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00:00:52,389\n其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制\n\n4\n00:00:53,655 --> 00:01:15,558\n所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分\n\n5\n00:01:16,458 --> 00:01:17,979\n三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算\n\n6\n00:01:33,146 --> 00:01:49,794\n那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分辨。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是一份核定計畫。\n\n7\n00:01:50,114 --> 00:02:14,754\n好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎\n\n8\n00:02:15,765 --> 00:02:39,221\n跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列\n\n9\n00:02:40,202 --> 00:03:02,971\n那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。\n\n10\n00:03:04,051 --> 00:03:19,500\n部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪啊\n\n11\n00:03:20,348 --> 00:03:34,164\n其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個講這個97頁的事情。好,沒關係,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要。好,今天有一個\n\n12\n00:03:35,405 --> 00:03:45,632\n無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸\n\n13\n00:04:03,405 --> 00:04:13,601\n你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量\n\n14\n00:04:14,864 --> 00:04:18,247\n對我們的那個無人機的部分你看一下你的無人機上面你還分5筆喔不只是無人機分5筆上面還有個救災機器人一個機器人是1000多萬\n\n15\n00:04:42,571 --> 00:04:44,498\n然後你買了7句、5句、5句\n\n16\n00:04:47,733 --> 00:05:16,271\n請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害\n\n17\n00:05:17,091 --> 00:05:34,439\n所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?關於113年前還是有無人機這部分也都是有然後沒有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入那麼在未來5年裡面我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資\n\n18\n00:05:35,740 --> 00:05:49,827\n那國際上大概是類似機器犬這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元\n\n19\n00:05:53,109 --> 00:06:19,497\n其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情\n\n20\n00:06:20,694 --> 00:06:21,594\n沒有沒有部長你回答好了對\n\n21\n00:06:48,104 --> 00:07:16,549\n我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情\n\n22\n00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:19,531\nbicyC.\n\n23\n00:07:19,531 --> 00:07:32,099\n因為這部分其實在整個國軍他在協助救災這部分不管是毒化災的這些訓練也好或者是這些對於人員的這個講習也好我們會在這邊來支應這方面的問題這邊的經費\n\n24\n00:07:34,762 --> 00:07:51,298\n我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府也希望你可以告訴我請問我們現在\n\n25\n00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,543\n政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔\n\n26\n00:08:20,458 --> 00:08:24,955\n請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?\n\n27\n00:08:26,445 --> 00:08:53,558\n跟委員報告,我們剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提。那麼內政部消防署有41億。這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的。有些他購買,有些是補助地方購買。他們來執行。可是有環境部出錢,寫計畫。不是,是計畫我們會整之後抱怨。然後分項核定之後,分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面。那剛剛九十幾億,那這是我們環境部主管,沒問題。\n\n28\n00:08:54,198 --> 00:09:10,965\n所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎這部分的話是交往署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是\n\n29\n00:09:24,656 --> 00:09:27,858\n這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼\n\n30\n00:09:52,792 --> 00:09:55,490\n然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量\n\n31\n00:09:56,808 --> 00:10:22,029\n這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。\n\n32\n00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:50,996\n可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全的就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌\n\n33\n00:10:52,376 --> 00:11:20,238\n那我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多\n\n34\n00:11:21,159 --> 00:11:49,620\n對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案,後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後,其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強。那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下,您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?\n\n35\n00:11:51,773 --> 00:12:17,247\n這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個像核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市構置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告\n\n36\n00:12:18,824 --> 00:12:39,280\n護長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我們會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5452\t11083\t謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長\n15121\t43862\t陳委員好部長早安部長因為我們現在是要討論明年度的預算所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提這麼大的一個金額\n45581\t52389\t其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制\n53655\t75558\t所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分\n76458\t77979\t三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算\n93146\t109794\t那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分辨。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是一份核定計畫。\n110114\t134754\t好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎\n135765\t159221\t跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列\n160202\t182971\t那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。\n184051\t199500\t部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪啊\n200348\t214164\t其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個講這個97頁的事情。好,沒關係,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要。好,今天有一個\n215405\t225632\t無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸\n243405\t253601\t你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量\n254864\t258247\t對我們的那個無人機的部分你看一下你的無人機上面你還分5筆喔不只是無人機分5筆上面還有個救災機器人一個機器人是1000多萬\n282571\t284498\t然後你買了7句、5句、5句\n287733\t316271\t請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害\n317091\t334439\t所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?關於113年前還是有無人機這部分也都是有然後沒有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入那麼在未來5年裡面我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資\n335740\t349827\t那國際上大概是類似機器犬這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元\n353109\t379497\t其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情\n380694\t381594\t沒有沒有部長你回答好了對\n408104\t436549\t我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情\n437850\t439531\tbicyC.\n439531\t452099\t因為這部分其實在整個國軍他在協助救災這部分不管是毒化災的這些訓練也好或者是這些對於人員的這個講習也好我們會在這邊來支應這方面的問題這邊的經費\n454762\t471298\t我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府也希望你可以告訴我請問我們現在\n473240\t478543\t政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔\n500458\t504955\t請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?\n506445\t533558\t跟委員報告,我們剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提。那麼內政部消防署有41億。這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的。有些他購買,有些是補助地方購買。他們來執行。可是有環境部出錢,寫計畫。不是,是計畫我們會整之後抱怨。然後分項核定之後,分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面。那剛剛九十幾億,那這是我們環境部主管,沒問題。\n534198\t550965\t所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎這部分的話是交往署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是\n552329\t564326\t゚≥≥\n564656\t567858\t這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼\n592792\t595490\t然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量\n596808\t622029\t這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。\n622810\t650996\t可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全的就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌\n652376\t680238\t那我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多\n681159\t709620\t對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案,後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後,其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強。那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下,您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?\n711773\t737247\t這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個像核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市構置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告\n738824\t759280\t護長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我們會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長\n陳委員好部長早安部長因為我們現在是要討論明年度的預算所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提這麼大的一個金額\n其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制\n所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分\n三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算\n那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分辨。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是一份核定計畫。\n好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎\n跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列\n那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。\n部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪啊\n其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個講這個97頁的事情。好,沒關係,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要。好,今天有一個\n無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸\n你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量\n對我們的那個無人機的部分你看一下你的無人機上面你還分5筆喔不只是無人機分5筆上面還有個救災機器人一個機器人是1000多萬\n然後你買了7句、5句、5句\n請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害\n所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?關於113年前還是有無人機這部分也都是有然後沒有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入那麼在未來5年裡面我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資\n那國際上大概是類似機器犬這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元\n其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情\n沒有沒有部長你回答好了對\n我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情\nbicyC.\n因為這部分其實在整個國軍他在協助救災這部分不管是毒化災的這些訓練也好或者是這些對於人員的這個講習也好我們會在這邊來支應這方面的問題這邊的經費\n我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府也希望你可以告訴我請問我們現在\n政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔\n請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?\n跟委員報告,我們剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提。那麼內政部消防署有41億。這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的。有些他購買,有些是補助地方購買。他們來執行。可是有環境部出錢,寫計畫。不是,是計畫我們會整之後抱怨。然後分項核定之後,分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面。那剛剛九十幾億,那這是我們環境部主管,沒問題。\n所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎這部分的話是交往署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是\n゚≥≥\n這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼\n然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量\n這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。\n可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全的就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌\n那我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多\n對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案,後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後,其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強。那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下,您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?\n這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個像核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市構置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告\n護長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我們會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.452 --> 00:11.083\n謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長\n\n00:15.121 --> 00:43.862\n陳委員好部長早安部長因為我們現在是要討論明年度的預算所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提這麼大的一個金額\n\n00:45.581 --> 00:52.389\n其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制\n\n00:53.655 --> 01:15.558\n所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分\n\n01:16.458 --> 01:17.979\n三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算\n\n01:33.146 --> 01:49.794\n那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分辨。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是一份核定計畫。\n\n01:50.114 --> 02:14.754\n好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎\n\n02:15.765 --> 02:39.221\n跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列\n\n02:40.202 --> 03:02.971\n那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。\n\n03:04.051 --> 03:19.500\n部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪啊\n\n03:20.348 --> 03:34.164\n其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個講這個97頁的事情。好,沒關係,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要。好,今天有一個\n\n03:35.405 --> 03:45.632\n無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸\n\n04:03.405 --> 04:13.601\n你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量\n\n04:14.864 --> 04:18.247\n對我們的那個無人機的部分你看一下你的無人機上面你還分5筆喔不只是無人機分5筆上面還有個救災機器人一個機器人是1000多萬\n\n04:42.571 --> 04:44.498\n然後你買了7句、5句、5句\n\n04:47.733 --> 05:16.271\n請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害\n\n05:17.091 --> 05:34.439\n所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?關於113年前還是有無人機這部分也都是有然後沒有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入那麼在未來5年裡面我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資\n\n05:35.740 --> 05:49.827\n那國際上大概是類似機器犬這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元\n\n05:53.109 --> 06:19.497\n其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情\n\n06:20.694 --> 06:21.594\n沒有沒有部長你回答好了對\n\n06:48.104 --> 07:16.549\n我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情\n\n07:17.850 --> 07:19.531\nbicyC.\n\n07:19.531 --> 07:32.099\n因為這部分其實在整個國軍他在協助救災這部分不管是毒化災的這些訓練也好或者是這些對於人員的這個講習也好我們會在這邊來支應這方面的問題這邊的經費\n\n07:34.762 --> 07:51.298\n我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府也希望你可以告訴我請問我們現在\n\n07:53.240 --> 07:58.543\n政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔\n\n08:20.458 --> 08:24.955\n請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?\n\n08:26.445 --> 08:53.558\n跟委員報告,我們剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提。那麼內政部消防署有41億。這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的。有些他購買,有些是補助地方購買。他們來執行。可是有環境部出錢,寫計畫。不是,是計畫我們會整之後抱怨。然後分項核定之後,分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面。那剛剛九十幾億,那這是我們環境部主管,沒問題。\n\n08:54.198 --> 09:10.965\n所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎這部分的話是交往署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是\n\n09:24.656 --> 09:27.858\n這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼\n\n09:52.792 --> 09:55.490\n然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量\n\n09:56.808 --> 10:22.029\n這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。\n\n10:22.810 --> 10:50.996\n可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全的就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌\n\n10:52.376 --> 11:20.238\n那我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多\n\n11:21.159 --> 11:49.620\n對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案,後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後,其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強。那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下,您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?\n\n11:51.773 --> 12:17.247\n這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個像核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市構置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告\n\n12:18.824 --> 12:39.280\n護長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我們會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.452,"end":11.083,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長"},{"start":15.121,"end":43.862,"text":"陳委員好部長早安部長因為我們現在是要討論明年度的預算所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提這麼大的一個金額"},{"start":45.581,"end":52.389,"text":"其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制"},{"start":53.655,"end":75.558,"text":"所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分"},{"start":76.458,"end":77.979,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":93.146,"end":109.794,"text":"那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分辨。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是一份核定計畫。"},{"start":110.114,"end":134.754,"text":"好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎"},{"start":135.765,"end":159.221,"text":"跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列"},{"start":160.202,"end":182.971,"text":"那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。"},{"start":184.051,"end":199.5,"text":"部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪啊"},{"start":200.348,"end":214.164,"text":"其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個講這個97頁的事情。好,沒關係,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要。好,今天有一個"},{"start":215.405,"end":225.632,"text":"無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸"},{"start":243.405,"end":253.601,"text":"你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量"},{"start":254.864,"end":258.247,"text":"對我們的那個無人機的部分你看一下你的無人機上面你還分5筆喔不只是無人機分5筆上面還有個救災機器人一個機器人是1000多萬"},{"start":282.571,"end":284.498,"text":"然後你買了7句、5句、5句"},{"start":287.733,"end":316.271,"text":"請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害"},{"start":317.091,"end":334.439,"text":"所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?關於113年前還是有無人機這部分也都是有然後沒有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入那麼在未來5年裡面我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資"},{"start":335.74,"end":349.827,"text":"那國際上大概是類似機器犬這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元"},{"start":353.109,"end":379.497,"text":"其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情"},{"start":380.694,"end":381.594,"text":"沒有沒有部長你回答好了對"},{"start":408.104,"end":436.549,"text":"我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情"},{"start":437.85,"end":439.531,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":439.531,"end":452.099,"text":"因為這部分其實在整個國軍他在協助救災這部分不管是毒化災的這些訓練也好或者是這些對於人員的這個講習也好我們會在這邊來支應這方面的問題這邊的經費"},{"start":454.762,"end":471.298,"text":"我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府也希望你可以告訴我請問我們現在"},{"start":473.24,"end":478.543,"text":"政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔"},{"start":500.458,"end":504.955,"text":"請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?"},{"start":506.445,"end":533.558,"text":"跟委員報告,我們剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提。那麼內政部消防署有41億。這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的。有些他購買,有些是補助地方購買。他們來執行。可是有環境部出錢,寫計畫。不是,是計畫我們會整之後抱怨。然後分項核定之後,分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面。那剛剛九十幾億,那這是我們環境部主管,沒問題。"},{"start":534.198,"end":550.965,"text":"所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎這部分的話是交往署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是"},{"start":552.329,"end":564.326,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":564.656,"end":567.858,"text":"這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼"},{"start":592.792,"end":595.49,"text":"然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量"},{"start":596.808,"end":622.029,"text":"這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。"},{"start":622.81,"end":650.996,"text":"可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全的就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌"},{"start":652.376,"end":680.238,"text":"那我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多"},{"start":681.159,"end":709.62,"text":"對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案,後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後,其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強。那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下,您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?"},{"start":711.773,"end":737.247,"text":"這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個像核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市構置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告"},{"start":738.824,"end":759.28,"text":"護長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我們會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時41分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席，我也要請環境部部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早安。部長，因為我們現在是要討論明年度的預算，所以我想請教一下彭部長，你知道環境部明年會開始執行一項專案，大概是5年的專案，叫做「建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫」，總共經費大概97億元，您知道這個計畫嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是今天的業務報告卻隻字未提，這麼大的一個金額。"],["彭部長啓明：其實是有在我們未來要工作的項目裡面，但是細節沒有特別提到太多，因為時間的限制。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你知道為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加，因此你們需要編列一個5年97億的預算嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：知道，例如PFAS的問題等等，我們希望更主動地來解決，所以這個經費也爭取了很久，是不是請我們謝署長簡單地回答一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：署長，可不可以30秒講完？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，這是一個5年計畫，總共大概有157億，跨了包括內政部、國防部、衛福部、經濟部等，屬於我們本部預算有九十六億多……"],["陳委員菁徽：97億嘛！"],["謝署長燕儒：九十七億多，對。分別是化學署、大氣司，還有國環院等相關的計畫，從流向追蹤、災害防救等等來分別編列。"],["陳委員菁徽：就是這一本？"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：這在你們的網站上都是公開透明的資訊？"],["謝署長燕儒：公開的，對，因為這是院核定的計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做，你的專案計畫裡面寫到因為國軍訓練薄弱、訓練打折，幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主，所以你們要協助提升國軍訓練量能及成效，又說國軍裝備老了、舊了，所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，根據災害防救法，其實如果有發生毒化災的整個防救計畫裡面，不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助，目前國軍的量能部分都在我們的災害防救計畫裡面，因為國軍的經費其實是屬於戰備方面，所以以往這部分的經費是由我們環境部門來編列。"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列？"],["謝署長燕儒：都有。"],["陳委員菁徽：114年以後突然需要5年的計畫？"],["謝署長燕儒：前一期的計畫我們也有納進來，但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少，所以國軍只有一部分，也是由我們這邊來協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你還是回來好了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高，大概是六千四百七十多億，我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工？那你分工分了這麼大一塊，你的業務報告卻隻字未提，這件事情非常的奇怪。"],["彭部長啓明：其實簡報是有，我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這97億的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係，我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下。你說這件事情很重要，好，今天有一個救災用空拍無人機組，你把它分在5個不同的頁數，一頁是360萬買4臺；一頁是1,170萬買13臺；810萬買9臺；2,520萬買28臺；最後1,620萬買18臺，你分成5個頁面，總共花了6,480萬大肆購買下來，換算一臺居然要90萬，你們是買什麼特別的規格、什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性，需要買到一臺90萬，還買了非常大的批量？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，其實應該不會那麼多，因為我們是有3個，北、中、南……"],["陳委員菁徽：我有附頁數給你，你可以回去翻一下這一本。"],["謝署長燕儒：好，我們再把它仔細看一下，不過依法……"],["陳委員菁徽：你就是有買這麼多。"],["謝署長燕儒：對，我們無人機的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：你看一下你的無人機上面還分5筆，不只是無人機分5筆，上面還有個救災機器人，一個機器人是一千多萬，然後你分別買了7具、5具、5具，請問到底是什麼狀況會需要編這個計畫買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我有看過我們的毒化災總隊，像昨天在桃園環科工業區排放那個氣體，其實就需要像這樣的空拍機，那個是特殊的，不是一般的空拍機。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害，但是114年之後，你擔心這五年可能會有重大化學災害，所以編列這樣子的預算嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，113年前還是有，無人機這部分也都是有，然後我們也有少部分的偵檢機器人的研發或購入，在未來五年裡面，我們在科技防災這一部分會加強投資，國際上大概是類似機器犬這種都有。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得環境部的業務非常重要，但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁，你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5,000萬元，其中包括空氣污染防制基金1億5,000萬元、土壤及地下水污染整治基金2億5,000萬元，還有環境教育基金1億5,000萬元，你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了，還有多餘的錢，你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備，你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，其實我們跟行政院提報計畫的時候，對於工作事項行政院也請我們檢討屬於我們自己經費部分的負擔，那麼在這三項基金裡面，像土污基金的部分，我們會再補助地方政府，還有流布計畫，就是環境流布計畫，河川、底泥這邊我們會來做，然後在教育宣導的部分，我們會用環境教育……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有、沒有，部長，你來回答好了。"],["彭部長啓明：其實這個因為……"],["陳委員菁徽：我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛，我是在問你，你的基金為什麼要撥5億5,000萬來籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們化學署是全臺灣最專業的化學物質管理，那國軍有他的化學物質項目，他也會來支援我們，所以這個經費是一起來做這件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是它跟前面對不起來，你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情？"],["謝署長燕儒：因為這個部分其實在整個國軍在協助救災這一部分，不管是毒化災這些訓練也好，或者是對於人員的講習也好，我們會在這邊來支應這方面的經費。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我會再去查這個經費的細項。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，我們可以到委員那邊做說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，從114年開始，上面寫你要協助地方政府，雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府，也希望你可以告訴我，現在政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策，為什麼我們需要買到4臺核生化車輛，一臺三千多萬？另外，我們還要買化學災害處理車輛，一臺也是三千多萬，整個加起來買了13臺，花了3億9,000萬，然後核生化災害處理車輛花了一億多，而且是協助地方政府，是給地方政府用的喔！請問地方政府的環境部相關人員會用這些車輛嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，我剛剛講這個計畫是跨部會提出，內政部消防署有41億，這個經費是內政部消防署執行的，有些他購買，有些是補助地方購買，他們來執行……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是由環境部出錢、寫計畫？"],["謝署長燕儒：不是，是計畫經我們彙整之後報院，然後分項核定之後分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面，那剛剛九十幾億是我們環境部主管，沒問題，這一部分是在……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實核生化災害處理車輛，還有化學災害處理車輛嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：這部分的話是消防署他們去規劃，但資訊上，我們是可以把它彙整過來了解。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們協助的部分是？"],["謝署長燕儒：這部分都是他們執行，我們就把整個計畫執行的管考部分，我們會把它彙整過來。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，但是我都是從你的報告裡面抓出來的，還是說這個報告不是你寫的？"],["謝署長燕儒：這個報告是院核定的計畫，是我們主政的。"],["彭部長啓明：院核定的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個報告下面掛的是環境部喔！"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：下面掛的就是你的名字，你在上面寫到這個97億的專案內容是要縮減後續增援部隊整備時間，這是你寫的，這是掛名你的報告，我也想問什麼叫作後續的增援部隊？然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量？"],["謝署長燕儒：這部分文字內容是國防部提供的啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：國防部提供給你，你把它貼到環境部的報告上？"],["謝署長燕儒：不是，因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整，內容有涉及部會文字的部分是由各部會寫出來經過院審查之後核定完，那核定本上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去，不過因為我們是主政部會，所以我們是這樣寫。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是你是主責，你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧？"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：你掛你的名字，掛你的5年計畫，然後你說內容都是別人寫的，也是別人在主責的，這樣對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員，這個是整個毒化災，是我們化學署在統籌的，就很像說未來的資源循環、循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理，所以化學署是走得比較快，把各個部會毒化災的部分由我們這邊來統籌。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我也想知道為什麼113年以前毒化災沒有需要這麼多，包括增援部隊，包括達成作戰任務，覺得以前都只有原則性的學習，為什麼突然今年會有這些東西？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，因為化學署成立是105年底，當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來，所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的，只是工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，那為什麼這麼多，你可以說明嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：因為事實上，從107年的敬鵬案，後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後，其實我們發現在部會的統合跟科技防災的部分要持續去加強，我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以在非核家園的政府政策下，您又把這些核生化災害車輛加入這個計畫裡面的原因是什麼呢？"],["謝署長燕儒：核生化的部分，消防署在處理核生化災害時第一線都會到消防單位來，所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市購置核生化的處理車，這部分還是由內政部他們來執行。"],["陳委員菁徽：要問內政部？你們的計畫但是要問內政部？"],["謝署長燕儒：不是，我們可以把這個資料蒐集起來，再跟委員做報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。部長，我還是希望，這麼大的一筆預算，如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話，好像很不負責任，而且是掛你的名字。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，有啦，我們……"],["陳委員菁徽：裡面的金額很多都還對不起來，所以後續我還會再繼續跟您請教。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，我們會依照委員的指教，再提供相關的數據跟資料，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}