16,685\n算數問題是可以解釋但是原則問題是不可以改變的因為你的原則是政治問題我們最後的時間再來處理那既然其實你都談到了這個預算可行其實本質上其實它就是個分配問題今天大家去談淨法補償大家積極的幫原住民爭取預算其實這是不分朝野的大家用意是什麼呢我們希望對原住民好一點嘛院長你有沒有了解一下說原民的這個總預算佔總預算的比例是多少\n\n31\n00:11:18,188 --> 00:11:26,453\n明年度我們編了124億對不對?那比例是多少?那在增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔!真的嗎?來!數字在這裡齁!這個113年總預算2,800億、原民會預算109億這個0.38億\n\n32\n00:11:35,834 --> 00:11:59,835\n再往前其實歷年來都差不了多少啦多的時候到百分之0.4不是4%是0.4%一%都不到半%都不到這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊我們賴信德總統曾經講我要當原住民的朋友我一直和原住民站在一起其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益但是什麼樣叫更好的權益為什麼大家講說\n\n33\n00:12:00,856 --> 00:12:14,181\n不能夠不能夠把這樣子的一個這個預算編在基金裡面來執行其實就是因為基金本來他也就是要幫原住民做事的開支嘛如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話他其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠\n\n34\n00:12:15,219 --> 00:12:35,527\n既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長\n\n35\n00:12:36,260 --> 00:13:05,152\n我會歡迎也支持我們在政策的討論上從政策來討論之後彼此共同找出一個裁員像剛剛委員所說的我們用基金有委員有意見我們用二倍金有意見我們用最佳預算也有意見所以這個資金的來源到現在如何解決我希望我們能夠再透過朝野的協商找出一個大家都接受那我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範原則底下這次找一個如何能夠解決接受的方案\n\n36\n00:13:06,453 --> 00:13:26,988\n這我也幫院長稍微算了一下雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面但是即便增加因為你今年編明年的預算的時候你的進法補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億撥給基金從基金的部分支出嘛那至少收支是對列的之所以之前講說不能夠挪在基金裡面是因為他收支沒有辦法平衡啊久而久之基金就掏空了\n\n37\n00:13:27,548 --> 00:13:44,147\n好,現在由公務預算來支持基金,它現在是對列的狀態,但是你沒有編組嘛,現在就是個問題,叫28億,如果把28億調漲成,就是按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話,還會增加13億左右的開支,即便把這個原住民的預算再增加13億,這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%\n\n38\n00:13:48,752 --> 00:13:53,496\n真的不是一筆大錢,但是對於原住民朋友來講,他其實是很溫暖。最後還有一分鐘的時間,當然就談政治的問題。很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理,但是我始終覺得行政段要負更多一點的責任。\n\n39\n00:14:10,791 --> 00:14:34,241\n為什麼這樣說呢?立法院狀況本來就很複雜,各黨黨團有不同的意見。立法權分拆在113個委員的手上,可是行政權是相對集中的。享有相對集中優勢的人難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎?所以我想喔,院長當初上台的時候其實本身期待你是一個通情達理的人嘛。在以前政治人物的人設裡面,你也是善於溝通,不見得占第一線這樣的角色。\n\n40\n00:14:34,997 --> 00:14:53,432\n那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行\n\n41\n00:14:53,812 --> 00:15:22,450\n那是不是有一個更清楚的方案比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出經過什麼樣的一個情況取得三黨的共識這個預算的僵局也許就解開了那請問院長有沒有具體的方案我們除了原民會的說明之外我一直尊重大院內部所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好或者是性態也好這裡面都寫得出來了好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢\n\n42\n00:15:25,407 --> 00:15:26,414\n接下來請登記第21位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4829\t7315\t謝謝主席 左院長有請再請左院長備詢\n17393\t41845\t劉維豪院長辛苦了這個很高興稍微雖然草野氛圍不慕但好歹在進法補償這件事情上面看到了有一點點轉圜的契機但無論如何無論如何今天下午到底會不會復會不曉得但是我想透過這個預算答詢的過程大家把話講清楚還是非常非常有必要的所以今天本期打算用這15分鐘就好好從法理情三個角度我們來討論一下\n42785\t45546\t這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定這個行政院必須要同意我們才能這樣修法\n70837\t97624\t當然字眼上沒有他說是要徵詢但是另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源就增加的稅數多少錢大家要一個來源來我現在就再請問卓魁本期在內政委員會其實我們在上個會期業績不錯通過很多法案比如說民意代表知己條例上個會期其實也順利的修正通過請問院長在這個條例裡面我們有沒有特別去指明新增的裁員在哪裡\n98834\t100387\t這個行政 如果行政同意了\n102005\t102485\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n133172\t149933\t這個政策的所有事情的執行這個一定是設裁員嘛對不對但是不是每一件事情他都一定要用修法表明的方式所以我想院長你在這個地方去主張就是說你一定要續名裁員的時候其實反而在實務上的見解來講他其實是不適用的難道不是這樣嗎\n150845\t174611\t我們處理的方式如果像剛剛委員所提的那幾個案子我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面或者放在我們的預算報告裡面那這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容程序預算把它形成一個政策可以執行那就有資金的來源那如果沒有在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊那就是在\n175111\t175812\t二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n194825\t216359\t可是我也要跟院長直接條明的講法案審查的時候不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識那不然我們在立法院這裏面表決器幹嘛呢 對不對所以沒有共識的時候那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決那我要請問院長在這個修法的整個過程中從委員會的審查進到黨團協商最後交付這個大院表決有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序應該沒有對不對\n218652\t246822\t如果經過很嚴謹的程序,那就是法律,我們就必須遵守。對,所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講,通過的是叫進法補償條例。即便憲法有講立法院不得為預算案增加之支出,這本席同意,但進法補償條例是法律案,也不是預算案,對不對?本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚,不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道,也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人。我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重,這個我希望,\n247842\t276157\t這個左院長必須要了解立法院的立場如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話變成形成一定要你行政院同意的慣例那其實對於立法院是一種矮化對於台灣的憲政發展來講也不是一件正面的事情啦好 我是希望能夠互相的尊重把一個法案討論到最成熟因為這個牽涉到預算錢從哪裡來是很重要等一下我們在理的部分會討論一下預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作這個\n278666\t284453\t再退萬不言我們今天就把話一次破到底真的行政院沒有同意嗎來我們看一下影片\n285530\t286531\t主計長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n316171\t337103\t委員長雖然速度有點快沒關係我幫你整理好這個時序3月1號吳立華委員的總諮詢就是講說金額要明定在法律透過法律的研議來辦理而這行政院長當初的陳建仁院長是同意的這個主計長陳建仁朱哲銘前主計長也講說經費符合法令任農編債預算我們就來照章執行3月5號高金素美委員總諮詢一樣是行政院長陳建仁\n337483\t359201\t打詢說修法通過,我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在512號黨團協商的過程中,高金素美委員召集原民會副主委古仲,講說,倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過,我們就要依法來編列,希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中,行政方難道沒有同意嗎?院長\n360863\t374618\t剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快我也聽得出來大家聽得出來文字上聲明也有講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若就是他設定了很多的條件如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣所以這個必須要\n375806\t394820\t滿足這個程序阿剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過阿法律通過了沒我們剛剛講了嘛經過了嚴謹的程序三讀通過那當然就應該要執行就法論法你如果講說哪一條法律明定你要同意然後我們硬要衝突那當然就是一個我們站不住腳可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意我們有沒有徵詢有沒有討論其實都有\n396841\t418917\t前朝同意難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎?這樣恐怕有失風範所以從法律的角度我想這是一個與法有據的事情也沒什麼好爭議的我們今天就把話講清楚行政院在本案其實早就同意而且其實院長你也常常講政策其實都是有延續性的喜歡或不喜歡多少要有點承擔\n419877\t440565\t如果說這個事情有雙標,恐怕是不太好的事情。從法律的角度我們要提醒卓院長。第二個部分我們要從理的角度來論述一下這個禁法補償的道理。首先談預算的從編跟修正過去的一些案例。很多人講說預算連續阻擋,好像都是在野黨的責任一樣。當然民意調查不這麼認為。\n441365\t468319\t是因為現在時代很發達大家都可以把話講得非常清楚因為我們遵循憲法這個70條不得為預算之增加我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候我再講說哎呀這20億不夠我把它改成40億那就違憲了所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋的用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案\n468899\t496582\t所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚那有沒有相關的案例呢?其實是有的啊比如說民國93年中央政府的新四大建設特別預算他就試射了一些資源的重新分配所以處理方式撤回並且提出新的相關預算案94年這個審理95年中央政府總預算的時候因為老農津貼的增加所以提出了相關的修正97年同樣擴大內需的公共建設的特別預算案也一樣都有試射預算內容跟科目的調整\n497222\t512396\t所以一樣是提出修正到101年的中央政府總預算老農今天再次提高一樣用修正案的方式來處理所以說我們之所以沒有辦法讓他那麼早復違是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案\n513237\t535186\t既然法有明文 前朝也承諾那這院長本來就要有所承擔必須要提出編列的項目好 我知道院長你可能要講這個是裁員可能很短促或者是壓力很大這本來就不能理解但是認真說起來如果我們從這幾年預算光看中央政府預算的執行角度其實不會沒有裁員為什麼呢112年的決算這個稅計剩餘是5億8千萬中間還有保留了10億\n542530\t556552\t加起來其實就15億啊就你沒有執行完的預算在你中央政府這一大包幾千億的預算裡面沒有執行完的就十幾億啊特別這個前瞻計畫為什麼會跑出第5期不也是因為預算沒有執行完所以我用第5期的方式來做處理嗎\n557173\t581948\t到了今年113年我們正在執行的預算到第三季也就是到9月的統計資料有17個部會還有超過15億以上的勝利原民會還有25.88億的勝利當然院長你會講這個還有一季嘛有一季完之後大家就會趕工就把它執行完畢但本期今天要提這個概念其實只是講這麼一大包的中央預算三兆多兩兆多三兆多的預算如果\n583209\t612869\t稍作檢討,可以節省的案子節省一下對不對,可以調整的項目做一下調整二十億相較於三兆兩千億它其實是非常非常小的數字啊它甚至都不構成你前面講的這個預算稅數的大幅增加我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看所以不會有裁員的問題啊只要政府願意花一點點心思稍微檢討一下各部會哪一些地方可以省一省是不是這個二十億的裁員就跑出來了就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎\n614090\t630724\t委員說的對的一部分因為從數字算數問題來看確實可以如此但是如果從原則問題來看那斷不可這樣子做因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算\n632185\t647639\t如果這個形成一個可行的慣例將來行政院的施政報告那變成廢紙一張了你擔心形成慣例這個事情我們最後的時候花一點點時間來做討論但我現在目前講的是其實技術上或者是從金額的角度來出發我們純粹就預算的調度\n649160\t676685\t算數問題是可以解釋但是原則問題是不可以改變的因為你的原則是政治問題我們最後的時間再來處理那既然其實你都談到了這個預算可行其實本質上其實它就是個分配問題今天大家去談淨法補償大家積極的幫原住民爭取預算其實這是不分朝野的大家用意是什麼呢我們希望對原住民好一點嘛院長你有沒有了解一下說原民的這個總預算佔總預算的比例是多少\n678188\t686453\t明年度我們編了124億對不對?那比例是多少?那在增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔!真的嗎?來!數字在這裡齁!這個113年總預算2,800億、原民會預算109億這個0.38億\n695834\t719835\t再往前其實歷年來都差不了多少啦多的時候到百分之0.4不是4%是0.4%一%都不到半%都不到這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊我們賴信德總統曾經講我要當原住民的朋友我一直和原住民站在一起其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益但是什麼樣叫更好的權益為什麼大家講說\n720856\t734181\t不能夠不能夠把這樣子的一個這個預算編在基金裡面來執行其實就是因為基金本來他也就是要幫原住民做事的開支嘛如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話他其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠\n735219\t755527\t既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長\n756260\t785152\t我會歡迎也支持我們在政策的討論上從政策來討論之後彼此共同找出一個裁員像剛剛委員所說的我們用基金有委員有意見我們用二倍金有意見我們用最佳預算也有意見所以這個資金的來源到現在如何解決我希望我們能夠再透過朝野的協商找出一個大家都接受那我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範原則底下這次找一個如何能夠解決接受的方案\n786453\t806988\t這我也幫院長稍微算了一下雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面但是即便增加因為你今年編明年的預算的時候你的進法補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億撥給基金從基金的部分支出嘛那至少收支是對列的之所以之前講說不能夠挪在基金裡面是因為他收支沒有辦法平衡啊久而久之基金就掏空了\n807548\t824147\t好,現在由公務預算來支持基金,它現在是對列的狀態,但是你沒有編組嘛,現在就是個問題,叫28億,如果把28億調漲成,就是按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話,還會增加13億左右的開支,即便把這個原住民的預算再增加13億,這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%\n828752\t833496\t真的不是一筆大錢,但是對於原住民朋友來講,他其實是很溫暖。最後還有一分鐘的時間,當然就談政治的問題。很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理,但是我始終覺得行政段要負更多一點的責任。\n850791\t874241\t為什麼這樣說呢?立法院狀況本來就很複雜,各黨黨團有不同的意見。立法權分拆在113個委員的手上,可是行政權是相對集中的。享有相對集中優勢的人難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎?所以我想喔,院長當初上台的時候其實本身期待你是一個通情達理的人嘛。在以前政治人物的人設裡面,你也是善於溝通,不見得占第一線這樣的角色。\n874997\t893432\t那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行\n893812\t922450\t那是不是有一個更清楚的方案比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出經過什麼樣的一個情況取得三黨的共識這個預算的僵局也許就解開了那請問院長有沒有具體的方案我們除了原民會的說明之外我一直尊重大院內部所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好或者是性態也好這裡面都寫得出來了好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢\n925407\t926414\t接下來請登記第21位\n","txt":"謝謝主席 左院長有請再請左院長備詢\n劉維豪院長辛苦了這個很高興稍微雖然草野氛圍不慕但好歹在進法補償這件事情上面看到了有一點點轉圜的契機但無論如何無論如何今天下午到底會不會復會不曉得但是我想透過這個預算答詢的過程大家把話講清楚還是非常非常有必要的所以今天本期打算用這15分鐘就好好從法理情三個角度我們來討論一下\n這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定這個行政院必須要同意我們才能這樣修法\n當然字眼上沒有他說是要徵詢但是另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源就增加的稅數多少錢大家要一個來源來我現在就再請問卓魁本期在內政委員會其實我們在上個會期業績不錯通過很多法案比如說民意代表知己條例上個會期其實也順利的修正通過請問院長在這個條例裡面我們有沒有特別去指明新增的裁員在哪裡\n這個行政 如果行政同意了\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n這個政策的所有事情的執行這個一定是設裁員嘛對不對但是不是每一件事情他都一定要用修法表明的方式所以我想院長你在這個地方去主張就是說你一定要續名裁員的時候其實反而在實務上的見解來講他其實是不適用的難道不是這樣嗎\n我們處理的方式如果像剛剛委員所提的那幾個案子我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面或者放在我們的預算報告裡面那這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容程序預算把它形成一個政策可以執行那就有資金的來源那如果沒有在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊那就是在\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n可是我也要跟院長直接條明的講法案審查的時候不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識那不然我們在立法院這裏面表決器幹嘛呢 對不對所以沒有共識的時候那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決那我要請問院長在這個修法的整個過程中從委員會的審查進到黨團協商最後交付這個大院表決有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序應該沒有對不對\n如果經過很嚴謹的程序,那就是法律,我們就必須遵守。對,所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講,通過的是叫進法補償條例。即便憲法有講立法院不得為預算案增加之支出,這本席同意,但進法補償條例是法律案,也不是預算案,對不對?本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚,不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道,也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人。我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重,這個我希望,\n這個左院長必須要了解立法院的立場如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話變成形成一定要你行政院同意的慣例那其實對於立法院是一種矮化對於台灣的憲政發展來講也不是一件正面的事情啦好 我是希望能夠互相的尊重把一個法案討論到最成熟因為這個牽涉到預算錢從哪裡來是很重要等一下我們在理的部分會討論一下預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作這個\n再退萬不言我們今天就把話一次破到底真的行政院沒有同意嗎來我們看一下影片\n主計長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n委員長雖然速度有點快沒關係我幫你整理好這個時序3月1號吳立華委員的總諮詢就是講說金額要明定在法律透過法律的研議來辦理而這行政院長當初的陳建仁院長是同意的這個主計長陳建仁朱哲銘前主計長也講說經費符合法令任農編債預算我們就來照章執行3月5號高金素美委員總諮詢一樣是行政院長陳建仁\n打詢說修法通過,我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在512號黨團協商的過程中,高金素美委員召集原民會副主委古仲,講說,倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過,我們就要依法來編列,希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中,行政方難道沒有同意嗎?院長\n剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快我也聽得出來大家聽得出來文字上聲明也有講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若就是他設定了很多的條件如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣所以這個必須要\n滿足這個程序阿剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過阿法律通過了沒我們剛剛講了嘛經過了嚴謹的程序三讀通過那當然就應該要執行就法論法你如果講說哪一條法律明定你要同意然後我們硬要衝突那當然就是一個我們站不住腳可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意我們有沒有徵詢有沒有討論其實都有\n前朝同意難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎?這樣恐怕有失風範所以從法律的角度我想這是一個與法有據的事情也沒什麼好爭議的我們今天就把話講清楚行政院在本案其實早就同意而且其實院長你也常常講政策其實都是有延續性的喜歡或不喜歡多少要有點承擔\n如果說這個事情有雙標,恐怕是不太好的事情。從法律的角度我們要提醒卓院長。第二個部分我們要從理的角度來論述一下這個禁法補償的道理。首先談預算的從編跟修正過去的一些案例。很多人講說預算連續阻擋,好像都是在野黨的責任一樣。當然民意調查不這麼認為。\n是因為現在時代很發達大家都可以把話講得非常清楚因為我們遵循憲法這個70條不得為預算之增加我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候我再講說哎呀這20億不夠我把它改成40億那就違憲了所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋的用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案\n所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚那有沒有相關的案例呢?其實是有的啊比如說民國93年中央政府的新四大建設特別預算他就試射了一些資源的重新分配所以處理方式撤回並且提出新的相關預算案94年這個審理95年中央政府總預算的時候因為老農津貼的增加所以提出了相關的修正97年同樣擴大內需的公共建設的特別預算案也一樣都有試射預算內容跟科目的調整\n所以一樣是提出修正到101年的中央政府總預算老農今天再次提高一樣用修正案的方式來處理所以說我們之所以沒有辦法讓他那麼早復違是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案\n既然法有明文 前朝也承諾那這院長本來就要有所承擔必須要提出編列的項目好 我知道院長你可能要講這個是裁員可能很短促或者是壓力很大這本來就不能理解但是認真說起來如果我們從這幾年預算光看中央政府預算的執行角度其實不會沒有裁員為什麼呢112年的決算這個稅計剩餘是5億8千萬中間還有保留了10億\n加起來其實就15億啊就你沒有執行完的預算在你中央政府這一大包幾千億的預算裡面沒有執行完的就十幾億啊特別這個前瞻計畫為什麼會跑出第5期不也是因為預算沒有執行完所以我用第5期的方式來做處理嗎\n到了今年113年我們正在執行的預算到第三季也就是到9月的統計資料有17個部會還有超過15億以上的勝利原民會還有25.88億的勝利當然院長你會講這個還有一季嘛有一季完之後大家就會趕工就把它執行完畢但本期今天要提這個概念其實只是講這麼一大包的中央預算三兆多兩兆多三兆多的預算如果\n稍作檢討,可以節省的案子節省一下對不對,可以調整的項目做一下調整二十億相較於三兆兩千億它其實是非常非常小的數字啊它甚至都不構成你前面講的這個預算稅數的大幅增加我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看所以不會有裁員的問題啊只要政府願意花一點點心思稍微檢討一下各部會哪一些地方可以省一省是不是這個二十億的裁員就跑出來了就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎\n委員說的對的一部分因為從數字算數問題來看確實可以如此但是如果從原則問題來看那斷不可這樣子做因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算\n如果這個形成一個可行的慣例將來行政院的施政報告那變成廢紙一張了你擔心形成慣例這個事情我們最後的時候花一點點時間來做討論但我現在目前講的是其實技術上或者是從金額的角度來出發我們純粹就預算的調度\n算數問題是可以解釋但是原則問題是不可以改變的因為你的原則是政治問題我們最後的時間再來處理那既然其實你都談到了這個預算可行其實本質上其實它就是個分配問題今天大家去談淨法補償大家積極的幫原住民爭取預算其實這是不分朝野的大家用意是什麼呢我們希望對原住民好一點嘛院長你有沒有了解一下說原民的這個總預算佔總預算的比例是多少\n明年度我們編了124億對不對?那比例是多少?那在增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔!真的嗎?來!數字在這裡齁!這個113年總預算2,800億、原民會預算109億這個0.38億\n再往前其實歷年來都差不了多少啦多的時候到百分之0.4不是4%是0.4%一%都不到半%都不到這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊我們賴信德總統曾經講我要當原住民的朋友我一直和原住民站在一起其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益但是什麼樣叫更好的權益為什麼大家講說\n不能夠不能夠把這樣子的一個這個預算編在基金裡面來執行其實就是因為基金本來他也就是要幫原住民做事的開支嘛如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話他其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠\n既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長\n我會歡迎也支持我們在政策的討論上從政策來討論之後彼此共同找出一個裁員像剛剛委員所說的我們用基金有委員有意見我們用二倍金有意見我們用最佳預算也有意見所以這個資金的來源到現在如何解決我希望我們能夠再透過朝野的協商找出一個大家都接受那我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範原則底下這次找一個如何能夠解決接受的方案\n這我也幫院長稍微算了一下雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面但是即便增加因為你今年編明年的預算的時候你的進法補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億撥給基金從基金的部分支出嘛那至少收支是對列的之所以之前講說不能夠挪在基金裡面是因為他收支沒有辦法平衡啊久而久之基金就掏空了\n好,現在由公務預算來支持基金,它現在是對列的狀態,但是你沒有編組嘛,現在就是個問題,叫28億,如果把28億調漲成,就是按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話,還會增加13億左右的開支,即便把這個原住民的預算再增加13億,這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%\n真的不是一筆大錢,但是對於原住民朋友來講,他其實是很溫暖。最後還有一分鐘的時間,當然就談政治的問題。很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理,但是我始終覺得行政段要負更多一點的責任。\n為什麼這樣說呢?立法院狀況本來就很複雜,各黨黨團有不同的意見。立法權分拆在113個委員的手上,可是行政權是相對集中的。享有相對集中優勢的人難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎?所以我想喔,院長當初上台的時候其實本身期待你是一個通情達理的人嘛。在以前政治人物的人設裡面,你也是善於溝通,不見得占第一線這樣的角色。\n那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行\n那是不是有一個更清楚的方案比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出經過什麼樣的一個情況取得三黨的共識這個預算的僵局也許就解開了那請問院長有沒有具體的方案我們除了原民會的說明之外我一直尊重大院內部所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好或者是性態也好這裡面都寫得出來了好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢\n接下來請登記第21位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.829 --> 00:07.315\n謝謝主席左院長有請再請左院長備詢\n\n00:17.393 --> 00:41.845\n劉維豪院長辛苦了這個很高興稍微雖然草野氛圍不慕但好歹在進法補償這件事情上面看到了有一點點轉圜的契機但無論如何無論如何今天下午到底會不會復會不曉得但是我想透過這個預算答詢的過程大家把話講清楚還是非常非常有必要的所以今天本期打算用這15分鐘就好好從法理情三個角度我們來討論一下\n\n00:42.785 --> 00:45.546\n這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定這個行政院必須要同意我們才能這樣修法\n\n01:10.837 --> 01:37.624\n當然字眼上沒有他說是要徵詢但是另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源就增加的稅數多少錢大家要一個來源來我現在就再請問卓魁本期在內政委員會其實我們在上個會期業績不錯通過很多法案比如說民意代表知己條例上個會期其實也順利的修正通過請問院長在這個條例裡面我們有沒有特別去指明新增的裁員在哪裡\n\n01:38.834 --> 01:40.387\n這個行政如果行政同意了\n\n01:42.005 --> 01:42.485\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n02:13.172 --> 02:29.933\n這個政策的所有事情的執行這個一定是設裁員嘛對不對但是不是每一件事情他都一定要用修法表明的方式所以我想院長你在這個地方去主張就是說你一定要續名裁員的時候其實反而在實務上的見解來講他其實是不適用的難道不是這樣嗎\n\n02:30.845 --> 02:54.611\n我們處理的方式如果像剛剛委員所提的那幾個案子我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面或者放在我們的預算報告裡面那這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容程序預算把它形成一個政策可以執行那就有資金的來源那如果沒有在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊那就是在\n\n02:55.111 --> 02:55.812\n二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n\n03:14.825 --> 03:36.359\n可是我也要跟院長直接條明的講法案審查的時候不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識那不然我們在立法院這裏面表決器幹嘛呢對不對所以沒有共識的時候那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決那我要請問院長在這個修法的整個過程中從委員會的審查進到黨團協商最後交付這個大院表決有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序應該沒有對不對\n\n03:38.652 --> 04:06.822\n如果經過很嚴謹的程序,那就是法律,我們就必須遵守。對,所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講,通過的是叫進法補償條例。即便憲法有講立法院不得為預算案增加之支出,這本席同意,但進法補償條例是法律案,也不是預算案,對不對?本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚,不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道,也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人。我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重,這個我希望,\n\n04:07.842 --> 04:36.157\n這個左院長必須要了解立法院的立場如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話變成形成一定要你行政院同意的慣例那其實對於立法院是一種矮化對於台灣的憲政發展來講也不是一件正面的事情啦好我是希望能夠互相的尊重把一個法案討論到最成熟因為這個牽涉到預算錢從哪裡來是很重要等一下我們在理的部分會討論一下預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作這個\n\n04:38.666 --> 04:44.453\n再退萬不言我們今天就把話一次破到底真的行政院沒有同意嗎來我們看一下影片\n\n04:45.530 --> 04:46.531\n主計長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n\n05:16.171 --> 05:37.103\n委員長雖然速度有點快沒關係我幫你整理好這個時序3月1號吳立華委員的總諮詢就是講說金額要明定在法律透過法律的研議來辦理而這行政院長當初的陳建仁院長是同意的這個主計長陳建仁朱哲銘前主計長也講說經費符合法令任農編債預算我們就來照章執行3月5號高金素美委員總諮詢一樣是行政院長陳建仁\n\n05:37.483 --> 05:59.201\n打詢說修法通過,我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在512號黨團協商的過程中,高金素美委員召集原民會副主委古仲,講說,倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過,我們就要依法來編列,希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中,行政方難道沒有同意嗎?院長\n\n06:00.863 --> 06:14.618\n剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快我也聽得出來大家聽得出來文字上聲明也有講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若就是他設定了很多的條件如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣所以這個必須要\n\n06:15.806 --> 06:34.820\n滿足這個程序阿剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過阿法律通過了沒我們剛剛講了嘛經過了嚴謹的程序三讀通過那當然就應該要執行就法論法你如果講說哪一條法律明定你要同意然後我們硬要衝突那當然就是一個我們站不住腳可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意我們有沒有徵詢有沒有討論其實都有\n\n06:36.841 --> 06:58.917\n前朝同意難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎?這樣恐怕有失風範所以從法律的角度我想這是一個與法有據的事情也沒什麼好爭議的我們今天就把話講清楚行政院在本案其實早就同意而且其實院長你也常常講政策其實都是有延續性的喜歡或不喜歡多少要有點承擔\n\n06:59.877 --> 07:20.565\n如果說這個事情有雙標,恐怕是不太好的事情。從法律的角度我們要提醒卓院長。第二個部分我們要從理的角度來論述一下這個禁法補償的道理。首先談預算的從編跟修正過去的一些案例。很多人講說預算連續阻擋,好像都是在野黨的責任一樣。當然民意調查不這麼認為。\n\n07:21.365 --> 07:48.319\n是因為現在時代很發達大家都可以把話講得非常清楚因為我們遵循憲法這個70條不得為預算之增加我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候我再講說哎呀這20億不夠我把它改成40億那就違憲了所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋的用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案\n\n07:48.899 --> 08:16.582\n所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚那有沒有相關的案例呢?其實是有的啊比如說民國93年中央政府的新四大建設特別預算他就試射了一些資源的重新分配所以處理方式撤回並且提出新的相關預算案94年這個審理95年中央政府總預算的時候因為老農津貼的增加所以提出了相關的修正97年同樣擴大內需的公共建設的特別預算案也一樣都有試射預算內容跟科目的調整\n\n08:17.222 --> 08:32.396\n所以一樣是提出修正到101年的中央政府總預算老農今天再次提高一樣用修正案的方式來處理所以說我們之所以沒有辦法讓他那麼早復違是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案\n\n08:33.237 --> 08:55.186\n既然法有明文前朝也承諾那這院長本來就要有所承擔必須要提出編列的項目好我知道院長你可能要講這個是裁員可能很短促或者是壓力很大這本來就不能理解但是認真說起來如果我們從這幾年預算光看中央政府預算的執行角度其實不會沒有裁員為什麼呢112年的決算這個稅計剩餘是5億8千萬中間還有保留了10億\n\n09:02.530 --> 09:16.552\n加起來其實就15億啊就你沒有執行完的預算在你中央政府這一大包幾千億的預算裡面沒有執行完的就十幾億啊特別這個前瞻計畫為什麼會跑出第5期不也是因為預算沒有執行完所以我用第5期的方式來做處理嗎\n\n09:17.173 --> 09:41.948\n到了今年113年我們正在執行的預算到第三季也就是到9月的統計資料有17個部會還有超過15億以上的勝利原民會還有25.88億的勝利當然院長你會講這個還有一季嘛有一季完之後大家就會趕工就把它執行完畢但本期今天要提這個概念其實只是講這麼一大包的中央預算三兆多兩兆多三兆多的預算如果\n\n09:43.209 --> 10:12.869\n稍作檢討,可以節省的案子節省一下對不對,可以調整的項目做一下調整二十億相較於三兆兩千億它其實是非常非常小的數字啊它甚至都不構成你前面講的這個預算稅數的大幅增加我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看所以不會有裁員的問題啊只要政府願意花一點點心思稍微檢討一下各部會哪一些地方可以省一省是不是這個二十億的裁員就跑出來了就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎\n\n10:14.090 --> 10:30.724\n委員說的對的一部分因為從數字算數問題來看確實可以如此但是如果從原則問題來看那斷不可這樣子做因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算\n\n10:32.185 --> 10:47.639\n如果這個形成一個可行的慣例將來行政院的施政報告那變成廢紙一張了你擔心形成慣例這個事情我們最後的時候花一點點時間來做討論但我現在目前講的是其實技術上或者是從金額的角度來出發我們純粹就預算的調度\n\n10:49.160 --> 11:16.685\n算數問題是可以解釋但是原則問題是不可以改變的因為你的原則是政治問題我們最後的時間再來處理那既然其實你都談到了這個預算可行其實本質上其實它就是個分配問題今天大家去談淨法補償大家積極的幫原住民爭取預算其實這是不分朝野的大家用意是什麼呢我們希望對原住民好一點嘛院長你有沒有了解一下說原民的這個總預算佔總預算的比例是多少\n\n11:18.188 --> 11:26.453\n明年度我們編了124億對不對?那比例是多少?那在增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔!真的嗎?來!數字在這裡齁!這個113年總預算2,800億、原民會預算109億這個0.38億\n\n11:35.834 --> 11:59.835\n再往前其實歷年來都差不了多少啦多的時候到百分之0.4不是4%是0.4%一%都不到半%都不到這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊我們賴信德總統曾經講我要當原住民的朋友我一直和原住民站在一起其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益但是什麼樣叫更好的權益為什麼大家講說\n\n12:00.856 --> 12:14.181\n不能夠不能夠把這樣子的一個這個預算編在基金裡面來執行其實就是因為基金本來他也就是要幫原住民做事的開支嘛如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話他其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠\n\n12:15.219 --> 12:35.527\n既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長\n\n12:36.260 --> 13:05.152\n我會歡迎也支持我們在政策的討論上從政策來討論之後彼此共同找出一個裁員像剛剛委員所說的我們用基金有委員有意見我們用二倍金有意見我們用最佳預算也有意見所以這個資金的來源到現在如何解決我希望我們能夠再透過朝野的協商找出一個大家都接受那我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範原則底下這次找一個如何能夠解決接受的方案\n\n13:06.453 --> 13:26.988\n這我也幫院長稍微算了一下雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面但是即便增加因為你今年編明年的預算的時候你的進法補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億撥給基金從基金的部分支出嘛那至少收支是對列的之所以之前講說不能夠挪在基金裡面是因為他收支沒有辦法平衡啊久而久之基金就掏空了\n\n13:27.548 --> 13:44.147\n好,現在由公務預算來支持基金,它現在是對列的狀態,但是你沒有編組嘛,現在就是個問題,叫28億,如果把28億調漲成,就是按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話,還會增加13億左右的開支,即便把這個原住民的預算再增加13億,這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%\n\n13:48.752 --> 13:53.496\n真的不是一筆大錢,但是對於原住民朋友來講,他其實是很溫暖。最後還有一分鐘的時間,當然就談政治的問題。很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理,但是我始終覺得行政段要負更多一點的責任。\n\n14:10.791 --> 14:34.241\n為什麼這樣說呢?立法院狀況本來就很複雜,各黨黨團有不同的意見。立法權分拆在113個委員的手上,可是行政權是相對集中的。享有相對集中優勢的人難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎?所以我想喔,院長當初上台的時候其實本身期待你是一個通情達理的人嘛。在以前政治人物的人設裡面,你也是善於溝通,不見得占第一線這樣的角色。\n\n14:34.997 --> 14:53.432\n那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行\n\n14:53.812 --> 15:22.450\n那是不是有一個更清楚的方案比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出經過什麼樣的一個情況取得三黨的共識這個預算的僵局也許就解開了那請問院長有沒有具體的方案我們除了原民會的說明之外我一直尊重大院內部所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好或者是性態也好這裡面都寫得出來了好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢\n\n15:25.407 --> 15:26.414\n接下來請登記第21位\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.829,"end":7.315,"text":"謝謝主席 左院長有請再請左院長備詢"},{"start":17.393,"end":41.845,"text":"劉維豪院長辛苦了這個很高興稍微雖然草野氛圍不慕但好歹在進法補償這件事情上面看到了有一點點轉圜的契機但無論如何無論如何今天下午到底會不會復會不曉得但是我想透過這個預算答詢的過程大家把話講清楚還是非常非常有必要的所以今天本期打算用這15分鐘就好好從法理情三個角度我們來討論一下"},{"start":42.785,"end":45.546,"text":"這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定這個行政院必須要同意我們才能這樣修法"},{"start":70.837,"end":97.624,"text":"當然字眼上沒有他說是要徵詢但是另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源就增加的稅數多少錢大家要一個來源來我現在就再請問卓魁本期在內政委員會其實我們在上個會期業績不錯通過很多法案比如說民意代表知己條例上個會期其實也順利的修正通過請問院長在這個條例裡面我們有沒有特別去指明新增的裁員在哪裡"},{"start":98.834,"end":100.387,"text":"這個行政 如果行政同意了"},{"start":102.005,"end":102.485,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":133.172,"end":149.933,"text":"這個政策的所有事情的執行這個一定是設裁員嘛對不對但是不是每一件事情他都一定要用修法表明的方式所以我想院長你在這個地方去主張就是說你一定要續名裁員的時候其實反而在實務上的見解來講他其實是不適用的難道不是這樣嗎"},{"start":150.845,"end":174.611,"text":"我們處理的方式如果像剛剛委員所提的那幾個案子我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面或者放在我們的預算報告裡面那這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容程序預算把它形成一個政策可以執行那就有資金的來源那如果沒有在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊那就是在"},{"start":175.111,"end":175.812,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":194.825,"end":216.359,"text":"可是我也要跟院長直接條明的講法案審查的時候不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識那不然我們在立法院這裏面表決器幹嘛呢 對不對所以沒有共識的時候那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決那我要請問院長在這個修法的整個過程中從委員會的審查進到黨團協商最後交付這個大院表決有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序應該沒有對不對"},{"start":218.652,"end":246.822,"text":"如果經過很嚴謹的程序,那就是法律,我們就必須遵守。對,所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講,通過的是叫進法補償條例。即便憲法有講立法院不得為預算案增加之支出,這本席同意,但進法補償條例是法律案,也不是預算案,對不對?本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚,不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道,也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人。我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重,這個我希望,"},{"start":247.842,"end":276.157,"text":"這個左院長必須要了解立法院的立場如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話變成形成一定要你行政院同意的慣例那其實對於立法院是一種矮化對於台灣的憲政發展來講也不是一件正面的事情啦好 我是希望能夠互相的尊重把一個法案討論到最成熟因為這個牽涉到預算錢從哪裡來是很重要等一下我們在理的部分會討論一下預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作這個"},{"start":278.666,"end":284.453,"text":"再退萬不言我們今天就把話一次破到底真的行政院沒有同意嗎來我們看一下影片"},{"start":285.53,"end":286.531,"text":"主計長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?"},{"start":316.171,"end":337.103,"text":"委員長雖然速度有點快沒關係我幫你整理好這個時序3月1號吳立華委員的總諮詢就是講說金額要明定在法律透過法律的研議來辦理而這行政院長當初的陳建仁院長是同意的這個主計長陳建仁朱哲銘前主計長也講說經費符合法令任農編債預算我們就來照章執行3月5號高金素美委員總諮詢一樣是行政院長陳建仁"},{"start":337.483,"end":359.201,"text":"打詢說修法通過,我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在512號黨團協商的過程中,高金素美委員召集原民會副主委古仲,講說,倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過,我們就要依法來編列,希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中,行政方難道沒有同意嗎?院長"},{"start":360.863,"end":374.618,"text":"剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快我也聽得出來大家聽得出來文字上聲明也有講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若就是他設定了很多的條件如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣所以這個必須要"},{"start":375.806,"end":394.82,"text":"滿足這個程序阿剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過阿法律通過了沒我們剛剛講了嘛經過了嚴謹的程序三讀通過那當然就應該要執行就法論法你如果講說哪一條法律明定你要同意然後我們硬要衝突那當然就是一個我們站不住腳可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意我們有沒有徵詢有沒有討論其實都有"},{"start":396.841,"end":418.917,"text":"前朝同意難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎?這樣恐怕有失風範所以從法律的角度我想這是一個與法有據的事情也沒什麼好爭議的我們今天就把話講清楚行政院在本案其實早就同意而且其實院長你也常常講政策其實都是有延續性的喜歡或不喜歡多少要有點承擔"},{"start":419.877,"end":440.565,"text":"如果說這個事情有雙標,恐怕是不太好的事情。從法律的角度我們要提醒卓院長。第二個部分我們要從理的角度來論述一下這個禁法補償的道理。首先談預算的從編跟修正過去的一些案例。很多人講說預算連續阻擋,好像都是在野黨的責任一樣。當然民意調查不這麼認為。"},{"start":441.365,"end":468.319,"text":"是因為現在時代很發達大家都可以把話講得非常清楚因為我們遵循憲法這個70條不得為預算之增加我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候我再講說哎呀這20億不夠我把它改成40億那就違憲了所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋的用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案"},{"start":468.899,"end":496.582,"text":"所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚那有沒有相關的案例呢?其實是有的啊比如說民國93年中央政府的新四大建設特別預算他就試射了一些資源的重新分配所以處理方式撤回並且提出新的相關預算案94年這個審理95年中央政府總預算的時候因為老農津貼的增加所以提出了相關的修正97年同樣擴大內需的公共建設的特別預算案也一樣都有試射預算內容跟科目的調整"},{"start":497.222,"end":512.396,"text":"所以一樣是提出修正到101年的中央政府總預算老農今天再次提高一樣用修正案的方式來處理所以說我們之所以沒有辦法讓他那麼早復違是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案"},{"start":513.237,"end":535.186,"text":"既然法有明文 前朝也承諾那這院長本來就要有所承擔必須要提出編列的項目好 我知道院長你可能要講這個是裁員可能很短促或者是壓力很大這本來就不能理解但是認真說起來如果我們從這幾年預算光看中央政府預算的執行角度其實不會沒有裁員為什麼呢112年的決算這個稅計剩餘是5億8千萬中間還有保留了10億"},{"start":542.53,"end":556.552,"text":"加起來其實就15億啊就你沒有執行完的預算在你中央政府這一大包幾千億的預算裡面沒有執行完的就十幾億啊特別這個前瞻計畫為什麼會跑出第5期不也是因為預算沒有執行完所以我用第5期的方式來做處理嗎"},{"start":557.173,"end":581.948,"text":"到了今年113年我們正在執行的預算到第三季也就是到9月的統計資料有17個部會還有超過15億以上的勝利原民會還有25.88億的勝利當然院長你會講這個還有一季嘛有一季完之後大家就會趕工就把它執行完畢但本期今天要提這個概念其實只是講這麼一大包的中央預算三兆多兩兆多三兆多的預算如果"},{"start":583.209,"end":612.869,"text":"稍作檢討,可以節省的案子節省一下對不對,可以調整的項目做一下調整二十億相較於三兆兩千億它其實是非常非常小的數字啊它甚至都不構成你前面講的這個預算稅數的大幅增加我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看所以不會有裁員的問題啊只要政府願意花一點點心思稍微檢討一下各部會哪一些地方可以省一省是不是這個二十億的裁員就跑出來了就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎"},{"start":614.09,"end":630.724,"text":"委員說的對的一部分因為從數字算數問題來看確實可以如此但是如果從原則問題來看那斷不可這樣子做因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算"},{"start":632.185,"end":647.639,"text":"如果這個形成一個可行的慣例將來行政院的施政報告那變成廢紙一張了你擔心形成慣例這個事情我們最後的時候花一點點時間來做討論但我現在目前講的是其實技術上或者是從金額的角度來出發我們純粹就預算的調度"},{"start":649.16,"end":676.685,"text":"算數問題是可以解釋但是原則問題是不可以改變的因為你的原則是政治問題我們最後的時間再來處理那既然其實你都談到了這個預算可行其實本質上其實它就是個分配問題今天大家去談淨法補償大家積極的幫原住民爭取預算其實這是不分朝野的大家用意是什麼呢我們希望對原住民好一點嘛院長你有沒有了解一下說原民的這個總預算佔總預算的比例是多少"},{"start":678.188,"end":686.453,"text":"明年度我們編了124億對不對?那比例是多少?那在增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔!真的嗎?來!數字在這裡齁!這個113年總預算2,800億、原民會預算109億這個0.38億"},{"start":695.834,"end":719.835,"text":"再往前其實歷年來都差不了多少啦多的時候到百分之0.4不是4%是0.4%一%都不到半%都不到這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊我們賴信德總統曾經講我要當原住民的朋友我一直和原住民站在一起其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益但是什麼樣叫更好的權益為什麼大家講說"},{"start":720.856,"end":734.181,"text":"不能夠不能夠把這樣子的一個這個預算編在基金裡面來執行其實就是因為基金本來他也就是要幫原住民做事的開支嘛如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話他其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠"},{"start":735.219,"end":755.527,"text":"既然今天不管是這個五黨級的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員大家去談進法補償的時候都是希望在透過法令的修正之後政府能夠多撥一點預算改變分配的邏輯加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注這個才是政策的本意嘛這個我想也是情有可原不是嗎院長"},{"start":756.26,"end":785.152,"text":"我會歡迎也支持我們在政策的討論上從政策來討論之後彼此共同找出一個裁員像剛剛委員所說的我們用基金有委員有意見我們用二倍金有意見我們用最佳預算也有意見所以這個資金的來源到現在如何解決我希望我們能夠再透過朝野的協商找出一個大家都接受那我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範原則底下這次找一個如何能夠解決接受的方案"},{"start":786.453,"end":806.988,"text":"這我也幫院長稍微算了一下雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面但是即便增加因為你今年編明年的預算的時候你的進法補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億撥給基金從基金的部分支出嘛那至少收支是對列的之所以之前講說不能夠挪在基金裡面是因為他收支沒有辦法平衡啊久而久之基金就掏空了"},{"start":807.548,"end":824.147,"text":"好,現在由公務預算來支持基金,它現在是對列的狀態,但是你沒有編組嘛,現在就是個問題,叫28億,如果把28億調漲成,就是按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話,還會增加13億左右的開支,即便把這個原住民的預算再增加13億,這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%"},{"start":828.752,"end":833.496,"text":"真的不是一筆大錢,但是對於原住民朋友來講,他其實是很溫暖。最後還有一分鐘的時間,當然就談政治的問題。很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理,但是我始終覺得行政段要負更多一點的責任。"},{"start":850.791,"end":874.241,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢?立法院狀況本來就很複雜,各黨黨團有不同的意見。立法權分拆在113個委員的手上,可是行政權是相對集中的。享有相對集中優勢的人難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎?所以我想喔,院長當初上台的時候其實本身期待你是一個通情達理的人嘛。在以前政治人物的人設裡面,你也是善於溝通,不見得占第一線這樣的角色。"},{"start":874.997,"end":893.432,"text":"那我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的一個心態好好來跟各個黨的原住民的立委做一下溝通跟說明也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久啊但這個是你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊對不對院長應該有更主動一點的心態吧你剛剛講我覺得蠻好至少我們聽到說追加預算可行"},{"start":893.812,"end":922.45,"text":"那是不是有一個更清楚的方案比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出經過什麼樣的一個情況取得三黨的共識這個預算的僵局也許就解開了那請問院長有沒有具體的方案我們除了原民會的說明之外我一直尊重大院內部所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好或者是性態也好這裡面都寫得出來了好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":925.407,"end":926.414,"text":"接下來請登記第21位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時31分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長辛苦了。很高興，雖然朝野氛圍不睦，但好歹在禁伐補償這件事情上面看到有一點點轉圜的契機，但無論如何，今天下午到底會不會付委，不曉得，但是我想透過預算答詢的過程，大家把話講清楚，還是非常有必要的。所以今天本席打算用這15分鐘，好好從法、理、情三個角度，我們來討論一下禁伐補償的正當性，我們話不多說，直接進入主題。","第一個，我們從法的層面來討論，其實我聽了很多委員的質詢，包含卓院長在媒體前面的答復等等，卓院長都屢次提及所謂的憲法第七十條、預算法第九十一條及財政紀律法第五條，對不對？但我就想請問一下院長，這幾個法律裡面有哪一條是硬性規定行政院必須要同意，我們才能這樣修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然字眼上沒有，它是說要徵詢。"],["牛委員煦庭：要徵詢，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但另外一個程序問題就是必須要指出彌補資金之來源，就是增加的歲出有多少錢，大家要有個來源。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在再請問卓揆，本席在內政委員會，其實我們上個會期業績不錯，通過很多法案，比如民意代表支給條例在上個會期其實也順利修正通過，請問院長，在這個條例裡面，我們有沒有特別去指明新增的財源在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果行政院同意了之後，我們會找出它必須在預算裡面怎麼去跟歲出做怎麼樣比例的分配。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們增加了地方民代的助理費、增加了一些里長年終獎金等等，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，很多。"],["牛委員煦庭：它是不是修法，然後增加了政府的開支？沒錯，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：上個禮拜才剛剛在內政委員會順利討論完畢的消防法，我們讓政府的業務負擔稍微增加，我們也讓義消人員有比照基層消防員的健檢待遇等等，它其實也增加了政府的開支，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以政策所有事情的執行一定事涉財源，對不對？但不是每一件事情都一定要用修法表明的方式，所以我想院長在這個地方去主張，就是你一定要敘明財源的時候，其實在實務上的見解來講，反而是不適用的，難道不是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們處理方式，如果像剛剛委員所提的幾個案子，我們會把它放在我們的施政報告裡面，或者放在我們的預算報告裡面，這個就表示它已經經過行政院了解整個預算的執行內容、程序、預算，把它形成一個可以執行的政策，就有資金的來源。如果沒有，在原來的報告範圍當中突然跑出來一塊，那就是在整個施政報告之外的，就必須有資金來源。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以到目前為止，就法論法的角度，對不對，其實法律沒有明定一定要你同意，我想這是共識嘛？法律沒有明文規定，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：它是寫徵詢。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們互相同理一下，院長會希望在法條審理的過程中，儘量的來達成共識跟同意，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：尊重、互相尊重，是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是我也要跟院長直接挑明的講，就是法案審查的時候，不見得每一件事情都一定會有共識，不然我們在立法院這邊有表決器幹嘛，對不對？所以沒有共識的時候，那當然就要透過正常的程序來表決。我要請問院長，在修法的整個過程中，從委員會的審查進到黨團協商，最後交付大院表決，有沒有哪一件事情違反了議事的程序？應該沒有，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果經過很嚴謹的程序……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是一個嚴謹的……"],["卓院長榮泰：那就是法律……"],["牛委員煦庭：它就是法律嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就必須遵守。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我們今天從就法論法的角度來講，通過的是叫禁伐補償條例，即便憲法有表示立法院不得為預算案增加支出，這本席同意，但禁伐補償條例是法律案，也不是預算案，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席要花這麼多時間把它講清楚，不只是因為要幫我們的原住民弟兄討公道，也是因為本席是這個法案的共同提案人，我們希望立法院三讀通過的法律被尊重，我希望卓院長必須要了解立法院的立場。如果我們在這個法條上有所讓步或者是不堅持的話，變成形成一定要行政院同意的慣例，那其實對於立法院是一種矮化，對於臺灣的憲政發展來講，也不是一件正面的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是希望能夠互相的尊重，把一個法案討論到最成熟，因為這個牽涉到預算，錢從哪裡來是很重要的，有沒有這個事情……"],["牛委員煦庭：等一下我們在理的部分，會討論預算的一些來源跟實務上的一些操作。再退萬步言，我們今天就把話一次破到底，真的行政院沒有同意嗎？來，我們看一下影片，雖然有點快。","（播放影片）"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，雖然速度有點快，沒關係，我有幫你整理好時序，3月1號伍麗華委員的總質詢就有講，金額要明定在法律，透過法律的研議來辦理。當初的行政院陳建仁院長是同意的；前主計長朱澤民也講說，經費符合法令，認同編在預算，我們就來照章執行。3月5號，高金素梅委員總質詢，一樣是行政院長陳建仁答詢說，修法通過，我們就照修法的結果來做處理。在5月2號黨團協商的過程中，由高金素梅委員召集，原民會的副主委谷縱說，倘若這個條文經過大院的三讀通過，我們就要依法來編列，希望立法院支持相關預算。其實在審查的過程中，行政方難道沒有同意嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員那段影片雖然很快，我也聽得出來，大家聽得出來，文字上這邊也有，講了很多次的如果、大概、倘若，就是設定了很多的條件，如果通過、如果合法、如果怎麼樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個必須要滿足程序。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛大部分的條件都是如果法律通過，法律通過了沒？我們剛剛講了嘛，經過了嚴謹的程序，三讀通過，那當然就應該要執行。所以就法論法，你如果講哪一條法律明定你要同意，然後我們硬要衝突，那當然就是我們站不住腳，可是今天法沒有明定你一定要同意，我們有沒有徵詢、有沒有討論？其實都有，前朝同意，難道現在換了新人就不買單嗎？這樣恐怕有失風範。所以從法律的角度，我想這是一個於法有據的事情，也沒什麼好爭議的，我們今天就把話講清楚，行政院在本案其實早就同意，而且院長你也常常講，政策其實都是有延續性的，喜歡或不喜歡，多少要有點承擔，如果說這個事情有雙標，恐怕是不太好的事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：從法律的角度，我們要提醒卓院長。","第二個部分，我們要從理的角度來論述一下禁伐補償的道理，首先談預算的重編跟修正在過去的一些案例，很多人講預算連續阻擋，好像都是在野黨的責任一樣，當然民意調查不這麼認為，現在時代很發達，大家都可以把話講得非常清楚。因為我們遵循憲法第七十條，不得為預算之增加，我不能等到原民會把預算送進來的時候，我再講說這20億不夠，我把它改成40億，那就違憲了。所以我們唯一能夠要求行政院依法編列的武器，只好在程序委員會或者是在大院的時候先行阻擋，用意是希望你可以提出具體可行的修正方案，所以我想這件事情其實講得非常清楚。","有沒有相關的案例呢？其實是有的，比如民國93年中央政府的新十大建設特別預算，它就事涉了一些資源的重新分配，所以處理方式是撤回，並且提出新的相關預算案。94年審理95年中央政府總預算的時候，因為有老農津貼的增加，所以提出了相關的修正。97年同樣的，擴大內需的公共建設特別預算案，也一樣，都事涉預算內容跟科目的調整，所以一樣是提出修正，到100年、101年的中央政府總預算，老農津貼再次提高，一樣用修正案的方式來處理。","所以我們之所以沒有辦法讓它那麼早付委，是因為在等待行政院提出一個務實的修正方案。既然法有明文，前朝也承諾，院長本來就要有所承擔，必須要提出編列的項目。我知道院長可能要講，這個是財源，可能很短促，或者是壓力很大，這個本席不會不能理解，但是認真說起來，如果我們從這幾年的預算，光看中央政府預算的執行角度，其實不會沒有財源，為什麼呢？112年的決算，歲計賸餘是5億8,000萬，中間還有保留的10億，加起來其實是15億，就是你沒有執行完的預算，在你中央政府這一大包、幾千億的預算裡面，沒有執行完的就有十幾億。特別是前瞻計畫，為什麼會跑出第5期？不也是因為預算沒有執行完，所以用第5期的方式來做處理嗎？","到了今（113）年，我們正在執行的預算到了第3季，也就是到9月的統計資料，有17個部會還有超過15億以上的賸餘，原民會還有25.88億的賸餘。當然院長你會講還有一季，之後大家就會趕工把它執行完畢，但本席今天要提這個概念，其實只是要講，這麼一大包的中央預算，兩兆多、三兆多的預算，如果稍作檢討，可以節省的案子節省一下，對不對？可以調整的項目做一下調整，20億相較於3兆2,000億，它其實是非常非常小的數字，它甚至都不構成你前面講的預算歲出的大幅增加。我們如果用中央政府總預算的角度來看，所以不會有財源的問題，只要政府願意花一點點心思，稍微檢討一下各部會就哪些地方可以省一省，是不是這20億的財源就跑出來了？就透過預算的方式來做處理不就好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員說對一部分，因為從數字、算數問題來看，確實可以如此，但是如果從原則問題來看，斷不可這樣子做，因為這樣子我們在提出的施政報告之外，突然多出來的一個政策、一筆預算，如果這形成一個可行的慣例，將來行政院的施政報告會變成廢紙一張。"],["牛委員煦庭：你擔心形成慣例這個事情，我們最後再花一點點時間來做討論，但我現在講的是，其實從技術上或者是從金額的角度出發，我們純粹就預算的調度來講，它是技術可行的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：算數問題是可以解釋，但是原則問題是不可以改變的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為你的原則就是政治問題，我們最後的時間再來處理。既然你都談到了這個預算可行，其實本質上，它就是個分配問題。今天大家在談禁伐補償，大家積極地幫原住民爭取預算，其實這是不分朝野的，大家的用意是什麼呢？我們希望對原住民好一點嘛，院長你有沒有了解一下，原民的預算占總預算的比例是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年度我們編了122億。"],["牛委員煦庭：122億，對不對？那比例是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：但它增加的比例是比整個預算增加的比例高喔！"],["牛委員煦庭：真的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：來，數字在這裡，113年總預算是2兆8,000億，原民會預算是109億，這個比例是0.381%。再往前，其實歷年來都差不了多少啦！多的時候到0.4%，不是4%，是0.4%，1%都不到，連0.5%都不到，這就是我們政府對於原住民的資源投入啊！","賴清德總統曾經講：我要當原住民的朋友，我一直和原住民站在一起。其實大家都希望幫原住民爭取更好的權益，但是什麼樣叫更好的權益？為什麼大家講，不能夠把這樣子的一個預算編在基金裡面來執行，其實就是因為基金本來就是要幫原住民做事的一個開支，如果你用挪移的方式改由基金來支出的話，它其實實質上會造成原住民預算的排擠。既然今天不管是無黨籍的委員、國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員，大家去談禁伐補償的時候，都是希望在透過法令的修正之後，政府能夠多撥一點預算，改變分配的邏輯，加大對於原住民朋友的政策挹注，這個才是政策的本意，這個我想也是情有可原，院長，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會歡迎、也支持我們在政策的討論上，從政策面來討論之後，彼此共同找出一個財源，像剛剛委員所說的，我們用基金，有人有意見；我們用二備金，有意見；我們用追加預算，也有意見，所以這個資金的來源到現在要如何解決，我希望我們能夠再透過朝野協商，找出一個大家都接受的，我們以後建立這樣一個憲法跟法律的規範，在原則底下，這次找一個如何能夠解決、接受的方案。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我也幫院長稍微算了一下，雖然我沒有寫在螢幕上面，但是即便增加，因為你編今年跟明年預算的時候，禁伐補償是由原住民的公務基金支出28億，撥給基金，從基金的部分支出嘛！至少收支是對列的，之所以之前講不能夠挪在基金裡面，是因為它收支沒有辦法平衡，久而久之基金就掏空了。好，現在由公務預算來支持基金，它現在是對列的狀態，但是你沒有編足嘛！現在就是個問題，28億，如果把28億調漲成按照6萬塊的政策邏輯去做編列的話，還會增加13億左右的開支，即便把原住民的預算再增加13億，這個比例也不過就是從0.391%變成0.43%，真的不是一筆大錢，但是對於原住民朋友來講，其實是很溫暖的。"],["卓院長榮泰：真的，委員，我也說我不是在意幾億、百分之零點多，不是這個問題，是那幾個憲法跟法律的條文，我們必須把它履行完整的程序。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，最後還有1分鐘的時間，當然就談政治的問題，很多人講說朝野僵局很難處理，但是我始終覺得行政端要負更多一點的責任……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們願意。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼這樣說呢？立法院狀況本來就很複雜，各黨黨團有不同意見，一個立法權分拆在113個委員的手上，可是行政權是相對集中的，享有相對集中優勢的人，難道不應該負起更多的責任嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們願意。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長當初上臺的時候，其實本席期待你是個通情達理的人，在以前政治人物的人設裡面，你也是善於溝通，不見得站第一線這樣的角色，我常常想如果你可以用這樣子的心態，好好來跟各個黨的原住民立委做一下溝通跟說明，也許這個朝野僵局不會持續這麼久，你不能期待立法院自己來處理啊！對不對？院長，應該要有更主動一點的心態吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得你剛剛講的滿好的，至少我們聽到說追加預算可行，那是不是有一個更清楚的方案？比如說什麼時候要來具體的提出，經過什麼樣的一個情況，取得三黨的共識，這個預算的僵局也許就解開了，請問院長有沒有具體的方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，除了原民會的說明之外，我一直尊重大院內部，所以我們是透過朝野黨團在做溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們期待看到一個具體有效的解決方案，這個會影響之後預算審查的節奏也好，或者是心態也好，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這裡面都寫出來了，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第21號劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","張智倫","麥玉珍","鍾佳濱","羅智強","王定宇","牛煦庭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","郭國文","邱鎮軍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","郭昱晴","高金素梅","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","王美惠"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138801_00004"}}}