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\"位\", \"start\": 688.348, \"end\": 688.368, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 706.801, \"end\": 707.142, \"text\": \"委員會主席\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 706.801, \"end\": 707.082, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 707.082, \"end\": 707.122, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 707.122, \"end\": 707.142, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 723.903, \"end\": 727.324, \"text\": \"部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 723.903, \"end\": 723.923, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 723.923, \"end\": 724.103, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 724.103, \"end\": 724.163, \"score\": 0.306}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 724.163, \"end\": 724.283, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 724.283, \"end\": 724.303, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 724.303, \"end\": 724.403, 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\"可\", \"start\": 794.711, \"end\": 794.791, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 794.791, \"end\": 794.851, \"score\": 0.302}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 794.851, \"end\": 794.991, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 794.991, \"end\": 795.111, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 795.111, \"end\": 795.251, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 795.251, \"end\": 795.271, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:06,633\n請林部長跟梁副主委兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道\n\n2\n00:00:29,188 --> 00:00:44,717\n臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同\n\n3\n00:00:46,158 --> 00:01:05,800\n那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格\n\n4\n00:01:07,902 --> 00:01:34,351\n那這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長\n\n5\n00:01:38,572 --> 00:02:00,712\n當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就質問說你覺得台灣我們的政府\n\n6\n00:02:01,453 --> 00:02:12,846\n對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?\n\n7\n00:02:13,985 --> 00:02:14,586\n同樣的我想問副主席\n\n8\n00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:48,792\n我覺得台灣有很多東西還要做我今天就特別針對的是科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方我想問副主委\n\n9\n00:02:51,688 --> 00:03:07,096\n我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?\n\n10\n00:03:08,217 --> 00:03:11,320\n我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天才在一個執政黨立法委員的角度\n\n11\n00:03:28,286 --> 00:03:57,466\n兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括\n\n12\n00:03:58,291 --> 00:04:24,711\n我們的財經部會應該要明確地反映這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情了我們如果沒有做好比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面\n\n13\n00:04:26,872 --> 00:04:52,267\n但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個\n\n14\n00:04:52,947 --> 00:05:18,001\n第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在\n\n15\n00:05:21,058 --> 00:05:50,037\n今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會\n\n16\n00:05:51,799 --> 00:06:09,030\n他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用\n\n17\n00:06:10,657 --> 00:06:11,558\n同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊\n\n18\n00:06:36,755 --> 00:07:04,171\n因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會\n\n19\n00:07:05,091 --> 00:07:28,354\n未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方\n\n20\n00:07:29,321 --> 00:07:51,578\n甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分\n\n21\n00:07:54,194 --> 00:08:18,352\n我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊\n\n22\n00:08:18,852 --> 00:08:34,883\n部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關\n\n23\n00:08:35,843 --> 00:09:04,366\n他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度\n\n24\n00:09:05,387 --> 00:09:24,746\n那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。\n\n25\n00:09:26,828 --> 00:09:51,285\n這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得\n\n26\n00:09:53,166 --> 00:10:21,997\n可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話\n\n27\n00:10:22,857 --> 00:10:43,454\n我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙\n\n28\n00:10:45,236 --> 00:11:03,959\n我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話\n\n29\n00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,921\n部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印\n\n30\n00:11:24,105 --> 00:11:28,368\n在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位\n\n31\n00:11:46,801 --> 00:11:47,142\n委員會主席\n\n32\n00:12:03,903 --> 00:12:07,324\n部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人\n\n33\n00:12:22,645 --> 00:12:49,522\n這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧\n\n34\n00:12:50,322 --> 00:13:15,271\n是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t6633\t請林部長跟梁副主委兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道\n29188\t44717\t臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同\n46158\t65800\t那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格\n67902\t94351\t那這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長\n98572\t120712\t當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就質問說你覺得台灣我們的政府\n121453\t132846\t對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?\n133985\t134586\t同樣的我想問副主席\n154156\t168792\t我覺得台灣有很多東西還要做我今天就特別針對的是科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方我想問副主委\n171688\t187096\t我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?\n188217\t191320\t我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天才在一個執政黨立法委員的角度\n208286\t237466\t兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括\n238291\t264711\t我們的財經部會應該要明確地反映這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情了我們如果沒有做好比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面\n266872\t292267\t但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個\n292947\t318001\t第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在\n321058\t350037\t今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會\n351799\t369030\t他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用\n370657\t371558\t同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊\n396755\t424171\t因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會\n425091\t448354\t未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方\n449321\t471578\t甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分\n474194\t498352\t我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊\n498852\t514883\t部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關\n515843\t544366\t他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度\n545387\t564746\t那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。\n566828\t591285\t這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得\n593166\t621997\t可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話\n622857\t643454\t我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙\n645236\t663959\t我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話\n664840\t669921\t部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印\n684105\t688368\t在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位\n706801\t707142\t委員會主席\n723903\t727324\t部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人\n742645\t769522\t這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧\n770322\t795271\t是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。\n","txt":"請林部長跟梁副主委兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道\n臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同\n那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格\n那這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長\n當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就質問說你覺得台灣我們的政府\n對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?\n同樣的我想問副主席\n我覺得台灣有很多東西還要做我今天就特別針對的是科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方我想問副主委\n我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?\n我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天才在一個執政黨立法委員的角度\n兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括\n我們的財經部會應該要明確地反映這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情了我們如果沒有做好比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面\n但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個\n第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在\n今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會\n他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用\n同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊\n因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會\n未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方\n甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分\n我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊\n部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關\n他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度\n那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。\n這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得\n可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話\n我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙\n我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話\n部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印\n在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位\n委員會主席\n部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人\n這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧\n是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:06.633\n請林部長跟梁副主委兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道\n\n00:29.188 --> 00:44.717\n臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同\n\n00:46.158 --> 01:05.800\n那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格\n\n01:07.902 --> 01:34.351\n那這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長\n\n01:38.572 --> 02:00.712\n當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就質問說你覺得台灣我們的政府\n\n02:01.453 --> 02:12.846\n對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?\n\n02:13.985 --> 02:14.586\n同樣的我想問副主席\n\n02:34.156 --> 02:48.792\n我覺得台灣有很多東西還要做我今天就特別針對的是科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方我想問副主委\n\n02:51.688 --> 03:07.096\n我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?\n\n03:08.217 --> 03:11.320\n我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天才在一個執政黨立法委員的角度\n\n03:28.286 --> 03:57.466\n兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括\n\n03:58.291 --> 04:24.711\n我們的財經部會應該要明確地反映這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情了我們如果沒有做好比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面\n\n04:26.872 --> 04:52.267\n但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個\n\n04:52.947 --> 05:18.001\n第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在\n\n05:21.058 --> 05:50.037\n今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會\n\n05:51.799 --> 06:09.030\n他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用\n\n06:10.657 --> 06:11.558\n同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊\n\n06:36.755 --> 07:04.171\n因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會\n\n07:05.091 --> 07:28.354\n未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方\n\n07:29.321 --> 07:51.578\n甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分\n\n07:54.194 --> 08:18.352\n我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊\n\n08:18.852 --> 08:34.883\n部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關\n\n08:35.843 --> 09:04.366\n他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度\n\n09:05.387 --> 09:24.746\n那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。\n\n09:26.828 --> 09:51.285\n這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得\n\n09:53.166 --> 10:21.997\n可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話\n\n10:22.857 --> 10:43.454\n我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙\n\n10:45.236 --> 11:03.959\n我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話\n\n11:04.840 --> 11:09.921\n部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印\n\n11:24.105 --> 11:28.368\n在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位\n\n11:46.801 --> 11:47.142\n委員會主席\n\n12:03.903 --> 12:07.324\n部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人\n\n12:22.645 --> 12:49.522\n這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧\n\n12:50.322 --> 13:15.271\n是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":6.633,"text":"請林部長跟梁副主委兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道"},{"start":29.188,"end":44.717,"text":"臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同"},{"start":46.158,"end":65.8,"text":"那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格"},{"start":67.902,"end":94.351,"text":"那這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長"},{"start":98.572,"end":120.712,"text":"當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就質問說你覺得台灣我們的政府"},{"start":121.453,"end":132.846,"text":"對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?"},{"start":133.985,"end":134.586,"text":"同樣的我想問副主席"},{"start":154.156,"end":168.792,"text":"我覺得台灣有很多東西還要做我今天就特別針對的是科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方我想問副主委"},{"start":171.688,"end":187.096,"text":"我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?"},{"start":188.217,"end":191.32,"text":"我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天才在一個執政黨立法委員的角度"},{"start":208.286,"end":237.466,"text":"兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括"},{"start":238.291,"end":264.711,"text":"我們的財經部會應該要明確地反映這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情了我們如果沒有做好比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面"},{"start":266.872,"end":292.267,"text":"但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個"},{"start":292.947,"end":318.001,"text":"第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在"},{"start":321.058,"end":350.037,"text":"今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會"},{"start":351.799,"end":369.03,"text":"他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用"},{"start":370.657,"end":371.558,"text":"同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊"},{"start":396.755,"end":424.171,"text":"因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會"},{"start":425.091,"end":448.354,"text":"未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方"},{"start":449.321,"end":471.578,"text":"甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分"},{"start":474.194,"end":498.352,"text":"我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊"},{"start":498.852,"end":514.883,"text":"部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關"},{"start":515.843,"end":544.366,"text":"他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度"},{"start":545.387,"end":564.746,"text":"那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。"},{"start":566.828,"end":591.285,"text":"這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得"},{"start":593.166,"end":621.997,"text":"可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話"},{"start":622.857,"end":643.454,"text":"我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙"},{"start":645.236,"end":663.959,"text":"我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話"},{"start":664.84,"end":669.921,"text":"部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印"},{"start":684.105,"end":688.368,"text":"在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位"},{"start":706.801,"end":707.142,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":723.903,"end":727.324,"text":"部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人"},{"start":742.645,"end":769.522,"text":"這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧"},{"start":770.322,"end":795.271,"text":"是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時19分）謝謝主席，請林部長跟梁副主委。"],["主席：請林部長還有副主委。"],["洪委員申翰：兩位，不好意思，我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件有受傷的狀況，但我還是要請問，因為大家都講到美國大選的結果現在出來了，我們知道臺灣政府其實一直以來跟共和黨、民主黨的關係都很緊密，我想這個部分大家不會多作質疑。但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面，還是會有一些地方不同。剛才前面有幾位委員也都問到了，尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰，也包括在科技管制上面的作法，目前判斷起來是有可能會比拜登政府來得更趨強硬及嚴格。尤其是這段時間，我們的先進晶片流入到華為的事情，坦白說，很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常關切，先請問部長和副主委，你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方？請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：因為瓦聖納協定這個國際規範我們沒辦法參加，但我們是以這個作為基礎，可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範，美國也透過Fab 4所謂的4個主要的非紅供應鏈，就是美、臺、日、韓……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我就直問，你覺得臺灣政府對於這些科技和經濟安全的管制工作有沒有值得再強化和加強的地方？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們還有需要再加強的地方。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得哪些地方需要加強？"],["林部長佳龍：因為科技的發展日新月異，有關於整個半導體供應鏈的部分，因為中國是一個很多民主國家認定的戰略競爭者，所以對它的管制是比較嚴。"],["洪委員申翰：同樣的，我想問副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得臺灣有很多東西還要做。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天特別針對的是科技管制，尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制，兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方？我想問副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：譬如我舉個例子，現在我們通過的所謂關鍵技術管制，但是因為受限於種種因素，那些關鍵技術管制的範圍是不是足夠、是不是夠廣、是不是真正管到該管的，類似這樣，我覺得這些都是還有很多可以加強的地方。"],["洪委員申翰：我這邊想要跟兩位說，我今天踩在一個執政黨立法委員的角度，兩位都是我們整體國安團隊的成員，對於現在尤其是川普總統上臺以後，當國際上面對於科技管制，尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視，甚至要求越來越具體的時候，我確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的。我希望兩位也可以向整體的國安團隊，包括財金部會，應該要明確的反映，這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情，我們如果沒有做好，比方像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情，不管是在哪一個環節上面流到華為，這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任，我們都還不講這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面，但這會重傷對臺灣的信任。當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈、韌性的供應鏈、安全的供應鏈的時候，這對臺灣來說是相當不利的事情，尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候。我必須還是要表達，身為一個執政黨的委員非常關切這件事情，也希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他的國安團隊來傳達這件事情，這是第一個。","第二個我想請教，這幾天我們看到印度次長級官員來到臺灣，來談關於移工引進的MOU問題，部長，你應該也認識過去在臺印關係處理上面有一位陳牧民老師。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：陳牧民老師在今年6月的時候寫了一篇投書，我唸一下這篇投書的內容，他是這樣寫的，他說：印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益，直接接洽臺灣的各政府部門，甚至直接談判，由於臺灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項，但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制，這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會。他的意思很簡單，當印度政府很靈活的來跟臺灣各個部會自行溝通、談判的時候，他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了。所以也許我們可以利用印度政府希望我們引進印度移工的機會來提升臺印關係，成為提升臺印關係的籌碼時，這時候外交部掌控的籌碼就不夠了，請問部長，陳牧民老師的這個說法，你同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意，我也跟委員報告，確實，因為很多國家的外交部是負責包括對外的經貿談判，可是臺灣的情形，因為過去外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯，現在既然在行政院成立了經濟外交工作小組，我們會加強這方面跨部會的協調，特別是通報制度，所以行政院也已經通函各部會，未來外國駐臺的代表或者是大使，所有跟我們的交涉都是要通報，包括外交部在內，通報制度的建立是第一個，我們才能掌握資訊。第二個，不要被各個擊破，甚至有一些地方，我們發現……"],["洪委員申翰：就是陳牧民老師提醒的事情，"],["林部長佳龍：有些地方甚至是透過一些企業來繞過我們的政府部門，所以我們也要跟產業界溝通，因為如果沒有政府作為後盾，像這些不管是立法或相關的行政配合，這個是我們總和外交的一部分。我不要指特定國家，我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討好，除了在行政院層次的跨部會小組之外，外交部會跟各部會協作，通報制度的建立之外，未來的對外涉外事務，比如我們有外館，也有很多的部會有派員，我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，因為我時間有限，當然在這裡我相信部長有改善這件事情誠意，可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切，也希望外交部接下來對於綜整或是統籌各部會相關的談判或溝通協調，甚至各種利益上面的討論，都可以強化掌控的狀況，這部分還是要跟部長說。","最後，我想問部長，你知不知道我們有所謂南向政策理念？其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少，但是在印度內部，我覺得臺灣還有一群滿重要的盟友，他們和臺灣一樣信奉自由民主價值，也很瞭解印度，也有助於增進臺灣與印度的關係。部長，你知不知道這群盟友會是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：就是包括藏人，我想他們是很重要的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們在跟印度的交流裡面，其實我認為有非常非常重要的一群就是達賴喇嘛帶領的流亡藏人社群，這個社群在某個部分，他們跟中國之間，我不能講對抗，但是他們也是在面對中國的各種入侵跟侵害，這部分其實跟臺灣的利益是一樣的，都要抵禦中國的侵擾。但他們一樣在印度扎根了65年，所以他們對印度非常熟悉，包括印度的制度、語言、文化，他們都非常熟悉，我只是想問部長，你覺得可不可以將這群印度的流亡藏人社群納入臺灣南向政策裡面的重要夥伴？"],["林部長佳龍：我同意委員應該是要把他納入，尤其是在臺印關係當中，藏人可以作為一個很好的橋梁，隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加，我們也很需要人才。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，如果你在這邊說這些藏人社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴，那我覺得我們就要面對一件事情，坦白說，現在臺灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人相對不友善的地方，他們可能想要來臺灣交流或者來臺灣求學、來臺灣學中文，目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙。我的意思是很簡單，因為過去面對這些藏人社群，我們都把他們當作就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人，我們之前一直會這樣認定，但如果今天如部長說的，我們把他視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話，那可能就可以有一些特別的政策，不只是把他們視為無國籍的人這樣子對待的可能性，部長你覺得我們有沒有可能朝這個方向，真的把他們當作是臺灣在臺印關係裡面，甚至是南向政策裡面的重要夥伴？那我們就要處理他們相對應的這些權利的問題，部長，你覺得？"],["林部長佳龍：在政策方向上，我是支持委員剛剛的主張，在具體作法我就請包括外交部跟跨部會，我們來進行一些檢討，最近也因為……我覺得政策的定位來做法令的檢討跟必要的修改，就是說以鬆綁的方向，但是循序地來進行，我想不管是流亡印度的藏人，或者是他們可以作為……我想本身跟臺灣的關係以外，就是可以跟印度做一個很好的橋梁。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的，你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴，不是只是一般的無國籍的人，這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情，在這個認定跟認知上面，我們才有再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間，所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴，我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部，甚至這個……來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們的權益上面可以做更多，真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴，部長應該同意吧？"],["林部長佳龍：是，就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛！我們就是做政策性的檢討，必要的時候修改法令，在法令的解釋範圍內，我們可以鬆綁，我是說政策的方向如果定了，就是這些行政措施怎麼樣能夠來對應，我想委員關心的是在行政面也是要有一些配合啦！"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，所以我們接下來會跟外交部討論，也希望部長可以全力支持，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。","接下來，我們請楊瓊瓔委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}}