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\"這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 690.089, \"end\": 690.57, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 690.57, \"end\": 690.83, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 690.83, \"end\": 690.99, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"玩\", \"start\": 690.99, \"end\": 691.25, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 691.25, \"end\": 691.47, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 691.47, \"end\": 692.071, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"遊\"}, {\"word\": \"戲\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 692.071, \"end\": 692.712, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 692.712, \"end\": 692.852, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 692.852, \"end\": 693.052, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 693.052, 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 704.342, \"end\": 704.622, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 704.622, \"end\": 704.862, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 704.862, \"end\": 705.103, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 705.103, \"end\": 705.263, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 705.263, \"end\": 705.403, \"score\": 0.392}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 705.403, \"end\": 705.543, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 705.543, \"end\": 705.703, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 705.703, \"end\": 706.103, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 706.103, \"end\": 706.364, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 706.364, \"end\": 706.584, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 706.584, \"end\": 706.724, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 706.724, \"end\": 707.004, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 707.004, \"end\": 707.244, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 707.244, \"end\": 707.885, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"獲\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 707.885, \"end\": 708.426, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 708.426, \"end\": 708.846, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 708.846, \"end\": 709.026, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 709.026, \"end\": 709.146, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 709.146, \"end\": 709.326, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 709.326, \"end\": 709.547, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 709.547, \"end\": 709.707, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 709.707, \"end\": 709.847, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 709.847, \"end\": 710.267, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 710.267, \"end\": 710.287, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 710.287, \"end\": 710.367, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 710.367, \"end\": 710.387, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 710.387, \"end\": 710.407, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 710.407, \"end\": 710.427, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 712.469, \"end\": 728.743, \"text\": \"所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 712.469, \"end\": 712.649, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 712.649, \"end\": 712.769, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 712.769, \"end\": 713.45, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 713.45, \"end\": 713.59, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 713.59, \"end\": 713.73, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 713.73, \"end\": 713.87, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": 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00:00:50,888\n因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同\n\n3\n00:00:53,309 --> 00:01:06,956\n對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在\n\n4\n00:01:10,658 --> 00:01:11,099\n對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?\n\n5\n00:01:31,679 --> 00:01:51,889\n兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的\n\n6\n00:01:52,509 --> 00:01:53,349\n因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統\n\n7\n00:02:09,534 --> 00:02:13,777\n對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭\n\n8\n00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:36,810\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n9\n00:02:54,758 --> 00:03:09,028\n我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響\n\n10\n00:03:10,028 --> 00:03:14,150\n這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區\n\n11\n00:03:32,119 --> 00:03:55,366\n有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高\n\n12\n00:03:56,206 --> 00:04:10,777\n我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到\n\n13\n00:04:20,784 --> 00:04:29,137\n北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢\n\n14\n00:04:36,267 --> 00:04:54,540\n因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們\n\n15\n00:04:56,421 --> 00:05:24,024\n對我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心\n\n16\n00:05:25,845 --> 00:05:26,406\n所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊\n\n17\n00:05:49,261 --> 00:06:18,981\n我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:20,362 --> 00:06:36,478\n對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講\n\n19\n00:06:37,799 --> 00:06:52,288\n中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的\n\n20\n00:06:52,861 --> 00:07:11,286\n不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣\n\n21\n00:07:11,946 --> 00:07:24,590\n所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判\n\n22\n00:07:27,771 --> 00:07:40,423\n那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該\n\n23\n00:07:46,549 --> 00:08:13,030\n我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動\n\n24\n00:08:14,992 --> 00:08:15,832\n民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險\n\n25\n00:08:29,667 --> 00:08:32,148\n美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們\n\n26\n00:08:53,553 --> 00:08:53,593\n副部長\n\n27\n00:09:04,741 --> 00:09:19,906\n馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比\n\n28\n00:09:31,970 --> 00:09:47,322\n拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做\n\n29\n00:09:49,605 --> 00:10:09,423\n報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力\n\n30\n00:10:10,223 --> 00:10:35,021\n現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做\n\n31\n00:10:37,122 --> 00:11:06,085\n報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化\n\n32\n00:11:07,045 --> 00:11:23,823\n我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕\n\n33\n00:11:30,089 --> 00:11:50,427\n這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長\n\n34\n00:11:52,469 --> 00:12:08,743\n所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統\n\n35\n00:12:09,904 --> 00:12:20,689\n就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度\n\n36\n00:12:37,041 --> 00:12:45,489\n謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求\n\n37\n00:12:54,958 --> 00:13:01,679\n絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心\n\n38\n00:13:22,984 --> 00:13:28,388\n經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的\n\n39\n00:13:52,185 --> 00:13:54,668\n再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?\n\n40\n00:14:10,872 --> 00:14:33,097\n原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以\n\n41\n00:14:40,376 --> 00:14:41,377\n為什麼不可以看機密?\n\n42\n00:14:56,875 --> 00:15:04,860\n我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在\n\n43\n00:15:22,697 --> 00:15:50,976\n副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件\n\n44\n00:15:52,795 --> 00:16:14,114\n幫委員這個我們可以檢討因為過去既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的\n\n45\n00:16:14,634 --> 00:16:28,624\n都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成\n\n46\n00:16:38,772 --> 00:16:39,653\n他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告\n\n47\n00:17:08,168 --> 00:17:08,248\n一個禮拜\n\n48\n00:17:30,495 --> 00:17:51,790\n委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n589\t9991\t謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬文好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果\n29455\t50888\t因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同\n53309\t66956\t對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在\n70658\t71099\t對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?\n91679\t111889\t兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的\n112509\t113349\t因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統\n129534\t133777\t對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭\n156770\t156810\t﹚馬文君﹚\n174758\t189028\t我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響\n190028\t194150\t這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區\n212119\t235366\t有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高\n236206\t250777\t我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到\n260784\t269137\t北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢\n276267\t294540\t因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們\n296421\t324024\t對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓 派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心\n325845\t326406\t所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊\n349261\t378981\t我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼\n380362\t396478\t對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講\n397799\t412288\t中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的\n412861\t431286\t不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣\n431946\t444590\t所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判\n447771\t460423\t那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該\n466549\t493030\t我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動\n494992\t495832\t民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險\n509667\t512148\t美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們\n533553\t533593\t副部長\n544741\t559906\t馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比\n571970\t587322\t拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做\n589605\t609423\t報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力\n610223\t635021\t現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做\n637122\t666085\t報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化\n667045\t683823\t我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕\n690089\t710427\t這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長\n712469\t728743\t所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統\n729904\t740689\t就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度\n757041\t765489\t謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求\n774958\t781679\t絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心\n802984\t808388\t經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的\n832185\t834668\t再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?\n850872\t873097\t原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以\n880376\t881377\t為什麼不可以看機密?\n896875\t904860\t我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在\n922697\t950976\t副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件\n952795\t974114\t幫委員 這個我們可以檢討因為過去 既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的\n974634\t988624\t都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成\n998772\t999653\t他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告\n1028168\t1028248\t一個禮拜\n1050495\t1071790\t委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬文好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果\n因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同\n對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在\n對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?\n兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的\n因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統\n對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭\n﹚馬文君﹚\n我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響\n這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區\n有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高\n我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到\n北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢\n因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們\n對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓 派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心\n所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊\n我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼\n對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講\n中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的\n不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣\n所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判\n那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該\n我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動\n民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險\n美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們\n副部長\n馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比\n拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做\n報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力\n現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做\n報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化\n我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕\n這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長\n所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統\n就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度\n謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求\n絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心\n經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的\n再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?\n原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以\n為什麼不可以看機密?\n我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在\n副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件\n幫委員 這個我們可以檢討因為過去 既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的\n都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成\n他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告\n一個禮拜\n委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.589 --> 00:09.991\n謝謝主席麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好謝謝主席馬文好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果\n\n00:29.455 --> 00:50.888\n因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同\n\n00:53.309 --> 01:06.956\n對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在\n\n01:10.658 --> 01:11.099\n對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?\n\n01:31.679 --> 01:51.889\n兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的\n\n01:52.509 --> 01:53.349\n因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統\n\n02:09.534 --> 02:13.777\n對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭\n\n02:36.770 --> 02:36.810\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n02:54.758 --> 03:09.028\n我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響\n\n03:10.028 --> 03:14.150\n這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區\n\n03:32.119 --> 03:55.366\n有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高\n\n03:56.206 --> 04:10.777\n我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到\n\n04:20.784 --> 04:29.137\n北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢\n\n04:36.267 --> 04:54.540\n因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們\n\n04:56.421 --> 05:24.024\n對我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心\n\n05:25.845 --> 05:26.406\n所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊\n\n05:49.261 --> 06:18.981\n我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼\n\n06:20.362 --> 06:36.478\n對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講\n\n06:37.799 --> 06:52.288\n中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的\n\n06:52.861 --> 07:11.286\n不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣\n\n07:11.946 --> 07:24.590\n所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判\n\n07:27.771 --> 07:40.423\n那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該\n\n07:46.549 --> 08:13.030\n我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動\n\n08:14.992 --> 08:15.832\n民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險\n\n08:29.667 --> 08:32.148\n美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們\n\n08:53.553 --> 08:53.593\n副部長\n\n09:04.741 --> 09:19.906\n馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比\n\n09:31.970 --> 09:47.322\n拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做\n\n09:49.605 --> 10:09.423\n報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力\n\n10:10.223 --> 10:35.021\n現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做\n\n10:37.122 --> 11:06.085\n報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化\n\n11:07.045 --> 11:23.823\n我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕\n\n11:30.089 --> 11:50.427\n這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長\n\n11:52.469 --> 12:08.743\n所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統\n\n12:09.904 --> 12:20.689\n就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度\n\n12:37.041 --> 12:45.489\n謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求\n\n12:54.958 --> 13:01.679\n絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心\n\n13:22.984 --> 13:28.388\n經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的\n\n13:52.185 --> 13:54.668\n再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?\n\n14:10.872 --> 14:33.097\n原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以\n\n14:40.376 --> 14:41.377\n為什麼不可以看機密?\n\n14:56.875 --> 15:04.860\n我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在\n\n15:22.697 --> 15:50.976\n副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件\n\n15:52.795 --> 16:14.114\n幫委員這個我們可以檢討因為過去既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的\n\n16:14.634 --> 16:28.624\n都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成\n\n16:38.772 --> 16:39.653\n他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告\n\n17:08.168 --> 17:08.248\n一個禮拜\n\n17:30.495 --> 17:51.790\n委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.589,"end":9.991,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬文好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果"},{"start":29.455,"end":50.888,"text":"因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同"},{"start":53.309,"end":66.956,"text":"對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在"},{"start":70.658,"end":71.099,"text":"對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?"},{"start":91.679,"end":111.889,"text":"兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的"},{"start":112.509,"end":113.349,"text":"因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統"},{"start":129.534,"end":133.777,"text":"對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭"},{"start":156.77,"end":156.81,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":174.758,"end":189.028,"text":"我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響"},{"start":190.028,"end":194.15,"text":"這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區"},{"start":212.119,"end":235.366,"text":"有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高"},{"start":236.206,"end":250.777,"text":"我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到"},{"start":260.784,"end":269.137,"text":"北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢"},{"start":276.267,"end":294.54,"text":"因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們"},{"start":296.421,"end":324.024,"text":"對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓 派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心"},{"start":325.845,"end":326.406,"text":"所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊"},{"start":349.261,"end":378.981,"text":"我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼"},{"start":380.362,"end":396.478,"text":"對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講"},{"start":397.799,"end":412.288,"text":"中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的"},{"start":412.861,"end":431.286,"text":"不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣"},{"start":431.946,"end":444.59,"text":"所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判"},{"start":447.771,"end":460.423,"text":"那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該"},{"start":466.549,"end":493.03,"text":"我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動"},{"start":494.992,"end":495.832,"text":"民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險"},{"start":509.667,"end":512.148,"text":"美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們"},{"start":533.553,"end":533.593,"text":"副部長"},{"start":544.741,"end":559.906,"text":"馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比"},{"start":571.97,"end":587.322,"text":"拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做"},{"start":589.605,"end":609.423,"text":"報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力"},{"start":610.223,"end":635.021,"text":"現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做"},{"start":637.122,"end":666.085,"text":"報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化"},{"start":667.045,"end":683.823,"text":"我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕"},{"start":690.089,"end":710.427,"text":"這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長"},{"start":712.469,"end":728.743,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統"},{"start":729.904,"end":740.689,"text":"就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":757.041,"end":765.489,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求"},{"start":774.958,"end":781.679,"text":"絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心"},{"start":802.984,"end":808.388,"text":"經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的"},{"start":832.185,"end":834.668,"text":"再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?"},{"start":850.872,"end":873.097,"text":"原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以"},{"start":880.376,"end":881.377,"text":"為什麼不可以看機密?"},{"start":896.875,"end":904.86,"text":"我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在"},{"start":922.697,"end":950.976,"text":"副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件"},{"start":952.795,"end":974.114,"text":"幫委員 這個我們可以檢討因為過去 既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的"},{"start":974.634,"end":988.624,"text":"都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成"},{"start":998.772,"end":999.653,"text":"他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告"},{"start":1028.168,"end":1028.248,"text":"一個禮拜"},{"start":1050.495,"end":1071.79,"text":"委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部柏副部長。"],["主席：請蔡局長、副部長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天全球都在關注的就是美國的大選，現在雖然結果還沒有出來，不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果，因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選，他對我們臺灣一定有非常大的影響。就這個部分，我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析，大概他們兩位當選，對我們臺海的局勢也好或者我們整體的區域安全也好，有什麼樣的不同？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有，跟委員報告，這次的選情真的很膠著，7個關鍵州民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2，所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果。但是正如委員所講的，針對不同的總統當選人，後續可能在國安或外交政策人事布局的部分，我們一直有在關注。再來是他們在選舉過程當中，對於一些政策議題，包括印太的政策、對中的政策、臺海的政策、經貿的政策、科技產業的政策，我們都有一個完整的蒐研。"],["馬委員文君：對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩位的相關的政策討論，事實上，剛剛我在進來會場之前也有跟媒體說明，基本上，制中友臺這個路線應該不會有太大的改變，因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對臺政策的一個基本立場，是建立在臺灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上，所以在基本的路線上不會有太大的改變，但是現在要注意的是政策細節的部分，不同的團隊應該會有他們不同重視的一些議題，這部分才是我們關注的重點。"],["馬委員文君：因為顯然就他們兩位，過去川普也曾經擔任過美國總統，對我們來說，現在賀錦麗雖然是新的，不過因為他還是追隨拜登總統這樣的路線，我想差異也不大，對我們來說，因為川普在競選期間也提到，像俄烏戰爭，他很快就會讓它停止，他會用什麼樣的方式、策略、手段我們不曉得，可是一旦俄烏戰爭停止以後，其實我們可能也會產生一些變化，這跟他的過去也許也會有一些不太一樣，這個部分因為我們沒有辦法現在做臆測，可是我們好像也聽不到剛剛局長有特別說明兩個的差異，或者未來我們必須面對的是什麼。我再請教一個問題，就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯，對於我們周邊的區域安全，或者周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個倒有的……"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢出現更密切的連動，而關切的重點，一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後，萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話，俄國會不會來協助北韓？這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點；第二個是在印太地區，有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下，臺海安全的重要性，我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視，也在書面報告有提到，今年以來已經有9個國家在臺海進行海軍船艦的巡航，已經有15次之多，表示大家對於臺海情勢的關注程度越來越高。"],["馬委員文君：局長，我想我們可以在這裡探討一下，有很多其他國家在這邊巡航，其實有很多只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的，他們並不是真的在乎臺灣的處境，當然臺海的局勢會牽動所有後續的影響，可是他們在乎的還是他們自己，所以我們現在為什麼特別提到北韓派兵援助俄羅斯這個部分？因為如果增加這樣的兵力，或者像一個軍事行動的時候，可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島，還有就是歐洲的局勢，因為他們只要一牽動，再加上是不是會對日本造成影響？日本有影響的時候會不會分心？或者美國會不會分心？這個可能才是我們要比較注意的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對。"],["馬委員文君：對岸對他們會採取什麼樣的方向？您的看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國……"],["馬委員文君：就北韓派兵去俄羅斯，你覺得對岸的態度會是怎麼樣？或者它的策略會有什麼樣的調整？它的角色、立場？"],["蔡局長明彥：就北韓參戰的問題來講，我們的分析是認為中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境，也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷的強化，中國也會有點擔心北韓對中國的依賴或關係也會受到一些影響，但另一方面，北韓的參戰能不能夠讓俄國在戰場上因為有北韓兵援的投入，能夠不會有遭遇更多烏軍的反撲？中國在這方面又有點期待，所以我們剛剛在講說它有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊。"],["馬委員文君：我想其實它倒不一定是尷尬，可是它希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢，如果北韓去協助俄羅斯的話，未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他相關技術的支援等等類似這樣……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有。"],["馬委員文君：因為你在報告上面有說，中國希望在這中間可以獲取最大的利益，這個利益是什麼？你們評估的利益是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：在這個過程當中，俄國跟北韓的合作，對中國來講，有一部分的戰略利益是可以對美日同盟造成一個牽制，讓美日同盟在這邊受到俄國和北韓合作的戰略牽制，但另一方面來講，中國最擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的，因為俄國在跟北韓合作的過程當中開始提供北韓很多經濟援助，也提供北韓去改善它衛星火箭的技術，這個部分又不是中國所樂意看到的。"],["馬委員文君：不過國際上還有很多其他的專家學者、期刊或論述甚至認為，北韓、俄羅斯、中國、伊朗可能會串連在一起，這跟我們的看法又不太一樣，所以其實在我們的評估上面還有很多可能性。不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位，因為我們常常都只看中共的動向，包括像最近中、日、韓就要重啟一些相關的談判，日本跟中國也是一樣，他們為了自身很多不管經濟也好，未來國家整體發展也好，還是都有很多談判的條件跟空間，他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時都在調整當中，當他們變好的時候，我們又應該……","我們一直講什麼所有什麼理念相近的國家啦！民主國家啦！什麼都會幫我們，可是顯然，我們看到很多現在緊張的局勢，不管中東的局勢也好，不管俄烏的局勢也好，顯然都不是像我們說的這樣。這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位，其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共，要看的是我們整體的周邊，還有整體的全球相關局勢的牽動，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就基本上……"],["馬委員文君：希望可以提供一些更精準的研析。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。基本上，在結構上正如剛剛跟委員報告的，民主陣營跟威權陣營的對立確實在升高，只是也有在管理一些風險，所以才會有一些基於國家利益算計的交往。"],["馬委員文君：沒關係！我們看不出風險的管理，因為我們看到的緊張態勢好像是越來越緊張。美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來，這個部分還是請國安單位能比較具體地讓大家知道。","上次我跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們，下去以後……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來瞭解一下。"],["馬委員文君：馬上好不好？這個禮拜就應該給我們了，已經很久了。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來處理。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：局長請回。請副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：副部長好。因為剛剛有提到美國大選，其實最重要的國安評析和研析，對我們來說，國防部是比較具體的作為，想要請教副部長，如果川普當選的話，因為他之前擔任總統的時候，出售給臺灣的武器裝備（軍售的部分）比拜登總統高出三倍，他甚至揚言我們應該要交保護費，國防預算還要占GDP的10%，請問國防部的看法怎麼樣、會怎麼做？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想我們對於美國的選舉都很重視，但是……"],["馬委員文君：我是說……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：重要的是我們部長特別強調，今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立，我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防戰力，那……"],["馬委員文君：現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的呢？因為川普之前就已經賣給我們這麼多武器裝備，到現在很多我們都還沒拿到，拜登總統的時候也是，可是川普當初的金額高出那麼多，而他這次當選之後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出，那麼我們國防部的角色呢？我想要知道：我們國防部會怎麼做？可以怎麼做？敢怎麼做？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，事實上來講，不管誰當選，他們對臺軍售到目前為止我們看並沒有什麼變化，因為軍售是國與國之間簽訂合約，你也非常清楚，所以……"],["馬委員文君：他需要你買更多的時候呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：那要看未來的發展。我們都會因應，也就是說，這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上的變化，但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的，這一點就目前來講我們並沒有看到任何變化。"],["馬委員文君：我們看到的是我們的軍售並沒有如期獲得，因為在對外的公開資訊裡面說我們只剩下2個稍微有延宕，那是錯的！因為你們把期程延後了，本來5年的，你們把它延成10年，然後都是最後一年才要交齊給我們，當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕，其實這是錯的，這是在玩文字遊戲！你付錢的時候是一期、一期耶，他們應該給到多少的時候，我們才付多少，所以不要用文字的錯覺讓人民以為我們已經拿到了，或者是我們都可以如期獲得，這是錯的！我再提醒一次，是我們把期程延長！像魚叉飛彈，它突然插進來，866億，現在有很多，如果連其他的再加進來，可能超過千億，可是它到現在還沒有辦法給我們！它延了10年！類似這樣的情況，如果川普再次當選，我們國防部可不可以強勢一點？你要有決心！你的決心要讓人民信任！因為如果你買的不是我們需要的，或者是我們無法如期如質獲得的，這樣大家其實會對我們整個的國防和軍事更失望！這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員提醒。這當然是國人關心的事情，而且這是重大投資，所以在未來來講……"],["馬委員文君：敢不敢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：就如委員所說的……"],["馬委員文君：敢不敢跟美方多談判，提出我們的需求？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然！"],["馬委員文君：你的決心要讓大家看得到啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們的決心絕對是我們的防衛需求，絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我們；一定是我們的需求！"],["馬委員文君：可是我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷的。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這一點在未來來講，我們也會在立法院監督的情況之下跟委員報告，我們所有的防衛需求是依照臺灣的特殊環境來建設我們的戰力，絕對不會是因為人家今天強推給我，而且這也要經過委員會的同意啊！這個東西都是經過監督的，我想這一點我們絕對有強烈的決心！"],["馬委員文君：沒有、沒有，你說「經過監督」，這樣就會把責任推給立法院……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不會、不會。報告委員，這個我們有計畫……"],["馬委員文君：我現在要說的是，川普如果當選，現在還不曉得，也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統，可是如果他們有這樣子的要求，我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：絕對是！絕對是！"],["馬委員文君：現在已經要審預算了，我看還是有很多問題，可能後續大家還要討論。","今天部長也不在，我想要請教一下為什麼會做這樣的調整：機密的案子過去都會給我們所有委員一本相關的參考資料，今年不給的原因是什麼？不好意思，主席，我借一點點時間。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長……"],["馬委員文君：告訴我原因就好，為什麼過去、一直以來都有，今年突然沒有？"],["謝局長其賢：因為機密的摘要本它本身還是內含機密的資訊，我們依據國家機密保護法，有關機密的預算書表，都按照立法院的來文，在501會議室做陳列。"],["馬委員文君：那過去為什麼可以？"],["謝局長其賢：過去是因為以往曾經有委員要求說要提供摘要本，讓委員可以看到機密的一些建案的摘要內容，但是它本身還是有機密資訊，因為我們是核密單位……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼不可以看機密？因為我們在監督、審查的時候，本來就可以看啊！除非我們洩密嘛！從過去到現在，你最好把洩密查清楚！尤其是去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案，應該都要把它查清楚，趁這個機會！很可惜，調查權沒有通過！我們希望它可以通過，因為洩密是誰洩的？是立法委員嗎？你有查到嗎？副部長是空軍出身的，在今年的機密案裡面有一個C-130H的提升案，對不對？媒體早就把它報導出來了，包括你的金額、包括你的內容，寫得非常詳細、非常清楚，這個部分它怎麼洩出去的？為什麼立法委員不可以看？我想請教副部長，明年的機密案有幾件？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這個我們可以檢討，因為過去既然是那樣，為什麼今年改成這樣，我覺得我們主計局還要再思考一下。今天委員本來就有監督的權利，至於……"],["馬委員文君：不然下次我就考你們喔！就是你要把所有的統統記下來，不然我們光是去看一次，大家都可以記到金額，包括你的期程、包括你的內容，因為所有的資料都是用你們的案名、都是有另外取名字的，所以你叫大家去記，我們也可以反過來考你們吧！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["馬委員文君：如果你們建案的內容，或者是它跟過去有什麼關聯，自己都記不清楚……","我覺得你們為什麼做這樣的調整，包括我們現在的委員都是新的，你的案子，其實我們所有的機密案都不是一年完成，它都是延續性的，你突然都不給看，大家根本不知道你過去有什麼案子啊！你做得好不好、花了多少錢，未來是不是還應該要繼續這樣子做？大家不知道啊！你在掩蓋什麼呢？你可以給媒體披露出來，你不可以給應該監督的立法委員看？我們應該看你的錢怎麼花，你叫大家用背的嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這個部分，我下去再跟我們主計局討論，他的觀點是從哪裡，我再跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：不用跟我報告，你讓我們知道為什麼過去可以，現在不行？如果你要這樣子說的話，先把現在洩漏出去的所有洩密案，包括你們之前為什麼更改很多的案名，全部把它查出來，你必須要做一個交代以後，你才可以做這樣的調整好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以給我們結果？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：一個禮拜。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼要一個禮拜？你為什麼做這樣的決定，為什麼要一個禮拜？我們又不是要……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們下去再檢討一下，再跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：禮拜五之前告訴我們，我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：不然你們所有的案子，我隨便抽查，你們就通通要記住，不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，委員，我們下去跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}}