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\"start\": 745.587, \"end\": 745.607, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,870\n謝謝主席主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好謝謝主席林委員長局長早安現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家\n\n2\n00:00:27,336 --> 00:00:27,396\n：林楚茵\n\n3\n00:00:51,716 --> 00:01:15,327\n俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營\n\n4\n00:01:16,327 --> 00:01:29,863\n跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點\n\n5\n00:01:31,284 --> 00:01:46,731\n但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後\n\n6\n00:01:48,712 --> 00:02:08,284\n國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持\n\n7\n00:02:08,664 --> 00:02:29,222\n也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的\n\n8\n00:02:29,542 --> 00:02:56,194\n那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,\n\n9\n00:02:57,375 --> 00:02:57,575\n李卓人議員\n\n10\n00:03:17,697 --> 00:03:40,763\n好那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了\n\n11\n00:03:42,543 --> 00:03:56,468\n對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始\n\n12\n00:03:59,957 --> 00:04:05,722\n有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的\n\n13\n00:04:24,620 --> 00:04:46,667\n他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個\n\n14\n00:04:49,028 --> 00:05:06,204\n可是到了2024BT-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作\n\n15\n00:05:06,704 --> 00:05:22,199\n在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導\n\n16\n00:05:24,181 --> 00:05:48,940\n有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出\n\n17\n00:05:49,480 --> 00:06:10,141\n好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在\n\n18\n00:06:10,501 --> 00:06:10,541\n主席\n\n19\n00:07:02,495 --> 00:07:20,732\n就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道\n\n20\n00:07:21,112 --> 00:07:23,996\n美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?\n\n21\n00:07:34,977 --> 00:07:56,062\n對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中\n\n22\n00:07:57,282 --> 00:08:21,537\n其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面\n\n23\n00:08:22,538 --> 00:08:25,941\n主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分\n\n24\n00:08:41,954 --> 00:08:42,034\n主席\n\n25\n00:08:56,316 --> 00:09:23,012\n因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連\n\n26\n00:09:23,832 --> 00:09:41,122\n有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請\n\n27\n00:09:42,142 --> 00:10:07,890\n國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎\n\n28\n00:10:10,349 --> 00:10:36,836\n對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商\n\n29\n00:10:37,256 --> 00:10:37,376\n李卓人議員\n\n30\n00:11:01,587 --> 00:11:24,975\n好因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶\n\n31\n00:11:26,175 --> 00:11:32,938\n普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架\n\n32\n00:11:51,967 --> 00:12:08,725\n現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害\n\n33\n00:12:09,686 --> 00:12:25,607\n對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3870\t謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員長局長早安 現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家\n27336\t27396\t：林楚茵\n51716\t75327\t俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營\n76327\t89863\t跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點\n91284\t106731\t但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後\n108712\t128284\t國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持\n128664\t149222\t也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的\n149542\t176194\t那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,\n177375\t177575\t李卓人議員\n197697\t220763\t好 那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了\n222543\t236468\t對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始\n239957\t245722\t有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的\n264620\t286667\t他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個\n289028\t306204\t可是到了2024B T-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作\n306704\t322199\t在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導\n324181\t348940\t有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出\n349480\t370141\t好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在\n370501\t370541\t主席\n400401\t422415\t﹗\n422495\t440732\t就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道\n441112\t443996\t美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?\n454977\t476062\t對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中\n477282\t501537\t其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面\n502538\t505941\t主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分\n521954\t522034\t主席\n536316\t563012\t因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連\n563832\t581122\t有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請\n582142\t607890\t國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎\n610349\t636836\t對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商\n637256\t637376\t李卓人議員\n661587\t684975\t好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶\n686175\t692938\t普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架\n711967\t728725\t現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害\n729686\t745607\t對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員長局長早安 現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家\n：林楚茵\n俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營\n跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點\n但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後\n國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持\n也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的\n那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,\n李卓人議員\n好 那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了\n對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始\n有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的\n他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個\n可是到了2024B T-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作\n在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導\n有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出\n好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在\n主席\n﹗\n就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道\n美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?\n對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中\n其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面\n主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分\n主席\n因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連\n有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請\n國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎\n對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商\n李卓人議員\n好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶\n普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架\n現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害\n對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.870\n謝謝主席主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好謝謝主席林委員長局長早安現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家\n\n00:27.336 --> 00:27.396\n：林楚茵\n\n00:51.716 --> 01:15.327\n俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營\n\n01:16.327 --> 01:29.863\n跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點\n\n01:31.284 --> 01:46.731\n但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後\n\n01:48.712 --> 02:08.284\n國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持\n\n02:08.664 --> 02:29.222\n也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的\n\n02:29.542 --> 02:56.194\n那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,\n\n02:57.375 --> 02:57.575\n李卓人議員\n\n03:17.697 --> 03:40.763\n好那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了\n\n03:42.543 --> 03:56.468\n對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始\n\n03:59.957 --> 04:05.722\n有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的\n\n04:24.620 --> 04:46.667\n他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個\n\n04:49.028 --> 05:06.204\n可是到了2024BT-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作\n\n05:06.704 --> 05:22.199\n在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導\n\n05:24.181 --> 05:48.940\n有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出\n\n05:49.480 --> 06:10.141\n好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在\n\n06:10.501 --> 06:10.541\n主席\n\n07:02.495 --> 07:20.732\n就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道\n\n07:21.112 --> 07:23.996\n美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?\n\n07:34.977 --> 07:56.062\n對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中\n\n07:57.282 --> 08:21.537\n其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面\n\n08:22.538 --> 08:25.941\n主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分\n\n08:41.954 --> 08:42.034\n主席\n\n08:56.316 --> 09:23.012\n因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連\n\n09:23.832 --> 09:41.122\n有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請\n\n09:42.142 --> 10:07.890\n國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎\n\n10:10.349 --> 10:36.836\n對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商\n\n10:37.256 --> 10:37.376\n李卓人議員\n\n11:01.587 --> 11:24.975\n好因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶\n\n11:26.175 --> 11:32.938\n普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架\n\n11:51.967 --> 12:08.725\n現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害\n\n12:09.686 --> 12:25.607\n對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.87,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員長局長早安 現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家"},{"start":27.336,"end":27.396,"text":"：林楚茵"},{"start":51.716,"end":75.327,"text":"俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營"},{"start":76.327,"end":89.863,"text":"跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點"},{"start":91.284,"end":106.731,"text":"但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後"},{"start":108.712,"end":128.284,"text":"國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持"},{"start":128.664,"end":149.222,"text":"也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的"},{"start":149.542,"end":176.194,"text":"那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,"},{"start":177.375,"end":177.575,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":197.697,"end":220.763,"text":"好 那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了"},{"start":222.543,"end":236.468,"text":"對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始"},{"start":239.957,"end":245.722,"text":"有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的"},{"start":264.62,"end":286.667,"text":"他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個"},{"start":289.028,"end":306.204,"text":"可是到了2024B T-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作"},{"start":306.704,"end":322.199,"text":"在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導"},{"start":324.181,"end":348.94,"text":"有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出"},{"start":349.48,"end":370.141,"text":"好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在"},{"start":370.501,"end":370.541,"text":"主席"},{"start":400.401,"end":422.415,"text":"﹗"},{"start":422.495,"end":440.732,"text":"就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道"},{"start":441.112,"end":443.996,"text":"美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?"},{"start":454.977,"end":476.062,"text":"對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中"},{"start":477.282,"end":501.537,"text":"其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面"},{"start":502.538,"end":505.941,"text":"主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分"},{"start":521.954,"end":522.034,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.316,"end":563.012,"text":"因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連"},{"start":563.832,"end":581.122,"text":"有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請"},{"start":582.142,"end":607.89,"text":"國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎"},{"start":610.349,"end":636.836,"text":"對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商"},{"start":637.256,"end":637.376,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":661.587,"end":684.975,"text":"好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶"},{"start":686.175,"end":692.938,"text":"普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架"},{"start":711.967,"end":728.725,"text":"現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害"},{"start":729.686,"end":745.607,"text":"對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":139,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時35分）謝謝主席，主席有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：局長早安。現在美國選舉正在開票當中，但我沒有要問你美選的結果，我其實比較關注的是2024年即將接近尾聲，我們知道全球好幾個主要的民主夥伴國家正在進行他們權力的改選，或者是權力結構的重組，包括法國國會、包括美國、包括日本。和我們今天題目比較相關的是，昨天有一個媒體報導指出我們的國安官員認為2024年結束之後，來到2025年，包括中國、俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓，這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結，不知道對這樣的訊息，國安局有沒有相關的研擬？對於這篇報導，國安局的看法又是如何？是不是對全球來說，現在所面臨的是自由民主的陣營跟相對極權，而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是更為極端的二元對立，局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，針對委員所引述的報導，先說明一下，這不是國安局對外提供的觀點，但是對於各種媒體上的討論，我們都非常地注意，有列入我們的參考跟評估，特別要注意到的是接下來的地緣政治發展，到底有哪些的發展趨勢，我們必須要掌握那個脈動。確實正如委員所提到的，事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後，國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的對立局勢，確實慢慢地在開展當中，隨著整個俄烏戰事的長期化，這樣的趨勢越來越明顯，這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的支持，也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組，所以你用這個角度來看的話，可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間，在各個方面，不管是地緣政治的角力、高科技的競爭以及在政治理念價值的差異性，確實有越來越兩極化對立的趨勢，正如委員所描述的。"],["林委員楚茵：如果是這樣的話，我們在安全的部分，不論是國防部，又或者是情報相關的單位當中，是不是都有做好相關的準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，對。因為在面對比較變動的區域安全環境，怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資，確實非常地重要。就本局來講，我們在過去這一年多裡面，大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明，第一個部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位、不同的部門，我們會做相關的情資整合，不管是人員情報或科技情報進來之後，我們可以有比較完整、全面地分析，以便能夠掌握情報的即時性跟正確性；第二個部分是我們也跟國際友盟不斷地加強情報交流跟合作，以便掌握相關發展的趨勢。"],["林委員楚茵：講到這個情報交流，當然還是要回到現在大家都在關注的美選。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：可是在美選真的投票出來之前，對於臺灣很多見縫插針的一些不利消息，到底是中國這邊放消息，還是在地協力者放消息？這個我不確定，但是就看到報上開始說了，對於臺灣面對美選的結果，有所謂押錯寶的押寶說，有認為說臺灣不瞭解狀況，又或者臺灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的說法存在，對於這種已經開始見縫插針，甚至於危害臺灣跟美國之間關係的說法已經傳出來的時候，國安局是不是也有把它視為一個監控情資，在做準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為就爭議訊息的散播來講，國安局有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡查找，委員所提到的是散播的網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的，其背後有一個很大的產業鏈及工作鏈，由中共方面來提供相關的情訊，再透過協力者來進行轉發。跟委員做一個數字上的說明，在聯合利劍─2024A的演習過程當中，相關爭議訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化，在2024A，我們看到TikTok的異常帳號才一百五十幾個，可是到了2024B，TikTok的異常帳號已經到了一千八百多個，所以你可以看到網絡……"],["林委員楚茵：所以短短只有幾個月？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！不斷地在擴散，這大概是第一個趨勢，跟委員報告。第二個趨勢，除了他的運作網絡以外，可以注意到的是他們議題的操作，在中共軍演期間，當時爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍，就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的演習活動；到了現階段，因為開始進入了美選的高峰季，也確實像媒體相關的討論跟報導，有越來越多的爭議訊息是聚焦在質疑美國會不會持續地對臺灣提供堅定的安全承諾、臺灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性，以及那些軍品到底對於臺海防衛作戰有沒有用處的討論，我們都有持續地來關注這些爭議訊息，我們會判定爭議訊息對於社會衝擊的程度，即時通報到各單位，來對外說明跟應處。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為面對我們的民主友邦在進行整個權力的改組或者選舉的過程當中，中國最想的就是見縫插針，製造臺灣民心的動盪，有機會來喧擾一波、干擾一波，我想國安局應該都有在準備當中。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我們會。"],["林委員楚茵：除了透過民主陣營的選舉，或者是權力改組的過程當中所引發的擾動之外，其實中國對臺灣的滲透是一直在持續的。我想請局長看一下，最近媒體都已經報導，包括連法國媒體都在提醒臺灣，華為用獵人頭的方式來挖角台積電工程師。對於臺灣現在來講，我們都知道科技是非常重要的一環，即經濟科技，但是如果透過變身的方式，然後進入臺灣，把臺灣的科技人才或關鍵技術蠶食鯨吞，目前這個是國安局有注意到的樣態嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["林委員楚茵：過去我們看到的是一些關鍵技術被滲透，但是如果不只是關鍵技術，連台積電工程師都會被挖角走的時候，另外媒體也報導了，中共利用繞一圈的方式來臺灣租AI的算力，如果根據平面媒體的報導，目前臺灣AI算力用不到這麼多，那麼很顯然就是有人用借殼上市的方式來做AI算力的租借。我們都知道美國針對中國是要求美國企業不准投資中國，對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除，但如果臺灣變成是中國洗產地的一環，那麼這該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。這部分跟委員說明一下，國安局針對防範中共對臺灣的竊密挖角，我們有成立一個專案機制，有一些成果也利用這個機會跟委員報告一下，大概從2021年到現在，我們偵辦、查察的案件已經超過一百多件，移送檢方起訴的已經有四十幾件，另外相關的案件還在偵辦當中，所以起訴四十幾件，不代表只有這個數字，還會持續不斷地調查跟偵辦，這大概是第一部分。第二部分，針對這一些比較高科技的管制，經濟部有所謂的出口管制清單，這部分我們也持續跟其他的友好國家來交換意見，到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵、敏感的技術，應該要列在清單裡面，讓我們跟國際友盟在這方面的管制能夠同步。","至於委員也有提到AI算力的部分，這一部分當然主管的是國科會，有公布一波一波的關鍵技術清單的項目跟名單，後續是不是要把AI這部分納進來，我們會持續跟業管機關來交換意見，尤其業管機關現在也正在盤點，是不是要進行AI基本法的修法，這個部分有沒有必要透過法律來進一步管制，我們有跟國科會在交換意見。"],["林委員楚茵：因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰，事實上它的變形非常地大，也非常地廣，對於國安局，又或者是相關的單位來講，就好像我們過去講打詐，每個部門都涉入其中，現在我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透，也變成是這樣，似乎變成是每個部會都必須要緊密地相連。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：到底AI算力要不要納入，又或者是像華為，對於全球、美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個擁有後門程式，侵擾全球安全的部分，那麼要不要放入，這恐怕也要請國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密地聯繫。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["林委員楚茵：另外一個其實本席關注的就是，美國的參議員都已經發聲要怎麼樣協防臺灣，有關於管制協力者，我們要從源頭開始，現在國安局怎麼樣來協助臺灣廠商避免我們的晶片為華為所用，這個部分你們有了解嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於這個部分，我剛才也跟委員說明到，有一些中國的廠商，不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在臺灣竊密挖角的，我們是有一個專案機制在進行相關的查察，也有一些起訴的進度出來，對於這個問題我們會持續的關注，正如委員所提到的，因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於臺灣出口管制機制更進一步的關切，所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商，讓我們的管制機制更完善，也是未來會努力的重點。還有一點是跟廠商的溝通，也就是廠商自己要有相關的自律機制，也必須要了解假如違反相關出口管制機制的話，廠商本身可能也會變成制裁的對象，所以跟廠商的溝通，我們會再跟經濟部門來做討論，看怎麼樣來強化這部分的作為。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為時間有限，本來我還要問到有關連醫護人才，中國都來搶，像這個部分恐怕也要提醒國安局，可能也要跟衛福部來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["林委員楚茵：最後的1分鐘，我想要講的是中國惠臺方式真的非常多，今天11月6號，雙11馬上要來了，我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶鋪天蓋地的在臺灣打廣告，而且這到底是撿到便宜，還是免費的最貴，因為它現在用免運的方式，這就是中國養套殺的策略，我不知道局長同不同意？它都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業，等到他們拿下這個產業之後就來個殺無赦，就來隨便開價，現在淘寶直接就在臺灣打廣告，然後就說免運，你所有的東西中國買不用運費，這個衝擊到的是臺灣的電商跟臺灣的產業，那麼這個算不算是中國對臺灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰，或者是產業的入侵及傷害？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們有在注意，正如委員所提到的，它涉及到一些電商、法規，還有相關的管理，國安局因為是情報機關，我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟業管機關提醒，請他們要多加注意及取締。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，局長請回。","接下來我們請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}}