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\"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 753.088, \"end\": 753.208, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 753.208, \"end\": 753.388, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 753.388, \"end\": 753.689, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 753.689, \"end\": 753.949, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 753.949, \"end\": 753.969, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:17,043\n代主席。謝謝主席。那有請院長。請廖院長。\n\n2\n00:00:22,001 --> 00:00:44,743\n院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範\n\n3\n00:00:46,204 --> 00:00:48,449\n可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?\n\n4\n00:00:55,151 --> 00:01:19,385\n我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百。但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。\n\n5\n00:01:20,405 --> 00:01:40,189\n按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來\n\n6\n00:01:40,529 --> 00:01:54,323\n所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準?對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎?\n\n7\n00:01:55,885 --> 00:01:57,046\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關\n\n8\n00:02:13,277 --> 00:02:18,463\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關\n\n9\n00:02:31,798 --> 00:02:38,200\n院士會議自己的運作程序的運作那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦我想我們有不同的意見沒關係就可以來處理那院長應該有記得其實不是只有今年3月那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢然後2023年用預算追蹤那今年3月我一直在問說\n\n10\n00:02:56,405 --> 00:03:15,288\n其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的codeofconduct\n\n11\n00:03:31,926 --> 00:03:34,189\nbicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士\n\n12\n00:03:49,850 --> 00:04:18,721\n跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。\n\n13\n00:04:22,323 --> 00:04:37,416\n第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任\n\n14\n00:04:38,677 --> 00:04:40,838\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11\n\n15\n00:05:09,359 --> 00:05:09,520\n院長覺得\n\n16\n00:05:10,868 --> 00:05:38,586\n跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的\n\n17\n00:05:39,086 --> 00:05:46,288\n而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。\n\n18\n00:06:02,791 --> 00:06:21,724\n因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權\n\n19\n00:06:22,885 --> 00:06:48,342\n還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱\n\n20\n00:06:50,763 --> 00:07:16,261\n我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突\n\n21\n00:07:17,182 --> 00:07:38,767\n比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為\n\n22\n00:07:44,628 --> 00:08:02,309\n但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位\n\n23\n00:08:02,910 --> 00:08:03,951\nbicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:21,513 --> 00:08:46,905\n我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責\n\n25\n00:08:47,645 --> 00:08:55,878\n在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?\n\n26\n00:08:57,304 --> 00:09:01,085\n不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說\n\n27\n00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:36,235\n院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是\n\n28\n00:09:51,561 --> 00:10:14,775\n中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理\n\n29\n00:10:16,736 --> 00:10:18,098\n則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。\n\n30\n00:10:32,697 --> 00:10:57,667\n相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒\n\n31\n00:10:58,507 --> 00:11:23,024\n這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:25,566 --> 00:11:34,893\n一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算\n\n33\n00:11:40,037 --> 00:11:57,396\n眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概\n\n34\n00:12:00,299 --> 00:12:26,021\n做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎\n\n35\n00:12:26,661 --> 00:12:33,969\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t17043\t代主席。謝謝主席。那有請院長。請廖院長。\n22001\t44743\t院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範\n46204\t48449\t可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?\n55151\t79385\t我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百。但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。\n80405\t100189\t按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來\n100529\t114323\t所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準?對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎?\n115885\t117046\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關\n133277\t138463\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關\n151798\t158200\t院士會議自己的運作程序的運作那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦我想我們有不同的意見沒關係就可以來處理那院長應該有記得其實不是只有今年3月那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢然後2023年用預算追蹤那今年3月我一直在問說\n176405\t195288\t其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的code of conduct\n196169\t211766\t議員議員議員議員\n211926\t214189\tbicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士\n229850\t258721\t跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。\n262323\t277416\t第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任\n278677\t280838\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11\n309359\t309520\t院長覺得\n310868\t338586\t跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的\n339086\t346288\t而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。\n362791\t381724\t因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權\n382885\t408342\t還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱\n410763\t436261\t我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突\n437182\t458767\t比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為\n464628\t482309\t但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位\n482910\t483951\tbicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?\n501513\t526905\t我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責\n527645\t535878\t在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?\n537304\t541085\t不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說\n563550\t576235\t院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是\n591561\t614775\t中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理\n616736\t618098\t則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。\n632697\t657667\t相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒\n658507\t683024\t這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?\n685566\t694893\t一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算\n700037\t717396\t眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概\n720299\t746021\t做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎\n746661\t753969\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。\n","txt":"代主席。謝謝主席。那有請院長。請廖院長。\n院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範\n可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?\n我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百。但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。\n按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來\n所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準?對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎?\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關\n院士會議自己的運作程序的運作那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦我想我們有不同的意見沒關係就可以來處理那院長應該有記得其實不是只有今年3月那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢然後2023年用預算追蹤那今年3月我一直在問說\n其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的code of conduct\n議員議員議員議員\nbicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士\n跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。\n第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11\n院長覺得\n跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的\n而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。\n因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權\n還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱\n我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突\n比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為\n但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位\nbicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?\n我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責\n在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?\n不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說\n院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是\n中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理\n則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。\n相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒\n這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?\n一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算\n眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概\n做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:17.043\n代主席。謝謝主席。那有請院長。請廖院長。\n\n00:22.001 --> 00:44.743\n院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範\n\n00:46.204 --> 00:48.449\n可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?\n\n00:55.151 --> 01:19.385\n我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百。但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。\n\n01:20.405 --> 01:40.189\n按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來\n\n01:40.529 --> 01:54.323\n所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準?對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎?\n\n01:55.885 --> 01:57.046\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關\n\n02:13.277 --> 02:18.463\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關\n\n02:31.798 --> 02:38.200\n院士會議自己的運作程序的運作那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦我想我們有不同的意見沒關係就可以來處理那院長應該有記得其實不是只有今年3月那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢然後2023年用預算追蹤那今年3月我一直在問說\n\n02:56.405 --> 03:15.288\n其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的codeofconduct\n\n03:31.926 --> 03:34.189\nbicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士\n\n03:49.850 --> 04:18.721\n跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。\n\n04:22.323 --> 04:37.416\n第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任\n\n04:38.677 --> 04:40.838\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11\n\n05:09.359 --> 05:09.520\n院長覺得\n\n05:10.868 --> 05:38.586\n跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的\n\n05:39.086 --> 05:46.288\n而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。\n\n06:02.791 --> 06:21.724\n因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權\n\n06:22.885 --> 06:48.342\n還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱\n\n06:50.763 --> 07:16.261\n我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突\n\n07:17.182 --> 07:38.767\n比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為\n\n07:44.628 --> 08:02.309\n但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位\n\n08:02.910 --> 08:03.951\nbicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?\n\n08:21.513 --> 08:46.905\n我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責\n\n08:47.645 --> 08:55.878\n在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?\n\n08:57.304 --> 09:01.085\n不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說\n\n09:23.550 --> 09:36.235\n院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是\n\n09:51.561 --> 10:14.775\n中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理\n\n10:16.736 --> 10:18.098\n則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。\n\n10:32.697 --> 10:57.667\n相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒\n\n10:58.507 --> 11:23.024\n這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?\n\n11:25.566 --> 11:34.893\n一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算\n\n11:40.037 --> 11:57.396\n眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概\n\n12:00.299 --> 12:26.021\n做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎\n\n12:26.661 --> 12:33.969\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":17.043,"text":"代主席。謝謝主席。那有請院長。請廖院長。"},{"start":22.001,"end":44.743,"text":"院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範"},{"start":46.204,"end":48.449,"text":"可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?"},{"start":55.151,"end":79.385,"text":"我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百。但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。"},{"start":80.405,"end":100.189,"text":"按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來"},{"start":100.529,"end":114.323,"text":"所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準?對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎?"},{"start":115.885,"end":117.046,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":133.277,"end":138.463,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":151.798,"end":158.2,"text":"院士會議自己的運作程序的運作那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦我想我們有不同的意見沒關係就可以來處理那院長應該有記得其實不是只有今年3月那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢然後2023年用預算追蹤那今年3月我一直在問說"},{"start":176.405,"end":195.288,"text":"其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的code of conduct"},{"start":196.169,"end":211.766,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":211.926,"end":214.189,"text":" bicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士"},{"start":229.85,"end":258.721,"text":"跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。"},{"start":262.323,"end":277.416,"text":"第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任"},{"start":278.677,"end":280.838,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":309.359,"end":309.52,"text":"院長覺得"},{"start":310.868,"end":338.586,"text":"跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的"},{"start":339.086,"end":346.288,"text":"而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。"},{"start":362.791,"end":381.724,"text":"因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權"},{"start":382.885,"end":408.342,"text":"還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱"},{"start":410.763,"end":436.261,"text":"我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突"},{"start":437.182,"end":458.767,"text":"比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為"},{"start":464.628,"end":482.309,"text":"但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位"},{"start":482.91,"end":483.951,"text":" bicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?"},{"start":501.513,"end":526.905,"text":"我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責"},{"start":527.645,"end":535.878,"text":"在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?"},{"start":537.304,"end":541.085,"text":"不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說"},{"start":563.55,"end":576.235,"text":"院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是"},{"start":591.561,"end":614.775,"text":"中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理"},{"start":616.736,"end":618.098,"text":"則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。"},{"start":632.697,"end":657.667,"text":"相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒"},{"start":658.507,"end":683.024,"text":"這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?"},{"start":685.566,"end":694.893,"text":"一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算"},{"start":700.037,"end":717.396,"text":"眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概"},{"start":720.299,"end":746.021,"text":"做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎"},{"start":746.661,"end":753.969,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時44分）謝謝主席。有請院長。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：院長辛苦了。也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的院士國籍案有非常詳細的說明，我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明得很清楚，我知道這個非常的艱困，謝謝院長。今天其實是針對另外一個問題想請教院長，想請問院長，如果有一群人訂定一個自律規範，可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定時的處理機制，那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。"],["范委員雲：靠個人自我約束……"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["范委員雲：就有用了？"],["廖院長俊智：當然不保證說百分之百，但是這是第一步，畢竟這是一個透過民主的機制制定出來的，沒有辦法用其他方法輕易來改變。"],["范委員雲：照院長這樣的說法，中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等，就只要訂規範，都不用訂申訴跟處理機制？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的，我們有不同的法規可以來做。"],["范委員雲：所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準？對院士的話，大家訂了規範就會自己遵行；可是對研究員的話，因為他們的層級比較低，所以就必須訂定處理機制嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，因為大部分的院士不在本院任職，假如院士在本院任職，仍然是受我們所有院裡面的規範來限制，所以不需要用這個……"],["范委員雲：因為院士大部分不在本院任職……"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯。"],["范委員雲：所以我們的規範……"],["廖院長俊智：因為它只是一個榮譽職，他並不是在本院的人員，我們沒辦法約束不在本院支薪、不在本院工作、不是本院人員……"],["范委員雲：所以院長認為我們無法約束中華民國院士的行為，是這樣嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是要靠院士會議的……"],["范委員雲：靠院士自律？"],["廖院長俊智：院士會議自己的運作，程序的運作。"],["范委員雲：其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題，我想我們有不同的意見，沒關係，這可以來處理。院長應該記得，其實不是只有今年3月，我從2021年就針對這一題質詢，然後2023年用預算追蹤。今年3月我一直在問，其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則，也有相關規定，包含揭露財產來源、利益迴避、不得歧視、騷擾、霸凌等，還有傷害學術自由等部分，希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則，就是英文講的code of conduct。我還是要謝謝院長有推動這個部分，因為你們給我的回復，終於……因為之前因為疫情，終於在今年7月修改。修改前你們有告訴我們說，你們相關的委員會裡面，然後因為會中意見多元，尚未獲得共識，所以顯然裡面是有一些爭吵、有不同的意見，我覺得是好事，後來決定要擴大參與繼續研議。最後你們參考了國內外學術研究機構，列出來就兩個，美國國家科學院跟聯合國教科文組織相關，然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範，還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的，的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神，還增加了增進人類福祉，確保永續環境；第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候，應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊；第七條，我覺得第七條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與違反時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第七條，因為前面都是進步，可是第七條好像把這個責任丟給了他原本的聘任機關跟研究贊助單位。就像院長講的，我們很多院士是在其他國家任職，那我想要舉例，那個國家如果是民主國家，我們有些院士也是別的民主國家的院士，對不對？那可能他的機制我們可以信任。如果有院士擔任威權國家的學術工作，而那個威權國家就是不處理的話，院長覺得會不會是個問題？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告一下，中研院有兩個部分：一個是我們實體的研究單位，我是院長來負責綜理所有的院務；另外一個是院士會議，我當主席，裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的，所以裡面的條文不是中研院訂的，而是院士透過院士會議的機制來訂的。"],["范委員雲：我知道。院長剛剛一直說院士是榮譽職，我們知道他是終身榮譽職，可是這個行為準則出來之後，我還看到新聞有舉例，你們的新聞處對外說，他跟諾貝爾獎一樣，所以沒有這種取消的事。我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對，因為你們第八條就講，「中央研究院院士職權如下：一、選舉院士及名譽院士。二、選舉評議員。」這個「評議員」就是您剛剛講的，中研院非常重要的學術評議會成員，幾乎與很多事情有關，除了你們在座的所長都是之外，其實院士有這個職權。還可以「籌議國家學術研究方針」，第四個涉及委託案可能有或沒有。","我想舉的例子就是，右邊這邊所舉的例子就是讓大家感受，院士會不會沒有爭議。我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議，因為有298位院士，可是不能排除過去真的有爭議的！郭位2019年在香港城市大學擔任校長，但學生被港警濫射、濫捕的關鍵時刻卻神隱，我覺得「神穩」看起來還算是有一些道德良知啦！張翔從2019年到2021年，他也是我們的院士，在港大校長任內打壓大學自主、學生自治，涉及收回學生會的辦公室，還有不承認學生會的地位，所以港大因此就沒有學生會，更不用講他在學生發生抗議時的一些衝突。比起郭位在關鍵時刻消失，張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由。","剛剛講，你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神。我知道院長不方便得罪院士，但這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會，覺得應該撤銷張翔的院士職，可是你們的行為準則連一個調查、申訴機制都沒有，是不是會讓大家質疑他們有自律嗎？然後就更不用講，我看張翔的發言，他說他是為了中國為了他所帶領的香港大學，因為中國必須有戰略定位。然後港大在發展AI，中研院也有在發展AI，依照你們的這個……我當然不是說他就不能夠參與相關的研究，他其實應該揭露，尤其在中研院進行AI相關決策的時候，他應該利益回避嘛！再請問院長，您覺得這個自律有用嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想院士雖然有「籌議國家學術研究方針」的職權，可是我們國家大部分的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議，他可以建議……"],["范委員雲：對，中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有直接的關係，他們是選評議員，而不是來制定中研院的政策。中研院的政策是由在場的所有人負責，而在場的向立法院負責，不是院士來負責。"],["范委員雲：所以您的意思是說，院士沒有什麼功能嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不能這樣講。他有這些職權，他可以提出他的想法，我們給予適當地尊重，但是……"],["范委員雲：他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛！"],["廖院長俊智：對，這個是……"],["范委員雲：這點您不否認？"],["廖院長俊智：對，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：院士的組成也會影響院長是誰，您也不否認？"],["廖院長俊智：這也不一定。"],["范委員雲：不一定？"],["廖院長俊智：不一定，因為院士……"],["范委員雲：我知道總統也有一定的權責。"],["廖院長俊智：不是這樣說。院士不是直接選舉院長，而是評議員透過一個遴選小組來選，不是院士，而是評論員裡面選出遴選小組……"],["范委員雲：中研院院士到底有沒有實質的影響力？我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題，我跟院長的意見並不一樣，但是我尊重您。我今天只要求一個社會科學的思辨過程。是不是中研院……因為我看到英國國家學術院、澳洲科學院，還有我自己的辦公室研究的美國科學院，針對他們的院士都有講到，The Conduct Committee 有一個行為的小組接受申訴，如果違反了像剛剛講的，也就是你們這些寫得非常漂亮的規定時，它有調查機制也有處理，輕則要求道歉、書面聲明、警告，重則就是暫時除名一段時間，甚至到完全除名。","我想，也許你會說我們的制度跟英國國家學術院、澳洲科學院、美國等相關的科學院不完全一樣，但我想我們是中央研究院，我也待過中研院，我們是不是請院長承諾，你們選5個民主國家相近的院士制度，分析一下他們違反倫理時的相關處理機制，給本席一個報告好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，要我們分析當然可以，但是很重要一點要跟委員提醒，這些都是他們透過民主的機制自己定出來的，而不是他們院長定的，沒有一個院長可以定這些。"],["范委員雲：當然我知道不是院長您……國籍案我們也做了兩、三年，我知道院長有很多的難為之處，您畢竟是院士出身的。但我想中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督，您今天就不用來立法院了，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：這個不一樣！這個一個是院士，一個是中央研究院的研究單位，院士並沒有領薪水。"],["范委員雲：我知道，院士也可以……"],["廖院長俊智：他也沒有budget（預算）要立法院通過，只是有開會的預算。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。"],["廖院長俊智：我們中研院每年要審的預算是要來做研究的，這部分跟院士的關係非常微弱，只有建議性，院士提供一些學術上的諮詢……"],["范委員雲：我知道，只有院士能夠自律，就像之前我主張中研究院士的國籍違反中央研究院組織法第八條，我們大概做了4年的時間，我一個任期4年才完成這件事。我知道院長也非常地辛苦，很多院士拒絕改變，可是我們依法論法，好不好？所以我現在要做的事情是，既然中研院宣稱別的國家跟我們不一樣，那是不是選擇5個民主國家相關的院士制度，給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理時的機制好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們可以提出分析報告。"],["范委員雲：OK，做分析就好了，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，辛苦了。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委的質詢，謝謝院長。"],["主席（范委員雲）：謝謝秀寳委員代理主持。","我們現在必須先處理解凍案，請羅智強委員再等一下。","請議事人員宣讀，我們再來進行討論跟協商。","一、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。","二、審查中央研究院函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在處理「中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目『一般學術研究及評議』預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案」，這個案子在場的委員有沒有任何的意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：謝謝。因為第一案就是國籍案，寫得非常清楚。我要特別謝謝，雖然剛剛又提出了新的問題，但還是謝謝你們，我知道非常地艱難而你們處理了，讓我們未來院士的國籍都能夠依照中央研究院組織法第八條辦理，謝謝。所以這個案子我們就准予動支，提報院會，解凍案第一案審查完畢。","現在審查第二案。第二案是「113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)『自然及人文社會科學研究』預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案」。有沒有任何委員有任何意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：謝謝。我們這兩案都審查完畢，准予動支，提報院會。","再來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}}