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00:01:14,218\n對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。\n\n4\n00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:34,830\n那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員\n\n5\n00:01:37,273 --> 00:01:59,762\n可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員\n\n6\n00:02:01,331 --> 00:02:23,265\n那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話\n\n7\n00:02:26,774 --> 00:02:53,029\n這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的\n\n8\n00:02:54,505 --> 00:03:09,315\n推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊\n\n9\n00:03:10,165 --> 00:03:26,600\n局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時\n\n10\n00:03:28,181 --> 00:03:46,384\n對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊\n\n11\n00:03:48,994 --> 00:03:52,635\n第2部長局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對\n\n12\n00:04:30,183 --> 00:04:46,628\n邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心\n\n13\n00:04:47,348 --> 00:05:15,042\n我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫\n\n14\n00:05:15,922 --> 00:05:42,371\n但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作\n\n15\n00:05:43,531 --> 00:06:02,112\n這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題\n\n16\n00:06:03,493 --> 00:06:24,840\n但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話\n\n17\n00:06:25,865 --> 00:06:45,311\n那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機\n\n18\n00:06:47,148 --> 00:07:14,145\n他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個\n\n19\n00:07:15,646 --> 00:07:26,219\n我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估\n\n20\n00:07:27,957 --> 00:07:54,522\n第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來\n\n21\n00:07:55,222 --> 00:08:22,178\n所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對\n\n22\n00:08:22,918 --> 00:08:22,938\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t24134\t我想請國安局的蔡局長好 洪委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師跑到珠海的航展上面\n26234\t43941\t這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?\n48428\t74218\t對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。\n76196\t94830\t那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員\n97273\t119762\t可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員\n121331\t143265\t那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話\n146774\t173029\t這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的\n174505\t189315\t推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊\n190165\t206600\t局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時\n208181\t226384\t對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊\n228994\t232635\t第2部長 局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對\n252022\t270043\t．﹏\n270183\t286628\t邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心\n287348\t315042\t我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫\n315922\t342371\t但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作\n343531\t362112\t這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題\n363493\t384840\t但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話\n385865\t405311\t那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機\n407148\t434145\t他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個\n435646\t446219\t我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估\n447957\t474522\t第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來\n475222\t502178\t所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對\n502918\t502938\t韓國瑜議員\n","txt":"我想請國安局的蔡局長好 洪委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師跑到珠海的航展上面\n這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?\n對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。\n那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員\n可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員\n那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話\n這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的\n推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊\n局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時\n對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊\n第2部長 局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對\n．﹏\n邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心\n我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫\n但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作\n這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題\n但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話\n那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機\n他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個\n我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估\n第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來\n所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對\n韓國瑜議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:24.134\n我想請國安局的蔡局長好洪委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師跑到珠海的航展上面\n\n00:26.234 --> 00:43.941\n這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?\n\n00:48.428 --> 01:14.218\n對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。\n\n01:16.196 --> 01:34.830\n那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員\n\n01:37.273 --> 01:59.762\n可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員\n\n02:01.331 --> 02:23.265\n那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話\n\n02:26.774 --> 02:53.029\n這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的\n\n02:54.505 --> 03:09.315\n推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊\n\n03:10.165 --> 03:26.600\n局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時\n\n03:28.181 --> 03:46.384\n對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊\n\n03:48.994 --> 03:52.635\n第2部長局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對\n\n04:30.183 --> 04:46.628\n邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心\n\n04:47.348 --> 05:15.042\n我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫\n\n05:15.922 --> 05:42.371\n但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作\n\n05:43.531 --> 06:02.112\n這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題\n\n06:03.493 --> 06:24.840\n但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話\n\n06:25.865 --> 06:45.311\n那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機\n\n06:47.148 --> 07:14.145\n他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個\n\n07:15.646 --> 07:26.219\n我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估\n\n07:27.957 --> 07:54.522\n第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來\n\n07:55.222 --> 08:22.178\n所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對\n\n08:22.918 --> 08:22.938\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":24.134,"text":"我想請國安局的蔡局長好 洪委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師跑到珠海的航展上面"},{"start":26.234,"end":43.941,"text":"這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?"},{"start":48.428,"end":74.218,"text":"對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。"},{"start":76.196,"end":94.83,"text":"那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員"},{"start":97.273,"end":119.762,"text":"可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員"},{"start":121.331,"end":143.265,"text":"那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話"},{"start":146.774,"end":173.029,"text":"這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的"},{"start":174.505,"end":189.315,"text":"推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊"},{"start":190.165,"end":206.6,"text":"局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時"},{"start":208.181,"end":226.384,"text":"對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊"},{"start":228.994,"end":232.635,"text":"第2部長 局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對"},{"start":252.022,"end":270.043,"text":"．﹏"},{"start":270.183,"end":286.628,"text":"邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心"},{"start":287.348,"end":315.042,"text":"我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫"},{"start":315.922,"end":342.371,"text":"但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作"},{"start":343.531,"end":362.112,"text":"這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題"},{"start":363.493,"end":384.84,"text":"但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話"},{"start":385.865,"end":405.311,"text":"那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機"},{"start":407.148,"end":434.145,"text":"他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個"},{"start":435.646,"end":446.219,"text":"我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估"},{"start":447.957,"end":474.522,"text":"第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來"},{"start":475.222,"end":502.178,"text":"所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對"},{"start":502.918,"end":502.938,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時14分）好，想請國安局的蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：洪委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我想要先來問一下，這兩天在媒體上大家都看到前海軍艦長呂禮詩跑到珠海航展，這一番言論目前讓……我們看到中國的社群媒體上面，大家在瘋傳他的那一席話，那話我就不想多說了，你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去那邊講這種話，局長覺得妥當嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，確實比較不妥當啦！也有可能淪為中共在對臺認知作戰操作一個主要的訴求。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們看到這一件事情其實有很不尋常的地方，第一個，他是一個海軍艦長，但其實他並不是將級以上的軍階，但是中國大批媒體從各地跑去採訪他，採訪他以後，再把他的影片放在中國網路上面，坦白說，我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑，這是不是就是由中共在後面導的一場戲？呂禮詩只是這上面被交付任務的演員？可是現在我們遇到比較大的問題是，就像前幾天大家談到吳斯懷條款，現在在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三，我想局長應該很清楚，我們這個條文是寫有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員，因為呂禮詩不是少將以上的人員，所以他看起來就逃過了第九條之三這個法規的規範，所以從這幾個訊息裡面，大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共特地去找一個不是將級以上的退役人員來說這樣子的話？那這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞，局長？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們尊重委員的判斷，對於一些退役將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流方面，當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，現在不是尊重的問題，我現在的意思是說，接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的退役軍人來講類似的話，或來做類似的表達？他就看準兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三的條文，他要閃過你這個條文，所以專門找非將級以上的，局長覺得有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：可能性不能排除，這也突顯到我們在法律規範的部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶，才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，國安局針對中共這些新的手段跟發展，我覺得我們應該要抱持著對於條文隨時要修訂，尤其是加嚴的準備，以因應像呂禮詩這樣非常非常不妥當的行為，而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中國的大外宣，所謂的國力，國力其實在講的是軍事上面，那軍事是對著誰？對著臺灣！是對著臺灣！我覺得這是非常非常不妥當，而且我們絕對要要求在不管是軍方也好，或者安全單位也好，我覺得在紀律上面絕對要有非常嚴格的規範，這是第一個想跟局長討論的。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個，局長，上個月底我們也看到福建省發布了第三波惠臺利民的政策，尤其是針對包括漳州五年內將為臺灣的護理人員提供數百個工作的機會，尤其讓你一開始就可以領取4.5萬的獎勵補助，這個針對護理人員的措施其實已經引起民間很多的討論，衛福部長邱部長強調，他表達對於臺灣醫療環境的方向有信心，局長覺得對於留住臺灣的醫護人員，你有沒有信心？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重衛福部長的評估跟判斷，但就這問題來講，也跟委員說明一下，我們有注意到，福建現在已經變成中共要推動兩岸促融的一個樣板省份，所以它提出非常多所謂的惠臺計畫，提供各種工作機會，也像委員剛剛所提到有提供一些津貼的補助。不過跟委員說明，關於中國大陸現在的狀況，地方政府為了配合中央政策，常常會提出很多這一類的計畫。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：但它到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題，因為地方政府希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助、津貼的補助，所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫，但是要跟委員說明，目前中共大陸的經濟情勢、就業狀況本身並不好，他對於我們國人相關的吸引力也不斷的在降低當中，所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對臺進行統戰的動作，這部分特別跟委員說明。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我第一個要先肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們在國家整體安全上面的一個隱患，因為過去我們對護理人才流失的問題常常都比較定位成是一個勞動的問題，或者是一個醫療照護上面的問題，但我們現在很擔心中國是不是在利用臺灣部分領域的這些弱點，變成是在打擊臺灣的社會韌性，或者是在對社會韌性再做更進一步的掏空、攻擊，如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的侵犯，那這就是安全的問題了，所以我不知道局長有沒有把你剛才這些相關的資訊讓衛福部也知道，這真的可能已經是安全上面的問題，尤其我認為國安局可能要花多花一點力氣，到底中國做這些事情的動機為何？這些相關的情資我也希望能夠更進一步的蒐集，也包括要去掌握，我們對於護理人才流失類似的問題，或者我們專業人才會不會流失或被中國吸引，這一直以來當然都是一個很大的議題，也不全然只是國安局的問題，所以我這邊接下來有幾個部分的要求，也希望局長可以參考。","第一個，我們必須評估中國惠臺措施是否有危害臺灣醫療安全，包括社會韌性的意圖，這部分要請國安局更審慎、積極的來評估；第二個，針對這個部分應該要進行系統性的情蒐，也有很多人在講中國惠臺措施將臺灣內政化，影響各國對於臺灣的認知，要有相關的因應。以上這幾點，當然有些部分的主管機關是在衛福部，我們都清楚，可是就安全方面的評估，甚至是因應的建議，這部分希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來。","不管是我們在前面講到呂禮詩也好，或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員這樣子的動作也好，其實某部分都是對我們這些專業人才用一種吸引或統戰的方式，這個局長也很清楚，我覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應，而不是只是在自己原本的視角範疇裡面，那可能是不夠的，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，這部分我們再針對相關的問題，從國安的角度來評估中共的一些惠臺政策有沒有去影響到我們的國安或社會的韌性，特別是過程當中，關於中共認知操作的手法，我們會特別再用系統性的分析來整理，謝謝委員提醒。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。局長，如果你們認為有法律模糊的地帶，也建議你們可以提出修法建議。","接下來進行詢答的委員，徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}}