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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 763.708, \"end\": 764.008, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 764.008, \"end\": 764.228, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 764.228, \"end\": 764.368, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 764.368, \"end\": 764.969, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 764.969, \"end\": 765.049, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 765.049, \"end\": 765.149, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 765.149, \"end\": 765.449, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"釐\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 765.449, \"end\": 765.669, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 765.669, \"end\": 766.27, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 766.27, \"end\": 766.51, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 766.51, \"end\": 766.73, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"侯\", \"start\": 766.73, \"end\": 766.911, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"孟\", \"start\": 766.911, \"end\": 767.131, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"楷\", \"start\": 767.131, \"end\": 767.271, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 767.271, \"end\": 767.491, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 767.491, \"end\": 767.631, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 767.631, \"end\": 767.791, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 767.791, \"end\": 767.971, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 767.971, \"end\": 767.991, \"score\": 0.031}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:11,579\n委員質詢。主席,謝謝。麻煩請廖院長。好,有請院長。\n\n2\n00:00:16,732 --> 00:00:35,577\n院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,\n\n3\n00:00:39,898 --> 00:01:04,227\n他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響\n\n4\n00:01:05,525 --> 00:01:28,686\n我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個近離的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在\n\n5\n00:01:30,027 --> 00:01:31,588\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n\n6\n00:01:50,263 --> 00:02:15,493\n甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看\n\n7\n00:02:16,465 --> 00:02:38,621\n我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好\n\n8\n00:02:39,421 --> 00:02:58,243\n現在國內我們在上個兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除\n\n9\n00:03:00,105 --> 00:03:26,840\n直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。\n\n10\n00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:45,936\n而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開\n\n11\n00:03:47,179 --> 00:04:16,276\n那您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電嘛那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳啊\n\n12\n00:04:16,598 --> 00:04:40,766\n好,讓我解釋一下是,請說這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法\n\n13\n00:05:09,620 --> 00:05:25,771\n院長突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策會員會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的\n\n14\n00:05:27,752 --> 00:05:46,258\n兩邊講是說你花大錢省小錢你明明一直在所謂的一個火力發電全開來一直排汰然後結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好公研院也好來大家來節電指標妄想從公部門擠出一點電沒有釜底抽薪啊治標不治本啊\n\n15\n00:05:47,554 --> 00:06:02,234\n那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少\n\n16\n00:06:06,015 --> 00:06:24,146\n我們是沒有收到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦\n\n17\n00:06:31,077 --> 00:06:57,640\n總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊\n\n18\n00:06:58,902 --> 00:07:22,236\n會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人\n\n19\n00:07:25,390 --> 00:07:46,418\n通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇\n\n20\n00:07:47,378 --> 00:08:05,205\n二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。\n\n21\n00:08:08,467 --> 00:08:35,745\n您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題\n\n22\n00:08:36,886 --> 00:08:39,550\n今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位\n\n23\n00:08:41,718 --> 00:09:10,092\n那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位\n\n24\n00:09:11,132 --> 00:09:18,119\n請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位\n\n25\n00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:46,169\n連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面\n\n26\n00:09:46,969 --> 00:10:12,567\n你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準\n\n27\n00:10:13,372 --> 00:10:41,332\n我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊\n\n28\n00:10:42,177 --> 00:10:59,160\n我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到\n\n29\n00:10:59,881 --> 00:11:23,835\n那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣\n\n30\n00:11:24,355 --> 00:11:41,372\n不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。\n\n31\n00:11:42,272 --> 00:12:06,030\n到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化\n\n32\n00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:09,193\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n\n33\n00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:47,991\n人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t11579\t委員質詢。主席,謝謝。麻煩請廖院長。好,有請院長。\n16732\t35577\t院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,\n39898\t64227\t他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響\n65525\t88686\t我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個近離的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在\n90027\t91588\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n110263\t135493\t甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看\n136465\t158621\t我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好\n159421\t178243\t現在國內我們在上個兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除\n180105\t206840\t直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。\n207600\t225936\t而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開\n227179\t256276\t那您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電嘛那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳啊\n256598\t280766\t好,讓我解釋一下是,請說這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法\n281186\t308729\t獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n309620\t325771\t院長突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策會員會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的\n327752\t346258\t兩邊講是說你花大錢省小錢你明明一直在所謂的一個火力發電全開來一直排汰然後結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好公研院也好來大家來節電指標妄想從公部門擠出一點電沒有釜底抽薪啊治標不治本啊\n347554\t362234\t那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少\n366015\t384146\t我們是沒有收到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯 院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦\n391077\t417640\t總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊\n418902\t442236\t會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人\n445390\t466418\t通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇\n467378\t485205\t二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。\n488467\t515745\t您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題\n516886\t519550\t今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位\n521718\t550092\t那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位\n551132\t558119\t請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位\n559580\t586169\t連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好 院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面\n586969\t612567\t你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準\n613372\t641332\t我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊\n642177\t659160\t我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到\n659881\t683835\t那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣\n684355\t701372\t不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。\n702272\t726030\t到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化\n726630\t729193\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n743730\t767991\t人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝\n","txt":"委員質詢。主席,謝謝。麻煩請廖院長。好,有請院長。\n院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,\n他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響\n我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個近離的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看\n我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好\n現在國內我們在上個兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除\n直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。\n而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開\n那您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電嘛那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳啊\n好,讓我解釋一下是,請說這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法\n獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n院長突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策會員會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的\n兩邊講是說你花大錢省小錢你明明一直在所謂的一個火力發電全開來一直排汰然後結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好公研院也好來大家來節電指標妄想從公部門擠出一點電沒有釜底抽薪啊治標不治本啊\n那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少\n我們是沒有收到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯 院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦\n總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊\n會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人\n通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇\n二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。\n您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題\n今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位\n那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位\n請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位\n連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好 院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面\n你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準\n我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊\n我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到\n那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣\n不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。\n到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:11.579\n委員質詢。主席,謝謝。麻煩請廖院長。好,有請院長。\n\n00:16.732 --> 00:35.577\n院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,\n\n00:39.898 --> 01:04.227\n他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響\n\n01:05.525 --> 01:28.686\n我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個近離的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在\n\n01:30.027 --> 01:31.588\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n\n01:50.263 --> 02:15.493\n甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看\n\n02:16.465 --> 02:38.621\n我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好\n\n02:39.421 --> 02:58.243\n現在國內我們在上個兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除\n\n03:00.105 --> 03:26.840\n直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。\n\n03:27.600 --> 03:45.936\n而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開\n\n03:47.179 --> 04:16.276\n那您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電嘛那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳啊\n\n04:16.598 --> 04:40.766\n好,讓我解釋一下是,請說這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法\n\n05:09.620 --> 05:25.771\n院長突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策會員會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的\n\n05:27.752 --> 05:46.258\n兩邊講是說你花大錢省小錢你明明一直在所謂的一個火力發電全開來一直排汰然後結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好公研院也好來大家來節電指標妄想從公部門擠出一點電沒有釜底抽薪啊治標不治本啊\n\n05:47.554 --> 06:02.234\n那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少\n\n06:06.015 --> 06:24.146\n我們是沒有收到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦\n\n06:31.077 --> 06:57.640\n總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊\n\n06:58.902 --> 07:22.236\n會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人\n\n07:25.390 --> 07:46.418\n通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇\n\n07:47.378 --> 08:05.205\n二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。\n\n08:08.467 --> 08:35.745\n您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題\n\n08:36.886 --> 08:39.550\n今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位\n\n08:41.718 --> 09:10.092\n那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位\n\n09:11.132 --> 09:18.119\n請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位\n\n09:19.580 --> 09:46.169\n連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面\n\n09:46.969 --> 10:12.567\n你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準\n\n10:13.372 --> 10:41.332\n我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊\n\n10:42.177 --> 10:59.160\n我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到\n\n10:59.881 --> 11:23.835\n那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣\n\n11:24.355 --> 11:41.372\n不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。\n\n11:42.272 --> 12:06.030\n到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化\n\n12:06.630 --> 12:09.193\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n\n12:23.730 --> 12:47.991\n人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":11.579,"text":"委員質詢。主席,謝謝。麻煩請廖院長。好,有請院長。"},{"start":16.732,"end":35.577,"text":"院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,"},{"start":39.898,"end":64.227,"text":"他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":65.525,"end":88.686,"text":"我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個近離的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在"},{"start":90.027,"end":91.588,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":110.263,"end":135.493,"text":"甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看"},{"start":136.465,"end":158.621,"text":"我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好"},{"start":159.421,"end":178.243,"text":"現在國內我們在上個兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除"},{"start":180.105,"end":206.84,"text":"直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。"},{"start":207.6,"end":225.936,"text":"而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開"},{"start":227.179,"end":256.276,"text":"那您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電嘛那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳啊"},{"start":256.598,"end":280.766,"text":"好,讓我解釋一下是,請說這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法"},{"start":281.186,"end":308.729,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":309.62,"end":325.771,"text":"院長突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策會員會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的"},{"start":327.752,"end":346.258,"text":"兩邊講是說你花大錢省小錢你明明一直在所謂的一個火力發電全開來一直排汰然後結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好公研院也好來大家來節電指標妄想從公部門擠出一點電沒有釜底抽薪啊治標不治本啊"},{"start":347.554,"end":362.234,"text":"那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少"},{"start":366.015,"end":384.146,"text":"我們是沒有收到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯 院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦"},{"start":391.077,"end":417.64,"text":"總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊"},{"start":418.902,"end":442.236,"text":"會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人"},{"start":445.39,"end":466.418,"text":"通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇"},{"start":467.378,"end":485.205,"text":"二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。"},{"start":488.467,"end":515.745,"text":"您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題"},{"start":516.886,"end":519.55,"text":"今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位"},{"start":521.718,"end":550.092,"text":"那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位"},{"start":551.132,"end":558.119,"text":"請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位"},{"start":559.58,"end":586.169,"text":"連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好 院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面"},{"start":586.969,"end":612.567,"text":"你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準"},{"start":613.372,"end":641.332,"text":"我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊"},{"start":642.177,"end":659.16,"text":"我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到"},{"start":659.881,"end":683.835,"text":"那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣"},{"start":684.355,"end":701.372,"text":"不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。"},{"start":702.272,"end":726.03,"text":"到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化"},{"start":726.63,"end":729.193,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":743.73,"end":767.991,"text":"人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":83,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時20分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請廖院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，這個會期是第一次見到你。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣最強大腦都在這邊，非常好！"],["廖院長俊智：不敢當，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們還是就教相對專業的問題，因為我認為中研院就是本於科學、本於專業去做一些判斷。最近國際很關心，剛剛當選的美國總統川普在競選期間可能都有一直強調所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題，他有他自己的獨特見解，包括明年1月就任之後，他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定。院長，現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及相關的方向，你認為川普的上任對於全球的淨零碳排政策有什麼樣的影響？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這是全世界非常關注的問題，假如依川普所言，他要再度退出巴黎協定的話，確實會對2050年的淨零目標有一些衝擊，國際上也必須為這樣的狀況做出相對的反應，這是全世界所有學研界，包括政治界人物都非常關心的，而且希望在短期內能夠有所結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為不可諱言的，美國是老大哥。"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你說在政治、經濟、工業相關方面，美國都還是有執牛耳的地位。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果美國總統要退出巴黎氣候協定的話，有沒有可能連帶的讓臺灣的能源政策也會受到一些波及？尤其是美國曾經在10月15日又講到，其實他們針對淨零碳排有滿多的努力，包括他們要重啟關閉的核電廠，因為要因應電力需求快速成長，並且減少碳排放。院長，你自己怎麼看？"],["廖院長俊智：我覺得這是美國多方面想解決淨零碳排的問題，但是以川普的角度，他又不希望影響美國的經濟，他們所做的努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以經濟也好，或者是碳排的能源提供也好，其實都是人類需求要尋求的一個平衡點，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在國內，我們在兩個禮拜前也有看到，就像中火的事件，中火二期的環評案，民進黨過去承諾說要關一個燃煤廠、增加一個燃氣廠，但是現在增加燃氣廠，可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除，直到卓榮泰院長現在才承諾，2032年等4部燃氣廠機組完成之後，才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。某種程度上，燃煤也好，燃氣也好，其實都是火力發電。院長，我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場，而是都是需求，因為大家都要用電，現在核三廠2號機歲修的情況，其實全臺已經實質進入非核家園，而看到數據來講，日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上，因為我們現在再生能源還沒有20%，而如果到夜晚期間，太陽能沒有發電、風力又減弱的時候，更是高達九成，甚至九成五都是火力發電、火力全開。之前2022年中研院也有提供相關淨零碳排的資料，我們說全臺的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門，也就是所謂的火力發電，這樣臺灣不就是在走世界潮流的倒退路嗎？我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠達到淨零碳排？2050越來越近，每過一天，就離2050更近一天，我們希望淨零碳排，但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳。"],["廖院長俊智：容我解釋一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，請說。"],["廖院長俊智：有關火力發電，燃煤、燃氣雖然都排碳，可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出約兩倍，所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力、努力的一個目標，就像我們在大海中航行，沒有辦法走點到點最短的距離，還要看路徑當中有沒有颱風、有沒有其他危險的物質、有沒有避開別人的經濟領域或是人家的領土，所以並不是簡單的點到點的直線距離，是這樣的概念，雖然大家的方向都是要在2050年達成淨零，可是燃煤的排碳遠比燃氣的排碳多很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你突然搖身一變，變成航海專家了。"],["廖院長俊智：倒不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席以為我們在討論的是能源政策。院長，本席好奇地請教，就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策委員會，並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們講你花大錢省小錢，明明是火力發電全開來一直排碳，結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好、工研院也好，來，大家來節電指標，妄想從公部門擠出一點電，沒有釜底抽薪，那是治標不治本啊！我想請教，距離第二次氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了，中研院有收到指示明年的KPI、還是明年的指標，到底中研院具體是要節電多少？有沒有？"],["廖院長俊智：我們是沒有收到具體的指標，不過我們已經主動在做2、3年了，我們每年都有節電比賽，而且我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，院長講到重點了！節電是大家過去5年、10年都一直宣傳的隨手關燈、隨手關電，根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的臺灣最強大腦，總統根本不需要做這件事情，你已經承認了，過去2、3年大家都在做，為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事，總統主持、所有部會首長一字排開，到最後得出的結論，不是減少火力發電、不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗排碳來源，而是大家再節點電、隨手關燈，不要浪費能源，會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情，沒有對症下藥？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這應該是先從全民意志開始，漸漸地就會觸及到委員剛剛講的一些問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您覺得過去到現在，我們還沒有全民意志，大家都還不知道節電的重要性？"],["廖院長俊智：倒不是，而是還有加強的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我這樣質詢其實凸顯了什麼？我想您是聰明人，凸顯用科學方法，做實驗也好，或是任何方式，你沒有看到問題，不去解決問題、面對問題，你只想著旁生枝節，我沒有說這兩個是衝突的，減碳、不要火力發電、減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突，就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇，而核能絕對不是取代再生能源，核能是要取代火力發電，讓排碳大的降低一點，再生能源持續成長，所以發展核能也好，或是美國現在重啟核能，跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的，核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電，是吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，那這些……"],["洪委員孟楷：您是院長，我期待的最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷。"],["廖院長俊智：是的，沒錯，這個我們都在想。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷，只是死抱政治意識形態的話，我覺得臺灣會很危險。院長，您認為呢？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告，這些都在委員會裡面開始陸續討論，也分了7組，現在分組開始討論這些重大的議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，因為我時間有限，我再提另外一個問題。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天我看到的我們的院士，到目前為止有298位，研究員的部分，就我的資料是1,015位，但是其中研究人員，從過去到現在大家一直強調研究人員好像沒有法制化，會讓大家覺得不夠透明，為什麼這樣講呢？因為研究員有分副研究員、研究員、特聘研究員，請教到目前為止，在1,015位研究人員裡面，特聘研究員的人數有幾位？"],["廖院長俊智：請人事主任回答。"],["周主任佩芳：特聘研究員有九十幾位。"],["洪委員孟楷：九十幾位是幾位？連主任來都沒有辦法精確地回答。"],["周主任佩芳：目前是99位。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席為什麼突然問這個問題？過去立法院在105年、106年都有曾經關心過，當然對人才而言，要馬兒好，一定要讓馬兒吃草，這個我完全同意，我們一定要尊重人才招聘，我們也希望給更好的待遇，但是你們在給我們的人事費用裡面，你只有人事維持人事費，總共一大筆，即27億、28億的經費，連同另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億，光中研院一年一百多億的預算，有一半都是用在人才相關，我覺得用在人才相關沒有問題，但重點在於人才的給予有沒有一致、公平性、法制化以及標準。"],["廖院長俊智：我們院裡面的升等考核都有非常完整的制度，在各級都有很嚴格地審查，我們已經行之有年了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！但是到目前為止，因為之前有一些比較眾所矚目的人才，變成是我們的特聘研究員時，大家就會懷疑他的月薪是不是一個月50萬、60萬等等，外界就會好奇啊！"],["廖院長俊智：我們院裡面所有的升等考核，誠如我剛才講的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，就是每一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！本席現在在講的就是99位的特聘研究員裡面，待遇有高有低，而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到，這樣子會不會就讓外界覺得不透明？這不是我第一次講，我相信之前105年、106年就已經有委員在教育及文化委員會裡面有提相關提案，認為是應該要透明化、法制化，有一定的標準。"],["廖院長俊智：誠如剛才委員講的，人才我們要跟國際競爭，國際上高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣，不可能所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我的意思是還是要有標準啊！否則的話，我們怎麼能夠認定你今天到底……你看剛剛99位的特聘研究員裡面，你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣，到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的薪資，特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資？你的標準還是沒有啊？"],["廖院長俊智：有，我們有標準。"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是過去讓外界仍持續覺得沒有透明的主要原因。院長，過去有提過希望能夠法制化……"],["主席：院長，是不是後續將書面資料，或者是當面再跟洪委員說明，好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們事後再跟委員說明。"],["主席：因為已經超過時間了。"],["洪委員孟楷：這有沒有可能法制化？"],["廖院長俊智：事實上，我們本來已經是法制化了。"],["洪委員孟楷：只是沒有辦法對外說，是不是？"],["廖院長俊智：不是、不是，這個本來都是我們的法規，特聘研究員的法規叫什麼？"],["周主任佩芳：研究人員的專業加給是依人總的專業加給表九的規定辦理。"],["主席：因為已經超過時間了，後續再給洪孟楷委員書面或是口頭報告，好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，OK。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，相關的資料可以給本席，我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資，我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法制化的部分，以及讓外界覺得你一筆28億的人事費用，一千多人，到底他的薪資待遇是怎麼樣，這一定要釐清，好不好？謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，院長請回。目前現場有3位委員，我們確定一下上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","現在請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}}