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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 67.146, \"end\": 67.366, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 67.366, \"end\": 67.446, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 67.446, \"end\": 67.627, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 67.627, \"end\": 68.067, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 68.067, \"end\": 68.167, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 68.167, \"end\": 68.227, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 68.227, \"end\": 68.247, \"score\": 0.289}]}, {\"start\": 69.728, \"end\": 87.299, \"text\": \"出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 69.728, \"end\": 70.268, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 70.268, \"end\": 71.089, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": 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686.896, \"end\": 687.036, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 687.036, \"end\": 687.437, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 687.437, \"end\": 687.678, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 687.678, \"end\": 688.62, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 688.62, \"end\": 688.64, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,086 --> 00:00:06,040\n主席好那我們先請數位部黃部長請黃部長\n\n2\n00:00:13,084 --> 00:00:41,232\n委員好部長好部長我先就這個預算的本身來討論一下其實過去這些年這個數位部大家在媒體上都被嘲諷是這個出國旅遊部當然本席沒有反對那個公務員出國考察這是很正常的事情但是每年出國旅費我想看從今年呢今年的話是這個派6人出去那花費了33萬那明年度預計要派13個人花費212萬增加幅度增加5倍多\n\n3\n00:00:42,112 --> 00:01:08,247\n當然人變多旅費增加也是正常的不過如果看到一個人的平均的話今年的話平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬但到明年預計是一個人要花費16.4萬增加的幅度我想也是會比較多一點所以想請教一下部長到底明年的出國計畫為什麼要出國那做什麼事情那繼續達到什麼成效那以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多各位請部長說明一下\n\n4\n00:01:09,728 --> 00:01:27,299\n出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%\n\n5\n00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:31,124\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n\n6\n00:01:46,730 --> 00:02:14,729\n跟委員說明一下就是我們其實從總額來講我們明年是降低的我們今年是396萬明年是324萬所以我們講的總價嘛我想是個人個人以這份為例這個明年派員出國計畫你個人一個人從5萬增加到平均增加到16萬增加三倍啊是那我沒有反對你出國那我又說第一個你要講原因嘛為什麼會增加三倍那第二個出國要做什麼事情你們數位部出國要達到什麼成效這個才是重點啊我們沒有反對你出國啊\n\n7\n00:02:16,030 --> 00:02:34,126\n像我們要參加RSA就是自然最大的盛會那我們跟荷蘭有自然上面的合作然後跟英國歐盟有這個電子簽章的那個AI評測的相關的合作所以因為他們跑的距離就比較遠是不是很歐美的如果是東南亞可能就會錢就比較少一點\n\n8\n00:02:36,408 --> 00:03:02,394\n好謝謝說明那我還希望說後續還是要提供給大家本會委員一份說明到底這個出國的這個差別今年跟明年度那最後當然最重要還是說你們出國預計要達到什麼成效嗎因為大家過去各部會都在出國啦但是為什麼唯獨數位部大家會被特別提出來講就是看不到成效所以我們希望你們出國考察合理的但是到底要做什麼事情看了這麼多先進的數位治理的國家然後回來要做什麼事情\n\n9\n00:03:02,574 --> 00:03:07,657\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n\n10\n00:03:20,886 --> 00:03:34,214\n裡面的內容包含說什麼建構我國數位信任環境提升通報詐騙訊息跟查詢強化商務防詐還有健全這個第三方支付等等的每一項都很大每一項都很重要但\n\n11\n00:03:35,461 --> 00:04:02,438\n但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來了,包含說大家過去我們上次諮詢也提到了這個網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少,到底那時候要花多少錢那你現在這個是測試版,那真的上路之後要花多少錢這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來,我們希望說部長可以簡單說明一下你這個明年的3億你要怎麼花那因為今年給3億了,明年要花3億,那今年跟明年的差別又是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:02,918 --> 00:04:19,505\n那個先對那個網路通報查詢完跟委員做個報告那那一部分明年大概是編五千五千大概不到六千萬啊五千八那主要是做這個剛剛講因為用很多AI技術所以報告AI的技術的導入就是的精進還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算例詞\n\n13\n00:04:20,325 --> 00:04:20,805\n委員委員委員委員委員\n\n14\n00:04:39,952 --> 00:04:41,193\n市長你剛剛提到說明年比如說打炸通報網這事情你要再花5000多萬來做\n\n15\n00:05:03,251 --> 00:05:18,444\n第二開發現在不是已經開發完了嗎?就是你還要精進因為它包括因為我們是用AI去去AI去打打詐騙嘛那AI本身要去很多的精進跟訓練還有它擴大所以這個東西還需要再開發當然第二算令你要增加經費我是說開發多少錢\n\n16\n00:05:20,705 --> 00:05:45,083\n因為你算例以第一個前提還有電的問題還有你的後續雲端的問題所以你要有多少的機會放在這部分我覺得你還是要把它講清楚不能說一個3億然後你說打炸同胞就占了五千多萬那其實這東西大家是不是要幫我搞清楚為什麼要這樣講呢再回到再看一下業今年已經3億了但今年的話3億之後我想今年的這個打炸的這個成效真的是不太好啦\n\n17\n00:05:45,703 --> 00:05:45,863\n黃健豪議員\n\n18\n00:06:15,663 --> 00:06:16,424\n委員：黃健豪\n\n19\n00:06:35,317 --> 00:06:52,437\n打仗當然就是說這個我們現在是慢慢的從一些技術我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打那當然這個裡面這個效果會慢慢的出現現在其實我們看到詐騙的前端的數目剛剛講就加廣告的數目有在減少因為我們下架很多加廣告\n\n20\n00:06:53,278 --> 00:07:16,682\n這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到比如說因為那個詐騙是養套殺養大概在所以今天看到這些數目可能是在3個月6個月以前甚至更早以前的一些詐騙的一些結果但是呢我們今天的我個人認為說我們今天的這個跨部位整個合作的打詐成效未來應該會很明顯的看到這個數額的下降\n\n21\n00:07:17,122 --> 00:07:38,619\n所以確實這是各部會包括很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐我們書發部是在網路廣告平台上面那剛剛講這個假公眾人物或假名的廣告我們已經看到下降很多因為我們用AI去做掃描去做防詐那有看到效果但是呢這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到\n\n22\n00:07:38,939 --> 00:08:07,027\n好部長的確啦因為其實一定要這樣講因為你們是第一線後續的司法怎麼處理後續的金融怎麼處理都是後端的事情但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙資訊息基本上現階段來講除了電話那種以前那種打電話騙你電話之外現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛那我們當然希望說我每年編列3億給數位部那你這個部分你知道前端的防禦要做好那所以再繼續看一下一個我剛剛提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的這個量能量登錄機制喔\n\n23\n00:08:08,089 --> 00:08:25,421\n之前執行局就提過了這個第三方支付的管理的問題當然對數位部來講這是你們的主管業務但是我覺得你們的強制力很低啊我們看這個登錄機制的狀況已經有這個機制出來了但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣真正登錄的機制業者真的只有0.59%啊\n\n24\n00:08:27,222 --> 00:08:33,343\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算\n\n25\n00:08:55,808 --> 00:08:56,889\n第一個就是跟委員講你要通過第三方支付的這個能量登錄\n\n26\n00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:40,331\n才能過去跟銀行或是跟金融單位去申請虛擬帳號我們這個單位其實我個人是覺得這目前是通過64家我們匯值的幾家現在是64家這64家我們當然還在持續監控這些64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號其他那1萬多家其實因為他沒有通過能量登錄所以他是不能夠去拿到虛擬帳號所以就沒辦法詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙這64家我們是有在管考\n\n27\n00:09:40,871 --> 00:10:07,145\n那所以就是說目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考所以我個人希望能夠通過的這第三彎支付的能量我們不需要多但是我們需要每一家都能夠落實資安落實他的那個所謂的這個所謂的反洗錢的能力啊這個是我們是最最重視那這個我們有跟不是這個來部長我還是這樣講啦他來登錄是好事當然你們可以管考那他不來登錄的他有什麼樣的機制去處理\n\n28\n00:10:08,166 --> 00:10:25,447\n他不來登錄他就拿不到金融機構的帳號另外他跟委員報告就是這14000多家是因為登記的時候他可以說他要做結果他都不做但是他如果要做第三方他如果沒有登錄就做第三方他是有兩年的刑責\n\n29\n00:10:26,929 --> 00:10:49,856\n這是後續你不要推這個吧我現在接下來談的這個第三方支付的這個洗錢房子的這個草案你約束的是有登錄的還是沒登錄的沒有沒有如果沒有登錄從事這個行業一樣是兩年的有期徒刑所以登錄的呢有登……對不起我確認一下所以這一萬多家不管他有沒有進到你們這個登錄機制裡面對他只要進行了相關的洗錢的工作\n\n30\n00:10:50,296 --> 00:11:17,827\n他會都是適用這部法律嗎?他只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話他就會被我們這個打炸專法所管制第三方那個什麼洗澡防治法所管制所以我們就會去如果他沒有登錄他還從事就是兩年那你這個是9月預告了嗎?那現在已經11月了什麼時候要開始送進來開始上路?我們已經就是已經對阿9月預告了阿那什麼時候開始處理這個事情?10月底10月底那個執法都會公佈嘛10月底\n\n31\n00:11:18,898 --> 00:11:28,640\n11月底11月底就下禮拜而已喔對可以嗎部長可以可以就照事成我們公布以後就會開始處罰好部長謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4086\t6040\t主席好 那我們先請數位部黃部長請黃部長\n13084\t41232\t委員好部長好部長我先就這個預算的本身來討論一下其實過去這些年這個數位部大家在媒體上都被嘲諷是這個出國旅遊部當然本席沒有反對那個公務員出國考察這是很正常的事情但是每年出國旅費我想看從今年呢今年的話是這個派6人出去那花費了33萬那明年度預計要派13個人花費212萬增加幅度增加5倍多\n42112\t68247\t當然人變多旅費增加也是正常的不過如果看到一個人的平均的話今年的話平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬但到明年預計是一個人要花費16.4萬增加的幅度我想也是會比較多一點所以想請教一下部長到底明年的出國計畫為什麼要出國那做什麼事情那繼續達到什麼成效那以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多各位請部長說明一下\n69728\t87299\t出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%\n88300\t91124\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n106730\t134729\t跟委員說明一下就是我們其實從總額來講我們明年是降低的我們今年是396萬明年是324萬所以我們講的總價嘛我想是個人個人以這份為例這個明年派員出國計畫你個人一個人從5萬增加到平均增加到16萬增加三倍啊是那我沒有反對你出國那我又說第一個你要講原因嘛為什麼會增加三倍那第二個出國要做什麼事情你們數位部出國要達到什麼成效這個才是重點啊我們沒有反對你出國啊\n136030\t154126\t像我們要參加RSA就是自然最大的盛會那我們跟荷蘭有自然上面的合作然後跟英國歐盟有這個電子簽章的那個AI評測的相關的合作所以因為他們跑的距離就比較遠是不是很歐美的如果是東南亞可能就會錢就比較少一點\n156408\t182394\t好 謝謝說明那我還希望說後續還是要提供給大家本會委員一份說明到底這個出國的這個差別今年跟明年度那最後當然最重要還是說你們出國預計要達到什麼成效嗎因為大家過去各部會都在出國啦但是為什麼唯獨數位部大家會被特別提出來講就是看不到成效所以我們希望你們出國考察合理的但是到底要做什麼事情看了這麼多先進的數位治理的國家然後回來要做什麼事情\n182574\t187657\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n200886\t214214\t裡面的內容包含說什麼建構我國數位信任環境提升通報詐騙訊息跟查詢強化商務防詐還有健全這個第三方支付等等的每一項都很大每一項都很重要但\n215461\t242438\t但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來了,包含說大家過去我們上次諮詢也提到了這個網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少,到底那時候要花多少錢那你現在這個是測試版,那真的上路之後要花多少錢這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來,我們希望說部長可以簡單說明一下你這個明年的3億你要怎麼花那因為今年給3億了,明年要花3億,那今年跟明年的差別又是什麼\n242918\t259505\t那個先對那個網路通報查詢完跟委員做個報告那那一部分明年大概是編五千五千大概不到六千萬啊五千八那主要是做這個剛剛講因為用很多AI技術所以報告AI的技術的導入就是的精進還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算例詞\n260325\t260805\t委員委員委員委員委員\n279952\t281193\t市長你剛剛提到說明年比如說打炸通報網這事情你要再花5000多萬來做\n303251\t318444\t第二開發現在不是已經開發完了嗎?就是你還要精進因為它包括因為我們是用AI去去AI去打打詐騙嘛那AI本身要去很多的精進跟訓練還有它擴大所以這個東西還需要再開發當然第二算令你要增加經費我是說開發多少錢\n320705\t345083\t因為你算例以第一個前提還有電的問題還有你的後續雲端的問題所以你要有多少的機會放在這部分我覺得你還是要把它講清楚不能說一個3億然後你說打炸同胞就占了五千多萬那其實這東西大家是不是要幫我搞清楚為什麼要這樣講呢再回到再看一下業今年已經3億了但今年的話3億之後我想今年的這個打炸的這個成效真的是不太好啦\n345703\t345863\t黃健豪議員\n375663\t376424\t委員：黃健豪\n395317\t412437\t打仗當然就是說這個我們現在是慢慢的從一些技術我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打那當然這個裡面這個效果會慢慢的出現現在其實我們看到詐騙的前端的數目剛剛講就加廣告的數目有在減少因為我們下架很多加廣告\n413278\t436682\t這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到比如說因為那個詐騙是養套殺養大概在所以今天看到這些數目可能是在3個月6個月以前甚至更早以前的一些詐騙的一些結果但是呢我們今天的我個人認為說我們今天的這個跨部位整個合作的打詐成效未來應該會很明顯的看到這個數額的下降\n437122\t458619\t所以確實這是各部會包括很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐我們書發部是在網路廣告平台上面那剛剛講這個假公眾人物或假名的廣告我們已經看到下降很多因為我們用AI去做掃描去做防詐那有看到效果但是呢這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到\n458939\t487027\t好部長的確啦因為其實一定要這樣講因為你們是第一線後續的司法怎麼處理後續的金融怎麼處理都是後端的事情但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙資訊息基本上現階段來講除了電話那種以前那種打電話騙你電話之外現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛那我們當然希望說我每年編列3億給數位部那你這個部分你知道前端的防禦要做好那所以再繼續看一下一個我剛剛提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的這個量能量登錄機制喔\n488089\t505421\t之前執行局就提過了這個第三方支付的管理的問題當然對數位部來講這是你們的主管業務但是我覺得你們的強制力很低啊我們看這個登錄機制的狀況已經有這個機制出來了但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣真正登錄的機制業者真的只有0.59%啊\n507222\t513343\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算\n535808\t536889\t第一個就是跟委員講你要通過第三方支付的這個能量登錄\n554159\t580331\t才能過去跟銀行或是跟金融單位去申請虛擬帳號我們這個單位其實我個人是覺得這目前是通過64家我們匯值的幾家現在是64家這64家我們當然還在持續監控這些64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號其他那1萬多家其實因為他沒有通過能量登錄所以他是不能夠去拿到虛擬帳號所以就沒辦法詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙這64家我們是有在管考\n580871\t607145\t那所以就是說目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考所以我個人希望能夠通過的這第三彎支付的能量我們不需要多但是我們需要每一家都能夠落實資安落實他的那個所謂的這個所謂的反洗錢的能力啊這個是我們是最最重視那這個我們有跟不是這個來部長我還是這樣講啦他來登錄是好事當然你們可以管考那他不來登錄的他有什麼樣的機制去處理\n608166\t625447\t他不來登錄他就拿不到金融機構的帳號另外他跟委員報告就是這14000多家是因為登記的時候他可以說他要做結果他都不做但是他如果要做第三方他如果沒有登錄就做第三方他是有兩年的刑責\n626929\t649856\t這是後續你不要推這個吧我現在接下來談的這個第三方支付的這個洗錢房子的這個草案你約束的是有登錄的還是沒登錄的沒有沒有如果沒有登錄從事這個行業一樣是兩年的有期徒刑所以登錄的呢有登……對不起我確認一下所以這一萬多家不管他有沒有進到你們這個登錄機制裡面對他只要進行了相關的洗錢的工作\n650296\t677827\t他會都是適用這部法律嗎?他只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話他就會被我們這個打炸專法所管制第三方那個什麼洗澡防治法所管制所以我們就會去如果他沒有登錄他還從事就是兩年那你這個是9月預告了嗎?那現在已經11月了什麼時候要開始送進來開始上路?我們已經就是已經對阿9月預告了阿那什麼時候開始處理這個事情?10月底10月底那個執法都會公佈嘛10月底\n678898\t688640\t11月底11月底就下禮拜而已喔對可以嗎部長可以可以就照事成我們公布以後就會開始處罰好部長謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"主席好 那我們先請數位部黃部長請黃部長\n委員好部長好部長我先就這個預算的本身來討論一下其實過去這些年這個數位部大家在媒體上都被嘲諷是這個出國旅遊部當然本席沒有反對那個公務員出國考察這是很正常的事情但是每年出國旅費我想看從今年呢今年的話是這個派6人出去那花費了33萬那明年度預計要派13個人花費212萬增加幅度增加5倍多\n當然人變多旅費增加也是正常的不過如果看到一個人的平均的話今年的話平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬但到明年預計是一個人要花費16.4萬增加的幅度我想也是會比較多一點所以想請教一下部長到底明年的出國計畫為什麼要出國那做什麼事情那繼續達到什麼成效那以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多各位請部長說明一下\n出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n跟委員說明一下就是我們其實從總額來講我們明年是降低的我們今年是396萬明年是324萬所以我們講的總價嘛我想是個人個人以這份為例這個明年派員出國計畫你個人一個人從5萬增加到平均增加到16萬增加三倍啊是那我沒有反對你出國那我又說第一個你要講原因嘛為什麼會增加三倍那第二個出國要做什麼事情你們數位部出國要達到什麼成效這個才是重點啊我們沒有反對你出國啊\n像我們要參加RSA就是自然最大的盛會那我們跟荷蘭有自然上面的合作然後跟英國歐盟有這個電子簽章的那個AI評測的相關的合作所以因為他們跑的距離就比較遠是不是很歐美的如果是東南亞可能就會錢就比較少一點\n好 謝謝說明那我還希望說後續還是要提供給大家本會委員一份說明到底這個出國的這個差別今年跟明年度那最後當然最重要還是說你們出國預計要達到什麼成效嗎因為大家過去各部會都在出國啦但是為什麼唯獨數位部大家會被特別提出來講就是看不到成效所以我們希望你們出國考察合理的但是到底要做什麼事情看了這麼多先進的數位治理的國家然後回來要做什麼事情\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n裡面的內容包含說什麼建構我國數位信任環境提升通報詐騙訊息跟查詢強化商務防詐還有健全這個第三方支付等等的每一項都很大每一項都很重要但\n但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來了,包含說大家過去我們上次諮詢也提到了這個網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少,到底那時候要花多少錢那你現在這個是測試版,那真的上路之後要花多少錢這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來,我們希望說部長可以簡單說明一下你這個明年的3億你要怎麼花那因為今年給3億了,明年要花3億,那今年跟明年的差別又是什麼\n那個先對那個網路通報查詢完跟委員做個報告那那一部分明年大概是編五千五千大概不到六千萬啊五千八那主要是做這個剛剛講因為用很多AI技術所以報告AI的技術的導入就是的精進還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算例詞\n委員委員委員委員委員\n市長你剛剛提到說明年比如說打炸通報網這事情你要再花5000多萬來做\n第二開發現在不是已經開發完了嗎?就是你還要精進因為它包括因為我們是用AI去去AI去打打詐騙嘛那AI本身要去很多的精進跟訓練還有它擴大所以這個東西還需要再開發當然第二算令你要增加經費我是說開發多少錢\n因為你算例以第一個前提還有電的問題還有你的後續雲端的問題所以你要有多少的機會放在這部分我覺得你還是要把它講清楚不能說一個3億然後你說打炸同胞就占了五千多萬那其實這東西大家是不是要幫我搞清楚為什麼要這樣講呢再回到再看一下業今年已經3億了但今年的話3億之後我想今年的這個打炸的這個成效真的是不太好啦\n黃健豪議員\n委員：黃健豪\n打仗當然就是說這個我們現在是慢慢的從一些技術我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打那當然這個裡面這個效果會慢慢的出現現在其實我們看到詐騙的前端的數目剛剛講就加廣告的數目有在減少因為我們下架很多加廣告\n這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到比如說因為那個詐騙是養套殺養大概在所以今天看到這些數目可能是在3個月6個月以前甚至更早以前的一些詐騙的一些結果但是呢我們今天的我個人認為說我們今天的這個跨部位整個合作的打詐成效未來應該會很明顯的看到這個數額的下降\n所以確實這是各部會包括很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐我們書發部是在網路廣告平台上面那剛剛講這個假公眾人物或假名的廣告我們已經看到下降很多因為我們用AI去做掃描去做防詐那有看到效果但是呢這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到\n好部長的確啦因為其實一定要這樣講因為你們是第一線後續的司法怎麼處理後續的金融怎麼處理都是後端的事情但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙資訊息基本上現階段來講除了電話那種以前那種打電話騙你電話之外現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛那我們當然希望說我每年編列3億給數位部那你這個部分你知道前端的防禦要做好那所以再繼續看一下一個我剛剛提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的這個量能量登錄機制喔\n之前執行局就提過了這個第三方支付的管理的問題當然對數位部來講這是你們的主管業務但是我覺得你們的強制力很低啊我們看這個登錄機制的狀況已經有這個機制出來了但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣真正登錄的機制業者真的只有0.59%啊\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算\n第一個就是跟委員講你要通過第三方支付的這個能量登錄\n才能過去跟銀行或是跟金融單位去申請虛擬帳號我們這個單位其實我個人是覺得這目前是通過64家我們匯值的幾家現在是64家這64家我們當然還在持續監控這些64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號其他那1萬多家其實因為他沒有通過能量登錄所以他是不能夠去拿到虛擬帳號所以就沒辦法詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙這64家我們是有在管考\n那所以就是說目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考所以我個人希望能夠通過的這第三彎支付的能量我們不需要多但是我們需要每一家都能夠落實資安落實他的那個所謂的這個所謂的反洗錢的能力啊這個是我們是最最重視那這個我們有跟不是這個來部長我還是這樣講啦他來登錄是好事當然你們可以管考那他不來登錄的他有什麼樣的機制去處理\n他不來登錄他就拿不到金融機構的帳號另外他跟委員報告就是這14000多家是因為登記的時候他可以說他要做結果他都不做但是他如果要做第三方他如果沒有登錄就做第三方他是有兩年的刑責\n這是後續你不要推這個吧我現在接下來談的這個第三方支付的這個洗錢房子的這個草案你約束的是有登錄的還是沒登錄的沒有沒有如果沒有登錄從事這個行業一樣是兩年的有期徒刑所以登錄的呢有登……對不起我確認一下所以這一萬多家不管他有沒有進到你們這個登錄機制裡面對他只要進行了相關的洗錢的工作\n他會都是適用這部法律嗎?他只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話他就會被我們這個打炸專法所管制第三方那個什麼洗澡防治法所管制所以我們就會去如果他沒有登錄他還從事就是兩年那你這個是9月預告了嗎?那現在已經11月了什麼時候要開始送進來開始上路?我們已經就是已經對阿9月預告了阿那什麼時候開始處理這個事情?10月底10月底那個執法都會公佈嘛10月底\n11月底11月底就下禮拜而已喔對可以嗎部長可以可以就照事成我們公布以後就會開始處罰好部長謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.086 --> 00:06.040\n主席好那我們先請數位部黃部長請黃部長\n\n00:13.084 --> 00:41.232\n委員好部長好部長我先就這個預算的本身來討論一下其實過去這些年這個數位部大家在媒體上都被嘲諷是這個出國旅遊部當然本席沒有反對那個公務員出國考察這是很正常的事情但是每年出國旅費我想看從今年呢今年的話是這個派6人出去那花費了33萬那明年度預計要派13個人花費212萬增加幅度增加5倍多\n\n00:42.112 --> 01:08.247\n當然人變多旅費增加也是正常的不過如果看到一個人的平均的話今年的話平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬但到明年預計是一個人要花費16.4萬增加的幅度我想也是會比較多一點所以想請教一下部長到底明年的出國計畫為什麼要出國那做什麼事情那繼續達到什麼成效那以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多各位請部長說明一下\n\n01:09.728 --> 01:27.299\n出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%\n\n01:28.300 --> 01:31.124\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n\n01:46.730 --> 02:14.729\n跟委員說明一下就是我們其實從總額來講我們明年是降低的我們今年是396萬明年是324萬所以我們講的總價嘛我想是個人個人以這份為例這個明年派員出國計畫你個人一個人從5萬增加到平均增加到16萬增加三倍啊是那我沒有反對你出國那我又說第一個你要講原因嘛為什麼會增加三倍那第二個出國要做什麼事情你們數位部出國要達到什麼成效這個才是重點啊我們沒有反對你出國啊\n\n02:16.030 --> 02:34.126\n像我們要參加RSA就是自然最大的盛會那我們跟荷蘭有自然上面的合作然後跟英國歐盟有這個電子簽章的那個AI評測的相關的合作所以因為他們跑的距離就比較遠是不是很歐美的如果是東南亞可能就會錢就比較少一點\n\n02:36.408 --> 03:02.394\n好謝謝說明那我還希望說後續還是要提供給大家本會委員一份說明到底這個出國的這個差別今年跟明年度那最後當然最重要還是說你們出國預計要達到什麼成效嗎因為大家過去各部會都在出國啦但是為什麼唯獨數位部大家會被特別提出來講就是看不到成效所以我們希望你們出國考察合理的但是到底要做什麼事情看了這麼多先進的數位治理的國家然後回來要做什麼事情\n\n03:02.574 --> 03:07.657\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n\n03:20.886 --> 03:34.214\n裡面的內容包含說什麼建構我國數位信任環境提升通報詐騙訊息跟查詢強化商務防詐還有健全這個第三方支付等等的每一項都很大每一項都很重要但\n\n03:35.461 --> 04:02.438\n但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來了,包含說大家過去我們上次諮詢也提到了這個網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少,到底那時候要花多少錢那你現在這個是測試版,那真的上路之後要花多少錢這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來,我們希望說部長可以簡單說明一下你這個明年的3億你要怎麼花那因為今年給3億了,明年要花3億,那今年跟明年的差別又是什麼\n\n04:02.918 --> 04:19.505\n那個先對那個網路通報查詢完跟委員做個報告那那一部分明年大概是編五千五千大概不到六千萬啊五千八那主要是做這個剛剛講因為用很多AI技術所以報告AI的技術的導入就是的精進還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算例詞\n\n04:20.325 --> 04:20.805\n委員委員委員委員委員\n\n04:39.952 --> 04:41.193\n市長你剛剛提到說明年比如說打炸通報網這事情你要再花5000多萬來做\n\n05:03.251 --> 05:18.444\n第二開發現在不是已經開發完了嗎?就是你還要精進因為它包括因為我們是用AI去去AI去打打詐騙嘛那AI本身要去很多的精進跟訓練還有它擴大所以這個東西還需要再開發當然第二算令你要增加經費我是說開發多少錢\n\n05:20.705 --> 05:45.083\n因為你算例以第一個前提還有電的問題還有你的後續雲端的問題所以你要有多少的機會放在這部分我覺得你還是要把它講清楚不能說一個3億然後你說打炸同胞就占了五千多萬那其實這東西大家是不是要幫我搞清楚為什麼要這樣講呢再回到再看一下業今年已經3億了但今年的話3億之後我想今年的這個打炸的這個成效真的是不太好啦\n\n05:45.703 --> 05:45.863\n黃健豪議員\n\n06:15.663 --> 06:16.424\n委員：黃健豪\n\n06:35.317 --> 06:52.437\n打仗當然就是說這個我們現在是慢慢的從一些技術我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打那當然這個裡面這個效果會慢慢的出現現在其實我們看到詐騙的前端的數目剛剛講就加廣告的數目有在減少因為我們下架很多加廣告\n\n06:53.278 --> 07:16.682\n這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到比如說因為那個詐騙是養套殺養大概在所以今天看到這些數目可能是在3個月6個月以前甚至更早以前的一些詐騙的一些結果但是呢我們今天的我個人認為說我們今天的這個跨部位整個合作的打詐成效未來應該會很明顯的看到這個數額的下降\n\n07:17.122 --> 07:38.619\n所以確實這是各部會包括很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐我們書發部是在網路廣告平台上面那剛剛講這個假公眾人物或假名的廣告我們已經看到下降很多因為我們用AI去做掃描去做防詐那有看到效果但是呢這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到\n\n07:38.939 --> 08:07.027\n好部長的確啦因為其實一定要這樣講因為你們是第一線後續的司法怎麼處理後續的金融怎麼處理都是後端的事情但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙資訊息基本上現階段來講除了電話那種以前那種打電話騙你電話之外現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛那我們當然希望說我每年編列3億給數位部那你這個部分你知道前端的防禦要做好那所以再繼續看一下一個我剛剛提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的這個量能量登錄機制喔\n\n08:08.089 --> 08:25.421\n之前執行局就提過了這個第三方支付的管理的問題當然對數位部來講這是你們的主管業務但是我覺得你們的強制力很低啊我們看這個登錄機制的狀況已經有這個機制出來了但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣真正登錄的機制業者真的只有0.59%啊\n\n08:27.222 --> 08:33.343\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算\n\n08:55.808 --> 08:56.889\n第一個就是跟委員講你要通過第三方支付的這個能量登錄\n\n09:14.159 --> 09:40.331\n才能過去跟銀行或是跟金融單位去申請虛擬帳號我們這個單位其實我個人是覺得這目前是通過64家我們匯值的幾家現在是64家這64家我們當然還在持續監控這些64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號其他那1萬多家其實因為他沒有通過能量登錄所以他是不能夠去拿到虛擬帳號所以就沒辦法詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙這64家我們是有在管考\n\n09:40.871 --> 10:07.145\n那所以就是說目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考所以我個人希望能夠通過的這第三彎支付的能量我們不需要多但是我們需要每一家都能夠落實資安落實他的那個所謂的這個所謂的反洗錢的能力啊這個是我們是最最重視那這個我們有跟不是這個來部長我還是這樣講啦他來登錄是好事當然你們可以管考那他不來登錄的他有什麼樣的機制去處理\n\n10:08.166 --> 10:25.447\n他不來登錄他就拿不到金融機構的帳號另外他跟委員報告就是這14000多家是因為登記的時候他可以說他要做結果他都不做但是他如果要做第三方他如果沒有登錄就做第三方他是有兩年的刑責\n\n10:26.929 --> 10:49.856\n這是後續你不要推這個吧我現在接下來談的這個第三方支付的這個洗錢房子的這個草案你約束的是有登錄的還是沒登錄的沒有沒有如果沒有登錄從事這個行業一樣是兩年的有期徒刑所以登錄的呢有登……對不起我確認一下所以這一萬多家不管他有沒有進到你們這個登錄機制裡面對他只要進行了相關的洗錢的工作\n\n10:50.296 --> 11:17.827\n他會都是適用這部法律嗎?他只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話他就會被我們這個打炸專法所管制第三方那個什麼洗澡防治法所管制所以我們就會去如果他沒有登錄他還從事就是兩年那你這個是9月預告了嗎?那現在已經11月了什麼時候要開始送進來開始上路?我們已經就是已經對阿9月預告了阿那什麼時候開始處理這個事情?10月底10月底那個執法都會公佈嘛10月底\n\n11:18.898 --> 11:28.640\n11月底11月底就下禮拜而已喔對可以嗎部長可以可以就照事成我們公布以後就會開始處罰好部長謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.086,"end":6.04,"text":"主席好 那我們先請數位部黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":13.084,"end":41.232,"text":"委員好部長好部長我先就這個預算的本身來討論一下其實過去這些年這個數位部大家在媒體上都被嘲諷是這個出國旅遊部當然本席沒有反對那個公務員出國考察這是很正常的事情但是每年出國旅費我想看從今年呢今年的話是這個派6人出去那花費了33萬那明年度預計要派13個人花費212萬增加幅度增加5倍多"},{"start":42.112,"end":68.247,"text":"當然人變多旅費增加也是正常的不過如果看到一個人的平均的話今年的話平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬但到明年預計是一個人要花費16.4萬增加的幅度我想也是會比較多一點所以想請教一下部長到底明年的出國計畫為什麼要出國那做什麼事情那繼續達到什麼成效那以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多各位請部長說明一下"},{"start":69.728,"end":87.299,"text":"出國經費的確是因為外面在我上任之前外面有一些批評所以我上任之後就把114年要出國做整個通盤檢討那我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費也就是說114年總出國經費是少於113年大概少了29%"},{"start":88.3,"end":91.124,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。"},{"start":106.73,"end":134.729,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是我們其實從總額來講我們明年是降低的我們今年是396萬明年是324萬所以我們講的總價嘛我想是個人個人以這份為例這個明年派員出國計畫你個人一個人從5萬增加到平均增加到16萬增加三倍啊是那我沒有反對你出國那我又說第一個你要講原因嘛為什麼會增加三倍那第二個出國要做什麼事情你們數位部出國要達到什麼成效這個才是重點啊我們沒有反對你出國啊"},{"start":136.03,"end":154.126,"text":"像我們要參加RSA就是自然最大的盛會那我們跟荷蘭有自然上面的合作然後跟英國歐盟有這個電子簽章的那個AI評測的相關的合作所以因為他們跑的距離就比較遠是不是很歐美的如果是東南亞可能就會錢就比較少一點"},{"start":156.408,"end":182.394,"text":"好 謝謝說明那我還希望說後續還是要提供給大家本會委員一份說明到底這個出國的這個差別今年跟明年度那最後當然最重要還是說你們出國預計要達到什麼成效嗎因為大家過去各部會都在出國啦但是為什麼唯獨數位部大家會被特別提出來講就是看不到成效所以我們希望你們出國考察合理的但是到底要做什麼事情看了這麼多先進的數位治理的國家然後回來要做什麼事情"},{"start":182.574,"end":187.657,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。"},{"start":200.886,"end":214.214,"text":"裡面的內容包含說什麼建構我國數位信任環境提升通報詐騙訊息跟查詢強化商務防詐還有健全這個第三方支付等等的每一項都很大每一項都很重要但"},{"start":215.461,"end":242.438,"text":"但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來了,包含說大家過去我們上次諮詢也提到了這個網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少,到底那時候要花多少錢那你現在這個是測試版,那真的上路之後要花多少錢這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來,我們希望說部長可以簡單說明一下你這個明年的3億你要怎麼花那因為今年給3億了,明年要花3億,那今年跟明年的差別又是什麼"},{"start":242.918,"end":259.505,"text":"那個先對那個網路通報查詢完跟委員做個報告那那一部分明年大概是編五千五千大概不到六千萬啊五千八那主要是做這個剛剛講因為用很多AI技術所以報告AI的技術的導入就是的精進還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算例詞"},{"start":260.325,"end":260.805,"text":"委員委員委員委員委員"},{"start":279.952,"end":281.193,"text":"市長你剛剛提到說明年比如說打炸通報網這事情你要再花5000多萬來做"},{"start":303.251,"end":318.444,"text":"第二開發現在不是已經開發完了嗎?就是你還要精進因為它包括因為我們是用AI去去AI去打打詐騙嘛那AI本身要去很多的精進跟訓練還有它擴大所以這個東西還需要再開發當然第二算令你要增加經費我是說開發多少錢"},{"start":320.705,"end":345.083,"text":"因為你算例以第一個前提還有電的問題還有你的後續雲端的問題所以你要有多少的機會放在這部分我覺得你還是要把它講清楚不能說一個3億然後你說打炸同胞就占了五千多萬那其實這東西大家是不是要幫我搞清楚為什麼要這樣講呢再回到再看一下業今年已經3億了但今年的話3億之後我想今年的這個打炸的這個成效真的是不太好啦"},{"start":345.703,"end":345.863,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":375.663,"end":376.424,"text":"委員：黃健豪"},{"start":395.317,"end":412.437,"text":"打仗當然就是說這個我們現在是慢慢的從一些技術我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打那當然這個裡面這個效果會慢慢的出現現在其實我們看到詐騙的前端的數目剛剛講就加廣告的數目有在減少因為我們下架很多加廣告"},{"start":413.278,"end":436.682,"text":"這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到比如說因為那個詐騙是養套殺養大概在所以今天看到這些數目可能是在3個月6個月以前甚至更早以前的一些詐騙的一些結果但是呢我們今天的我個人認為說我們今天的這個跨部位整個合作的打詐成效未來應該會很明顯的看到這個數額的下降"},{"start":437.122,"end":458.619,"text":"所以確實這是各部會包括很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐我們書發部是在網路廣告平台上面那剛剛講這個假公眾人物或假名的廣告我們已經看到下降很多因為我們用AI去做掃描去做防詐那有看到效果但是呢這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到"},{"start":458.939,"end":487.027,"text":"好部長的確啦因為其實一定要這樣講因為你們是第一線後續的司法怎麼處理後續的金融怎麼處理都是後端的事情但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙資訊息基本上現階段來講除了電話那種以前那種打電話騙你電話之外現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛那我們當然希望說我每年編列3億給數位部那你這個部分你知道前端的防禦要做好那所以再繼續看一下一個我剛剛提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的這個量能量登錄機制喔"},{"start":488.089,"end":505.421,"text":"之前執行局就提過了這個第三方支付的管理的問題當然對數位部來講這是你們的主管業務但是我覺得你們的強制力很低啊我們看這個登錄機制的狀況已經有這個機制出來了但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣真正登錄的機制業者真的只有0.59%啊"},{"start":507.222,"end":513.343,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":535.808,"end":536.889,"text":"第一個就是跟委員講你要通過第三方支付的這個能量登錄"},{"start":554.159,"end":580.331,"text":"才能過去跟銀行或是跟金融單位去申請虛擬帳號我們這個單位其實我個人是覺得這目前是通過64家我們匯值的幾家現在是64家這64家我們當然還在持續監控這些64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號其他那1萬多家其實因為他沒有通過能量登錄所以他是不能夠去拿到虛擬帳號所以就沒辦法詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙這64家我們是有在管考"},{"start":580.871,"end":607.145,"text":"那所以就是說目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考所以我個人希望能夠通過的這第三彎支付的能量我們不需要多但是我們需要每一家都能夠落實資安落實他的那個所謂的這個所謂的反洗錢的能力啊這個是我們是最最重視那這個我們有跟不是這個來部長我還是這樣講啦他來登錄是好事當然你們可以管考那他不來登錄的他有什麼樣的機制去處理"},{"start":608.166,"end":625.447,"text":"他不來登錄他就拿不到金融機構的帳號另外他跟委員報告就是這14000多家是因為登記的時候他可以說他要做結果他都不做但是他如果要做第三方他如果沒有登錄就做第三方他是有兩年的刑責"},{"start":626.929,"end":649.856,"text":"這是後續你不要推這個吧我現在接下來談的這個第三方支付的這個洗錢房子的這個草案你約束的是有登錄的還是沒登錄的沒有沒有如果沒有登錄從事這個行業一樣是兩年的有期徒刑所以登錄的呢有登……對不起我確認一下所以這一萬多家不管他有沒有進到你們這個登錄機制裡面對他只要進行了相關的洗錢的工作"},{"start":650.296,"end":677.827,"text":"他會都是適用這部法律嗎?他只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話他就會被我們這個打炸專法所管制第三方那個什麼洗澡防治法所管制所以我們就會去如果他沒有登錄他還從事就是兩年那你這個是9月預告了嗎?那現在已經11月了什麼時候要開始送進來開始上路?我們已經就是已經對阿9月預告了阿那什麼時候開始處理這個事情?10月底10月底那個執法都會公佈嘛10月底"},{"start":678.898,"end":688.64,"text":"11月底11月底就下禮拜而已喔對可以嗎部長可以可以就照事成我們公布以後就會開始處罰好部長謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時31分）主席好。我先請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我先就預算的本身來討論一下，其實過去這些年，數位部在媒體上都被嘲諷是出國旅遊部，當然本席沒有反對公務員出國考察，這是很正常的事情，但是每年的出國旅費，我看今年是派6人出去，花費了33萬；明年度預計要派13個人，花費212萬，增加幅度是五倍多，當然人變多，旅費增加也是正常的。不過，如果看到一個人平均的話，今年平均一個人的出國旅費是5.5萬，到明年預計是一個人花費16.4萬，我想增加的幅度也是會比較多一點，所以想請教一下部長，到底明年的出國計畫為何，為什麼要出國、要做什麼事情、預計達到什麼成效以及為什麼一個人的出國旅費會增加這麼多，可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，在我上任之前，出國經費的確在外面有一些批評，所以我上任之後，就把114年要出國的進行通盤檢討，我自己在內部已經刪掉29%的出國經費，也就是114年總出國經費是少於113年，大概少了29%，包括這幾年，其實因為疫情之後，整個cost包括機票、旅館，最近的確是變得非常貴，確實會有一些個人經費individual會增加，這個細部資訊，關於數產署的部分，我請數產署署長說明。"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員說明一下，從total來講，我們明年是降低的，今年是396萬，明年是324萬，所以我們是降低的。"],["黃委員健豪：你講的是總價，我講的是個人，以這份為例，明年派員出國計畫一個人從5萬平均增加到16萬，增加三倍啊！"],["林代理署長俊秀：是！那我們……"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有反對你出國，但是第一個，你要講原因嘛！為什麼會增加三倍？第二個，出國要做什麼事情，你們數位部出國預計要達到什麼成效，這才是重點，我沒有反對你出國啊！"],["林代理署長俊秀：是！像我們要參加RSA，就是資安最大的盛會，我們跟荷蘭有資安上面的合作，跟英國、歐盟有電子簽章的AI評測相關的合作，因為他跑的距離就比較遠，是去歐美的，如果是去東南亞，可能錢就會比較少一點。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝說明。我希望後續還是要提供給本會委員一份說明，到底今年跟明年度出國的差別，當然最重要的還是你們出國預計要達到什麼成效，過去各部會都在出國，但是為什麼唯獨數位部會被大家特別提出來講，就是看不到成效。所以我們希望你們出國考察是合理的，但是到底要做什麼事情，看了這麼多數位治理的先進國家，回來要做什麼事情，拜託你們講清楚。","再來，回到核心問題，為什麼我會講大家覺得你們的成效很差？我們看到所謂的智慧防詐數位信任應用發展計畫，它是分年度的計畫，編列12億元，分4年編列，今年3億，明年又繼續3億。但是我們看到裡面的內容，包含建構我國數位信任環境、提升民眾通報詐騙訊息跟查詢、強化商務防詐還有健全第三方支付等等，每一項都很大，每一項都很重要，但是細節基本上在預算書裡面是看不出來，包含我們上次質詢也提到了，網路詐騙的通報查詢網到底要花多少，到底那時候花了多少錢？現在這個是測試版，真的上路之後要花多少錢？這部分在這份預算裡面其實也沒有很詳列出來，我們希望部長可以簡單說明一下你明年的3億要怎麼花？因為今年已經給3億了，明年要花3億，今年跟明年的差別又是什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：先對網路通報查詢網跟委員做個報告，那一部分明年大概是編五千多不到六千萬，5,800萬，主要是做……剛剛講因為用很多AI技術，所以包括AI技術的精進，還有就是因為跑AI所以需要算力值，所以算力就是包括server、包括operation，就是維運，包括通報，這些整個加起來，包括整個維運還有系統的開發大概五千八百多萬，我也跟委員報告，網路通報查詢網在第一階段我們叫公測，一萬兩千多人來下載使用，這一萬兩千多人下載使用到今天為止，雖然現在停止下載，但是並沒有停止使用，到11月8號為止，我們已經有通報四萬八千六百多個所謂的假廣告……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你剛剛提到說明年比如說打詐通報網這事情你要再花五千多萬來做，第一個，現在不是已經開發完了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：就是還要精進，包括因為我們是用AI去打詐騙，AI本身有很多的精進跟訓練，還有它要擴大，所以這個東西還需要再開發。"],["黃委員健豪：當然第一個，算力你要增加經費，我是說開發多少錢？因為算力，第一個可能還有電的問題，還有後續雲端的問題，所以你要有多少的經費放在這部分，我覺得當然你還是要把它講清楚，不能一個3億，然後你說打詐通報就占了五千多萬，其實這個東西大家還是沒有辦法搞清楚，為什麼要這樣講呢？今年已經3億了，但今年花了3億之後，我想今年的打詐成效真的是不太好，以10月來講，我們基本上每個月開一次委員會都在檢討這件事情，光是10月一個月的財損就已經120億，等於過去這些7、8、9月到10月，每個月財損都破百億，按照這個數據來看，搞不好今年會破千億。最可怕的是什麼？最可怕的是已經提出來了，那也真的花了這麼多錢去做打詐的防制，結果你看10月被詐騙的金額跟9月相比還是一樣持續在成長，唯一有下降的大概是假投資詐騙，下降一點點，但其他的網路詐騙、假買家騙賣家、假交友等等的詐騙都還是增加，所以到底我們編列這麼多防詐預算是不夠，還是太多不知道怎麼用？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我認為打詐像是一場戰爭……"],["黃委員健豪：是啊！是戰爭沒錯。"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟詐騙集團在打仗，我們現在是慢慢地從一些技術，我們用AI去跟詐騙集團對打，當然這個裡面效果會慢慢地出現，現在其實我們看到詐騙前端的數目，剛剛講假廣告的數目有在減少，因為我們下架很多假廣告，這個的效果通常要差不多3到6個月才看到，比如說因為詐騙是養套殺，除了今天看到的這些數目可能是在3個月、6個月前，甚至更早以前的一些詐騙結果，但是我個人認為我們今天跨部會整個合作的打詐成效，未來應該會很明顯地看到數額的下降，所以確實這是很多部會一起合作起來的一個打詐，我們數發部是在網路廣告平台上面，剛剛講假公眾人物或假名人廣告，我們已經看到下降很多，因為我們用AI去做掃描、去做防詐，有看到效果，但是這個效果的呈現可能需要點時間才看得到。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，的確啦！其實應該這樣講，因為你們是第一線，後續的司法怎麼處理、後續的金融怎麼處理是後端的事情，但因為民眾接觸到的詐騙訊息，基本上現階段來講，除了以前那種打電話騙你之外，現在最主流的當然還是數位嘛！我們當然希望說每年編列3億給數位部，你這個部分，前端的防禦要做好。我剛才提到說3億裡面包含了第三方支付的能量登錄機制，之前質詢的時候就提過了第三方支付的管理問題，當然對數位部來講，這是你們的主管業務，但是我覺得你們的強制力很低，我們看這個登錄機制的狀況，已經有這個機制出來了，但是登錄的狀況怎麼樣？真正登錄的業者只有0.59%，以合法的家數有1萬1,489家，目前真的登錄的只有68家，裡面還包含了一些是被廢止登錄的，包含像街口，他們已經不做第三方支付，他們沒有單純只做第三方支付，他們去做電子支付了，所以他們是歸金管會管，但第三方支付裡面有一萬多家，裡面真的只有68家去登錄，我想問一下到底為什麼這個能量這麼低？當初我們第一次質詢部長的時候就跟部長講，這種第三方支付本來就違法了，不可能你推出這個能量登錄機制之後，它就很乖地跑來登錄，那你的武器是什麼呢？它就是不登錄，那你能怎麼辦呢？部長，它不登錄能怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：跟委員講第一個就是，要通過第三方支付的能量登錄，才能夠去跟銀行或是跟金融單位申請虛擬帳號，其實我個人是覺得，目前是通過64家，我們廢止了幾家，現在是64家，這64家我們當然還在持續監控，這64家是可以去申請虛擬帳號，其他那一萬多家其實因為它沒有通過能量登錄，它是不能夠拿到虛擬帳號，所以詐騙集團就沒辦法用這些去做詐騙，這64家我們是有在管考，目前我們還會精進我們對這些機構的管考，所以我個人希望能夠通過這第三方支付的能量，我們不需要多，但是我們希望每一家都能夠落實資安、落實所謂的反洗錢的能力，這個是我們最重視，我們有跟金管會……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我還是這樣講啦！它來登錄是好事，當然你們可以管考，那它不來登錄的，它有什麼樣的機制去處理？"],["黃部長彥男：它不來登錄，它就拿不到金融機構的帳號……"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員報告，這一萬四千多家是因為登記的時候，它可以說它要做，結果它都不做，但是它如果沒有登錄就做第三方，它就會有兩年的刑責……"],["黃委員健豪：這是後續你們要推的這個吧！我接下來要談第三方支付的洗錢防制草案，你約束的是有登錄的還是沒有……"],["林代理署長俊秀：沒有，如果沒有登錄，從事這個行業，一樣是兩年的有期徒刑。"],["黃委員健豪：所以登錄的呢？對不起，確認一下，所以這一萬多家，不管它有沒有進到登錄機制裡面，它只要進行了相關的洗錢工作，它都適用這一部法律嗎？"],["林代理署長俊秀：它只要從事第三方支付的營業活動的話，它就會被洗錢防制法所管制，如果它沒有登錄，它還從事就是兩年。"],["黃委員健豪：那你這個是9月預告了嘛！現在已經11月了，什麼時候要開始送進來、開始上路？"],["林代理署長俊秀：我們就是已經……"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，9月預告啦！那什麼時候開始處理這個事情？"],["林代理署長俊秀：11月底子法都會公布。"],["黃委員健豪：11月底就下禮拜而已？"],["林代理署長俊秀：對。"],["黃委員健豪：可以嗎？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：就照時程，我們公布以後就會開始……"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","現在休息。","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時52分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，接下來邀請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-9","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","游顥","何欣純","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","賴士葆","黃國昌","吳春城","林月琴","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳培瑜"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算","agenda_id":"1139801_00010"}}}