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00:00:19,037\n上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人\n\n2\n00:00:20,075 --> 00:00:31,500\n看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作\n\n3\n00:00:33,628 --> 00:00:57,380\n對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話,應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為\n\n4\n00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:13,042\n局長他明天有講到說地越方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員會討論這件事\n\n5\n00:01:17,085 --> 00:01:42,097\n所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的連動性。那這樣子的連動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?\n\n6\n00:01:43,166 --> 00:01:44,187\n目前北韓和俄羅斯軍事協同狀態如何?\n\n7\n00:02:13,826 --> 00:02:40,401\n因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組\n\n8\n00:02:41,461 --> 00:03:00,465\n來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期\n\n9\n00:03:09,907 --> 00:03:33,652\n這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯\n\n10\n00:03:34,372 --> 00:03:51,773\n各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了,各個外媒都有,所以事實上他們是有受到歧視的,換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間,不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事,普丁跟金正恩是一回事,\n\n11\n00:03:52,173 --> 00:04:10,025\n但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往\n\n12\n00:04:10,285 --> 00:04:10,525\n陳冠廷\n\n13\n00:04:40,405 --> 00:04:40,946\n北韓軍隊的表現如何?\n\n14\n00:04:57,301 --> 00:05:13,900\n如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強\n\n15\n00:05:17,984 --> 00:05:39,066\n但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強\n\n16\n00:05:40,067 --> 00:06:04,155\n幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈\n\n17\n00:06:04,935 --> 00:06:26,367\n這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於\n\n18\n00:06:28,342 --> 00:06:34,791\n被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何他是非常滿意的嗎他們是開心的嗎\n\n19\n00:06:36,185 --> 00:07:03,480\n對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的,也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制,但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入,因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴,所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面,所以\n\n20\n00:07:06,461 --> 00:07:26,646\n中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些這個這個威權國家的這一些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰是包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎\n\n21\n00:07:27,526 --> 00:07:44,474\n中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的\n\n22\n00:07:45,174 --> 00:08:14,594\n我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國\n\n23\n00:08:15,494 --> 00:08:38,309\n這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線\n\n24\n00:08:39,129 --> 00:08:40,170\n臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。\n\n25\n00:09:02,372 --> 00:09:02,452\n陳冠廷\n\n26\n00:09:32,913 --> 00:09:33,173\n陳冠廷\n\n27\n00:09:49,213 --> 00:10:16,013\n這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致\n\n28\n00:10:16,713 --> 00:10:37,970\n跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對\n\n29\n00:10:38,891 --> 00:10:57,308\n那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報\n\n30\n00:10:57,888 --> 00:11:14,043\n對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補\n\n31\n00:11:14,884 --> 00:11:14,904\n謝謝局長\n\n32\n00:11:44,253 --> 00:12:08,438\n這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個\n\n33\n00:12:09,958 --> 00:12:12,200\n主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在\n\n34\n00:12:37,021 --> 00:13:00,974\n這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好\n\n35\n00:13:01,694 --> 00:13:18,580\n這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是deterrence這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源\n\n36\n00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:19,740\n陳冠廷陳冠廷\n\n37\n00:13:47,517 --> 00:13:47,597\n陳冠廷\n\n38\n00:14:09,855 --> 00:14:10,055\n我們繼續來努力,謝偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11194\t19037\t上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人\n20075\t31500\t看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作\n33628\t57380\t對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話,應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為\n58160\t73042\t局長他明天有講到說地越方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員會討論這件事\n77085\t102097\t所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的連動性。那這樣子的連動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?\n103166\t104187\t目前北韓和俄羅斯軍事協同狀態如何?\n133826\t160401\t因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組\n161461\t180465\t來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期\n189907\t213652\t這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯\n214372\t231773\t各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了,各個外媒都有,所以事實上他們是有受到歧視的,換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間,不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事,普丁跟金正恩是一回事,\n232173\t250025\t但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往\n250285\t250525\t陳冠廷\n280405\t280946\t北韓軍隊的表現如何?\n297301\t313900\t如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強\n317984\t339066\t但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強\n340067\t364155\t幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈\n364935\t386367\t這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於\n388342\t394791\t被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何他是非常滿意的嗎他們是開心的嗎\n396185\t423480\t對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的,也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制,但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入,因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴,所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面,所以\n426461\t446646\t中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些這個這個威權國家的這一些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰是包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎\n447526\t464474\t中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的\n465174\t494594\t我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國\n495494\t518309\t這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線\n519129\t520170\t臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。\n542372\t542452\t陳冠廷\n572913\t573173\t陳冠廷\n589213\t616013\t這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報 比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致\n616713\t637970\t跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對\n638891\t657308\t那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報\n657888\t674043\t對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補\n674884\t674904\t謝謝局長\n704253\t728438\t這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個\n729958\t732200\t主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在\n757021\t780974\t這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好\n781694\t798580\t這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源\n799540\t799740\t陳冠廷 陳冠廷\n827517\t827597\t陳冠廷\n849855\t850055\t我們繼續來努力,謝偉\n","txt":"上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人\n看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作\n對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話,應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為\n局長他明天有講到說地越方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員會討論這件事\n所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的連動性。那這樣子的連動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?\n目前北韓和俄羅斯軍事協同狀態如何?\n因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組\n來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期\n這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯\n各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了,各個外媒都有,所以事實上他們是有受到歧視的,換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間,不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事,普丁跟金正恩是一回事,\n但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往\n陳冠廷\n北韓軍隊的表現如何?\n如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強\n但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強\n幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈\n這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於\n被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何他是非常滿意的嗎他們是開心的嗎\n對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的,也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制,但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入,因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴,所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面,所以\n中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些這個這個威權國家的這一些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰是包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎\n中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的\n我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國\n這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線\n臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。\n陳冠廷\n陳冠廷\n這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報 比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致\n跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對\n那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報\n對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補\n謝謝局長\n這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個\n主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在\n這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好\n這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源\n陳冠廷 陳冠廷\n陳冠廷\n我們繼續來努力,謝偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.194 --> 00:19.037\n上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人\n\n00:20.075 --> 00:31.500\n看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作\n\n00:33.628 --> 00:57.380\n對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話,應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為\n\n00:58.160 --> 01:13.042\n局長他明天有講到說地越方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員會討論這件事\n\n01:17.085 --> 01:42.097\n所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的連動性。那這樣子的連動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?\n\n01:43.166 --> 01:44.187\n目前北韓和俄羅斯軍事協同狀態如何?\n\n02:13.826 --> 02:40.401\n因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組\n\n02:41.461 --> 03:00.465\n來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期\n\n03:09.907 --> 03:33.652\n這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯\n\n03:34.372 --> 03:51.773\n各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了,各個外媒都有,所以事實上他們是有受到歧視的,換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間,不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事,普丁跟金正恩是一回事,\n\n03:52.173 --> 04:10.025\n但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往\n\n04:10.285 --> 04:10.525\n陳冠廷\n\n04:40.405 --> 04:40.946\n北韓軍隊的表現如何?\n\n04:57.301 --> 05:13.900\n如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強\n\n05:17.984 --> 05:39.066\n但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強\n\n05:40.067 --> 06:04.155\n幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈\n\n06:04.935 --> 06:26.367\n這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於\n\n06:28.342 --> 06:34.791\n被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何他是非常滿意的嗎他們是開心的嗎\n\n06:36.185 --> 07:03.480\n對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的,也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制,但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入,因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴,所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面,所以\n\n07:06.461 --> 07:26.646\n中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些這個這個威權國家的這一些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰是包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎\n\n07:27.526 --> 07:44.474\n中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的\n\n07:45.174 --> 08:14.594\n我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國\n\n08:15.494 --> 08:38.309\n這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線\n\n08:39.129 --> 08:40.170\n臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。\n\n09:02.372 --> 09:02.452\n陳冠廷\n\n09:32.913 --> 09:33.173\n陳冠廷\n\n09:49.213 --> 10:16.013\n這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致\n\n10:16.713 --> 10:37.970\n跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對\n\n10:38.891 --> 10:57.308\n那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報\n\n10:57.888 --> 11:14.043\n對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補\n\n11:14.884 --> 11:14.904\n謝謝局長\n\n11:44.253 --> 12:08.438\n這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個\n\n12:09.958 --> 12:12.200\n主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在\n\n12:37.021 --> 13:00.974\n這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好\n\n13:01.694 --> 13:18.580\n這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是deterrence這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源\n\n13:19.540 --> 13:19.740\n陳冠廷陳冠廷\n\n13:47.517 --> 13:47.597\n陳冠廷\n\n14:09.855 --> 14:10.055\n我們繼續來努力,謝偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.194,"end":19.037,"text":"上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人"},{"start":20.075,"end":31.5,"text":"看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作"},{"start":33.628,"end":57.38,"text":"對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話,應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為"},{"start":58.16,"end":73.042,"text":"局長他明天有講到說地越方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員會討論這件事"},{"start":77.085,"end":102.097,"text":"所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的連動性。那這樣子的連動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?"},{"start":103.166,"end":104.187,"text":"目前北韓和俄羅斯軍事協同狀態如何?"},{"start":133.826,"end":160.401,"text":"因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組"},{"start":161.461,"end":180.465,"text":"來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期"},{"start":189.907,"end":213.652,"text":"這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯"},{"start":214.372,"end":231.773,"text":"各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了,各個外媒都有,所以事實上他們是有受到歧視的,換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間,不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事,普丁跟金正恩是一回事,"},{"start":232.173,"end":250.025,"text":"但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往"},{"start":250.285,"end":250.525,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":280.405,"end":280.946,"text":"北韓軍隊的表現如何?"},{"start":297.301,"end":313.9,"text":"如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強"},{"start":317.984,"end":339.066,"text":"但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強"},{"start":340.067,"end":364.155,"text":"幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈"},{"start":364.935,"end":386.367,"text":"這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於"},{"start":388.342,"end":394.791,"text":"被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何他是非常滿意的嗎他們是開心的嗎"},{"start":396.185,"end":423.48,"text":"對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的,也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制,但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入,因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴,所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面,所以"},{"start":426.461,"end":446.646,"text":"中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些這個這個威權國家的這一些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰是包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎"},{"start":447.526,"end":464.474,"text":"中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的"},{"start":465.174,"end":494.594,"text":"我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國"},{"start":495.494,"end":518.309,"text":"這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線"},{"start":519.129,"end":520.17,"text":"臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。"},{"start":542.372,"end":542.452,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":572.913,"end":573.173,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":589.213,"end":616.013,"text":"這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報 比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致"},{"start":616.713,"end":637.97,"text":"跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對"},{"start":638.891,"end":657.308,"text":"那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報"},{"start":657.888,"end":674.043,"text":"對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補"},{"start":674.884,"end":674.904,"text":"謝謝局長"},{"start":704.253,"end":728.438,"text":"這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個"},{"start":729.958,"end":732.2,"text":"主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在"},{"start":757.021,"end":780.974,"text":"這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好"},{"start":781.694,"end":798.58,"text":"這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源"},{"start":799.54,"end":799.74,"text":"陳冠廷 陳冠廷"},{"start":827.517,"end":827.597,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":849.855,"end":850.055,"text":"我們繼續來努力,謝偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時1分）我們請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭邊境開始協助作戰，好像說有一萬多人，在我看來，北韓跟俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實質派兵的這個階段，有沒有注意到北韓跟俄羅斯在1號的時候，雙方的外長進行了會談，會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這兩個國家的合作，因為在6月就已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約，我沒有記錯的話，俄國國會應該在9月份也通過了這個條約，顯示他們的合作進入到一個新的階段，包括在軍事技術上的，還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的，以及這一次士兵投入到俄烏的戰場，都變成是他們合作架構裡面非常重要的具體行為。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，他們裡面有講到，締約方之一遭到侵略的時候，必須互相提供軍事協助，這個您也有掌握嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：換言之，萬一北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話，俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員在討論這件事。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，所以是有可能嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有可能。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞，歐洲不是只有歐洲，伊朗中東也不是只有中東，所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起，我們可以這樣去認知他們嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有高度的連動性。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果有這樣的連動性的話，我們就必須要評估，未來在臺海之間，或者是在日本海，或者是在南海，我們看到俄羅斯的存在性或是威脅性提高的可能，是不是也是相應的增加？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：都是相應的增加嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想要請教的是，目前北韓跟俄羅斯之間的軍事協同狀態是怎麼樣？北韓軍隊的表現是怎麼樣？俄羅斯的指揮跟北韓之間的契合狀況是怎麼樣？他們是表現得好，表現得像他們在閱兵大典時一樣，好像氣勢很強、能力很強，還是其實完全是過去媒體高度強化、美化他們的能力？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始，北韓的部隊士兵也才剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作，我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員說明，因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊，都是步兵，擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透。不過在俄烏戰場，因為他的屬性比較特殊，北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係，想要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易，所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊，雙方混合編組來進行一些戰場上的聯合行動，這大概是第一點說明。","第二點說明是，北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙，我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了，他們北韓的士兵也必須學習俄國的軍事用語，聽說學習的軍事用語有100個，可是在學習的過程當中那個適應、理解以及兩國部隊聯合訓練的狀況，還有一個很大的磨合期，這大概是我們在公開情資目前掌握的狀況。"],["陳委員冠廷：磨合的狀況不佳，然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求。第三個我要請教，他們有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前還沒有相關的資訊，因為他們才剛剛開始進行，他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練，適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯克……"],["陳委員冠廷：各種外媒都已經有當初俄羅斯士兵抨擊北韓軍人的語音流出來了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：外媒都有，所以實質上他們是有受到歧視的，換言之，北韓跟俄羅斯之間，他們國與國之間是一回事，普丁跟金正恩是一回事，但是在他們彼此之間、國家之間的交流其實是相對低的，而且之間的這種種族歧視實際上是存在的。我相信我們必須透過立法院這樣的質詢，要讓所有不管是在哪個地區的民眾看到，中國地區的民眾也要知道，俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往不符合他們兩個國家的利益，同時，俄羅斯跟中國之間的交往也是一樣。我們看到俄軍跟中國……他們在批判北韓軍人的時候，通常也都會用種族歧視的話語來去攻擊中國的軍人，就說你們這些中國人等等，所以我們可以知道，不管是北韓還是中國或者是俄羅斯，他們三國之間其實不是大家想像中的是這麼團結的，他們彼此之間的矛盾、衝突，將會在俄烏的戰場上面一一展露出來，他們的協調性、他們的共同作戰能力，也會把這個東西展示出來。所以我必須強調，我們必須把相關的情報、可以釋放的情報，比方說到底北韓軍隊在歐洲這個戰場的表現如何？如果是不好的話，我們必須讓民眾知道不是大家想像的這樣。","最近有很多退役將領常常在一些我們不同的電視臺或者是社群平臺不斷的強調中國的軍事能力、北韓的軍事能力、朝鮮（即北韓）的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強，但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態。甚至我們看到中、俄、朝、伊朗他們其實是聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣，比方說，中國中央相關的這些電視臺就會說，伊朗的防空防禦系統有多強，幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來，事實上不是嘛！但是對於不同文化，就是我根本看不懂伊朗的文字的話，或者說我們根本不知道實質上的狀況，他們地理位置，我們沒有可以做依據的點的話，有些人就會信以為真，不斷的傳這個假訊息，就是說中國的軍事能量多好、防空能力多好，已經進到伊朗，還協助伊朗成功抵禦以色列的導彈，這不是正確的，因為事實上，幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要設施。所以我必須強調，接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰，現在就是會說北朝有多強、俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係多好，但我們要做的是要讓大家知道其實不是這樣子，所以中國對於朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作，他們現在的態度又是如何？他們是非常滿意的嗎？他們是開心的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們發現到的是，中國的處境是比較尷尬的，也就是說，一方面它當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作，可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制，但是另一方面，中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入，因為深入之後，又會降低北韓對於中國在戰略上的依賴，所以中國在這個過程當中是處於一個戰略尷尬的局面。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以不是鐵板一塊，中國與俄羅斯、俄羅斯與朝鮮、朝鮮與中國、中國與伊朗、伊朗與俄羅斯，其實他們這4個國家，你要說這些威權國家的關係，不是我們想像中威權就會站在一起。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有！彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含北韓在擁核這個問題上面，中國會支持嗎？中國不一定是支持的，中國是反對的，他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯合作。所以在輿論上面，其實現在對臺灣來講是非常友善，不管是國際社會、歐洲等等，但過去不一定是這樣的，過去24年來，我們經歷過很長的一段時間，臺灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一分子，也就是說，談到中國才會談到臺灣，但現在臺灣已經跳出來，為什麼？我們有足夠的經濟，我們有足夠的防衛能量，我們可以扮演角色，所以接下來我們就是要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色，我們看到中俄朝在軍事上的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來、浮上檯面，還有資源的交換，那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本、美國這些資源的交換、這些情報的分享？這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密，有些因為是情報合作的關係，沒有辦法公開來討論，但基本上，在合作的議題上，對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態，以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊，還有複合式的威脅，臺灣站在第一線，累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，局長，我都同意，但是我還是要強調，我為什麼今天要問他們在歐洲的表現是什麼？我們必須讓這個敘事框架是說，像中國，我們看到幾乎所有的短影音，現在在社群平臺談到的，就是說他們有最新的科技、最新的軍種等等一一出來，但實際上他們的表現能力是怎麼樣？這就是可以分享的情報。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別是確實就不如理想嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：那這個東西就是要相應的釋放出給有關的政府單位，讓大家知道實際上的狀況，不要被打擊士氣，實際上我們的表現是更好的。除了這個之外，我們講說跟我們價值一致的國家，我們要一起努力什麼的，跟我們價值不一樣的國家，我們一樣必須用地緣政治的關係來跟他們合作，特別是在南海相關的國家，你說越南跟我們的價值觀有一樣嗎？不一樣，但不影響我們的合作，你說菲律賓百分之百跟我們都是完全的民主嗎？如果以民主的指標來看，並沒有像臺灣是一個強韌的民主，那不代表我們不可以跟它合作，包含印尼、包含南海的各聲索國，我們必須讓他們知道說我們的利害是一致的，你要怎麼說服他們說你們的利害是一致的，我們要怎麼說服說我們的行動是一致的，這才是我們必須要釋放出、分享的情報。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：比方說中國最近在南海哪一個地方，可能是對於我國、我們已經實質擁有主權的這個島的部分，它是怎麼樣影響之外，甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡，有影響到比方說越南，有影響到比方說菲律賓，我們的敘事框架必須一致，我們的利害必須一致，跟我們價值相關的，我們繼續推動價值外交，沒有問題；跟我們價值不一樣的，我們用地緣政治的外交去講；跟我們價值、跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的，我們就可以更進一步。比方說，我們剛剛提到怎麼樣得到最新式的裝備，我們一直在講說灰色侵擾，我們海巡的裝備能不能快速的、有效的應對？現在去製造的話，可能需要5年、10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制，但如果沒有辦法的話，是不是可以討論租借的可能性？目前我們記得烏克蘭的租借法後，有美議員在提到臺灣的租借法，有沒有提到相關現在的進展是怎麼樣？有沒有相關這樣的情報？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作，我們當然是廣結善緣，不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作，我們自己有我們自己的強項，其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方，透過這樣的合作來建立起一種比較互補還有互利的合作關係。因為中共近幾年在周邊的海、空域的擴張非常嚴重，這讓我們有一個很好的背景跟環境來讓相關的國家針對中共擴張的議題交換意見，一起來關注中共跟其他國家，包括委員剛剛在螢幕上提到的中俄的海上聯演，我們都有在注意他們聯演的程度是怎麼樣，包括後勤補給的資源有沒有一起分享，我們都看得非常多細節。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。我必須強調，他們的能力增加的時候，我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話，那就是快速的跟我們理念相近的國家、跟我們價值相近的國家、利害相近的國家，跟他們不管是用租借或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要。最後我還是要強調一下，最近中共的西鬆東緊戰略，最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化，有些人就會說，這個是表示中共讓步，我個人會比較警惕一點，我認為它是先把資源往東部移動，是不是有這種可能性？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為中印才剛剛簽署他們邊境巡邏的相關協定，看起來是有在控管彼此的雙邊關係，主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙，已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重，所以特別在這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：我是擔心它可能會把這些相關的軍事資源移到東部，甚至是臺灣海峽這個部分……"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們來注意。"],["陳委員冠廷：有這樣的消息，我們就是儘量來反映給其他的……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，跟委員說明一下，因為中印邊境的問題是結構的，它現在只是在管理，並沒有辦法根本地解決。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，這是結構的問題，我必須強調，我們跟印度之間的關係更是要重視，因為就算它是百分之百中立的狀況，也會讓中國有所忌憚，這就是deterrence、戰略的嚇阻。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為他們必須還是要把資源的一部分分布在西部，所以我們跟印度之間的交往，不管是在你說的商業上面、軍事上面、科技上面，都還是會給中共施加一點壓力。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們所有不管是情報工作、軍事工作的重點，就是要讓中國它的計算更加複雜化，要讓它能夠再想一次，當他們要做出任何對臺灣擴大衝突的時候，有沒有可能會完全失敗？有沒有可能會部分失敗？讓它不斷地在思考這個地方。特別你要想到它周邊的各個國家，都是跟它在地緣上真的是有挑戰的，而不是友好的，不管是越南也好，最近有看到越南民眾在南海捕魚被中國包圍……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。"],["陳委員冠廷：這些東西我們都必須……如果臺灣有類似狀況的話，跟越南說、跟世界說，這就是共同面臨到的威脅，我們如果未來要在印太地區、在印太戰略上面表現出我們的價值的話，這就是一個方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們繼續來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，局長請回。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}}