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\"start\": 779.911, \"end\": 780.031, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 780.031, \"end\": 780.712, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 780.712, \"end\": 780.912, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 780.912, \"end\": 781.092, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 781.092, \"end\": 781.212, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 781.212, \"end\": 781.353, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 781.353, \"end\": 781.753, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 781.753, \"end\": 781.933, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 781.933, \"end\": 782.073, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 782.073, \"end\": 782.093, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 782.093, \"end\": 782.113, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:03,172\n主席麻煩請顧部長來部長請部長好部長我記得之前有詢問過快起專案的部分我想請教快起專案是執行哪一個什麼樣的內容他的預算有多少期程是多久\n\n2\n00:00:23,892 --> 00:00:31,117\n會計專案好像是列入機密是吧沒關係這個會計專案請部長回答好不好你們先在旁邊2024年3月已經\n\n3\n00:00:36,965 --> 00:00:53,094\n我要請部長回答我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的所以如果要在旁邊講然後等一下大概我們希望可以準備的更周全一點那在這會期專案雖然是機密可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報\n\n4\n00:00:58,817 --> 00:01:23,277\n2024年5月17號上報5月18號上報其實都有登過快起專案而且內容也非常的詳細包括他的預算金額執行的期程還有包括他的內容等等所以我想要請教部長您是不是知道快起專案執行的是什麼應該就是一個無人艇的一個他在騎乘多久\n\n5\n00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:38,317\n期程應該是113到114吧那預算金額大概多少預算的金額這應該這可以講嗎預算金額報紙我剛剛念了報紙通通寫了而且金額一致不差\n\n6\n00:01:40,310 --> 00:02:00,089\n所以我現在為什麼要特別這樣請教部長這個是因為我之前已經問過了所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象部長可以很清楚的知道可是因為我們之前有提過過去我們所有的委員國防外交的委員其實都可以拿到我們的\n\n7\n00:02:00,589 --> 00:02:04,153\n簡易本的機密的這個內容因為沒有人可以記得起來而且用的都是代號我們不知道他為什麼要用這樣的方式這樣大家要怎麼監督或者大家有什麼疑問的時候尤其像朝偉這一次在\n\n8\n00:02:16,648 --> 00:02:19,391\n我們提案的時間短短一個禮拜我們今天問完他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來我覺得預算要這麼高的情況之下是有點強人所難所以在這裡還是要特別提出雖然他列在機密裡面可是\n\n9\n00:02:36,687 --> 00:02:53,939\n今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長因為我記得上一次問過以後部長您說要下去檢討還要瞭解看看嘛那快起專案這個是委中科院研製的他主要就是遙控4艘攻擊無人艇\n\n10\n00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,921\n總金額8億1200萬其中載台部分2億5000多萬還有導控系統中科院執行大概會5億多因為扣掉的話載台部分我們一直說價格高的離譜部長您是不是在你了解以後你覺得有什麼樣要說明的嗎\n\n11\n00:03:17,557 --> 00:03:45,452\n他高達兩億五千七百萬這個在烏克蘭他已經有實戰經驗擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦他的造價才六百多萬甚至如果以他現在最新型的可以可能有逆中功能他是用橡膠材質的他的造價才兩百多萬可是我們光是載台就要六千四百萬我想要請教部長您了解以後你覺得這是合理的嗎\n\n12\n00:03:46,577 --> 00:04:03,126\n我的瞭解是說他實際建造的價格計算物條的比例跟這一個特標的公司為新加坡海軍成造的4艘的這個鋼訓艇是相似的那後續量產的階段的話我想中科院應該會持續來壓低造船的成本\n\n13\n00:04:03,386 --> 00:04:23,384\n這個沒有量產的時候我們不知道你可以壓低多少可是現階段他沒有太大的一個難度的情況之下因為隆德也造過很多船艦啊他過去不是沒有經驗這一艘就要6400萬因為我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇就是它是自殺式的它就是要便宜\n\n14\n00:04:24,705 --> 00:04:24,725\n院長﹖\n\n15\n00:04:51,227 --> 00:04:56,748\n委員因為它是原型它要包含它的設計費用在裡面你的設計費用院長它有什麼設計因為這個是一個全新的構計你告訴我它有什麼設計無人靶船包括你的永武專案裡面的無人靶船都已經曾經做過了我們的這種靶船我們台灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎\n\n16\n00:05:18,512 --> 00:05:28,120\n龍德、中信或者甚至台船他們造這種船會有很困難嗎可是你要造價是人家的八倍十倍這是非常離譜再加上這是載台的部分而已他全案高達八億多如果平均下來一台要兩億多而不是六千四百萬他兩億多裡面是什麼中科院\n\n17\n00:05:39,349 --> 00:05:44,553\n他裏面的導控系統過去我看他們一向因為也是報紙燈的就是他的跳屏式干擾衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識避障系統或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等這個都在我們過去的\n\n18\n00:06:00,086 --> 00:06:11,564\n所有的一些中科院的一個研發案裡面都已經有過技術或者已經都編過預算了這個我們甚至在這一次還編了5億多這是合理的嗎\n\n19\n00:06:13,359 --> 00:06:31,880\n委員因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術去整合整合到這個裡面來院長那是給不知道的人聽的你所謂的整合你的無人機怎麼整合的無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡今天你不僅造價非常的高昂因為它是很普通的一些船體而已\n\n20\n00:06:33,061 --> 00:06:37,022\n它是自殺式的攻擊你們給的資料全部都列在裡面的那個都是我們原來有的這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的再一次跟大家探討因為為什麼要在這裡說因為我們有很多的預算就像剛剛跟部長建議的如果可以希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算不要把那個預算過去\n\n21\n00:07:00,367 --> 00:07:20,325\n的慣例通通有給委員我不知道為什麼這一次沒有跟委員報告我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例不管媒體公開的程度是如何我剛剛就是在講說你剛剛比如說問到預算的部分我不想去回答的原因就是說大家是因為列入機密預算那\n\n22\n00:07:20,785 --> 00:07:24,106\n委員如果想要知道我們會親自到我們辦公室就每個案子跟我們做報告我們提的沒有機密的問題我現在說的是他現在載台他就是很普通的東西今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用而且我們自己也做過了比如說無人把船在永武專案裡面你就已經\n\n23\n00:08:11,534 --> 00:08:27,082\n因為他還有其他很多主要的功效像我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的部長你可以再更詳細的去了解這個狀況這個部分他如果要花這麼多錢我們要今天如果換算用那個600多萬算烏克蘭做200燒的時候他才多少12億我們如果做200燒用這樣的價格我們是200多億\n\n24\n00:08:37,427 --> 00:08:51,373\n如果我們要做這樣子的供給要編到百分之五GDP或者甚至百分之十他可以因為你可以這樣編這是我們要特別提出來主席不好意思我想我們量產階段一定會來壓低這個相關的人\n\n25\n00:08:53,874 --> 00:08:58,316\n你兩年就可以把它研製出來表示這個不是困難的一個技術你今年標出去明年就要完成這四艘它不是很困難部長請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理處跟主席借一點時間這個也是有關福利的部分那可以看到我們在這個\n\n26\n00:09:20,631 --> 00:09:29,710\n勞務承攬的這個我們看一下臨時人員在參謀本部我們編的預算一個人臨時人員一個人高達一個月高達\n\n27\n00:09:31,135 --> 00:09:55,596\n十六萬多比市長還多他負責軍事行政我們看到下面那個表格他科研的一個月才兩萬多五十五個人編四百三十六萬平均一個人才兩萬多那上面那個一個人他是什麼樣的臨時人員一個人一個月可以領十六萬多那在下面一個就是環保業務的一個人也是一個月領六萬多\n\n28\n00:09:57,837 --> 00:10:17,781\n我們不知道他是亂編還是這是要讓我們去審的這樣的預算嗎這部分時間因為時間不太夠所以這我們先提出來另外還有一個就是看到應該我想應該是聯俄的傳譯的部分吧應該傳譯英文\n\n29\n00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:27,649\n一個月的薪資比一個次漲還要高一個月16萬多16萬多多資深你的臨時人員這個多資深我們下去再跟委員做一個報告\n\n30\n00:10:37,023 --> 00:10:50,881\n因為我們看到下面軍醫局海軍司令部所有的單位每一個環保人員一個月才一萬多甚至比基本工資還不如可是其他的都很高還有六萬多的\n\n31\n00:10:52,957 --> 00:11:20,800\n參謀本部的臨時人員環境的（拜委員是聯合次長有關於剛剛委員所提出來這個問題我們後面澄清清楚以後再跟委員做書面的報告我們現在也要提醒如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高而且你說資深傳譯這個我們給時間讓他們說明你們把它理清楚到時候審預算的時候或者跟委員都可以做交流跟溝通好不好\n\n32\n00:11:22,361 --> 00:11:25,245\n再一個就是我們加班費的部分這個也是我們當時跟王朝偉其實我們在上一屆其實有提到上一屆還是這一屆所以剛剛委員那個問題我們回去再了解因為可能也許剛剛的訊息是有點我們再去查證一下好不好\n\n33\n00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:42,102\n是你的預算書寫出來我們看到的就這樣讓你們查清楚以後再說可是我要再請教部長就這個112、113、114年度因為我們就加班費、夜點費的部分從60塊所要增加到100塊可是你看它最下面它112年度的金額113年度、114年度你從60塊變成100塊可是你的那個預算卻更低是什麼原因\n\n34\n00:12:10,552 --> 00:12:15,076\n那你是跟我們之前的那個狀況是一樣就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎\n\n35\n00:12:34,952 --> 00:12:40,756\n這我們會去檢討去做一個依註因為核定的時間是在8月中以後一個就是一定要能夠支應第二個預算編在哪裡到時候預算會議的時候來告訴你這個部分是我們已經對你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道最大的可能是這樣\n\n36\n00:12:57,248 --> 00:13:02,113\n所以要怎麼做讓我們很迅速的讓我們知道這個結果是我們一定會找到這個預算的經費\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t3172\t主席麻煩請顧部長來部長請部長好部長我記得之前有詢問過快起專案的部分我想請教快起專案是執行哪一個什麼樣的內容他的預算有多少期程是多久\n23892\t31117\t會計專案好像是列入機密是吧沒關係這個會計專案請部長回答好不好你們先在旁邊2024年3月已經\n36965\t53094\t我要請部長回答我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的所以如果要在旁邊講然後等一下大概我們希望可以準備的更周全一點那在這會期專案雖然是機密可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報\n58817\t83277\t2024年5月17號上報5月18號上報其實都有登過快起專案而且內容也非常的詳細包括他的預算金額執行的期程還有包括他的內容等等所以我想要請教部長您是不是知道快起專案執行的是什麼應該就是一個無人艇的一個他在騎乘多久\n84167\t98317\t期程應該是113到114吧那預算金額大概多少預算的金額這應該這可以講嗎預算金額報紙我剛剛念了報紙通通寫了而且金額一致不差\n100310\t120089\t所以我現在為什麼要特別這樣請教部長這個是因為我之前已經問過了所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象部長可以很清楚的知道可是因為我們之前有提過過去我們所有的委員國防外交的委員其實都可以拿到我們的\n120589\t124153\t簡易本的機密的這個內容因為沒有人可以記得起來而且用的都是代號我們不知道他為什麼要用這樣的方式這樣大家要怎麼監督或者大家有什麼疑問的時候尤其像朝偉這一次在\n136648\t139391\t我們提案的時間短短一個禮拜我們今天問完他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來我覺得預算要這麼高的情況之下是有點強人所難所以在這裡還是要特別提出雖然他列在機密裡面可是\n156687\t173939\t今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長因為我記得上一次問過以後部長您說要下去檢討還要瞭解看看嘛那快起專案這個是委中科院研製的他主要就是遙控4艘攻擊無人艇\n175440\t178921\t總金額8億1200萬其中載台部分2億5000多萬還有導控系統中科院執行大概會5億多因為扣掉的話載台部分我們一直說價格高的離譜部長您是不是在你了解以後你覺得有什麼樣要說明的嗎\n197557\t225452\t他高達兩億五千七百萬這個在烏克蘭他已經有實戰經驗擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦他的造價才六百多萬甚至如果以他現在最新型的可以可能有逆中功能他是用橡膠材質的他的造價才兩百多萬可是我們光是載台就要六千四百萬我想要請教部長您了解以後你覺得這是合理的嗎\n226577\t243126\t我的瞭解是說他實際建造的價格計算物條的比例跟這一個特標的公司為新加坡海軍成造的4艘的這個鋼訓艇是相似的那後續量產的階段的話我想中科院應該會持續來壓低造船的成本\n243386\t263384\t這個沒有 量產的時候我們不知道你可以壓低多少可是現階段他沒有太大的一個難度的情況之下因為隆德也造過很多船艦啊他過去不是沒有經驗這一艘就要6400萬因為我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇就是它是自殺式的它就是要便宜\n264705\t264725\t院長﹖\n291227\t296748\t委員因為它是原型它要包含它的設計費用在裡面你的設計費用院長它有什麼設計因為這個是一個全新的構計你告訴我它有什麼設計無人靶船包括你的永武專案裡面的無人靶船都已經曾經做過了我們的這種靶船我們台灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎\n318512\t328120\t龍德、中信或者甚至台船他們造這種船會有很困難嗎可是你要造價是人家的八倍十倍這是非常離譜再加上這是載台的部分而已他全案高達八億多如果平均下來一台要兩億多而不是六千四百萬他兩億多裡面是什麼中科院\n339349\t344553\t他裏面的導控系統過去我看他們一向因為也是報紙燈的就是他的跳屏式干擾衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識避障系統或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等這個都在我們過去的\n360086\t371564\t所有的一些中科院的一個研發案裡面都已經有過技術或者已經都編過預算了這個我們甚至在這一次還編了5億多這是合理的嗎\n373359\t391880\t委員因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術去整合整合到這個裡面來院長那是給不知道的人聽的你所謂的整合你的無人機怎麼整合的無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡今天你不僅造價非常的高昂因為它是很普通的一些船體而已\n393061\t397022\t它是自殺式的攻擊你們給的資料全部都列在裡面的那個都是我們原來有的這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的再一次跟大家探討因為為什麼要在這裡說因為我們有很多的預算就像剛剛跟部長建議的如果可以希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算不要把那個預算過去\n420367\t440325\t的慣例通通有給委員我不知道為什麼這一次沒有跟委員報告我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例不管媒體公開的程度是如何我剛剛就是在講說你剛剛比如說問到預算的部分我不想去回答的原因就是說大家是因為列入機密預算那\n440785\t444106\t委員如果想要知道我們會親自到我們辦公室就每個案子跟我們做報告我們提的沒有機密的問題我現在說的是他現在載台他就是很普通的東西今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用而且我們自己也做過了比如說無人把船在永武專案裡面你就已經\n461254\t491254\t． ． ． ．\n491534\t507082\t因為他還有其他很多主要的功效像我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的部長你可以再更詳細的去了解這個狀況這個部分他如果要花這麼多錢我們要今天如果換算用那個600多萬算烏克蘭做200燒的時候他才多少12億我們如果做200燒用這樣的價格我們是200多億\n517427\t531373\t如果我們要做這樣子的供給要編到百分之五GDP或者甚至百分之十他可以因為你可以這樣編這是我們要特別提出來主席不好意思我想我們量產階段一定會來壓低這個相關的人\n533874\t538316\t你兩年就可以把它研製出來表示這個不是困難的一個技術你今年標出去明年就要完成這四艘它不是很困難部長請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理處跟主席借一點時間這個也是有關福利的部分那可以看到我們在這個\n560631\t569710\t勞務承攬的這個我們看一下臨時人員在參謀本部我們編的預算一個人臨時人員一個人高達一個月高達\n571135\t595596\t十六萬多比市長還多他負責軍事行政我們看到下面那個表格他科研的一個月才兩萬多五十五個人編四百三十六萬平均一個人才兩萬多那上面那個一個人他是什麼樣的臨時人員一個人一個月可以領十六萬多那在下面一個就是環保業務的一個人也是一個月領六萬多\n597837\t617781\t我們不知道他是亂編還是這是要讓我們去審的這樣的預算嗎這部分時間因為時間不太夠所以這我們先提出來另外還有一個就是看到應該我想應該是聯俄的傳譯的部分吧應該傳譯英文\n621280\t627649\t一個月的薪資比一個次漲還要高一個月16萬多16萬多多資深你的臨時人員這個多資深我們下去再跟委員做一個報告\n637023\t650881\t因為我們看到下面軍醫局海軍司令部所有的單位每一個環保人員一個月才一萬多甚至比基本工資還不如可是其他的都很高還有六萬多的\n652957\t680800\t參謀本部的臨時人員環境的（拜委員是聯合次長有關於剛剛委員所提出來這個問題我們後面澄清清楚以後再跟委員做書面的報告我們現在也要提醒如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高而且你說資深傳譯這個我們給時間讓他們說明你們把它理清楚到時候審預算的時候或者跟委員都可以做交流跟溝通好不好\n682361\t685245\t再一個就是我們加班費的部分這個也是我們當時跟王朝偉其實我們在上一屆其實有提到上一屆還是這一屆所以剛剛委員那個問題我們回去再了解因為可能也許剛剛的訊息是有點我們再去查證一下好不好\n698980\t702102\t是你的預算書寫出來我們看到的就這樣讓你們查清楚以後再說可是我要再請教部長就這個112、113、114年度因為我們就加班費、夜點費的部分從60塊所要增加到100塊可是你看它最下面它112年度的金額113年度、114年度你從60塊變成100塊可是你的那個預算卻更低是什麼原因\n730552\t735076\t那你是跟我們之前的那個狀況是一樣就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎\n754952\t760756\t這我們會去檢討去做一個依註因為核定的時間是在8月中以後一個就是一定要能夠支應第二個預算編在哪裡到時候預算會議的時候來告訴你這個部分是我們已經對你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道最大的可能是這樣\n777248\t782113\t所以要怎麼做讓我們很迅速的讓我們知道這個結果是我們一定會找到這個預算的經費\n","txt":"主席麻煩請顧部長來部長請部長好部長我記得之前有詢問過快起專案的部分我想請教快起專案是執行哪一個什麼樣的內容他的預算有多少期程是多久\n會計專案好像是列入機密是吧沒關係這個會計專案請部長回答好不好你們先在旁邊2024年3月已經\n我要請部長回答我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的所以如果要在旁邊講然後等一下大概我們希望可以準備的更周全一點那在這會期專案雖然是機密可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報\n2024年5月17號上報5月18號上報其實都有登過快起專案而且內容也非常的詳細包括他的預算金額執行的期程還有包括他的內容等等所以我想要請教部長您是不是知道快起專案執行的是什麼應該就是一個無人艇的一個他在騎乘多久\n期程應該是113到114吧那預算金額大概多少預算的金額這應該這可以講嗎預算金額報紙我剛剛念了報紙通通寫了而且金額一致不差\n所以我現在為什麼要特別這樣請教部長這個是因為我之前已經問過了所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象部長可以很清楚的知道可是因為我們之前有提過過去我們所有的委員國防外交的委員其實都可以拿到我們的\n簡易本的機密的這個內容因為沒有人可以記得起來而且用的都是代號我們不知道他為什麼要用這樣的方式這樣大家要怎麼監督或者大家有什麼疑問的時候尤其像朝偉這一次在\n我們提案的時間短短一個禮拜我們今天問完他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來我覺得預算要這麼高的情況之下是有點強人所難所以在這裡還是要特別提出雖然他列在機密裡面可是\n今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長因為我記得上一次問過以後部長您說要下去檢討還要瞭解看看嘛那快起專案這個是委中科院研製的他主要就是遙控4艘攻擊無人艇\n總金額8億1200萬其中載台部分2億5000多萬還有導控系統中科院執行大概會5億多因為扣掉的話載台部分我們一直說價格高的離譜部長您是不是在你了解以後你覺得有什麼樣要說明的嗎\n他高達兩億五千七百萬這個在烏克蘭他已經有實戰經驗擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦他的造價才六百多萬甚至如果以他現在最新型的可以可能有逆中功能他是用橡膠材質的他的造價才兩百多萬可是我們光是載台就要六千四百萬我想要請教部長您了解以後你覺得這是合理的嗎\n我的瞭解是說他實際建造的價格計算物條的比例跟這一個特標的公司為新加坡海軍成造的4艘的這個鋼訓艇是相似的那後續量產的階段的話我想中科院應該會持續來壓低造船的成本\n這個沒有 量產的時候我們不知道你可以壓低多少可是現階段他沒有太大的一個難度的情況之下因為隆德也造過很多船艦啊他過去不是沒有經驗這一艘就要6400萬因為我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇就是它是自殺式的它就是要便宜\n院長﹖\n委員因為它是原型它要包含它的設計費用在裡面你的設計費用院長它有什麼設計因為這個是一個全新的構計你告訴我它有什麼設計無人靶船包括你的永武專案裡面的無人靶船都已經曾經做過了我們的這種靶船我們台灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎\n龍德、中信或者甚至台船他們造這種船會有很困難嗎可是你要造價是人家的八倍十倍這是非常離譜再加上這是載台的部分而已他全案高達八億多如果平均下來一台要兩億多而不是六千四百萬他兩億多裡面是什麼中科院\n他裏面的導控系統過去我看他們一向因為也是報紙燈的就是他的跳屏式干擾衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識避障系統或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等這個都在我們過去的\n所有的一些中科院的一個研發案裡面都已經有過技術或者已經都編過預算了這個我們甚至在這一次還編了5億多這是合理的嗎\n委員因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術去整合整合到這個裡面來院長那是給不知道的人聽的你所謂的整合你的無人機怎麼整合的無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡今天你不僅造價非常的高昂因為它是很普通的一些船體而已\n它是自殺式的攻擊你們給的資料全部都列在裡面的那個都是我們原來有的這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的再一次跟大家探討因為為什麼要在這裡說因為我們有很多的預算就像剛剛跟部長建議的如果可以希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算不要把那個預算過去\n的慣例通通有給委員我不知道為什麼這一次沒有跟委員報告我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例不管媒體公開的程度是如何我剛剛就是在講說你剛剛比如說問到預算的部分我不想去回答的原因就是說大家是因為列入機密預算那\n委員如果想要知道我們會親自到我們辦公室就每個案子跟我們做報告我們提的沒有機密的問題我現在說的是他現在載台他就是很普通的東西今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用而且我們自己也做過了比如說無人把船在永武專案裡面你就已經\n． ． ． ．\n因為他還有其他很多主要的功效像我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的部長你可以再更詳細的去了解這個狀況這個部分他如果要花這麼多錢我們要今天如果換算用那個600多萬算烏克蘭做200燒的時候他才多少12億我們如果做200燒用這樣的價格我們是200多億\n如果我們要做這樣子的供給要編到百分之五GDP或者甚至百分之十他可以因為你可以這樣編這是我們要特別提出來主席不好意思我想我們量產階段一定會來壓低這個相關的人\n你兩年就可以把它研製出來表示這個不是困難的一個技術你今年標出去明年就要完成這四艘它不是很困難部長請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理處跟主席借一點時間這個也是有關福利的部分那可以看到我們在這個\n勞務承攬的這個我們看一下臨時人員在參謀本部我們編的預算一個人臨時人員一個人高達一個月高達\n十六萬多比市長還多他負責軍事行政我們看到下面那個表格他科研的一個月才兩萬多五十五個人編四百三十六萬平均一個人才兩萬多那上面那個一個人他是什麼樣的臨時人員一個人一個月可以領十六萬多那在下面一個就是環保業務的一個人也是一個月領六萬多\n我們不知道他是亂編還是這是要讓我們去審的這樣的預算嗎這部分時間因為時間不太夠所以這我們先提出來另外還有一個就是看到應該我想應該是聯俄的傳譯的部分吧應該傳譯英文\n一個月的薪資比一個次漲還要高一個月16萬多16萬多多資深你的臨時人員這個多資深我們下去再跟委員做一個報告\n因為我們看到下面軍醫局海軍司令部所有的單位每一個環保人員一個月才一萬多甚至比基本工資還不如可是其他的都很高還有六萬多的\n參謀本部的臨時人員環境的（拜委員是聯合次長有關於剛剛委員所提出來這個問題我們後面澄清清楚以後再跟委員做書面的報告我們現在也要提醒如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高而且你說資深傳譯這個我們給時間讓他們說明你們把它理清楚到時候審預算的時候或者跟委員都可以做交流跟溝通好不好\n再一個就是我們加班費的部分這個也是我們當時跟王朝偉其實我們在上一屆其實有提到上一屆還是這一屆所以剛剛委員那個問題我們回去再了解因為可能也許剛剛的訊息是有點我們再去查證一下好不好\n是你的預算書寫出來我們看到的就這樣讓你們查清楚以後再說可是我要再請教部長就這個112、113、114年度因為我們就加班費、夜點費的部分從60塊所要增加到100塊可是你看它最下面它112年度的金額113年度、114年度你從60塊變成100塊可是你的那個預算卻更低是什麼原因\n那你是跟我們之前的那個狀況是一樣就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎\n這我們會去檢討去做一個依註因為核定的時間是在8月中以後一個就是一定要能夠支應第二個預算編在哪裡到時候預算會議的時候來告訴你這個部分是我們已經對你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道最大的可能是這樣\n所以要怎麼做讓我們很迅速的讓我們知道這個結果是我們一定會找到這個預算的經費\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:03.172\n主席麻煩請顧部長來部長請部長好部長我記得之前有詢問過快起專案的部分我想請教快起專案是執行哪一個什麼樣的內容他的預算有多少期程是多久\n\n00:23.892 --> 00:31.117\n會計專案好像是列入機密是吧沒關係這個會計專案請部長回答好不好你們先在旁邊2024年3月已經\n\n00:36.965 --> 00:53.094\n我要請部長回答我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的所以如果要在旁邊講然後等一下大概我們希望可以準備的更周全一點那在這會期專案雖然是機密可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報\n\n00:58.817 --> 01:23.277\n2024年5月17號上報5月18號上報其實都有登過快起專案而且內容也非常的詳細包括他的預算金額執行的期程還有包括他的內容等等所以我想要請教部長您是不是知道快起專案執行的是什麼應該就是一個無人艇的一個他在騎乘多久\n\n01:24.167 --> 01:38.317\n期程應該是113到114吧那預算金額大概多少預算的金額這應該這可以講嗎預算金額報紙我剛剛念了報紙通通寫了而且金額一致不差\n\n01:40.310 --> 02:00.089\n所以我現在為什麼要特別這樣請教部長這個是因為我之前已經問過了所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象部長可以很清楚的知道可是因為我們之前有提過過去我們所有的委員國防外交的委員其實都可以拿到我們的\n\n02:00.589 --> 02:04.153\n簡易本的機密的這個內容因為沒有人可以記得起來而且用的都是代號我們不知道他為什麼要用這樣的方式這樣大家要怎麼監督或者大家有什麼疑問的時候尤其像朝偉這一次在\n\n02:16.648 --> 02:19.391\n我們提案的時間短短一個禮拜我們今天問完他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來我覺得預算要這麼高的情況之下是有點強人所難所以在這裡還是要特別提出雖然他列在機密裡面可是\n\n02:36.687 --> 02:53.939\n今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長因為我記得上一次問過以後部長您說要下去檢討還要瞭解看看嘛那快起專案這個是委中科院研製的他主要就是遙控4艘攻擊無人艇\n\n02:55.440 --> 02:58.921\n總金額8億1200萬其中載台部分2億5000多萬還有導控系統中科院執行大概會5億多因為扣掉的話載台部分我們一直說價格高的離譜部長您是不是在你了解以後你覺得有什麼樣要說明的嗎\n\n03:17.557 --> 03:45.452\n他高達兩億五千七百萬這個在烏克蘭他已經有實戰經驗擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦他的造價才六百多萬甚至如果以他現在最新型的可以可能有逆中功能他是用橡膠材質的他的造價才兩百多萬可是我們光是載台就要六千四百萬我想要請教部長您了解以後你覺得這是合理的嗎\n\n03:46.577 --> 04:03.126\n我的瞭解是說他實際建造的價格計算物條的比例跟這一個特標的公司為新加坡海軍成造的4艘的這個鋼訓艇是相似的那後續量產的階段的話我想中科院應該會持續來壓低造船的成本\n\n04:03.386 --> 04:23.384\n這個沒有量產的時候我們不知道你可以壓低多少可是現階段他沒有太大的一個難度的情況之下因為隆德也造過很多船艦啊他過去不是沒有經驗這一艘就要6400萬因為我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇就是它是自殺式的它就是要便宜\n\n04:24.705 --> 04:24.725\n院長﹖\n\n04:51.227 --> 04:56.748\n委員因為它是原型它要包含它的設計費用在裡面你的設計費用院長它有什麼設計因為這個是一個全新的構計你告訴我它有什麼設計無人靶船包括你的永武專案裡面的無人靶船都已經曾經做過了我們的這種靶船我們台灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎\n\n05:18.512 --> 05:28.120\n龍德、中信或者甚至台船他們造這種船會有很困難嗎可是你要造價是人家的八倍十倍這是非常離譜再加上這是載台的部分而已他全案高達八億多如果平均下來一台要兩億多而不是六千四百萬他兩億多裡面是什麼中科院\n\n05:39.349 --> 05:44.553\n他裏面的導控系統過去我看他們一向因為也是報紙燈的就是他的跳屏式干擾衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識避障系統或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等這個都在我們過去的\n\n06:00.086 --> 06:11.564\n所有的一些中科院的一個研發案裡面都已經有過技術或者已經都編過預算了這個我們甚至在這一次還編了5億多這是合理的嗎\n\n06:13.359 --> 06:31.880\n委員因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術去整合整合到這個裡面來院長那是給不知道的人聽的你所謂的整合你的無人機怎麼整合的無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡今天你不僅造價非常的高昂因為它是很普通的一些船體而已\n\n06:33.061 --> 06:37.022\n它是自殺式的攻擊你們給的資料全部都列在裡面的那個都是我們原來有的這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的再一次跟大家探討因為為什麼要在這裡說因為我們有很多的預算就像剛剛跟部長建議的如果可以希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算不要把那個預算過去\n\n07:00.367 --> 07:20.325\n的慣例通通有給委員我不知道為什麼這一次沒有跟委員報告我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例不管媒體公開的程度是如何我剛剛就是在講說你剛剛比如說問到預算的部分我不想去回答的原因就是說大家是因為列入機密預算那\n\n07:20.785 --> 07:24.106\n委員如果想要知道我們會親自到我們辦公室就每個案子跟我們做報告我們提的沒有機密的問題我現在說的是他現在載台他就是很普通的東西今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用而且我們自己也做過了比如說無人把船在永武專案裡面你就已經\n\n08:11.534 --> 08:27.082\n因為他還有其他很多主要的功效像我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的部長你可以再更詳細的去了解這個狀況這個部分他如果要花這麼多錢我們要今天如果換算用那個600多萬算烏克蘭做200燒的時候他才多少12億我們如果做200燒用這樣的價格我們是200多億\n\n08:37.427 --> 08:51.373\n如果我們要做這樣子的供給要編到百分之五GDP或者甚至百分之十他可以因為你可以這樣編這是我們要特別提出來主席不好意思我想我們量產階段一定會來壓低這個相關的人\n\n08:53.874 --> 08:58.316\n你兩年就可以把它研製出來表示這個不是困難的一個技術你今年標出去明年就要完成這四艘它不是很困難部長請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理處跟主席借一點時間這個也是有關福利的部分那可以看到我們在這個\n\n09:20.631 --> 09:29.710\n勞務承攬的這個我們看一下臨時人員在參謀本部我們編的預算一個人臨時人員一個人高達一個月高達\n\n09:31.135 --> 09:55.596\n十六萬多比市長還多他負責軍事行政我們看到下面那個表格他科研的一個月才兩萬多五十五個人編四百三十六萬平均一個人才兩萬多那上面那個一個人他是什麼樣的臨時人員一個人一個月可以領十六萬多那在下面一個就是環保業務的一個人也是一個月領六萬多\n\n09:57.837 --> 10:17.781\n我們不知道他是亂編還是這是要讓我們去審的這樣的預算嗎這部分時間因為時間不太夠所以這我們先提出來另外還有一個就是看到應該我想應該是聯俄的傳譯的部分吧應該傳譯英文\n\n10:21.280 --> 10:27.649\n一個月的薪資比一個次漲還要高一個月16萬多16萬多多資深你的臨時人員這個多資深我們下去再跟委員做一個報告\n\n10:37.023 --> 10:50.881\n因為我們看到下面軍醫局海軍司令部所有的單位每一個環保人員一個月才一萬多甚至比基本工資還不如可是其他的都很高還有六萬多的\n\n10:52.957 --> 11:20.800\n參謀本部的臨時人員環境的（拜委員是聯合次長有關於剛剛委員所提出來這個問題我們後面澄清清楚以後再跟委員做書面的報告我們現在也要提醒如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高而且你說資深傳譯這個我們給時間讓他們說明你們把它理清楚到時候審預算的時候或者跟委員都可以做交流跟溝通好不好\n\n11:22.361 --> 11:25.245\n再一個就是我們加班費的部分這個也是我們當時跟王朝偉其實我們在上一屆其實有提到上一屆還是這一屆所以剛剛委員那個問題我們回去再了解因為可能也許剛剛的訊息是有點我們再去查證一下好不好\n\n11:38.980 --> 11:42.102\n是你的預算書寫出來我們看到的就這樣讓你們查清楚以後再說可是我要再請教部長就這個112、113、114年度因為我們就加班費、夜點費的部分從60塊所要增加到100塊可是你看它最下面它112年度的金額113年度、114年度你從60塊變成100塊可是你的那個預算卻更低是什麼原因\n\n12:10.552 --> 12:15.076\n那你是跟我們之前的那個狀況是一樣就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎\n\n12:34.952 --> 12:40.756\n這我們會去檢討去做一個依註因為核定的時間是在8月中以後一個就是一定要能夠支應第二個預算編在哪裡到時候預算會議的時候來告訴你這個部分是我們已經對你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道最大的可能是這樣\n\n12:57.248 --> 13:02.113\n所以要怎麼做讓我們很迅速的讓我們知道這個結果是我們一定會找到這個預算的經費\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":3.172,"text":"主席麻煩請顧部長來部長請部長好部長我記得之前有詢問過快起專案的部分我想請教快起專案是執行哪一個什麼樣的內容他的預算有多少期程是多久"},{"start":23.892,"end":31.117,"text":"會計專案好像是列入機密是吧沒關係這個會計專案請部長回答好不好你們先在旁邊2024年3月已經"},{"start":36.965,"end":53.094,"text":"我要請部長回答我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的所以如果要在旁邊講然後等一下大概我們希望可以準備的更周全一點那在這會期專案雖然是機密可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報"},{"start":58.817,"end":83.277,"text":"2024年5月17號上報5月18號上報其實都有登過快起專案而且內容也非常的詳細包括他的預算金額執行的期程還有包括他的內容等等所以我想要請教部長您是不是知道快起專案執行的是什麼應該就是一個無人艇的一個他在騎乘多久"},{"start":84.167,"end":98.317,"text":"期程應該是113到114吧那預算金額大概多少預算的金額這應該這可以講嗎預算金額報紙我剛剛念了報紙通通寫了而且金額一致不差"},{"start":100.31,"end":120.089,"text":"所以我現在為什麼要特別這樣請教部長這個是因為我之前已經問過了所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象部長可以很清楚的知道可是因為我們之前有提過過去我們所有的委員國防外交的委員其實都可以拿到我們的"},{"start":120.589,"end":124.153,"text":"簡易本的機密的這個內容因為沒有人可以記得起來而且用的都是代號我們不知道他為什麼要用這樣的方式這樣大家要怎麼監督或者大家有什麼疑問的時候尤其像朝偉這一次在"},{"start":136.648,"end":139.391,"text":"我們提案的時間短短一個禮拜我們今天問完他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來我覺得預算要這麼高的情況之下是有點強人所難所以在這裡還是要特別提出雖然他列在機密裡面可是"},{"start":156.687,"end":173.939,"text":"今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長因為我記得上一次問過以後部長您說要下去檢討還要瞭解看看嘛那快起專案這個是委中科院研製的他主要就是遙控4艘攻擊無人艇"},{"start":175.44,"end":178.921,"text":"總金額8億1200萬其中載台部分2億5000多萬還有導控系統中科院執行大概會5億多因為扣掉的話載台部分我們一直說價格高的離譜部長您是不是在你了解以後你覺得有什麼樣要說明的嗎"},{"start":197.557,"end":225.452,"text":"他高達兩億五千七百萬這個在烏克蘭他已經有實戰經驗擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦他的造價才六百多萬甚至如果以他現在最新型的可以可能有逆中功能他是用橡膠材質的他的造價才兩百多萬可是我們光是載台就要六千四百萬我想要請教部長您了解以後你覺得這是合理的嗎"},{"start":226.577,"end":243.126,"text":"我的瞭解是說他實際建造的價格計算物條的比例跟這一個特標的公司為新加坡海軍成造的4艘的這個鋼訓艇是相似的那後續量產的階段的話我想中科院應該會持續來壓低造船的成本"},{"start":243.386,"end":263.384,"text":"這個沒有 量產的時候我們不知道你可以壓低多少可是現階段他沒有太大的一個難度的情況之下因為隆德也造過很多船艦啊他過去不是沒有經驗這一艘就要6400萬因為我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇就是它是自殺式的它就是要便宜"},{"start":264.705,"end":264.725,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":291.227,"end":296.748,"text":"委員因為它是原型它要包含它的設計費用在裡面你的設計費用院長它有什麼設計因為這個是一個全新的構計你告訴我它有什麼設計無人靶船包括你的永武專案裡面的無人靶船都已經曾經做過了我們的這種靶船我們台灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎"},{"start":318.512,"end":328.12,"text":"龍德、中信或者甚至台船他們造這種船會有很困難嗎可是你要造價是人家的八倍十倍這是非常離譜再加上這是載台的部分而已他全案高達八億多如果平均下來一台要兩億多而不是六千四百萬他兩億多裡面是什麼中科院"},{"start":339.349,"end":344.553,"text":"他裏面的導控系統過去我看他們一向因為也是報紙燈的就是他的跳屏式干擾衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識避障系統或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等這個都在我們過去的"},{"start":360.086,"end":371.564,"text":"所有的一些中科院的一個研發案裡面都已經有過技術或者已經都編過預算了這個我們甚至在這一次還編了5億多這是合理的嗎"},{"start":373.359,"end":391.88,"text":"委員因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術去整合整合到這個裡面來院長那是給不知道的人聽的你所謂的整合你的無人機怎麼整合的無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡今天你不僅造價非常的高昂因為它是很普通的一些船體而已"},{"start":393.061,"end":397.022,"text":"它是自殺式的攻擊你們給的資料全部都列在裡面的那個都是我們原來有的這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的再一次跟大家探討因為為什麼要在這裡說因為我們有很多的預算就像剛剛跟部長建議的如果可以希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算不要把那個預算過去"},{"start":420.367,"end":440.325,"text":"的慣例通通有給委員我不知道為什麼這一次沒有跟委員報告我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例不管媒體公開的程度是如何我剛剛就是在講說你剛剛比如說問到預算的部分我不想去回答的原因就是說大家是因為列入機密預算那"},{"start":440.785,"end":444.106,"text":"委員如果想要知道我們會親自到我們辦公室就每個案子跟我們做報告我們提的沒有機密的問題我現在說的是他現在載台他就是很普通的東西今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用而且我們自己也做過了比如說無人把船在永武專案裡面你就已經"},{"start":461.254,"end":491.254,"text":"． ． ． ．"},{"start":491.534,"end":507.082,"text":"因為他還有其他很多主要的功效像我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的部長你可以再更詳細的去了解這個狀況這個部分他如果要花這麼多錢我們要今天如果換算用那個600多萬算烏克蘭做200燒的時候他才多少12億我們如果做200燒用這樣的價格我們是200多億"},{"start":517.427,"end":531.373,"text":"如果我們要做這樣子的供給要編到百分之五GDP或者甚至百分之十他可以因為你可以這樣編這是我們要特別提出來主席不好意思我想我們量產階段一定會來壓低這個相關的人"},{"start":533.874,"end":538.316,"text":"你兩年就可以把它研製出來表示這個不是困難的一個技術你今年標出去明年就要完成這四艘它不是很困難部長請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理處跟主席借一點時間這個也是有關福利的部分那可以看到我們在這個"},{"start":560.631,"end":569.71,"text":"勞務承攬的這個我們看一下臨時人員在參謀本部我們編的預算一個人臨時人員一個人高達一個月高達"},{"start":571.135,"end":595.596,"text":"十六萬多比市長還多他負責軍事行政我們看到下面那個表格他科研的一個月才兩萬多五十五個人編四百三十六萬平均一個人才兩萬多那上面那個一個人他是什麼樣的臨時人員一個人一個月可以領十六萬多那在下面一個就是環保業務的一個人也是一個月領六萬多"},{"start":597.837,"end":617.781,"text":"我們不知道他是亂編還是這是要讓我們去審的這樣的預算嗎這部分時間因為時間不太夠所以這我們先提出來另外還有一個就是看到應該我想應該是聯俄的傳譯的部分吧應該傳譯英文"},{"start":621.28,"end":627.649,"text":"一個月的薪資比一個次漲還要高一個月16萬多16萬多多資深你的臨時人員這個多資深我們下去再跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":637.023,"end":650.881,"text":"因為我們看到下面軍醫局海軍司令部所有的單位每一個環保人員一個月才一萬多甚至比基本工資還不如可是其他的都很高還有六萬多的"},{"start":652.957,"end":680.8,"text":"參謀本部的臨時人員環境的（拜委員是聯合次長有關於剛剛委員所提出來這個問題我們後面澄清清楚以後再跟委員做書面的報告我們現在也要提醒如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高而且你說資深傳譯這個我們給時間讓他們說明你們把它理清楚到時候審預算的時候或者跟委員都可以做交流跟溝通好不好"},{"start":682.361,"end":685.245,"text":"再一個就是我們加班費的部分這個也是我們當時跟王朝偉其實我們在上一屆其實有提到上一屆還是這一屆所以剛剛委員那個問題我們回去再了解因為可能也許剛剛的訊息是有點我們再去查證一下好不好"},{"start":698.98,"end":702.102,"text":"是你的預算書寫出來我們看到的就這樣讓你們查清楚以後再說可是我要再請教部長就這個112、113、114年度因為我們就加班費、夜點費的部分從60塊所要增加到100塊可是你看它最下面它112年度的金額113年度、114年度你從60塊變成100塊可是你的那個預算卻更低是什麼原因"},{"start":730.552,"end":735.076,"text":"那你是跟我們之前的那個狀況是一樣就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎"},{"start":754.952,"end":760.756,"text":"這我們會去檢討去做一個依註因為核定的時間是在8月中以後一個就是一定要能夠支應第二個預算編在哪裡到時候預算會議的時候來告訴你這個部分是我們已經對你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道最大的可能是這樣"},{"start":777.248,"end":782.113,"text":"所以要怎麼做讓我們很迅速的讓我們知道這個結果是我們一定會找到這個預算的經費"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":346,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：來，部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，我記得之前有詢問過快奇專案的部分，我想請教快奇專案是執行什麼樣的內容、它的預算有多少、期程是多久？"],["顧部長立雄：快奇專案好像是列入機密……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，快奇專案請部長回答，好不好？你們先在旁邊。2024年3月已經……我要請部長回答，我們會特別這樣子一定是有用意的，所以如果要在旁邊講，等一下我們希望可以準備得更周全一點。","快奇專案雖然是機密，可是在2024年3月4號聯合報還有2024年4月27號自由時報、2024年5月17號上報、5月18號上報其實都有登過快奇專案，而且內容也非常的詳細，包括它的預算金額、執行的期程還有包括它的內容等等。所以我想要請教部長，您是不是知道快奇專案執行的是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：應該就是無人艇的一個……"],["馬委員文君：它的期程多久？"],["顧部長立雄：期程應該是113到114吧？"],["馬委員文君：它的預算金額大概多少？"],["顧部長立雄：預算的金額……這可以講嗎？"],["馬委員文君：預算金額在我剛剛唸的報紙通通寫了，而且金額一字不差。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣……"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在為什麼要特別請教部長，我之前已經問過了，所以也許在旁邊提示之下還有上次問過的印象，部長可以很清楚地知道，可是因為我們之前有提過，過去我們所有國防外交的委員，其實都可以拿到我們簡易本機密的內容，因為沒有人可以記得起來，而且你用的都是代號，我們不知道為什麼它要用這樣的方式，這樣大家要怎麼監督？或者當大家有什麼疑問的時候，尤其像召委這次給我們提案的時間其實只有短短一個禮拜，我們今天問完，他可能不到一個禮拜的時間就要寫出來，我覺得在預算又這麼高的情況之下，是有點強人所難啦，所以在這裡還是要特別提出。","雖然它列在機密裡面，可是今天我們就用媒體已經披露出來的來請教部長，因為我記得上次問過以後，部長說要下去檢討，還要瞭解看看嘛！快奇專案是委中科院研製的，主要就是4艘遙控攻擊無人艇，總金額大概八億一千兩百萬，其中載臺的部分兩億五千多萬，扣掉中科院執行的導控系統大概五億多。載臺部分，我們一直說它的價格高得離譜，部長，在您瞭解以後，你覺得有什麼要說明的嗎？高達兩億五千七百萬，這個在烏克蘭已經有實戰經驗，擊沉了俄羅斯的船艦，它的造價才六百多萬，甚至如果以它現在最新型的，可能有匿蹤功能喔，它是用橡膠材質的，造價才兩百多萬，可是我們光是載臺就要六千四百萬！我想要請教部長，你瞭解之後，你覺得這是合理的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我的瞭解它實際建造的價格、計算物調的比例，跟這一個得標公司為新加坡海軍承造4艘港巡艇是相似的，後續量產階段的話，我想中科院應該會持續來壓低成本。"],["馬委員文君：部長，量產的時候，我們不知道你可以壓低多少，可是現階段在它沒有太大難度的情況之下……因為龍德也造過很多船艦，過去不是沒有經驗，這一艘就要六千四百萬！我們為什麼要造無人機跟無人艇？因為它是自殺式的，就是要便宜！烏克蘭在作戰的時候甚至被打掉的高達70%以上，可是剩下的30%還可以發揮戰力，如果像我們這樣的造價，我們根本沒有辦法打，而且你做出來……我們本來是希望可以比反艦飛彈還要便宜的，結果你造出來可能都比它還貴，這樣是值得的嗎？我不曉得為什麼會那麼高，中科院院長要不要講一下？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，因為它是原型，它要包含設計費用在裡面，當然後面量產就會降低了。"],["馬委員文君：院長，它有什麼設計？"],["李院長世強：不是，因為這個是一個全新的構型。"],["馬委員文君：您告訴我它有什麼設計？包括你的勇武專案裡面的無人靶船都曾經做過了，這種靶船，我們臺灣過去不是最會造遊艇嗎？龍德、中信甚至台船，他們造這種船會很困難嗎？可是你的造價是人家的8倍、10倍，這非常離譜，這是載臺的部分而已，它全案高達八億多，如果平均下來一臺要兩億多，而不是六千四百萬耶！兩億多裡面是什麼？中科院裡面的導控系統，過去我看它每一項……因為也是報紙登的，它的跳頻式干擾、衛星導航或者紅外線感應進行辨識的避障系統，或者鎖定目標以後的終端導引，以及自動化執行精確攻擊目標等等，這個都在我們過去中科院的研發案裡面，都已經有過技術，或者已經都編過預算了，這個我們甚至在這一次還編了五億多，這是合理的嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，因為我們必須要把很多已經有的技術整合到這個裡面來，重點在整合……"],["馬委員文君：院長，那是給不知道的人聽的，你所謂的整合，你無人機怎麼整合的？無人機跟無人艇的差異在哪裡？今天你不僅造價非常的高昂，因為它是很普通的一些船體而已，是自殺式的攻擊，你們給的資料全部都列在裡面，那個都是我們原來有的，這個部分我們在預算審查的時候還會再詳細的跟大家探討。為什麼要在這裡說？因為我們有很多的預算，就像剛剛跟部長建議的，如果可以，希望讓大家可以更清楚的知道，或者應該要怎麼樣去看這個預算，不要把那個預算……過去的慣例通通有給委員，我不知道為什麼這次沒有。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想就以剛剛委員質詢的例子為例，不管媒體公開的程度是如何，我剛剛講比如問到預算的部分，我不想回答的原因就是因為列入機密預算，委員如果想要知道，我們會親自到委員辦公室，……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為這個……"],["顧部長立雄：就每個案子跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：反正我跟你講，我們提的沒有機密的問題，我現在說的是載臺是很普通的東西，今天人家都已經非常成熟的運用，而且我們自己也做過了，比如說無人靶船在勇武專案裡面就已經做過。而且裡面的內容，包括遠距遙控、預劃航路、即時視訊傳輸，我們中科院在官網上面都寫得非常清楚，這是我們非常成熟的一個技術門檻。你再把它做到別的地方的時候，還要重新編那麼高的預算，所以才要放在機密這樣子嗎？這個部分，我們後續要有一些時間，希望大家可以做更清楚的說明，或者在預算上面，你就應該要刪。另外……"],["顧部長立雄：因為它還有其他很多主要的工項……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，我剛剛唸的都是我們已經有的，部長，你可以再更詳細的去瞭解這個狀況，這個部分如果要花這麼多錢，我們今天如果用六百多萬換算，烏克蘭做200艘才多少？十二億。我們如果用這樣的價格做200艘，我們是兩百多億耶！如果我們做這樣子攻擊，要編到5%GDP或者甚至10%，因為你可以這樣編……這是我們要特別提出來。主席，不好意思……"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們以後量產，一定會來壓低這個相關的……"],["馬委員文君：你兩年就可以把它研製出來，表示這個不是困難的一個技術，你今年標出去，明年就要完成這四艘，它不是很困難。部長，請從這裡去理解這個預算的一個不合理之處啦！"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：跟主席借一點時間，這個也是有關福利的部分，可以看到在勞務承攬的部分，看一下我們編的預算，在參謀本部，臨時人員1個人1個月高達十六萬多，比次長還多耶！他負責軍事行政，我們看到下面那個表格，科研的1個月才兩萬多，55個人編四百三十六萬，平均1個人才兩萬多，而上面那一個人是什麼樣的臨時人員，1個人1個月可以領十六萬多？再下面，環保業務的，1個人也是1個月領六萬多，我不知道它是亂編，是要讓我們去審這樣的預算嗎？這部分時間因為時間不太夠，所以這個我們先提出來。另外還有一個，看到……"],["主席：讓他摘要回答啦！"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["顧部長立雄：我想應該是他們聯二傳譯的部分。"],["馬委員文君：傳譯？"],["顧部長立雄：英文的。"],["馬委員文君：1個月的薪資比一個次長還要高，1個月十六萬多？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是蠻資深的。"],["馬委員文君：十六萬多，有多資深？你的臨時人員有多資深？到時候把他公布出來，你這個傳譯人員……"],["顧部長立雄：我們下去再跟委員做一個報告。"],["馬委員文君：過去是這樣編嗎？我們看到下面的軍醫局、海軍司令部等所有單位，每一個環保人員1個月才一萬多，甚至比基本工資還不如，可是參謀本部環境的臨時人員都很高，還有六萬多？"],["謝次長日升：報告委員，我是聯二次長。有關剛剛委員所提出來這個問題，我們後面澄清清楚了以後再跟委員做書面的報告。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在也要提醒，如果你可以澄清清楚當然是最好，我不知道有什麼樣的臨時人員可以比次長還要高，而且你說資深傳譯，我們給時間讓他們說明。"],["主席：好，你們把它釐清楚，到時候審預算的時候，或者跟委員都可以交流跟溝通，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：好。再一個就是加班費的部分，這也是我們當時跟王召委，其實我們在上一屆還這一屆有提到……"],["主席：上上屆吧！"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛委員那個問題，我們回去再瞭解，可能剛剛的訊息是有點誤會，我們再去查證一下，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：因為是你的預算書寫出來，我們看到的就這樣啦，讓你們查清楚以後再說。可是我要再請教部長，112、113、114年度我們就加班費、夜點費的部分，從60塊說要增加到100塊，可是你看最下面112年度的金額、113年度、114年度，從60塊變成100塊，可是你的預算卻更低，是什麼原因？"],["主席：摘要就好，好不好？"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，有關值班費的部分從60調到100，我們預估年度內需要增加夜點費的金額大概要六千多萬，所以這部分我們是在我們的年度預算做一個檢討、調整。"],["馬委員文君：所以你明年沒有編？"],["謝局長其賢：因為核定的時候……"],["馬委員文君：那這跟我們之前的狀況是一樣，就是你讓大家看得到吃不到的意思這樣嗎？"],["謝局長其賢：沒有，這我們會去檢討，去做一個挹注，因為核定的時間是在8月中以後……"],["馬委員文君：主席，這個部分……"],["主席：這件事情，第一個，就是一定要能夠支應；第二個，預算編在哪裡，到時候預算會議的時候來告訴我們一下，好不好？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["主席：一定要看得到也吃得到啦！"],["馬委員文君：對，這個部分我們已經……你讓所有的國軍弟兄都已經知道，不然……"],["主席：不會，部長的承諾不會掉啦！"],["馬委員文君：最大的可能是這樣……所以要怎麼做，很迅速地讓我們知道這個結果。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們一定會找到挹注的經費來源，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝，承諾守住，以及預算編在哪裡？到時候我們可以看到啦，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：好，到時候給我們，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是沈伯洋委員，沈伯洋委員詢答結束後我們來處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-12","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分)\n（僅詢答）；二、審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於國防部主管非營業基金：\n（僅詢答）(一)作業基金：1、國軍生產及服務作業基金、2、國軍老舊眷村改建基金、3、國防\n醫學院軍事教育基金；(二)資本計畫基金─國軍營舍及設施改建基金","agenda_id":"1139702_00001"}}}