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\"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"傷\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 682.64, \"end\": 683.1, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 683.1, \"end\": 683.26, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 683.26, \"end\": 683.281, \"score\": 0.572}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,108 --> 00:00:02,128\n黃國昌議員\n\n2\n00:00:12,532 --> 00:00:34,194\n是我想速發部大家國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐騙的議題打詐的議題本期也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的這個APP那其中裡面我有看到一個統計啊我想這個APP已經上線一個多月了嘛大家都有通報大家都有這個統計相關資料其中詐騙媒介\n\n3\n00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:48,942\n就是本席跟國人大家所關心就是說到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊部長有沒有掌握詐騙媒介現在的平台裡面最多還是在臉書臉書那再來勒\n\n4\n00:00:51,570 --> 00:01:03,355\n再來就是應該就是就是說臉書以外就是LINE啊、Google啊、然後像TikTok您看一下你的詐騙媒介我拉30天的資料總共10萬筆將近11萬筆\n\n5\n00:01:07,202 --> 00:01:23,301\n六萬筆是臉書兩萬三千筆是IG、Instagram其實也是臉書的再來MetaMessage四千九百筆將近五千筆還有Meta的廣告聯播網一萬八千筆\n\n6\n00:01:24,142 --> 00:01:50,041\n所以其實光臉書的一個百分之九十、九十幾都是他們相關的系統真正你剛剛說講Google只有13311萬裡面只佔了133而Live只佔了681都是不到千位所以換言之九成都是臉書相關系統那既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了\n\n7\n00:01:51,718 --> 00:02:12,570\n那我們除了繼續給國人通報繼續被動的下架那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡臉書它可以賺那麼多錢它可以接受廣告沒有問題你要去做社群正常的廣告我們當然歡迎這個是正常的市場機制啊但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊\n\n8\n00:02:13,090 --> 00:02:36,166\n對所以報告委員所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐釋法裡面尤其關於這個這個廣告平台已經通過了上個會期已經通過了我現在叫7月16已經通過了7月12已經通過了沒錯所以我們現在到現在11月13所以我們四個月過去我們做了什麼事所以現在他們第一個他們要在台灣設華為代表跟落地10月30他們已經申請了\n\n9\n00:02:37,947 --> 00:03:04,721\n11月3日我們會公告就是這個這個我們這些支法這個什麼他們有件事一定要做就是廣告實名制就是說過去的剛剛講說什麼詐騙都是這個是本身上一次在同樣交通委員會的時候我就要求的嘛現在更有數據佐證的就是高達九成九成五以上我們臺灣的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的一個母公司出來所以Meta是我們最關心的那我們是在剛剛講就是我們已經跟Meta\n\n10\n00:03:05,501 --> 00:03:23,981\n所謂的喝咖啡包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論喝咖啡喝很多但是他還是知意妄為啊所以現在已經跟他講了那咖啡如果說喝咖啡真的不行那是不是可以請他喝禁酒沒有沒有禁酒如果不行的話請他喝罰酒罰酒沒錯罰酒就在1月初就開始要罰了明年1月對\n\n11\n00:03:24,582 --> 00:03:24,842\n委員會主席\n\n12\n00:03:43,995 --> 00:04:10,793\n拜託先道德勸說第二就是用法律來要求他要配合希望這樣的結果就是說我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物部長源頭管理才是重點不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有其實我們說用這個通報機制大家要再通報你已經看到要再通報那何不從源頭管理尤其是我們已經上線一個月了我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證驗證我們廣告來源詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡\n\n13\n00:04:13,835 --> 00:04:38,040\n那如果說您剛剛有提到是可以源頭管理的話那本席也想請教另外一個部分就是我也在不管是外環委員會、交通委員會到現在交通委員會Google上面我搜尋啊電子煙啊我不知道你有沒有搜尋過但是你只要搜尋電子煙電子煙現在是不合法的在台灣那結果我們搜尋反而它的官方網站持續在那邊\n\n14\n00:04:39,286 --> 00:05:01,644\n那衛福部居然跟我們講是說國民健康署跟我們講是說已經把後面有點TW的給下架了但是沒有啊但是重點是現在Google我相信所有的同仁你現在Google打開電子煙三個字一搜尋官方網站馬上出來而且製作的華麗精美程度甚至裡面還有衛教告訴你有多少口味多少等等的\n\n15\n00:05:02,324 --> 00:05:30,239\n那這難道不是違禁品可以讓我們大剌剌的再搜尋搜尋得到那速發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為我們基本上對這種廣告就是剛講這種廣告我們是有一個機制叫RPG是可以把它封網就是說天子解析啦是部長這件事情應該已經討論了因為他是一直自始至終都不合法對所以我們有在在這裡面再做一些剛講搜尋以後衛福部有沒有找你們討論過\n\n16\n00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:50,278\n因為我相信有這個技術有這個機制啊但是我不知道說後面誰有多深深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們我們那時候講說上個會期因為那個信私密影像什麼創意私房還是那個論壇一天就可以封網啦我就搜尋不到了\n\n17\n00:05:51,139 --> 00:06:07,829\n結果這一個議題我從未還委員會質詢衛福部長衛福部長說要找速發部討論沒下文教育部長沒下文那到現在速發部長速發部長我請教你說也可以封完我相信技術絕對做得到啊\n\n18\n00:06:08,189 --> 00:06:34,429\n但是我們不能隨便封他們要跟我們講所以不能隨便封他現在賣的是一個不合法的產品這個產品是在台灣不允許販賣的他就是一個非法的東西甚至為什麼我們講說他相關重要是因為他有可能會搭載毒品然後他可能會引誘青少年吸食止煙啊我們去便利商店買便利商店店員都還要看身份證\n\n19\n00:06:35,695 --> 00:07:02,806\n電子煙不用因為我網路購買不會檢查身份我寄送到便利商店貨到付款我去付款取貨也不會檢查身份那會不會反而是更嚴重對所以我們現在的機制是只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封我們就去封但是封網的決定是來自衛福部部長所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了就是我們的機制因為我們我們蘇花部要有法才能夠去封那問題這個法的\n\n20\n00:07:04,087 --> 00:07:05,388\n好很好來那我請教我們講到現在這樣子我\n\n21\n00:07:21,886 --> 00:07:41,233\n到目前為止聽起來我是肯定因為數位發展部是有這樣的工具所以有沒有任何人可以回答我過去這段時間我相信我們召委民進黨國民黨民眾黨大家都有問過啦衛福部有沒有來找我們數位發展部要來做封網衛福部有沒有來找數位發展部討論過應該要讓他下架關於電子煙有沒有目前有嗎\n\n22\n00:07:48,633 --> 00:08:13,081\n委員我大概回應一下那基本上委員垂詢的確實是一個問題那我們已經跟衛福部協調點滴那部分目前為止才有兩個機制一個就是如果是點滴要註冊的話我們就把相關資料移給衛福部有衛福部國民健康署去做採儲如果沒有這個資料的話我們就把它封掉那另外一個部分的話是平台的部分我們也積極的協調相關平台業者如果有這種電子菸的話也會做儲存\n\n23\n00:08:14,701 --> 00:08:14,821\n拜託委員\n\n24\n00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:45,339\n拜託委員根據我衛福部的資料Facebook目前的案件是最多跟詐騙一樣5916件拜託委員那個私下網站是307件您是?市院司司長\n\n25\n00:08:57,623 --> 00:09:18,315\n資源師牛信仁師長牛師長你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題我現在沒有在討論平台我們Google打開現在搜尋你不用任何的技術你不用任何的關鍵字你打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋到洋洋灑灑官方網站做的比誰都精美\n\n26\n00:09:19,943 --> 00:09:43,379\n那我現在問的是說過去剛剛部長已經講了嘛如果說衛福部因為法院在衛福部主管機關是衛福部如果衛福部要求速發部速發部可以執行封網的動作啊那所以我現在想要問的是那到底過去那麼多時間來是衛福部有要求速發部速發部沒有動作還是衛福部自始至終他身為主管機關就是沒有沒有沒有討論所以才能放任他們持續在那邊販售\n\n27\n00:09:44,700 --> 00:10:09,869\n委員現在在上次的教育委員會您也垂詢到這問題所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議那也提供請各部會提供資料給衛福部看我們能夠協助什麼那還要多久還要多久衛福部的討論那基本上現在是在比誰放水的比較多是不是還要多久還是給大家最後一段時間趕快喔要封了清倉大拍賣\n\n28\n00:10:14,741 --> 00:10:32,984\n部長,我說實在我很實在話講很持平的來說這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想但是如果說它真的是一個不合法的東西中華民國是個法治的國家我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售\n\n29\n00:10:35,246 --> 00:10:53,993\n如果說我們所有的部會都不作為你推我我推你其實這件事情我就看得很明顯就是互相的推卸責任啊衛福部說他沒有技術然後訴發部說我沒有法源然後教育部是說這個其實是社會有關我只要管教校園就好了但是校園裡面他又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園每一個部會都很重要每一個部會都很大\n\n30\n00:11:00,407 --> 00:11:23,281\n但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話我覺得這是國家的不幸我們會馬上再跟衛福部來對這個問題再做看怎麼樣進行讓他很快的能夠把它下架部長我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害了解謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2108\t2128\t黃國昌議員\n12532\t34194\t是 我想速發部大家國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐騙的議題打詐的議題本期也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的這個APP那其中裡面我有看到一個統計啊我想這個APP已經上線一個多月了嘛大家都有通報大家都有這個統計相關資料其中詐騙媒介\n35996\t48942\t就是本席跟國人大家所關心就是說到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊部長有沒有掌握詐騙媒介現在的平台裡面最多還是在臉書臉書那再來勒\n51570\t63355\t再來就是應該就是就是說臉書以外就是LINE啊、Google啊、然後像TikTok您看一下你的詐騙媒介我拉30天的資料總共10萬筆將近11萬筆\n67202\t83301\t六萬筆是臉書兩萬三千筆是IG、Instagram其實也是臉書的再來MetaMessage四千九百筆將近五千筆還有Meta的廣告聯播網一萬八千筆\n84142\t110041\t所以其實光臉書的一個百分之九十、九十幾都是他們相關的系統真正你剛剛說講Google只有13311萬裡面只佔了133而Live只佔了681都是不到千位所以換言之九成都是臉書相關系統那既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了\n111718\t132570\t那我們除了繼續給國人通報繼續被動的下架那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡臉書它可以賺那麼多錢它可以接受廣告沒有問題你要去做社群正常的廣告我們當然歡迎這個是正常的市場機制啊但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊\n133090\t156166\t對所以報告委員所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐釋法裡面尤其關於這個這個廣告平台已經通過了上個會期已經通過了我現在叫7月16已經通過了7月12已經通過了沒錯所以我們現在到現在11月13所以我們四個月過去我們做了什麼事所以現在他們第一個他們要在台灣設華為代表跟落地10月30他們已經申請了\n157947\t184721\t11月3日我們會公告就是這個這個我們這些支法這個什麼他們有件事一定要做就是廣告實名制就是說過去的剛剛講說什麼詐騙都是這個是本身上一次在同樣交通委員會的時候我就要求的嘛現在更有數據佐證的就是高達九成九成五以上我們臺灣的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的一個母公司出來所以Meta是我們最關心的那我們是在剛剛講就是我們已經跟Meta\n185501\t203981\t所謂的喝咖啡包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論喝咖啡喝很多但是他還是知意妄為啊所以現在已經跟他講了那咖啡如果說喝咖啡真的不行那是不是可以請他喝禁酒沒有沒有禁酒如果不行的話請他喝罰酒罰酒沒錯罰酒就在1月初就開始要罰了明年1月對\n204582\t204842\t委員會主席\n223995\t250793\t拜託先道德勸說第二就是用法律來要求他要配合希望這樣的結果就是說我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物部長源頭管理才是重點不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有其實我們說用這個通報機制大家要再通報你已經看到要再通報那何不從源頭管理尤其是我們已經上線一個月了我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證驗證我們廣告來源詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡\n253835\t278040\t那如果說您剛剛有提到是可以源頭管理的話那本席也想請教另外一個部分就是我也在不管是外環委員會、交通委員會到現在交通委員會Google上面我搜尋啊電子煙啊我不知道你有沒有搜尋過但是你只要搜尋電子煙電子煙現在是不合法的在台灣那結果我們搜尋反而它的官方網站持續在那邊\n279286\t301644\t那衛福部居然跟我們講是說國民健康署跟我們講是說已經把後面有點TW的給下架了但是沒有啊但是重點是現在Google我相信所有的同仁你現在Google打開電子煙三個字一搜尋官方網站馬上出來而且製作的華麗精美程度甚至裡面還有衛教告訴你有多少口味多少等等的\n302324\t330239\t那這難道不是違禁品可以讓我們大剌剌的再搜尋搜尋得到那速發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為我們基本上對這種廣告就是剛講這種廣告我們是有一個機制叫RPG是可以把它封網就是說天子解析啦是部長這件事情應該已經討論了因為他是一直自始至終都不合法對所以我們有在在這裡面再做一些剛講搜尋以後衛福部有沒有找你們討論過\n331640\t350278\t因為我相信有這個技術有這個機制啊但是我不知道說後面誰有多深深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們我們那時候講說上個會期因為那個信私密影像什麼創意私房還是那個論壇一天就可以封網啦我就搜尋不到了\n351139\t367829\t結果這一個議題我從未還委員會質詢衛福部長衛福部長說要找速發部討論沒下文教育部長沒下文那到現在速發部長速發部長我請教你說也可以封完我相信技術絕對做得到啊\n368189\t394429\t但是我們不能隨便封他們要跟我們講所以不能隨便封他現在賣的是一個不合法的產品這個產品是在台灣不允許販賣的他就是一個非法的東西甚至為什麼我們講說他相關重要是因為他有可能會搭載毒品然後他可能會引誘青少年吸食止煙啊我們去便利商店買便利商店店員都還要看身份證\n395695\t422806\t電子煙不用因為我網路購買不會檢查身份我寄送到便利商店貨到付款我去付款取貨也不會檢查身份那會不會反而是更嚴重對所以我們現在的機制是只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封我們就去封但是封網的決定是來自衛福部部長所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了就是我們的機制因為我們我們蘇花部要有法才能夠去封那問題這個法的\n424087\t425388\t好很好來那我請教我們講到現在這樣子我\n441886\t461233\t到目前為止聽起來我是肯定因為數位發展部是有這樣的工具所以有沒有任何人可以回答我過去這段時間我相信我們召委民進黨國民黨民眾黨大家都有問過啦衛福部有沒有來找我們數位發展部要來做封網衛福部有沒有來找數位發展部討論過應該要讓他下架關於電子煙有沒有目前有嗎\n468633\t493081\t委員我大概回應一下那基本上委員垂詢的確實是一個問題那我們已經跟衛福部協調點滴那部分目前為止才有兩個機制一個就是如果是點滴要註冊的話我們就把相關資料移給衛福部有衛福部國民健康署去做採儲如果沒有這個資料的話我們就把它封掉那另外一個部分的話是平台的部分我們也積極的協調相關平台業者如果有這種電子菸的話也會做儲存\n494701\t494821\t拜託委員\n516676\t525339\t拜託委員根據我衛福部的資料Facebook目前的案件是最多跟詐騙一樣5916件拜託委員那個私下網站是307件您是?市院司司長\n537623\t558315\t資源師牛信仁師長牛師長你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題我現在沒有在討論平台我們Google打開現在搜尋你不用任何的技術你不用任何的關鍵字你打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋到洋洋灑灑官方網站做的比誰都精美\n559943\t583379\t那我現在問的是說過去剛剛部長已經講了嘛如果說衛福部因為法院在衛福部主管機關是衛福部如果衛福部要求速發部速發部可以執行封網的動作啊那所以我現在想要問的是那到底過去那麼多時間來是衛福部有要求速發部速發部沒有動作還是衛福部自始至終他身為主管機關就是沒有沒有沒有討論所以才能放任他們持續在那邊販售\n584700\t609869\t委員現在在上次的教育委員會您也垂詢到這問題所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議那也提供請各部會提供資料給衛福部看我們能夠協助什麼那還要多久還要多久衛福部的討論那基本上現在是在比誰放水的比較多是不是還要多久還是給大家最後一段時間趕快喔要封了清倉大拍賣\n614741\t632984\t部長,我說實在我很實在話講很持平的來說這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想但是如果說它真的是一個不合法的東西中華民國是個法治的國家我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售\n635246\t653993\t如果說我們所有的部會都不作為你推我我推你其實這件事情我就看得很明顯就是互相的推卸責任啊衛福部說他沒有技術然後訴發部說我沒有法源然後教育部是說這個其實是社會有關我只要管教校園就好了但是校園裡面他又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園每一個部會都很重要每一個部會都很大\n660407\t683281\t但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話我覺得這是國家的不幸我們會馬上再跟衛福部來對這個問題再做看怎麼樣進行讓他很快的能夠把它下架部長我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害了解謝謝\n","txt":"黃國昌議員\n是 我想速發部大家國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐騙的議題打詐的議題本期也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的這個APP那其中裡面我有看到一個統計啊我想這個APP已經上線一個多月了嘛大家都有通報大家都有這個統計相關資料其中詐騙媒介\n就是本席跟國人大家所關心就是說到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊部長有沒有掌握詐騙媒介現在的平台裡面最多還是在臉書臉書那再來勒\n再來就是應該就是就是說臉書以外就是LINE啊、Google啊、然後像TikTok您看一下你的詐騙媒介我拉30天的資料總共10萬筆將近11萬筆\n六萬筆是臉書兩萬三千筆是IG、Instagram其實也是臉書的再來MetaMessage四千九百筆將近五千筆還有Meta的廣告聯播網一萬八千筆\n所以其實光臉書的一個百分之九十、九十幾都是他們相關的系統真正你剛剛說講Google只有13311萬裡面只佔了133而Live只佔了681都是不到千位所以換言之九成都是臉書相關系統那既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了\n那我們除了繼續給國人通報繼續被動的下架那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡臉書它可以賺那麼多錢它可以接受廣告沒有問題你要去做社群正常的廣告我們當然歡迎這個是正常的市場機制啊但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊\n對所以報告委員所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐釋法裡面尤其關於這個這個廣告平台已經通過了上個會期已經通過了我現在叫7月16已經通過了7月12已經通過了沒錯所以我們現在到現在11月13所以我們四個月過去我們做了什麼事所以現在他們第一個他們要在台灣設華為代表跟落地10月30他們已經申請了\n11月3日我們會公告就是這個這個我們這些支法這個什麼他們有件事一定要做就是廣告實名制就是說過去的剛剛講說什麼詐騙都是這個是本身上一次在同樣交通委員會的時候我就要求的嘛現在更有數據佐證的就是高達九成九成五以上我們臺灣的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的一個母公司出來所以Meta是我們最關心的那我們是在剛剛講就是我們已經跟Meta\n所謂的喝咖啡包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論喝咖啡喝很多但是他還是知意妄為啊所以現在已經跟他講了那咖啡如果說喝咖啡真的不行那是不是可以請他喝禁酒沒有沒有禁酒如果不行的話請他喝罰酒罰酒沒錯罰酒就在1月初就開始要罰了明年1月對\n委員會主席\n拜託先道德勸說第二就是用法律來要求他要配合希望這樣的結果就是說我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物部長源頭管理才是重點不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有其實我們說用這個通報機制大家要再通報你已經看到要再通報那何不從源頭管理尤其是我們已經上線一個月了我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證驗證我們廣告來源詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡\n那如果說您剛剛有提到是可以源頭管理的話那本席也想請教另外一個部分就是我也在不管是外環委員會、交通委員會到現在交通委員會Google上面我搜尋啊電子煙啊我不知道你有沒有搜尋過但是你只要搜尋電子煙電子煙現在是不合法的在台灣那結果我們搜尋反而它的官方網站持續在那邊\n那衛福部居然跟我們講是說國民健康署跟我們講是說已經把後面有點TW的給下架了但是沒有啊但是重點是現在Google我相信所有的同仁你現在Google打開電子煙三個字一搜尋官方網站馬上出來而且製作的華麗精美程度甚至裡面還有衛教告訴你有多少口味多少等等的\n那這難道不是違禁品可以讓我們大剌剌的再搜尋搜尋得到那速發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為我們基本上對這種廣告就是剛講這種廣告我們是有一個機制叫RPG是可以把它封網就是說天子解析啦是部長這件事情應該已經討論了因為他是一直自始至終都不合法對所以我們有在在這裡面再做一些剛講搜尋以後衛福部有沒有找你們討論過\n因為我相信有這個技術有這個機制啊但是我不知道說後面誰有多深深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們我們那時候講說上個會期因為那個信私密影像什麼創意私房還是那個論壇一天就可以封網啦我就搜尋不到了\n結果這一個議題我從未還委員會質詢衛福部長衛福部長說要找速發部討論沒下文教育部長沒下文那到現在速發部長速發部長我請教你說也可以封完我相信技術絕對做得到啊\n但是我們不能隨便封他們要跟我們講所以不能隨便封他現在賣的是一個不合法的產品這個產品是在台灣不允許販賣的他就是一個非法的東西甚至為什麼我們講說他相關重要是因為他有可能會搭載毒品然後他可能會引誘青少年吸食止煙啊我們去便利商店買便利商店店員都還要看身份證\n電子煙不用因為我網路購買不會檢查身份我寄送到便利商店貨到付款我去付款取貨也不會檢查身份那會不會反而是更嚴重對所以我們現在的機制是只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封我們就去封但是封網的決定是來自衛福部部長所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了就是我們的機制因為我們我們蘇花部要有法才能夠去封那問題這個法的\n好很好來那我請教我們講到現在這樣子我\n到目前為止聽起來我是肯定因為數位發展部是有這樣的工具所以有沒有任何人可以回答我過去這段時間我相信我們召委民進黨國民黨民眾黨大家都有問過啦衛福部有沒有來找我們數位發展部要來做封網衛福部有沒有來找數位發展部討論過應該要讓他下架關於電子煙有沒有目前有嗎\n委員我大概回應一下那基本上委員垂詢的確實是一個問題那我們已經跟衛福部協調點滴那部分目前為止才有兩個機制一個就是如果是點滴要註冊的話我們就把相關資料移給衛福部有衛福部國民健康署去做採儲如果沒有這個資料的話我們就把它封掉那另外一個部分的話是平台的部分我們也積極的協調相關平台業者如果有這種電子菸的話也會做儲存\n拜託委員\n拜託委員根據我衛福部的資料Facebook目前的案件是最多跟詐騙一樣5916件拜託委員那個私下網站是307件您是?市院司司長\n資源師牛信仁師長牛師長你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題我現在沒有在討論平台我們Google打開現在搜尋你不用任何的技術你不用任何的關鍵字你打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋到洋洋灑灑官方網站做的比誰都精美\n那我現在問的是說過去剛剛部長已經講了嘛如果說衛福部因為法院在衛福部主管機關是衛福部如果衛福部要求速發部速發部可以執行封網的動作啊那所以我現在想要問的是那到底過去那麼多時間來是衛福部有要求速發部速發部沒有動作還是衛福部自始至終他身為主管機關就是沒有沒有沒有討論所以才能放任他們持續在那邊販售\n委員現在在上次的教育委員會您也垂詢到這問題所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議那也提供請各部會提供資料給衛福部看我們能夠協助什麼那還要多久還要多久衛福部的討論那基本上現在是在比誰放水的比較多是不是還要多久還是給大家最後一段時間趕快喔要封了清倉大拍賣\n部長,我說實在我很實在話講很持平的來說這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想但是如果說它真的是一個不合法的東西中華民國是個法治的國家我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售\n如果說我們所有的部會都不作為你推我我推你其實這件事情我就看得很明顯就是互相的推卸責任啊衛福部說他沒有技術然後訴發部說我沒有法源然後教育部是說這個其實是社會有關我只要管教校園就好了但是校園裡面他又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園每一個部會都很重要每一個部會都很大\n但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話我覺得這是國家的不幸我們會馬上再跟衛福部來對這個問題再做看怎麼樣進行讓他很快的能夠把它下架部長我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害了解謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.108 --> 00:02.128\n黃國昌議員\n\n00:12.532 --> 00:34.194\n是我想速發部大家國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐騙的議題打詐的議題本期也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的這個APP那其中裡面我有看到一個統計啊我想這個APP已經上線一個多月了嘛大家都有通報大家都有這個統計相關資料其中詐騙媒介\n\n00:35.996 --> 00:48.942\n就是本席跟國人大家所關心就是說到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊部長有沒有掌握詐騙媒介現在的平台裡面最多還是在臉書臉書那再來勒\n\n00:51.570 --> 01:03.355\n再來就是應該就是就是說臉書以外就是LINE啊、Google啊、然後像TikTok您看一下你的詐騙媒介我拉30天的資料總共10萬筆將近11萬筆\n\n01:07.202 --> 01:23.301\n六萬筆是臉書兩萬三千筆是IG、Instagram其實也是臉書的再來MetaMessage四千九百筆將近五千筆還有Meta的廣告聯播網一萬八千筆\n\n01:24.142 --> 01:50.041\n所以其實光臉書的一個百分之九十、九十幾都是他們相關的系統真正你剛剛說講Google只有13311萬裡面只佔了133而Live只佔了681都是不到千位所以換言之九成都是臉書相關系統那既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了\n\n01:51.718 --> 02:12.570\n那我們除了繼續給國人通報繼續被動的下架那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡臉書它可以賺那麼多錢它可以接受廣告沒有問題你要去做社群正常的廣告我們當然歡迎這個是正常的市場機制啊但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊\n\n02:13.090 --> 02:36.166\n對所以報告委員所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐釋法裡面尤其關於這個這個廣告平台已經通過了上個會期已經通過了我現在叫7月16已經通過了7月12已經通過了沒錯所以我們現在到現在11月13所以我們四個月過去我們做了什麼事所以現在他們第一個他們要在台灣設華為代表跟落地10月30他們已經申請了\n\n02:37.947 --> 03:04.721\n11月3日我們會公告就是這個這個我們這些支法這個什麼他們有件事一定要做就是廣告實名制就是說過去的剛剛講說什麼詐騙都是這個是本身上一次在同樣交通委員會的時候我就要求的嘛現在更有數據佐證的就是高達九成九成五以上我們臺灣的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的一個母公司出來所以Meta是我們最關心的那我們是在剛剛講就是我們已經跟Meta\n\n03:05.501 --> 03:23.981\n所謂的喝咖啡包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論喝咖啡喝很多但是他還是知意妄為啊所以現在已經跟他講了那咖啡如果說喝咖啡真的不行那是不是可以請他喝禁酒沒有沒有禁酒如果不行的話請他喝罰酒罰酒沒錯罰酒就在1月初就開始要罰了明年1月對\n\n03:24.582 --> 03:24.842\n委員會主席\n\n03:43.995 --> 04:10.793\n拜託先道德勸說第二就是用法律來要求他要配合希望這樣的結果就是說我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物部長源頭管理才是重點不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有其實我們說用這個通報機制大家要再通報你已經看到要再通報那何不從源頭管理尤其是我們已經上線一個月了我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證驗證我們廣告來源詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡\n\n04:13.835 --> 04:38.040\n那如果說您剛剛有提到是可以源頭管理的話那本席也想請教另外一個部分就是我也在不管是外環委員會、交通委員會到現在交通委員會Google上面我搜尋啊電子煙啊我不知道你有沒有搜尋過但是你只要搜尋電子煙電子煙現在是不合法的在台灣那結果我們搜尋反而它的官方網站持續在那邊\n\n04:39.286 --> 05:01.644\n那衛福部居然跟我們講是說國民健康署跟我們講是說已經把後面有點TW的給下架了但是沒有啊但是重點是現在Google我相信所有的同仁你現在Google打開電子煙三個字一搜尋官方網站馬上出來而且製作的華麗精美程度甚至裡面還有衛教告訴你有多少口味多少等等的\n\n05:02.324 --> 05:30.239\n那這難道不是違禁品可以讓我們大剌剌的再搜尋搜尋得到那速發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為我們基本上對這種廣告就是剛講這種廣告我們是有一個機制叫RPG是可以把它封網就是說天子解析啦是部長這件事情應該已經討論了因為他是一直自始至終都不合法對所以我們有在在這裡面再做一些剛講搜尋以後衛福部有沒有找你們討論過\n\n05:31.640 --> 05:50.278\n因為我相信有這個技術有這個機制啊但是我不知道說後面誰有多深深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們我們那時候講說上個會期因為那個信私密影像什麼創意私房還是那個論壇一天就可以封網啦我就搜尋不到了\n\n05:51.139 --> 06:07.829\n結果這一個議題我從未還委員會質詢衛福部長衛福部長說要找速發部討論沒下文教育部長沒下文那到現在速發部長速發部長我請教你說也可以封完我相信技術絕對做得到啊\n\n06:08.189 --> 06:34.429\n但是我們不能隨便封他們要跟我們講所以不能隨便封他現在賣的是一個不合法的產品這個產品是在台灣不允許販賣的他就是一個非法的東西甚至為什麼我們講說他相關重要是因為他有可能會搭載毒品然後他可能會引誘青少年吸食止煙啊我們去便利商店買便利商店店員都還要看身份證\n\n06:35.695 --> 07:02.806\n電子煙不用因為我網路購買不會檢查身份我寄送到便利商店貨到付款我去付款取貨也不會檢查身份那會不會反而是更嚴重對所以我們現在的機制是只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封我們就去封但是封網的決定是來自衛福部部長所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了就是我們的機制因為我們我們蘇花部要有法才能夠去封那問題這個法的\n\n07:04.087 --> 07:05.388\n好很好來那我請教我們講到現在這樣子我\n\n07:21.886 --> 07:41.233\n到目前為止聽起來我是肯定因為數位發展部是有這樣的工具所以有沒有任何人可以回答我過去這段時間我相信我們召委民進黨國民黨民眾黨大家都有問過啦衛福部有沒有來找我們數位發展部要來做封網衛福部有沒有來找數位發展部討論過應該要讓他下架關於電子煙有沒有目前有嗎\n\n07:48.633 --> 08:13.081\n委員我大概回應一下那基本上委員垂詢的確實是一個問題那我們已經跟衛福部協調點滴那部分目前為止才有兩個機制一個就是如果是點滴要註冊的話我們就把相關資料移給衛福部有衛福部國民健康署去做採儲如果沒有這個資料的話我們就把它封掉那另外一個部分的話是平台的部分我們也積極的協調相關平台業者如果有這種電子菸的話也會做儲存\n\n08:14.701 --> 08:14.821\n拜託委員\n\n08:36.676 --> 08:45.339\n拜託委員根據我衛福部的資料Facebook目前的案件是最多跟詐騙一樣5916件拜託委員那個私下網站是307件您是?市院司司長\n\n08:57.623 --> 09:18.315\n資源師牛信仁師長牛師長你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題我現在沒有在討論平台我們Google打開現在搜尋你不用任何的技術你不用任何的關鍵字你打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋到洋洋灑灑官方網站做的比誰都精美\n\n09:19.943 --> 09:43.379\n那我現在問的是說過去剛剛部長已經講了嘛如果說衛福部因為法院在衛福部主管機關是衛福部如果衛福部要求速發部速發部可以執行封網的動作啊那所以我現在想要問的是那到底過去那麼多時間來是衛福部有要求速發部速發部沒有動作還是衛福部自始至終他身為主管機關就是沒有沒有沒有討論所以才能放任他們持續在那邊販售\n\n09:44.700 --> 10:09.869\n委員現在在上次的教育委員會您也垂詢到這問題所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議那也提供請各部會提供資料給衛福部看我們能夠協助什麼那還要多久還要多久衛福部的討論那基本上現在是在比誰放水的比較多是不是還要多久還是給大家最後一段時間趕快喔要封了清倉大拍賣\n\n10:14.741 --> 10:32.984\n部長,我說實在我很實在話講很持平的來說這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想但是如果說它真的是一個不合法的東西中華民國是個法治的國家我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售\n\n10:35.246 --> 10:53.993\n如果說我們所有的部會都不作為你推我我推你其實這件事情我就看得很明顯就是互相的推卸責任啊衛福部說他沒有技術然後訴發部說我沒有法源然後教育部是說這個其實是社會有關我只要管教校園就好了但是校園裡面他又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園每一個部會都很重要每一個部會都很大\n\n11:00.407 --> 11:23.281\n但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話我覺得這是國家的不幸我們會馬上再跟衛福部來對這個問題再做看怎麼樣進行讓他很快的能夠把它下架部長我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害了解謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.108,"end":2.128,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":12.532,"end":34.194,"text":"是 我想速發部大家國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐騙的議題打詐的議題本期也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的這個APP那其中裡面我有看到一個統計啊我想這個APP已經上線一個多月了嘛大家都有通報大家都有這個統計相關資料其中詐騙媒介"},{"start":35.996,"end":48.942,"text":"就是本席跟國人大家所關心就是說到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊部長有沒有掌握詐騙媒介現在的平台裡面最多還是在臉書臉書那再來勒"},{"start":51.57,"end":63.355,"text":"再來就是應該就是就是說臉書以外就是LINE啊、Google啊、然後像TikTok您看一下你的詐騙媒介我拉30天的資料總共10萬筆將近11萬筆"},{"start":67.202,"end":83.301,"text":"六萬筆是臉書兩萬三千筆是IG、Instagram其實也是臉書的再來MetaMessage四千九百筆將近五千筆還有Meta的廣告聯播網一萬八千筆"},{"start":84.142,"end":110.041,"text":"所以其實光臉書的一個百分之九十、九十幾都是他們相關的系統真正你剛剛說講Google只有13311萬裡面只佔了133而Live只佔了681都是不到千位所以換言之九成都是臉書相關系統那既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了"},{"start":111.718,"end":132.57,"text":"那我們除了繼續給國人通報繼續被動的下架那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡臉書它可以賺那麼多錢它可以接受廣告沒有問題你要去做社群正常的廣告我們當然歡迎這個是正常的市場機制啊但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊"},{"start":133.09,"end":156.166,"text":"對所以報告委員所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐釋法裡面尤其關於這個這個廣告平台已經通過了上個會期已經通過了我現在叫7月16已經通過了7月12已經通過了沒錯所以我們現在到現在11月13所以我們四個月過去我們做了什麼事所以現在他們第一個他們要在台灣設華為代表跟落地10月30他們已經申請了"},{"start":157.947,"end":184.721,"text":"11月3日我們會公告就是這個這個我們這些支法這個什麼他們有件事一定要做就是廣告實名制就是說過去的剛剛講說什麼詐騙都是這個是本身上一次在同樣交通委員會的時候我就要求的嘛現在更有數據佐證的就是高達九成九成五以上我們臺灣的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的一個母公司出來所以Meta是我們最關心的那我們是在剛剛講就是我們已經跟Meta"},{"start":185.501,"end":203.981,"text":"所謂的喝咖啡包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論喝咖啡喝很多但是他還是知意妄為啊所以現在已經跟他講了那咖啡如果說喝咖啡真的不行那是不是可以請他喝禁酒沒有沒有禁酒如果不行的話請他喝罰酒罰酒沒錯罰酒就在1月初就開始要罰了明年1月對"},{"start":204.582,"end":204.842,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":223.995,"end":250.793,"text":"拜託先道德勸說第二就是用法律來要求他要配合希望這樣的結果就是說我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物部長源頭管理才是重點不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有其實我們說用這個通報機制大家要再通報你已經看到要再通報那何不從源頭管理尤其是我們已經上線一個月了我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證驗證我們廣告來源詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡"},{"start":253.835,"end":278.04,"text":"那如果說您剛剛有提到是可以源頭管理的話那本席也想請教另外一個部分就是我也在不管是外環委員會、交通委員會到現在交通委員會Google上面我搜尋啊電子煙啊我不知道你有沒有搜尋過但是你只要搜尋電子煙電子煙現在是不合法的在台灣那結果我們搜尋反而它的官方網站持續在那邊"},{"start":279.286,"end":301.644,"text":"那衛福部居然跟我們講是說國民健康署跟我們講是說已經把後面有點TW的給下架了但是沒有啊但是重點是現在Google我相信所有的同仁你現在Google打開電子煙三個字一搜尋官方網站馬上出來而且製作的華麗精美程度甚至裡面還有衛教告訴你有多少口味多少等等的"},{"start":302.324,"end":330.239,"text":"那這難道不是違禁品可以讓我們大剌剌的再搜尋搜尋得到那速發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為我們基本上對這種廣告就是剛講這種廣告我們是有一個機制叫RPG是可以把它封網就是說天子解析啦是部長這件事情應該已經討論了因為他是一直自始至終都不合法對所以我們有在在這裡面再做一些剛講搜尋以後衛福部有沒有找你們討論過"},{"start":331.64,"end":350.278,"text":"因為我相信有這個技術有這個機制啊但是我不知道說後面誰有多深深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們我們那時候講說上個會期因為那個信私密影像什麼創意私房還是那個論壇一天就可以封網啦我就搜尋不到了"},{"start":351.139,"end":367.829,"text":"結果這一個議題我從未還委員會質詢衛福部長衛福部長說要找速發部討論沒下文教育部長沒下文那到現在速發部長速發部長我請教你說也可以封完我相信技術絕對做得到啊"},{"start":368.189,"end":394.429,"text":"但是我們不能隨便封他們要跟我們講所以不能隨便封他現在賣的是一個不合法的產品這個產品是在台灣不允許販賣的他就是一個非法的東西甚至為什麼我們講說他相關重要是因為他有可能會搭載毒品然後他可能會引誘青少年吸食止煙啊我們去便利商店買便利商店店員都還要看身份證"},{"start":395.695,"end":422.806,"text":"電子煙不用因為我網路購買不會檢查身份我寄送到便利商店貨到付款我去付款取貨也不會檢查身份那會不會反而是更嚴重對所以我們現在的機制是只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封我們就去封但是封網的決定是來自衛福部部長所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了就是我們的機制因為我們我們蘇花部要有法才能夠去封那問題這個法的"},{"start":424.087,"end":425.388,"text":"好很好來那我請教我們講到現在這樣子我"},{"start":441.886,"end":461.233,"text":"到目前為止聽起來我是肯定因為數位發展部是有這樣的工具所以有沒有任何人可以回答我過去這段時間我相信我們召委民進黨國民黨民眾黨大家都有問過啦衛福部有沒有來找我們數位發展部要來做封網衛福部有沒有來找數位發展部討論過應該要讓他下架關於電子煙有沒有目前有嗎"},{"start":468.633,"end":493.081,"text":"委員我大概回應一下那基本上委員垂詢的確實是一個問題那我們已經跟衛福部協調點滴那部分目前為止才有兩個機制一個就是如果是點滴要註冊的話我們就把相關資料移給衛福部有衛福部國民健康署去做採儲如果沒有這個資料的話我們就把它封掉那另外一個部分的話是平台的部分我們也積極的協調相關平台業者如果有這種電子菸的話也會做儲存"},{"start":494.701,"end":494.821,"text":"拜託委員"},{"start":516.676,"end":525.339,"text":"拜託委員根據我衛福部的資料Facebook目前的案件是最多跟詐騙一樣5916件拜託委員那個私下網站是307件您是?市院司司長"},{"start":537.623,"end":558.315,"text":"資源師牛信仁師長牛師長你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題我現在沒有在討論平台我們Google打開現在搜尋你不用任何的技術你不用任何的關鍵字你打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋到洋洋灑灑官方網站做的比誰都精美"},{"start":559.943,"end":583.379,"text":"那我現在問的是說過去剛剛部長已經講了嘛如果說衛福部因為法院在衛福部主管機關是衛福部如果衛福部要求速發部速發部可以執行封網的動作啊那所以我現在想要問的是那到底過去那麼多時間來是衛福部有要求速發部速發部沒有動作還是衛福部自始至終他身為主管機關就是沒有沒有沒有討論所以才能放任他們持續在那邊販售"},{"start":584.7,"end":609.869,"text":"委員現在在上次的教育委員會您也垂詢到這問題所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議那也提供請各部會提供資料給衛福部看我們能夠協助什麼那還要多久還要多久衛福部的討論那基本上現在是在比誰放水的比較多是不是還要多久還是給大家最後一段時間趕快喔要封了清倉大拍賣"},{"start":614.741,"end":632.984,"text":"部長,我說實在我很實在話講很持平的來說這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想但是如果說它真的是一個不合法的東西中華民國是個法治的國家我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售"},{"start":635.246,"end":653.993,"text":"如果說我們所有的部會都不作為你推我我推你其實這件事情我就看得很明顯就是互相的推卸責任啊衛福部說他沒有技術然後訴發部說我沒有法源然後教育部是說這個其實是社會有關我只要管教校園就好了但是校園裡面他又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園每一個部會都很重要每一個部會都很大"},{"start":660.407,"end":683.281,"text":"但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話我覺得這是國家的不幸我們會馬上再跟衛福部來對這個問題再做看怎麼樣進行讓他很快的能夠把它下架部長我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害了解謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時32分）黃部長，關於數發部，大家、國人很關心跟重視的當然都是打詐的議題，本席也下載了網路詐騙通報查詢網的app，裡面我有看到一個統計，我想這個app也已經上線一個多月了，大家都有通報，也都有相關的統計資料，其中詐騙媒介，就是本席跟國人大家所關心的，到底這些廣告都在哪裡做詐騙的、哪裡讓民眾獲得這個資訊，部長有沒有掌握？就是詐騙媒介。"],["黃部長彥男：現在的平臺裡面最多的還是在臉書。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來呢？"],["黃部長彥男：臉書以外就是LINE、Google，然後像TikTok……"],["洪委員孟楷：您看一下，這上面的詐騙媒介，我拉了30天的資料來看，總共有10萬筆，將近11萬筆，其中6萬筆是臉書，2萬3,000筆是IG（Instagram），IG其實也是臉書的。"],["黃部長彥男：對，都是臉書的。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，Meta Messager有4,900筆，將近5,000筆，還有Meta的廣告聯播網1萬8,000筆，所以光臉書就有百分之九十幾都是他們相關的系統，其他像你剛剛所講的Google只有133筆，11萬裡面只占了133筆；而LINE只有了681筆，都不到千位數，換言之，九成都是Meta相關系統，既然已經知道大宗的部分在那邊了，我們除了繼續給國人通報，繼續被動的下架，那我們主動積極的作為在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：臉書可以賺那麼多錢，可以接受廣告，沒有問題，你要去做社群正常廣告，我們當然歡迎，這是正常市場機制，但是不能給詐騙集團投放廣告啊！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，所以我們現在為什麼要通過打詐四法，這裡面尤其是關於網路廣告平臺……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，上個會期已經通過了，7月12日已經通過了……"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，所以我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到現在11月13日，4個月過去了，我們做了什麼事？"],["黃部長彥男：第一個，現在他們要在臺灣設法律代表跟落地，他們在10月30日已經申請了；11月30日我們會公告相關的子法，而他們有一件事一定要做，就是廣告實名制，就是剛剛說的過去什麼詐騙……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席上一次在交通委員會的時候，同樣就有要求的嘛！現在更有數據佐證，就是我們臺灣有高達九成、九成五以上的詐騙樣態類型都是從他們的母公司出來的嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯！所以Meta是我們最關心的，剛剛有說了，我們已經跟Meta喝很多所謂的喝咖啡，包括他們派美國的技術專家來跟我們討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：它喝咖啡喝很多，但是它還是恣意妄為啊！"],["黃部長彥男：所以現在已經跟它講……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果喝咖啡真的不行，是不是可以請它喝敬酒？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有！沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：敬酒如果不行的話，請它喝罰酒！"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，罰酒，1月初就要開始罰了。"],["洪委員孟楷：明年1月？"],["黃部長彥男：對！現在是這樣，我們的罰則是，第一個，它要廣告實名制，如果不配合，我們就可以連續罰，然後每次可以從250萬開始，罰到1億都可以，所以這個金額可以滿高的，也就是希望用這樣的一個法來做處理，當然第一個是先道德勸說，第二個就是用法律來要求它配合，而希望的結果就是，我們再也不會看到這種所謂假公眾人物的廣告。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，源頭管理才是重點。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要累壞我們第一線的警務同仁或是累壞我們所有相關人員，已經有這個通報機制，你已經看到要通報了，那何不從源頭管理？尤其是我們已經上線一個月了，我覺得用你的這個數字就很清楚明白的認證、驗證我們詐騙廣告來源到底在哪裡。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，您剛剛有提到，如果可以源頭管理的話，本席也想請教另外一個部分，就是我在不管是衛環委員會、教育委員會到現在交通委員會，我在Google上面搜尋「電子煙」，我不知道你有沒有搜尋過，電子煙現在在臺灣是不合法的，但是你只要搜尋「電子煙」，結果我們發現，反而它的官方網站還持續在那邊，衛福部國民健康署居然跟我們說，已經把後面有「.tw」的給下架了，沒有啊！但重點是，現在所有的同仁，若打開Google搜尋「電子煙」三個字，它的官方網站馬上出來，而且製作得華麗精美，甚至裡面還有衛教，告訴你有多少口味等等的，這難道不是違禁品嗎？可以讓我們大剌剌地搜尋且搜尋得到？數發部到底有什麼樣的因應作為？"],["黃部長彥男：我們基本上對於這種廣告，就是剛才講的，我們是有一個機制，叫做RPG，是可以把它封網，就是停止解析、類封網……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這件事情應該已經討論了，因為這自始至終都不合法。"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以我們有在這裡面做一些處理，像剛講的，在搜尋以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：衛福部有沒有找你們討論過？因為我相信是有這個技術、有這個機制，但是我不知道後面的水有多深，深到就是沒有一個部會敢動他們……"],["黃部長彥男：所以衛福部如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：上個會期，關於性私密影像，像創意私房還是什麼論壇的，一天就可以封網，我就搜尋不到了，結果這一個議題，我從衛環委員會質詢衛福部長，衛福部長說要找數發部討論，沒下文；問教育部長，沒下文；到現在問數發部長，你說也可以封網，我相信技術上絕對做得到。"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是我們不能隨便封。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能隨便封，但它現在賣的是一個不合法的產品，這個產品在臺灣是不允許販賣的，所以它就是一個非法的東西，甚至為什麼我們說它相當重要，因為它有可能會搭載毒品，然後可能會引誘青少年吸食，像我們去便利商店買紙菸，便利商店店員都還要看身分證，但電子煙不用，因為網路購買不會檢查身分，寄送到便利商店，貨到付款，我去付款取貨也不會檢查身分，會不會反而變成更嚴重？"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以我們現在的機制是，只要衛福部通知我們哪些網頁要封，我們就去封，但是封網的決定是來自衛福部。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，所以現在這樣又是互推皮球了。"],["黃部長彥男：這就是我們的機制，因為我們數發部要有法才能夠去封，問題是這個法的的主管機關是在衛福部，我們不能夠隨便決定就封網，所以還要由執法單位來要求我們封，我們就封，我們是有這個機制，但是我們不能自己主動，因為這個要有法的依據。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，很好，我們講到現在這樣，到目前為止聽起來我是肯定的，因為數發部是有這樣的工具，所以有沒有任何人可以回答我，過去這段時間，我相信我們召委，民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨大家都有問過，衛福部有沒有來找數發部要求做封網？衛福部有沒有找數發部討論過應該要讓它下架？"],["黃部長彥男：關於電子煙的部分嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，我大概回應一下，基本上，委員垂詢的確實是一個問題，我們已經跟衛福部協調「.tw」的部分，目前為止採兩個機制，一個就是如果是「.tw」註冊的話，我們就把相關資料移給衛福部，由衛福部國民健康署去做裁處，如果沒有這個資料的話，我們就把它封掉。另外一個部分是平臺的部分，我們也積極協調相關的平臺業者，如果有這種電子煙的話也會去做處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在沒有講平臺，現在他們不用平臺……"],["牛司長信仁：有！"],["洪委員孟楷：他們現在神通廣大到設立自己的官網，連平臺都不需要……"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，我跟您……"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是他們厲害跟讓我覺得不可思議的地方，就是橫跨衛福部、數發部等那麼多的部會，結果我們沒有辦法針對一個違禁品來做嚇阻。"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，根據衛福部的資料，Facebook目前的案件是最多，跟詐騙一樣，五千九百……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在沒有講Facebook，不是，你完全沒有聽懂，對不起，您是……"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，那個自架網站是307件……"],["洪委員孟楷：您是？"],["牛司長信仁：資源司司長。"],["洪委員孟楷：資源司牛信仁司長？"],["牛司長信仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：牛司長，你完全沒有聽懂本席的問題，我現在沒有在討論平臺，我們把Google打開來搜尋，不用任何的技術，不用任何的關鍵字，只要打「電子煙」三個字就可以搜尋到，洋洋灑灑，官方網站做得比誰都精美，我現在問的是說，剛剛部長已經講了嘛，因為法源在衛福部，主管機關是衛福部，如果衛福部要求數發部，數發部可以執行封網的動作，所以我現在想要問的是，到底過去那麼多時間以來，是衛福部有要求數發部而數發部沒有動作，還是衛福部自始至終身為主管機關但就是沒有討論，所以才放任他們持續在那邊販售？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，上次在教育委員會您也垂詢到這個問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：是！"],["牛司長信仁：所以衛福部現在正在召開跨部會的協調會議，也請各部會提供資料給衛福部，看我們能夠協助什麼。"],["洪委員孟楷：那還要多久？還要多久？"],["牛司長信仁：這個部分還看衛福部的討論，基本上我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是在比誰放水的比較多，是不是？還要多久？還是給大家最後一段時間，趕快喔，要封了，清倉大拍賣！部長，說實在的，我很實在的講、很持平的來說，這背後利益有多龐大我都不敢想，但是如果它真的是一個不合法的東西，中華民國是個法治的國家，我們不應該放任不合法的東西持續的販售……"],["黃部長彥男：完全同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們所有的部會都不作為，你推我、我推你，其實這件事情我就看得很明顯，就是互相的推卸責任。衛福部說沒有技術，數發部說沒有法源，然後教育部說這個其實跟社會有關，它只要管好校園就好了，但是又沒有辦法阻止外面的東西進入到校園，你們每一個部會都很重要，每個部會都很大，但是每一個部會看到這樣的問題都持續放任的話，我覺得這是國家的不幸。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會馬上再跟衛福部針對這個問題看怎麼樣進行，很快的能夠把它下架。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我希望我下次質詢的時候不要再有這樣的議題……"],["黃部長彥男：OK，好。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這個議題確實真的會讓我們國家的年輕朋友受到傷害。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在現場。","接下來請許智傑委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-9","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","游顥","何欣純","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","賴士葆","黃國昌","吳春城","林月琴","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳培瑜"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算","agenda_id":"1139801_00010"}}}