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763.37, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 763.37, \"end\": 763.39, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 763.39, \"end\": 763.511, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 763.511, \"end\": 763.531, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,365 --> 00:00:08,668\n好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫\n\n2\n00:00:22,509 --> 00:00:39,762\n國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。這是你力行性的業務。我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:41,703 --> 00:01:04,342\n過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好\n\n4\n00:01:04,802 --> 00:01:14,308\n然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕\n\n5\n00:01:32,331 --> 00:01:55,060\n這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣\n\n6\n00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:23,667\n這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會在監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要\n\n7\n00:02:24,307 --> 00:02:29,310\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管\n\n8\n00:02:53,223 --> 00:03:15,482\n好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法\n\n9\n00:03:16,483 --> 00:03:37,956\n怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。\n\n10\n00:03:38,336 --> 00:03:38,896\n因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。\n\n11\n00:03:56,822 --> 00:04:20,897\n連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊\n\n12\n00:04:22,381 --> 00:04:22,702\n報告員我們部內其實已經\n\n13\n00:04:30,475 --> 00:04:54,726\n主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年\n\n14\n00:04:55,606 --> 00:05:07,353\n你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法、數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來\n\n15\n00:05:25,904 --> 00:05:43,093\n這個我想這個...只有一個案子?到今年目前為止?這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再...我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止?\n\n16\n00:05:44,785 --> 00:06:00,785\n今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據\n\n17\n00:06:03,223 --> 00:06:03,964\nbicyclap\n\n18\n00:06:33,183 --> 00:06:33,360\n公務及基金預算。\n\n19\n00:06:34,298 --> 00:07:03,758\n就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正辦啊你這部分才應該要花更多錢你剛剛空污基金拿去給國防部用假裝一些名目就是支出這個都不是正辦你自己的本業\n\n20\n00:07:04,278 --> 00:07:27,210\nbicy,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上好不好。這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部,結果你們現在竟然環評細則,你們自己要自費武功啊,說哎呀這個光電最好是地方自己去審就好。那幹嘛把你們升格?\n\n21\n00:07:31,511 --> 00:07:36,161\n幹嘛升格?這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊。\n\n22\n00:07:37,421 --> 00:08:04,798\n好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎\n\n23\n00:08:06,753 --> 00:08:10,934\nbicy部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?\n\n24\n00:08:10,934 --> 00:08:16,676\nbicy因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求,就是說希望我們再對這個……立法院的需求?\n\n25\n00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:26,700\nbicy立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法。然後也提醒我們要把光電放進來。所以我們光電呢也…是要你加鹽不是…\n\n26\n00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:28,401\n部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部\n\n27\n00:08:51,940 --> 00:09:15,548\n沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做\n\n28\n00:09:18,749 --> 00:09:45,990\n最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低\n\n29\n00:09:46,766 --> 00:09:46,786\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n30\n00:10:10,841 --> 00:10:33,380\n這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在臺中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長\n\n31\n00:10:38,162 --> 00:11:03,857\n這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項\n\n32\n00:11:04,608 --> 00:11:27,512\n如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案\n\n33\n00:11:28,649 --> 00:11:49,201\n不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長\n\n34\n00:11:52,463 --> 00:12:08,945\n如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除\n\n35\n00:12:09,706 --> 00:12:24,572\n這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得\n\n36\n00:12:36,116 --> 00:12:43,531\n民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6365\t8668\t好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫\n22509\t39762\t國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。 這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。 報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。 這是你力行性的業務。 我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。 那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?\n41703\t64342\t過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好\n64802\t74308\t然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕\n92331\t115060\t這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣\n115920\t143667\t這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會在監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要\n144307\t149310\t公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管\n173223\t195482\t好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法\n196483\t217956\t怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。\n218336\t218896\t因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。\n236822\t260897\t連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊\n262381\t262702\t報告員我們部內其實已經\n270475\t294726\t主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年\n295606\t307353\t你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法、數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來\n325904\t343093\t這個我想這個...只有一個案子?到今年目前為止?這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再...我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止?\n344785\t360785\t今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據\n363223\t363964\tbicyclap\n393183\t393360\t公務及基金預算。\n394298\t423758\t就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正辦啊你這部分才應該要花更多錢你剛剛空污基金拿去給國防部用假裝一些名目就是支出這個都不是正辦你自己的本業\n424278\t447210\tbicy,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上好不好。這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部,結果你們現在竟然環評細則,你們自己要自費武功啊,說哎呀這個光電最好是地方自己去審就好。那幹嘛把你們升格?\n451511\t456161\t幹嘛升格?這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊。\n457421\t484798\t好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎\n486753\t490934\tbicy 部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?\n490934\t496676\tbicy 因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求,就是說希望我們再對這個……立法院的需求?\n496676\t506700\tbicy 立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法。然後也提醒我們要把光電放進來。所以我們光電呢也…是要你加鹽不是…\n506820\t508401\t部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部\n531940\t555548\t沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做\n558749\t585990\t最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低\n586766\t586786\t﹝廣告﹞\n610841\t633380\t這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在臺中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長\n638162\t663857\t這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項\n664608\t687512\t如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案\n688649\t709201\t不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長\n712463\t728945\t如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除\n729706\t744572\t這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得\n756116\t763531\t民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫\n國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。 這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。 報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。 這是你力行性的業務。 我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。 那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?\n過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好\n然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕\n這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣\n這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會在監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管\n好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法\n怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。\n因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。\n連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊\n報告員我們部內其實已經\n主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年\n你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法、數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來\n這個我想這個...只有一個案子?到今年目前為止?這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再...我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止?\n今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據\nbicyclap\n公務及基金預算。\n就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正辦啊你這部分才應該要花更多錢你剛剛空污基金拿去給國防部用假裝一些名目就是支出這個都不是正辦你自己的本業\nbicy,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上好不好。這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部,結果你們現在竟然環評細則,你們自己要自費武功啊,說哎呀這個光電最好是地方自己去審就好。那幹嘛把你們升格?\n幹嘛升格?這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊。\n好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎\nbicy 部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?\nbicy 因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求,就是說希望我們再對這個……立法院的需求?\nbicy 立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法。然後也提醒我們要把光電放進來。所以我們光電呢也…是要你加鹽不是…\n部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部\n沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做\n最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低\n﹝廣告﹞\n這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在臺中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長\n這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項\n如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案\n不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長\n如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除\n這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得\n民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.365 --> 00:08.668\n好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫\n\n00:22.509 --> 00:39.762\n國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。這是你力行性的業務。我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?\n\n00:41.703 --> 01:04.342\n過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好\n\n01:04.802 --> 01:14.308\n然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕\n\n01:32.331 --> 01:55.060\n這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣\n\n01:55.920 --> 02:23.667\n這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會在監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要\n\n02:24.307 --> 02:29.310\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管\n\n02:53.223 --> 03:15.482\n好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法\n\n03:16.483 --> 03:37.956\n怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。\n\n03:38.336 --> 03:38.896\n因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。\n\n03:56.822 --> 04:20.897\n連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊\n\n04:22.381 --> 04:22.702\n報告員我們部內其實已經\n\n04:30.475 --> 04:54.726\n主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年\n\n04:55.606 --> 05:07.353\n你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法、數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來\n\n05:25.904 --> 05:43.093\n這個我想這個...只有一個案子?到今年目前為止?這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再...我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止?\n\n05:44.785 --> 06:00.785\n今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據\n\n06:03.223 --> 06:03.964\nbicyclap\n\n06:33.183 --> 06:33.360\n公務及基金預算。\n\n06:34.298 --> 07:03.758\n就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正辦啊你這部分才應該要花更多錢你剛剛空污基金拿去給國防部用假裝一些名目就是支出這個都不是正辦你自己的本業\n\n07:04.278 --> 07:27.210\nbicy,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上好不好。這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部,結果你們現在竟然環評細則,你們自己要自費武功啊,說哎呀這個光電最好是地方自己去審就好。那幹嘛把你們升格?\n\n07:31.511 --> 07:36.161\n幹嘛升格?這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊。\n\n07:37.421 --> 08:04.798\n好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎\n\n08:06.753 --> 08:10.934\nbicy部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?\n\n08:10.934 --> 08:16.676\nbicy因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求,就是說希望我們再對這個……立法院的需求?\n\n08:16.676 --> 08:26.700\nbicy立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法。然後也提醒我們要把光電放進來。所以我們光電呢也…是要你加鹽不是…\n\n08:26.820 --> 08:28.401\n部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部\n\n08:51.940 --> 09:15.548\n沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做\n\n09:18.749 --> 09:45.990\n最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低\n\n09:46.766 --> 09:46.786\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n10:10.841 --> 10:33.380\n這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在臺中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長\n\n10:38.162 --> 11:03.857\n這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項\n\n11:04.608 --> 11:27.512\n如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案\n\n11:28.649 --> 11:49.201\n不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長\n\n11:52.463 --> 12:08.945\n如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除\n\n12:09.706 --> 12:24.572\n這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得\n\n12:36.116 --> 12:43.531\n民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.365,"end":8.668,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫"},{"start":22.509,"end":39.762,"text":"國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。 這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。 報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。 這是你力行性的業務。 我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。 那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?"},{"start":41.703,"end":64.342,"text":"過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好"},{"start":64.802,"end":74.308,"text":"然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕"},{"start":92.331,"end":115.06,"text":"這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":115.92,"end":143.667,"text":"這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會在監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要"},{"start":144.307,"end":149.31,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管"},{"start":173.223,"end":195.482,"text":"好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法"},{"start":196.483,"end":217.956,"text":"怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。"},{"start":218.336,"end":218.896,"text":"因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。"},{"start":236.822,"end":260.897,"text":"連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊"},{"start":262.381,"end":262.702,"text":"報告員我們部內其實已經"},{"start":270.475,"end":294.726,"text":"主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年"},{"start":295.606,"end":307.353,"text":"你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法、數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來"},{"start":325.904,"end":343.093,"text":"這個我想這個...只有一個案子?到今年目前為止?這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再...我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止?"},{"start":344.785,"end":360.785,"text":"今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據"},{"start":363.223,"end":363.964,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":393.183,"end":393.36,"text":"公務及基金預算。"},{"start":394.298,"end":423.758,"text":"就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正辦啊你這部分才應該要花更多錢你剛剛空污基金拿去給國防部用假裝一些名目就是支出這個都不是正辦你自己的本業"},{"start":424.278,"end":447.21,"text":" bicy,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上好不好。這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部,結果你們現在竟然環評細則,你們自己要自費武功啊,說哎呀這個光電最好是地方自己去審就好。那幹嘛把你們升格?"},{"start":451.511,"end":456.161,"text":"幹嘛升格?這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊。"},{"start":457.421,"end":484.798,"text":"好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎"},{"start":486.753,"end":490.934,"text":" bicy 部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?"},{"start":490.934,"end":496.676,"text":"bicy 因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求,就是說希望我們再對這個……立法院的需求?"},{"start":496.676,"end":506.7,"text":"bicy 立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法。然後也提醒我們要把光電放進來。所以我們光電呢也…是要你加鹽不是…"},{"start":506.82,"end":508.401,"text":"部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部"},{"start":531.94,"end":555.548,"text":"沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做"},{"start":558.749,"end":585.99,"text":"最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低"},{"start":586.766,"end":586.786,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":610.841,"end":633.38,"text":"這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在臺中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長"},{"start":638.162,"end":663.857,"text":"這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項"},{"start":664.608,"end":687.512,"text":"如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案"},{"start":688.649,"end":709.201,"text":"不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長"},{"start":712.463,"end":728.945,"text":"如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除"},{"start":729.706,"end":744.572,"text":"這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得"},{"start":756.116,"end":763.531,"text":"民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1114,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時54分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我追問一下，剛剛陳菁徽委員問那麼多，是不是總而言之一句話，就是環境部你們其實是在幫國防部分擔萬一戰時所需要的一些相關準備工作？這90億是不是就是這樣？一句話就好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是，因為我們是在統合所有的化災……"],["王委員育敏：這是你例行性的業務？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望統合，因為毒化災是一個很專業的領域。"],["王委員育敏：那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：過去其實我們很想要整合的很多，現在他們還在努力。"],["王委員育敏：所以過去沒有，現在才編嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：其實過去就有整合。"],["王委員育敏：所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛韌性計畫？應該就是啊！"],["彭部長啓明：應該不是，不是、不是，因為我們是要保障國人……"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們努力了很久，其實……"],["王委員育敏：部長，容我提醒，別的地方更需要錢，你不要本業還沒有做好，然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去，讓國防部來占你這邊的經費，我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置。我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了。剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情，讓桃園的居民非常地膽顫心驚，我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕，這個橘色含有硝酸的毒物這樣擴散，對人體其實產生非常大的影響，我要問你，這件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣？我看到當地環保單位說最高可以罰到兩千萬，請問有嗎？這個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是由地方環保局……"],["王委員育敏：你們要監督啊。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們會再監督。事實上，那天七點多發生，我們八點二十幾分的時候，我們化學署的應變小組已經進到那個地方了，也做好附近的整個監測。委員提到的那個監測數據，因為其實這個空污是位在一個小地方，它飄到一個地方，不見得會飄到那個監測站，附近也有一些自動的站……"],["王委員育敏：沒有，我先講昨天桃園的這一件，待會我要跟你討論數據造假的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["王委員育敏：所以桃園這個現在已經整個處理完畢了？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：預計要開罰多少？像這樣的重大空污事件會開罰多少？"],["彭部長啓明：這個目前來說應該是十萬到兩千萬。"],["王委員育敏：這個range非常大。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：昨天這樣的情況，情節是嚴重還是不嚴重？"],["彭部長啓明：如果從這個樣子來看，特別是紅褐色的話，那是很嚴重的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們不要又輕輕放下，為什麼我會這樣子講？接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案，現在已經被起訴，這一案當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎？四十萬，連續三年的數據造假，依照空氣污染防制法，怎麼會只有罰四十萬？都是低標再低標，後來空污法修到最高兩千萬也沒有用啊，實質上，你們在做這樣的事情時，你們有在督導地方政府嗎？特別這還是竹科園區，連續三年的造假，你們通通不知道，這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的，部長，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是我們環境部大氣司主動偵查出來的，要不要請我們大氣司……"],["王委員育敏：自己監測出來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：還是有吹哨者舉發的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個當然有吹哨者，但是我們也主動看到這個證據……"],["王委員育敏：因為你們連續三年渾然不知啊！連續三年都造假，其實你們根本就不知道啊，如果這麼容易造假，今天我要問的就是，那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理？只要他的環安人員懂得去調控數據，數據都很好看，通通都沒有超標，如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來，會被揭發嗎？你們的監控數據也監控不到啊，都沒有發現，這才是重大的問題，這個部分你們要怎麼改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們部內其實已經主動檢舉、移送檢調有幾個案例了，也都在偵辦當中。像這個案子，除了吹哨者之外，我們也主動看到那個數據，所以基本上……"],["王委員育敏：它數據造假，你怎麼會看到數據？"],["彭部長啓明：數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波譜分析出來它是不是造假，我們大氣司的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情。"],["王委員育敏：三年耶，還說有這樣的能力。我就問你，今年到目前為止，依照空污法，這種違法數據造假的案件，到目前為止裁罰了幾例，你們主動發現了幾例？"],["彭部長啓明：要不要請我們大氣司來講？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，目前這個資料報的第一關是報到環保局，環保局審查有問題的時候，我們會去協助，因為數量實在相當多啦，目前在進行中的有一個案子，應該是這兩天罰單會開出來。"],["王委員育敏：到今年目前為止只有一個案子？"],["張司長順欽：這個都有進到檢調系統，我們就不方便在這邊談太細。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我要問你的是，現在你們自己主動，透過中央跟地方揪出來的這種數據造假的案件，今年到目前為止有幾件？就一件？"],["張司長順欽：今年目前具體成案的是一件，有一些是小缺失的部分……"],["王委員育敏：就是非常地少啊。"],["張司長順欽：有一些是小缺失，因為這個要判斷真正是偽造的其實有它的難度。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我今天要求環境部，你們要去澈底檢討，如果有人膽敢三年來都偽造數據，不排除還有其他人也是這樣子做啦，如果這樣的話，你們到今年目前為止也才揪出一件，就表示你們主動去偵查的能力還是太弱，你們應該要檢討，你剛剛說得很好，你說你們可以比對任何數值，但目前為止才一件嘛。所以我的要求是，這個空污的管制非常重要，昨天我們看到桃園這樣的案例，它一飄散出來，你叫民眾做什麼？趕快把窗戶關起來、不要外出，就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止，而是叫民眾自救，所以你前端的防制變得非常重要，所以我要求這個部分環境部應該要強化你們主動偵查的能力，讓這一些有心造假數據的公司無所遁形，這才是你的正辦啊，你在這部分才應該要花更多錢，但你的空污基金拿去給國防部用，假裝一些名目就去支出，這個都不是正辦，你自己的本業，我拜託你，你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["王委員育敏：這件事情我要求你們要澈底再去檢討。","第二件事情，你們的本業，你們從環保署好不容易升格環境部，結果現在環評細則的部分你們自己要自廢武功，說光電最好是地方自己去審就好，那幹麼把你們升格？幹麼升格？這個連前環保署副署長詹順貴都看不下去，好不容易權力到你手上的時候，又升格、又有資源，結果你要把你的責任下放給地方，你就不想管。賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼？面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結，絕不寬貸。光電弊案叢生，你們竟然還要把審核環評的監督權丟給地方，那不就是讓地方官官相護嗎？部長，你的態度是怎麼樣，你為什麼會允許這樣的事情呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這是上個會期立法院的需求，就是希望我們在對……"],["王委員育敏：立法院的需求？"],["彭部長啓明：立法院有提醒我們要修改中央跟地方的相關子法，也提醒我們要把光電放進來，所以我們光電……"],["王委員育敏：是要你加嚴，不是放鬆啊！"],["彭部長啓明：加嚴、加嚴，新增的，因為過去光電的部分是沒有的。"],["王委員育敏：那你怎麼會反而要讓地方政府自己來審呢？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，15到30MW屬於可由地方審，30以上是中央審，但是其實我今天也正式宣布，這些還是全部由我們來處理。"],["王委員育敏：好，部長，你現在正式對委員會、對媒體講，就是正式宣布這個環評還是應該要留在環境部？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：好，那就正式承諾，這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任。因為連檢察總長邢泰釗都說，地方裁量權過大，勾結索賄，導致現在弊端叢生的問題，所以，環境部就要擔起中央監督的責任。我肯定部長你今天具體做出這樣的承諾，應該就是要這樣做。","最後，我要再問部長一個小學堂的問題，請看簡報中的A、B、C、D，如果發電量都相同，怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低？A、B、C、D，來，請回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你的答案看起來就是D，但是其實前面A、B、C的部分，如果燃氣或是燃煤有很好的CCS碳捕捉與封存的話，它的排碳其實也可以很低。"],["王委員育敏：不會比加核能低吧？很低也不會比核能低啊！這是基本的科學問題，難怪今天社論就說，氣候變遷大會開假的，因為你主動把可以減碳的選項變不見了。如果燃煤機組可以保留，為什麼核能機組一定要全面廢核？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個……"],["王委員育敏：這個可以是選擇題啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼上次開環評大會的時候，你們執意臺中中火的燃煤機組不可以廢，國安考量所以通通要保留下來，而且還保留下來全部都集中在臺中，如果是這樣，為什麼不是保留原來的核能機組？還可以北部、南部分散，來作為你的備用能源，不是也很好嗎？而且還可以減碳。這是科學的問題，部長，連我們的中研院院長廖俊智都敢說出核能，他認為還是不能排除核能的選項，那我問你，你認為臺灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳重任，臺灣可不可以完全排除核能的選項？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實你說的問題是因為，我們的核能電廠，根據核子設施處理的相關法令，它是有使用期限的，而那個期限也有法律的規定，如果要按照規定新設置的話，恐怕又要經過很多程序，所以其實它跟環評通過增設燃氣機組並保留燃煤機組是不一樣的個案。"],["王委員育敏：不是不一樣的個案，你如果覺得核能很重要的話，那世界各國……核能就是可以延役，可以延役處理，作為執政黨，可以提出延役修法的選項，但是為什麼執意不要這個選項呢？"],["彭部長啓明：但是如果說……因為委員，我們是環評的主管機關，如果要做延役評估的話，其實包含了它的廠址是不是位於斷層，或是說各種的敏感環境……"],["王委員育敏：部長，如果你是環評的機關，你更應該知道，就是我剛剛問你的問題，核能的減碳效果才是最好的，會比燃煤真的好太多了，結果你們現在開的環評大會是保留燃煤機組，但是要廢除核能設施，這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策，你氣候變遷大會開十遍也是一樣啊！因為上面的源頭、你的政策就是錯誤的。部長，我對你還是有點期許，你還是要秉持你從民間來的、比較客觀的精神，要敢講真話，有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話、就敢堅持，你才會贏得民心，才會得到更多民意的支持……"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得政務官就是這樣，做對的事就對了，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}