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494.199, \"text\": \"會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 471.696, \"end\": 471.836, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 471.836, \"end\": 473.078, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 473.078, \"end\": 473.238, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 473.238, \"end\": 473.398, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 473.398, \"end\": 473.558, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 473.558, \"end\": 473.658, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 473.658, \"end\": 473.738, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 473.738, \"end\": 473.939, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 473.939, \"end\": 474.199, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", 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\"start\": 798.465, \"end\": 798.545, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 798.545, \"end\": 798.565, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 798.565, \"end\": 798.585, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,322 --> 00:00:32,091\n王委員長副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實欺騙到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對沒採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了\n\n2\n00:00:36,502 --> 00:00:44,907\n我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯是我們買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套\n\n3\n00:00:46,196 --> 00:01:07,533\n11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力\n\n4\n00:01:09,335 --> 00:01:10,356\n涉及機敏你可以不回答?\n\n5\n00:01:39,956 --> 00:01:46,321\n在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方?\n\n6\n00:01:47,625 --> 00:02:09,875\n報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個的戰術運用上來講\n\n7\n00:02:12,176 --> 00:02:12,456\n土耳B\n\n8\n00:02:38,563 --> 00:02:38,583\n韓國瑜\n\n9\n00:03:08,403 --> 00:03:09,243\n先麻煩請國安局長\n\n10\n00:03:36,181 --> 00:04:03,653\n我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為\n\n11\n00:04:04,753 --> 00:04:32,266\n所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的\n\n12\n00:04:33,186 --> 00:04:56,839\n目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中\n\n13\n00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:58,820\n這涵蓋到人事嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:09,858 --> 00:05:34,593\n他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以\n\n15\n00:05:35,313 --> 00:05:53,726\n在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。\n\n16\n00:05:55,558 --> 00:06:17,584\n那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的partyissue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern\n\n17\n00:06:18,746 --> 00:06:44,563\n這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來\n\n18\n00:06:45,984 --> 00:06:50,206\n基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到\n\n19\n00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:06,576\n其實我認為我們該\n\n20\n00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:50,916\n我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法\n\n21\n00:07:51,696 --> 00:08:14,199\n會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離\n\n22\n00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:44,111\n對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,\n\n23\n00:08:44,611 --> 00:09:04,472\n比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式\n\n24\n00:09:05,593 --> 00:09:07,154\n最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦\n\n25\n00:09:28,427 --> 00:09:35,788\n但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後\n\n26\n00:09:36,994 --> 00:10:02,384\n不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼\n\n27\n00:10:02,924 --> 00:10:24,847\n對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中\n\n28\n00:10:26,625 --> 00:10:41,299\n我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎\n\n29\n00:10:43,411 --> 00:10:59,473\n讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶\n\n30\n00:11:00,374 --> 00:11:16,414\n對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,\n\n31\n00:11:17,755 --> 00:11:36,008\n現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞\n\n32\n00:11:37,652 --> 00:11:49,020\n這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案\n\n33\n00:11:51,530 --> 00:12:19,144\n我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法\n\n34\n00:12:19,964 --> 00:12:44,254\n相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,\n\n35\n00:12:48,957 --> 00:13:08,753\n這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候\n\n36\n00:13:10,235 --> 00:13:18,585\n藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3322\t32091\t王委員長副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實欺騙到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對沒採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了\n36502\t44907\t我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯是我們買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套\n46196\t67533\t11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力\n69335\t70356\t涉及機敏你可以不回答?\n99956\t106321\t在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方?\n107625\t129875\t報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個的戰術運用上來講\n132176\t132456\t土耳B\n158563\t158583\t韓國瑜\n188403\t189243\t先麻煩請國安局長\n216181\t243653\t我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為\n244753\t272266\t所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的\n273186\t296839\t目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中\n298680\t298820\t這涵蓋到人事嗎?\n309858\t334593\t他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以\n335313\t353726\t在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。\n355558\t377584\t那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern\n378746\t404563\t這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來\n405984\t410206\t基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到\n426516\t426576\t其實我認為我們該\n445040\t470916\t我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法\n471696\t494199\t會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離\n495480\t524111\t對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,\n524611\t544472\t比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式\n545593\t547154\t最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦\n568427\t575788\t但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後\n576994\t602384\t不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼\n602924\t624847\t對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中\n626625\t641299\t我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎\n643411\t659473\t讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶\n660374\t676414\t對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,\n677755\t696008\t現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞\n697652\t709020\t這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案\n711530\t739144\t我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法\n739964\t764254\t相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,\n768957\t788753\t這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候\n790235\t798585\t藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長\n","txt":"王委員長副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實欺騙到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對沒採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了\n我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯是我們買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套\n11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力\n涉及機敏你可以不回答?\n在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方?\n報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個的戰術運用上來講\n土耳B\n韓國瑜\n先麻煩請國安局長\n我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為\n所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的\n目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中\n這涵蓋到人事嗎?\n他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以\n在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。\n那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern\n這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來\n基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到\n其實我認為我們該\n我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法\n會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離\n對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,\n比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式\n最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦\n但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後\n不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼\n對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中\n我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎\n讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶\n對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,\n現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞\n這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案\n我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法\n相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,\n這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候\n藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.322 --> 00:32.091\n王委員長副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實欺騙到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對沒採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了\n\n00:36.502 --> 00:44.907\n我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯是我們買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套\n\n00:46.196 --> 01:07.533\n11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力\n\n01:09.335 --> 01:10.356\n涉及機敏你可以不回答?\n\n01:39.956 --> 01:46.321\n在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方?\n\n01:47.625 --> 02:09.875\n報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個的戰術運用上來講\n\n02:12.176 --> 02:12.456\n土耳B\n\n02:38.563 --> 02:38.583\n韓國瑜\n\n03:08.403 --> 03:09.243\n先麻煩請國安局長\n\n03:36.181 --> 04:03.653\n我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為\n\n04:04.753 --> 04:32.266\n所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的\n\n04:33.186 --> 04:56.839\n目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中\n\n04:58.680 --> 04:58.820\n這涵蓋到人事嗎?\n\n05:09.858 --> 05:34.593\n他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以\n\n05:35.313 --> 05:53.726\n在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。\n\n05:55.558 --> 06:17.584\n那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的partyissue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern\n\n06:18.746 --> 06:44.563\n這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來\n\n06:45.984 --> 06:50.206\n基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到\n\n07:06.516 --> 07:06.576\n其實我認為我們該\n\n07:25.040 --> 07:50.916\n我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法\n\n07:51.696 --> 08:14.199\n會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離\n\n08:15.480 --> 08:44.111\n對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,\n\n08:44.611 --> 09:04.472\n比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式\n\n09:05.593 --> 09:07.154\n最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦\n\n09:28.427 --> 09:35.788\n但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後\n\n09:36.994 --> 10:02.384\n不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼\n\n10:02.924 --> 10:24.847\n對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中\n\n10:26.625 --> 10:41.299\n我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎\n\n10:43.411 --> 10:59.473\n讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶\n\n11:00.374 --> 11:16.414\n對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,\n\n11:17.755 --> 11:36.008\n現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞\n\n11:37.652 --> 11:49.020\n這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案\n\n11:51.530 --> 12:19.144\n我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法\n\n12:19.964 --> 12:44.254\n相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,\n\n12:48.957 --> 13:08.753\n這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候\n\n13:10.235 --> 13:18.585\n藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.322,"end":32.091,"text":"王委員長副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實欺騙到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對沒採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了"},{"start":36.502,"end":44.907,"text":"我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯是我們買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套"},{"start":46.196,"end":67.533,"text":"11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力"},{"start":69.335,"end":70.356,"text":"涉及機敏你可以不回答?"},{"start":99.956,"end":106.321,"text":"在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方?"},{"start":107.625,"end":129.875,"text":"報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個的戰術運用上來講"},{"start":132.176,"end":132.456,"text":"土耳B"},{"start":158.563,"end":158.583,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":188.403,"end":189.243,"text":"先麻煩請國安局長"},{"start":216.181,"end":243.653,"text":"我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為"},{"start":244.753,"end":272.266,"text":"所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的"},{"start":273.186,"end":296.839,"text":"目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中"},{"start":298.68,"end":298.82,"text":"這涵蓋到人事嗎?"},{"start":309.858,"end":334.593,"text":"他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以"},{"start":335.313,"end":353.726,"text":"在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。"},{"start":355.558,"end":377.584,"text":"那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern"},{"start":378.746,"end":404.563,"text":"這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來"},{"start":405.984,"end":410.206,"text":"基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到"},{"start":426.516,"end":426.576,"text":"其實我認為我們該"},{"start":445.04,"end":470.916,"text":"我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法"},{"start":471.696,"end":494.199,"text":"會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離"},{"start":495.48,"end":524.111,"text":"對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,"},{"start":524.611,"end":544.472,"text":"比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式"},{"start":545.593,"end":547.154,"text":"最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦"},{"start":568.427,"end":575.788,"text":"但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後"},{"start":576.994,"end":602.384,"text":"不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼"},{"start":602.924,"end":624.847,"text":"對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中"},{"start":626.625,"end":641.299,"text":"我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎"},{"start":643.411,"end":659.473,"text":"讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":660.374,"end":676.414,"text":"對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,"},{"start":677.755,"end":696.008,"text":"現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞"},{"start":697.652,"end":709.02,"text":"這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案"},{"start":711.53,"end":739.144,"text":"我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法"},{"start":739.964,"end":764.254,"text":"相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,"},{"start":768.957,"end":788.753,"text":"這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候"},{"start":790.235,"end":798.585,"text":"藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時47分）首先麻煩主席請柏鴻輝副部長。"],["主席：請柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：副部長，我請教幾個問題，這個問題其實牽涉到納稅人需要透明了解我們現在進度，有一段時間一直提出我們對美採購重要的軍售裝備延遲、延宕，當然你們都解釋過理由，因為肺炎期間工廠關閉、因為烏克蘭戰爭等等，但最近有些好消息，我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道。第一個問題，海馬斯是不是已經到臺灣了？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對，已經到臺灣了。"],["王委員定宇：我的印象那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯，因此我們買了29套，所以這一批來到臺灣大概有幾套？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：11套。"],["王委員定宇：這11套抵達之後，因為我看了美國Fort Sill他們自己的網頁上有公布我們派訓送去的這些年輕官兵們，他們好像8月9號就受訓結業了，所以回來之後，現在接裝大概多久可以形成戰力？涉及機敏，你可以不回答。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，你剛剛問的都是蠻機敏的，所以有關於你所說訓練這樣的模式，我想還是保留一點，因為這個牽扯到我們戰力的養成。"],["王委員定宇：好，未來海馬斯的運用在國軍的想定它是什麼樣的運用？因為對灘頭已經有我們自己的雷霆2000了，所以它絕對不是當作雷霆2000那種大面積火箭彈的運用，有人說它是指揮官的遠程狙擊槍，在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對臺灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這都是在我們所有武器運用上來講是一個國防機密的屬性，我想我不便談細節，但是就我們本身來講，最後的戰力必須要整合，整合起來它有分為長、中、近的射程標的，所以對整個戰術運用上來講，總長那邊都有一個特別的規劃，我想這個請您放心。"],["王委員定宇：我在這邊詢答這麼多年了，基於國家利益，保密是必要的，但基於納稅人透明知道，我們的詢問如果這兩個有扞格，以國家利益為優先。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：我再請教一件事情就是，在年底前還有哪一些我們對美軍售的重要裝備會送到臺灣？我講的不是一般零附件。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：TOW-2B，在今年……"],["王委員定宇：TOW-2B現在是無線的嘛？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：以前拖式飛彈常常一條線托著尾巴，遇到海水的時候，它容易失效，所以TOW-2B之前延遲交付，其實是美國他們軍方把關，好像生產品質有問題，所以打掉再重新製造。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：它是在設計、測試的時候發生問題，然後重新組裝、重新做，所以在今年年底會……"],["王委員定宇：所以TOW-2B在今年底以前？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：會完成。"],["王委員定宇：還有沒有其他的重要裝備？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：M1。"],["王委員定宇：對呀，M1人家上火車都被開拍到了。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：M1A2第一批會到，也是在年底之前。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["王委員定宇：這些接裝的準備都準備好了嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：都準備好了。"],["王委員定宇：訓場呢？我們常關心坑子口、長安營區。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這些我們都準備好了。"],["王委員定宇：希望啦！我知道有一些硬體其實還沒有做完，預算也還沒有到位嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，先麻煩請回，我們請國安局長。","局長，我先問你美選的問題，美國大選當然對我們臺灣基本的政策是不押寶，也不公開預測，因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇，對臺灣來講，民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友，而他們對臺灣的政策其實都一樣的支持，這個是我們的基本架構。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為不押寶、不預測，代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備哦！"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：不管A當選或B當選，都要有所準備，對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全議題，我相信我們政府都要有所準備，所以我第一個請教的是，目前國安高層對美選，因為它的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道，對美選的結果，你又是外交部出身的，目前有沒有什麼因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，事實上美國因為是臺灣在印太地區長期最重要的夥伴之一，對於美國國內的選情，我們非常的關注，因為它是一個動態、長期的過程，所以在過去這段時間，我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的狀況，以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上臺的國安人事布局，以及他們對於經貿、對中，還有臺海政策的政策立場，從他們的一些國安幕僚來做蒐研，這一部分我們都有一些完整的整備。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你剛才講到就是我要問的，涵蓋到人事嘛！它的國安人事、內閣可能的人事嘛！它的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西，這些政策會落實的有哪些？對於臺海也好，對周邊的連鎖效應，因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防，甚至於外交，還有一些相關的安全議題，搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到。所以在因應這樣的準備上，我們國家是採取什麼層級？有用到國安會議來準備嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上在會議當中也都會討論到外在的一些狀況，包括美國跟日本選舉的狀況都有相關的討論。"],["王委員定宇：所以國安會議有納入這個議題的討論？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，有在討論。"],["王委員定宇：也是跨部會在做準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。"],["王委員定宇：到目前為止，美選的人選是一件事情，美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當分裂，我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣分裂的美國對於政黨，它的party issue太強烈了，未來這個部分，我們有沒有什麼樣的concern？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分當然在選舉過程當中，不只是美國的選舉，各國的選舉因為選情的激化，難免都會有比較二元化、兩極化的一些社會氛圍存在，但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值，就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同聲音在表述之後，透過新的行政團隊跟國會，行政、立法之間，還有國會內部不同政黨的討論，來針對後續的政策推動釐出一些共識出來。"],["王委員定宇：我們國安層級評估美選後，不管誰當選，臺美之間的安全議題、安全合作及地緣政治的多邊組織等等會不會有變化？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變，事實上，拜登印太戰略的一些布局也有很多是延續川普總統當時的政策布局，所以長期來看，美國對印太的戰略有它的延續性在。當然，很多策略在處理時的一些細節或管理方式會不盡相同，但是大的基調是一直都在的。"],["王委員定宇：其實我認為我們該關心的就是這一塊，大方向的格局是國際架構，其實要改變沒有……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，那是結構性的。"],["王委員定宇：結構性的問題很難改變，比如中國的擴張主義、中國不遵守國際規範，或者相關地緣政治的矛盾衝突，那個架構不會變，所以不管誰當選……"],["蔡局長明彥：都一樣！"],["王委員定宇：在運作國際規範上的架構是不一樣的，但是不同的政黨、不同的人在處理的方法會不一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：這些不一樣，有沒有會影響到臺灣的部分？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，確實我們注意的重點就是在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分，以經貿狀況來講，川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面脫鉤，就賀錦麗的團隊來講，他可能比較重視的是去風險；川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅可能到100%，賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再考慮。"],["王委員定宇：他講到200%啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他認為假如侵臺的話，講到200%，所以我的意思是說，我們觀察的重點就在這些細節，他們的政策在方向上大致是一致的，也就是制中友臺，但是在細節的處理上會不太一樣。"],["王委員定宇：等於是像醫師在開藥方，方向都是要開這個藥，有人是吃半顆，有人是開2粒，所以這個其實對臺灣在經貿安全議題上是有很重大的影響，光一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了，比方說CPTPP，比方說QUAD，比方說AUKUS，其實這兩位的主張是不太一樣的，這個不一樣當中，對第一島鏈、對於我們這邊的安全議題其實會構成一定的影響。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：有人擔心軍售什麼的，我覺得那一塊反而變化不大，在這個部分，我們目前國安單位準備的方式，你只能去研判它嘛，我們跟他們相關的團隊有沒有接觸？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分不好公開說明，但傳統上來講，我們跟不同的政黨或不同的行政部門或國會部門，都有非常熱絡的交往。"],["王委員定宇：好，我回到另外一個問題，最近發現，當然共諜背叛國家，不管什麼樣的身分都該重辦，但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素或因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後，不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻，或者向德恩，都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片，國安局有沒有研判為什麼會這樣，都已經當間諜了，還讓他們拍影片，你懂我的意思嗎？當間諜應該是秘密的，可以蒐集破壞臺灣或了解國安的資料，居然還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗，它的目的是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的效忠啦，也許情報工作應該是要低調，但他這個部分比較屬於一種心理戰的操作，一旦臺海有任何事況發生的話，可以散布這些影片來造成一種氣氛……"],["王委員定宇：因為好幾件了嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：7件，大概我們掌握的有7件。"],["王委員定宇：對，有拍影片的有7件，這7件當中，我認為除了是要打擊我們軍方的士氣，坦白講，這些老鼠屎最對不起的其實是自己軍中的袍澤。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：99.99%的人盡忠職守、保護國家，這些老鼠屎讓國軍被罵，其實我已經找不到什麼話來罵他們，但是他拍這個影片除了打擊士氣以外，其實還有一個作用就是分化人民跟軍方之間的互信。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶喔。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，以委員剛剛所提到的向德恩的那個案子來講，最後院方是用貪污治罪條例來辦，才能判到7年。"],["王委員定宇：我有為了這個事情去詢問，他們認為很可惡，但發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠，現在的罰則是在一個灰色地帶，不容易適用，然後查到他有收錢，所以用貪污治罪條例辦他，他如果有間諜的行為，當然就用共諜方式來辦他。對於這樣的行為，我相信在場沒有黨派之分，都認為不適當，但是目前法律有一個漏洞，這個不是言論自由，有人說那是言論自由，開什麼玩笑！國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠，這如果叫言論自由的話，國家還在嗎？所以法律有個洞嘛，所以本席有提一個修法案，我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形，而且不只是限定軍人，相關單位，向中共的武力犯臺去表忠、表示不抵抗，這個行為不僅不足取、不僅不道德，而且如果是公職人員，不管是什麼身分的公職人員，哪怕是民意代表，這都是違法的行為，所以我們應該用法律補上這個漏洞。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我提這個國安法相關的修正，國安局應該有看過啦……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：你對這個法的態度是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們樂觀其成，也確實是目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間……"],["王委員定宇：這確實是一個洞，這個洞要堵起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織，對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。"],["王委員定宇：對，去發展組織的，我們現在國安法重罰，從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：結果參與組織的變成沒事，這個不對，這個法其實不應該有黨派之分，我也希望在我們立法院也許在很多事情上有重大的分歧，甚至於有肢體衝突，但對於國家安全，我們應該是同一個國家的人，應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的。"],["王委員定宇：我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院審議的時候，藍、綠、白可以一起支持，我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的，也應該要善盡遊說的責任，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們樂觀其成，有需要我們來提供意見，我們會積極參與討論。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝局長、謝謝主席"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，局長請回。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}}