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{\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 488.157, \"end\": 488.317, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 488.317, \"end\": 488.337, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,716 --> 00:00:03,283\n謝謝主席林部長有請請林部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,525 --> 00:00:30,118\n部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他\n\n3\n00:00:38,404 --> 00:00:40,186\n如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?\n\n4\n00:00:47,742 --> 00:00:47,882\n他的特質喔\n\n5\n00:01:14,184 --> 00:01:37,046\n當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁\n\n6\n00:01:37,927 --> 00:01:56,304\n普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法\n\n7\n00:02:00,981 --> 00:02:20,702\n他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的\n\n8\n00:02:21,863 --> 00:02:44,381\n就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個\n\n9\n00:02:46,142 --> 00:02:46,403\n堅若磐石\n\n10\n00:03:11,850 --> 00:03:32,803\n對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?\n\n11\n00:03:34,202 --> 00:03:34,362\n川普會不會?\n\n12\n00:03:49,080 --> 00:04:04,720\n因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:06,482 --> 00:04:24,503\n我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長\n\n14\n00:04:26,553 --> 00:04:53,409\n就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟\n\n15\n00:04:55,135 --> 00:04:57,136\n其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣\n\n16\n00:05:21,101 --> 00:05:22,342\n我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。\n\n17\n00:05:45,204 --> 00:06:03,019\n不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性\n\n18\n00:06:03,479 --> 00:06:17,852\n我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒\n\n19\n00:06:18,553 --> 00:06:34,108\n我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣\n\n20\n00:06:35,048 --> 00:07:01,804\n我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜\n\n21\n00:07:02,825 --> 00:07:18,572\n我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!\n\n22\n00:07:19,966 --> 00:07:35,979\n我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰\n\n23\n00:07:37,841 --> 00:08:05,316\n到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了\n\n24\n00:08:07,677 --> 00:08:08,337\n我們會更加努力,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n716\t3283\t謝謝主席 林部長有請請林部長\n11525\t30118\t部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他\n38404\t40186\t如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?\n47742\t47882\t他的特質喔\n74184\t97046\t當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁\n97927\t116304\t普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法\n120981\t140702\t他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的\n141863\t164381\t就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個\n166142\t166403\t堅若磐石\n191850\t212803\t對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?\n214202\t214362\t川普會不會?\n229080\t244720\t因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?\n246482\t264503\t我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長\n266553\t293409\t就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有 我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟\n295135\t297136\t其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣\n321101\t322342\t我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。\n345204\t363019\t不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性\n363479\t377852\t我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒\n378553\t394108\t我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣\n395048\t421804\t我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜\n422825\t438572\t我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!\n439966\t455979\t我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰\n457841\t485316\t到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了\n487677\t488337\t我們會更加努力,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 林部長有請請林部長\n部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他\n如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?\n他的特質喔\n當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁\n普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法\n他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的\n就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個\n堅若磐石\n對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?\n川普會不會?\n因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?\n我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長\n就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有 我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟\n其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣\n我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。\n不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性\n我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒\n我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣\n我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜\n我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!\n我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰\n到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了\n我們會更加努力,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.716 --> 00:03.283\n謝謝主席林部長有請請林部長\n\n00:11.525 --> 00:30.118\n部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他\n\n00:38.404 --> 00:40.186\n如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?\n\n00:47.742 --> 00:47.882\n他的特質喔\n\n01:14.184 --> 01:37.046\n當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁\n\n01:37.927 --> 01:56.304\n普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法\n\n02:00.981 --> 02:20.702\n他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的\n\n02:21.863 --> 02:44.381\n就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個\n\n02:46.142 --> 02:46.403\n堅若磐石\n\n03:11.850 --> 03:32.803\n對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?\n\n03:34.202 --> 03:34.362\n川普會不會?\n\n03:49.080 --> 04:04.720\n因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?\n\n04:06.482 --> 04:24.503\n我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長\n\n04:26.553 --> 04:53.409\n就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟\n\n04:55.135 --> 04:57.136\n其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣\n\n05:21.101 --> 05:22.342\n我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。\n\n05:45.204 --> 06:03.019\n不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性\n\n06:03.479 --> 06:17.852\n我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒\n\n06:18.553 --> 06:34.108\n我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣\n\n06:35.048 --> 07:01.804\n我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜\n\n07:02.825 --> 07:18.572\n我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!\n\n07:19.966 --> 07:35.979\n我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰\n\n07:37.841 --> 08:05.316\n到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了\n\n08:07.677 --> 08:08.337\n我們會更加努力,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.716,"end":3.283,"text":"謝謝主席 林部長有請請林部長"},{"start":11.525,"end":30.118,"text":"部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他"},{"start":38.404,"end":40.186,"text":"如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?"},{"start":47.742,"end":47.882,"text":"他的特質喔"},{"start":74.184,"end":97.046,"text":"當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁"},{"start":97.927,"end":116.304,"text":"普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法"},{"start":120.981,"end":140.702,"text":"他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的"},{"start":141.863,"end":164.381,"text":"就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個"},{"start":166.142,"end":166.403,"text":"堅若磐石"},{"start":191.85,"end":212.803,"text":"對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?"},{"start":214.202,"end":214.362,"text":"川普會不會?"},{"start":229.08,"end":244.72,"text":"因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?"},{"start":246.482,"end":264.503,"text":"我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長"},{"start":266.553,"end":293.409,"text":"就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有 我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟"},{"start":295.135,"end":297.136,"text":"其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣"},{"start":321.101,"end":322.342,"text":"我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。"},{"start":345.204,"end":363.019,"text":"不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性"},{"start":363.479,"end":377.852,"text":"我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒"},{"start":378.553,"end":394.108,"text":"我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣"},{"start":395.048,"end":421.804,"text":"我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜"},{"start":422.825,"end":438.572,"text":"我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!"},{"start":439.966,"end":455.979,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰"},{"start":457.841,"end":485.316,"text":"到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了"},{"start":487.677,"end":488.337,"text":"我們會更加努力,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時22分）謝謝主席，林部長有請。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們就話不多說，直接進入主題。川普在2016年當選的時候，有川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話，當初被解讀成是巨大的外交突破，那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎？會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：川普他怎麼決定……你知道他有他自己的決定嘛！我們沒有辦法去替他決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有辦法替他決定，好，如果沒有通話，算不算外交倒退？"],["林部長佳龍：當然不算。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，今天我們不在這裡做政治的攻防，因為不管有打電話或沒打電話，我們都應該處變不驚，這個才是外交的態度。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實部長剛剛的答詢已經透露一件事情，基本上也應該是全世界各地國際關係的專家學者共同認知的一件事，部長，川普的特質是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：關於他的特質，當然有一些人說他有所謂交易式的領導風格。"],["牛委員煦庭：交易式的領導風格？"],["林部長佳龍：對，他喜歡贏啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：想要贏。"],["林部長佳龍：我想在過去4年他執政的時候，我們的相處可以說是奠定現在臺美關係的基礎。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["林部長佳龍：這個我在我的報告裡面有提到，其實……"],["牛委員煦庭：對你的報告，我等一下再跟你算清楚。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：普遍來說，不管是國際關係的學者專家也好，或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員，他們共同對川普的憂慮也好，或者是客觀的分析也好，就是這個人有高度的unpredictable，就是不可預測性，部長，這個你總知道吧？還是你反對這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：看你怎麼看，其實……"],["牛委員煦庭：你贊不贊成川普有高度的不可預測性這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：我是在一個範圍內，但是你如果擴大來看，他也有可預測性。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看！你從剛剛一開始的答詢到現在，你就自己打臉了！我剛剛為什麼跟你講不會計較川普跟賴清德總統有沒有通話？就是因為大家都知道……"],["林部長佳龍：他是談判的作法有一些你不可預測，但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性，所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破；如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話，我也不會認為是外交倒退。你要處變不驚的原因，就是因為你要瞭解他本身具有高度的不可預測性。今天我看外交部的報告通篇在維穩，表示沒事、沒事，一切都會照常舉行、一切都會堅若磐石。當然從政治的角度解釋，本席是可以諒解你這樣寫，但這樣寫是外交真正的狀況嗎？","我舉個例子，包含稍早陸委會主委報告的時候、前面你在答詢時都有講，美國一樣會領導全世界的民主聯盟遏止威權集團擴張。你們剛剛答詢都有講了這樣的話，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我就舉具體的例子問，烏俄戰爭，拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府、帶領美國、領導民主集團，他們對烏克蘭有沒有軍援？有，對不對？賣武器等等提供各式各樣的協助，有沒有？有吧？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？他們有沒有聯合世界上各個民主國家的集團和聯盟制裁俄羅斯？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？好。他們有沒有積極在阻止威權集團的擴張，在拜登政府執政和領導的時代，有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？川普會不會？"],["林部長佳龍：他也會啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：他也會嗎？部長……"],["林部長佳龍：因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者耶！只是作風不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我在跟你講俄羅斯，你跟我講中國幹嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：俄羅斯也是一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我不知道你有沒有注意到，澤倫斯基昨天在Twitter上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文，你知道下面的留言長什麼樣子嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有去看留言，我有看到媒體報導他的恭賀……"],["牛委員煦庭：川粉大幅洗版，大家在下面寫：你趕快投降喔！你早就應該跟普丁談判了，你就不要負隅頑抗了，美國人不會再給你錢啦！都是川普的支持者。那請問川普上臺跟拜登會一樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：就對俄烏戰爭的作法，他有不一樣，他也講過，我想這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講這些路線會一樣？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我在不同的層次……"],["牛委員煦庭：邏輯跳來跳去，我不是很瞭解。"],["林部長佳龍：他的作風不太一樣，不代表他……其實他對於……今天講到包括所謂的中或俄，其實他有他的一套，那一套跟現在的拜登總統不一樣，但是不代表他維護美國國家利益以及希望去遏制威權擴張，他是有不一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：他會維護美國的國家利益，這個大家都很清楚。你剛剛講有限的可預測性裡面，大概唯一大家可以公認、可預測的，就是他一定會以美國的利益為優先。但這件事情回到臺灣外交發展的角度來講，我希望今天……"],["林部長佳龍：其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先，只是作風不太一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天的報告主題是對於國際局勢發展之影響，外交部對未來的變局，應該要做充分準備，但我在這個報告裡面通篇沒有看到針對川普不可預測性的這件事情，臺灣有任何的因應措施，你甚至完全沒有提到這一件事，我覺得這這份報告非常不專業！"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得我們應該要沉著，然後因應這個情勢，我們做好準備，不是一次就把我們所有的作法拋出來，因為這還在發展中，他還要組織政府、還要提出很多政策。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛在答詢過程中也非常清楚，從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面，其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性。我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告，明明知道他是個不確定性的、有不可預測性的風險，但在這裡面隻字未提、通篇維穩！不要用中央廚房式的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題，這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員分享……"],["牛委員煦庭：外交部也好，陸委會也好，你未來的挑戰……"],["林部長佳龍：國際政治有它的的結構面，也不是個人風格，他有一些特色和談判的技巧，但不代表他的一些結構性的，就是對於現在的美國外交政策會做改變，以及對臺灣的政策會有一些不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛講一個政策，你剛剛講不會改變，我舉了烏俄戰爭的例子……"],["林部長佳龍：我在談的是不同層次，我說結構性的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有辦法回答。"],["林部長佳龍：我認為沒有改變，但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿，而我們今天談的是國防、外交，我們在這個委員會，所以今天沒有多談，但他有可能會改變，是大家都公認的一個事實。面對這樣子的變局……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員分享，比如……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你先聽我講完。面對這樣子的變局，不管是外交部也好，或者陸委會也好，你的工作負擔都會增加，因為局面複雜。"],["林部長佳龍：這個同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要你在面對這樣的問題呈現時，如實跟人民報告這樣的挑戰，而不是明明可能有變數，你要矇著眼睛講一切都如常……"],["林部長佳龍：不會、不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個態度是不正確的。"],["林部長佳龍：有不一樣，變與不變。"],["牛委員煦庭：也悖離了外交專業，未來還有很多……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，臺美關係的突破，其實這8年來，大部分都是在川普總統的那前4年，包括對臺很多架構性的安排……"],["牛委員煦庭：我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭，是不是沒有？所以當初大家都有一個……"],["林部長佳龍：可是你看，比如美中貿易戰，現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片、去紅供應鏈……"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛不是跟你講，我們現在是在外交及國防委員會，今天我如果要問貿易戰，我會去經濟委員會問政，對不對？你今天也不是經濟部部長。"],["林部長佳龍：其實經濟、外交……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在要你就是處理好未來的變局，我希望我們的政府要有這樣子的心理準備。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能明明有，但你不敢寫、你不敢講。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有錯……"],["牛委員煦庭：不用不敢講。"],["林部長佳龍：委員說的對，有些我們的準備……"],["牛委員煦庭：他有不可預測性，大家面對這個問題就好了，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：不能現在還沒發生就在講，要做好準備。"],["牛委員煦庭：做好準備，好，未來有很多變數、很多挑戰，希望不要再用中央廚房的方式，不要再用一切穩定、用維穩的方式，這沒有意義！坦誠面對問題，這樣才是正確的態度，好不好？希望部長……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：接下來還有很多機會討論，希望部長加油，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會更加努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，部長請回。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來我們請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}}