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\"text\": \"在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 584.648, \"end\": 585.188, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 585.188, \"end\": 585.749, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 585.749, \"end\": 585.969, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 585.969, \"end\": 586.389, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"傷\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 586.389, \"end\": 586.789, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"索\", \"start\": 586.789, \"end\": 586.989, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 586.989, \"end\": 587.09, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 587.09, \"end\": 587.47, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 587.47, \"end\": 587.59, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 587.59, \"end\": 587.71, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"挑\", \"start\": 587.71, 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{\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 597.976, \"end\": 598.176, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 598.176, \"end\": 598.416, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 598.416, \"end\": 598.756, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 598.756, \"end\": 599.197, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 599.197, \"end\": 599.397, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 599.397, \"end\": 599.617, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 599.617, \"end\": 599.637, \"score\": 0.1}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 600.526, \"end\": 625.047, \"text\": \"報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 600.526, \"end\": 600.706, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 600.706, \"end\": 600.866, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 620.963, \"end\": 621.144, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 621.144, \"end\": 621.324, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 621.324, \"end\": 621.484, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 621.484, \"end\": 621.664, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 621.664, \"end\": 621.784, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 621.784, \"end\": 621.884, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 621.884, \"end\": 621.984, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 621.984, \"end\": 623.245, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 623.245, \"end\": 623.465, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 623.465, \"end\": 623.606, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 623.606, \"end\": 623.766, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 623.766, \"end\": 623.886, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 623.886, \"end\": 624.046, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 624.046, \"end\": 624.106, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 624.106, \"end\": 624.366, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 624.366, \"end\": 624.526, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 624.526, \"end\": 624.687, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"塑\", \"start\": 624.687, \"end\": 625.027, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"膠\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 625.027, \"end\": 625.047, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"約\"}]}, {\"start\": 625.387, \"end\": 644.742, \"text\": \"另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 625.387, \"end\": 625.507, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 625.507, \"end\": 625.667, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 625.667, \"end\": 625.887, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, 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\"好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 645.776, \"end\": 646.016, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 646.016, \"end\": 648.177, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 648.177, \"end\": 648.397, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 648.397, \"end\": 648.577, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 648.577, \"end\": 649.277, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 649.277, \"end\": 650.618, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"輔\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 672.985, \"end\": 673.125, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 673.125, \"end\": 673.625, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 673.625, \"end\": 673.705, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 673.705, \"end\": 673.765, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 673.765, \"end\": 673.965, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 673.965, \"end\": 674.065, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 674.065, \"end\": 674.085, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"請\"}]}, {\"start\": 675.105, \"end\": 697.823, \"text\": \"委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 675.105, \"end\": 675.326, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 675.326, \"end\": 675.506, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 675.506, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 706.418, \"end\": 706.778, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 706.778, \"end\": 706.879, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"祥\", \"start\": 706.879, \"end\": 707.019, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 707.019, \"end\": 707.159, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 707.159, \"end\": 707.42, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 707.42, \"end\": 707.84, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"盧\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 707.84, \"end\": 707.941, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 707.941, \"end\": 707.961, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,829 --> 00:00:08,291\n政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫。\n\n2\n00:00:21,158 --> 00:00:37,057\n那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南坎溪等七條河流等一下我的簡報\n\n3\n00:00:38,973 --> 00:01:03,769\n但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何\n\n4\n00:01:05,735 --> 00:01:29,553\n委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是安淡的一個削減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣\n\n5\n00:01:30,113 --> 00:01:45,726\n對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?\n\n6\n00:01:46,366 --> 00:02:03,132\n按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以\n\n7\n00:02:08,362 --> 00:02:29,818\nbicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川\n\n8\n00:02:30,938 --> 00:02:58,477\n我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些\n\n9\n00:02:59,457 --> 00:03:14,103\n公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183\n\n10\n00:03:21,286 --> 00:03:33,793\n那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧\n\n11\n00:03:34,763 --> 00:03:37,265\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案\n\n12\n00:03:55,416 --> 00:04:09,340\n您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼\n\n13\n00:04:11,041 --> 00:04:13,582\n好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年\n\n14\n00:04:41,030 --> 00:05:03,025\n那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了\n\n15\n00:05:07,808 --> 00:05:33,161\n安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形\n\n16\n00:05:34,684 --> 00:05:52,135\n這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以\n\n17\n00:05:52,955 --> 00:06:11,691\n好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那\n\n18\n00:06:19,099 --> 00:06:34,788\n這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點\n\n19\n00:06:36,289 --> 00:07:03,019\n讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎\n\n20\n00:07:04,059 --> 00:07:28,769\n來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面\n\n21\n00:07:30,069 --> 00:07:53,360\n很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%\n\n22\n00:07:54,921 --> 00:08:03,003\n那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?\n\n23\n00:08:03,775 --> 00:08:29,806\n因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢\n\n24\n00:08:30,914 --> 00:08:50,363\n報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%\n\n25\n00:08:52,564 --> 00:09:03,792\n其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?\n\n26\n00:09:04,616 --> 00:09:06,377\n所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了\n\n27\n00:09:22,346 --> 00:09:22,526\nbicyC.\n\n28\n00:09:22,526 --> 00:09:43,948\n剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。\n\n29\n00:09:44,648 --> 00:09:59,637\n在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?\n\n30\n00:10:00,526 --> 00:10:25,047\n報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約\n\n31\n00:10:25,387 --> 00:10:44,742\n另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?\n\n32\n00:10:45,776 --> 00:11:14,085\n好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請\n\n33\n00:11:15,105 --> 00:11:37,823\n委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來\n\n34\n00:11:38,263 --> 00:11:47,961\n»:如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6829\t8291\t政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫。\n21158\t37057\t那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南坎溪等七條河流等一下我的簡報\n38973\t63769\t但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何\n65735\t89553\t委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是安淡的一個削減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣\n90113\t105726\t對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?\n106366\t123132\t按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。 那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以\n128362\t149818\tbicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川\n150938\t178477\t我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些\n179457\t194103\t公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183\n201286\t213793\t那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧\n214763\t217265\t公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案\n235416\t249340\t您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼\n251041\t253582\t好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年\n281030\t303025\t那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了\n307808\t333161\t安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形\n334684\t352135\t這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以\n352955\t371691\t好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那\n379099\t394788\t這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點\n396289\t423019\t讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎\n424059\t448769\t來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面\n450069\t473360\t很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%\n474921\t483003\t那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?\n483775\t509806\t因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢\n510914\t530363\t報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%\n532564\t543792\t其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?\n544616\t546377\t所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了\n562346\t562526\tbicyC.\n562526\t583948\t剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。\n584648\t599637\t在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?\n600526\t625047\t報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約\n625387\t644742\t另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?\n645776\t674085\t好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請\n675105\t697823\t委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來\n698263\t707961\t»: 如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英\n","txt":"政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫。\n那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南坎溪等七條河流等一下我的簡報\n但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何\n委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是安淡的一個削減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣\n對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?\n按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。 那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以\nbicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川\n我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些\n公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183\n那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案\n您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼\n好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年\n那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了\n安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形\n這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以\n好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那\n這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點\n讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎\n來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面\n很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%\n那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?\n因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢\n報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%\n其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?\n所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了\nbicyC.\n剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。\n在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?\n報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約\n另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?\n好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請\n委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來\n»: 如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.829 --> 00:08.291\n政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫。\n\n00:21.158 --> 00:37.057\n那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南坎溪等七條河流等一下我的簡報\n\n00:38.973 --> 01:03.769\n但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何\n\n01:05.735 --> 01:29.553\n委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是安淡的一個削減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣\n\n01:30.113 --> 01:45.726\n對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?\n\n01:46.366 --> 02:03.132\n按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以\n\n02:08.362 --> 02:29.818\nbicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川\n\n02:30.938 --> 02:58.477\n我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些\n\n02:59.457 --> 03:14.103\n公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183\n\n03:21.286 --> 03:33.793\n那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧\n\n03:34.763 --> 03:37.265\n公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案\n\n03:55.416 --> 04:09.340\n您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼\n\n04:11.041 --> 04:13.582\n好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年\n\n04:41.030 --> 05:03.025\n那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了\n\n05:07.808 --> 05:33.161\n安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形\n\n05:34.684 --> 05:52.135\n這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以\n\n05:52.955 --> 06:11.691\n好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那\n\n06:19.099 --> 06:34.788\n這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點\n\n06:36.289 --> 07:03.019\n讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎\n\n07:04.059 --> 07:28.769\n來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面\n\n07:30.069 --> 07:53.360\n很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%\n\n07:54.921 --> 08:03.003\n那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?\n\n08:03.775 --> 08:29.806\n因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢\n\n08:30.914 --> 08:50.363\n報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%\n\n08:52.564 --> 09:03.792\n其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?\n\n09:04.616 --> 09:06.377\n所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了\n\n09:22.346 --> 09:22.526\nbicyC.\n\n09:22.526 --> 09:43.948\n剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。\n\n09:44.648 --> 09:59.637\n在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?\n\n10:00.526 --> 10:25.047\n報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約\n\n10:25.387 --> 10:44.742\n另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?\n\n10:45.776 --> 11:14.085\n好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請\n\n11:15.105 --> 11:37.823\n委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來\n\n11:38.263 --> 11:47.961\n»:如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.829,"end":8.291,"text":"政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫。"},{"start":21.158,"end":37.057,"text":"那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南坎溪等七條河流等一下我的簡報"},{"start":38.973,"end":63.769,"text":"但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何"},{"start":65.735,"end":89.553,"text":"委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是安淡的一個削減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣"},{"start":90.113,"end":105.726,"text":"對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?"},{"start":106.366,"end":123.132,"text":"按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。 那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以"},{"start":128.362,"end":149.818,"text":" bicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川"},{"start":150.938,"end":178.477,"text":"我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些"},{"start":179.457,"end":194.103,"text":"公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183"},{"start":201.286,"end":213.793,"text":"那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧"},{"start":214.763,"end":217.265,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案"},{"start":235.416,"end":249.34,"text":"您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼"},{"start":251.041,"end":253.582,"text":"好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年"},{"start":281.03,"end":303.025,"text":"那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了"},{"start":307.808,"end":333.161,"text":"安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形"},{"start":334.684,"end":352.135,"text":"這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以"},{"start":352.955,"end":371.691,"text":"好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那"},{"start":379.099,"end":394.788,"text":"這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點"},{"start":396.289,"end":423.019,"text":"讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":424.059,"end":448.769,"text":"來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面"},{"start":450.069,"end":473.36,"text":"很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%"},{"start":474.921,"end":483.003,"text":"那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?"},{"start":483.775,"end":509.806,"text":"因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢"},{"start":510.914,"end":530.363,"text":"報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%"},{"start":532.564,"end":543.792,"text":"其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?"},{"start":544.616,"end":546.377,"text":"所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了"},{"start":562.346,"end":562.526,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":562.526,"end":583.948,"text":"剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。"},{"start":584.648,"end":599.637,"text":"在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?"},{"start":600.526,"end":625.047,"text":"報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約"},{"start":625.387,"end":644.742,"text":"另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?"},{"start":645.776,"end":674.085,"text":"好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請"},{"start":675.105,"end":697.823,"text":"委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來"},{"start":698.263,"end":707.961,"text":" »: 如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你好。部長，我想要請教一下，政府歷年來都有進行水質保護的計畫，最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的永續水質推動計畫──氨氮削減示範計畫，這個計畫在過去也明定了，聚焦在整治南崁溪等7條河流，等一下請看我的簡報，但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫2.0，也就是113年到116年的時候，2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這7條河川，我現在想要請問部長，這7條河川第1期在108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億，包括基金那三億多，快三億五，那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個其實還是有在治理，我必須說這個還是有延續的在做，至於到底每一條河做得好不好，我請司長來回答，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問你們覺得過去的治理成效如何？"],["王司長嶽斌：是，剛才委員關心的這個計畫在當時訂定的目標是氨氮的削減，就是它的濃度要小於3mg/l（milligrams per liter）的目標……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我只是想要問你們覺得你們自己做得怎麼樣？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們從整體來檢討，基本上有符合目標要求的70%，那我們的達標率是71%。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們看一下這個PPT，你們現在說分數是99.82%、是優等，換言之，你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的，對不對？"],["王司長嶽斌：就是按照計畫要求的工項，我們是有把它完成。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，我想請你看，從這個表格可以清楚的看到108年到112年氨氮含量為嚴重污染的河川，最下面依序是從6條變9條，再變10條，再變6條，又回到9條，所以整治的效果其實並不好，因為又回到原點。如果看計畫最後兩年的數據，部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重，算是越整治越差，所以我只是想要問，這樣子經費算不算真的丟到水裡了呢？那我也想問，是不是因為這樣所以2.0不敢寫為什麼沒有聚焦在這些河川？"],["王司長嶽斌：我跟委員報告，雖然112年年底的水質狀況是呈現這樣，但是事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用，分別是南崁溪跟二仁溪，目前的濃度都有大幅的下降，基本上，那個工程雖然當時是在年底完工了，但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年，所以從今年的上半年我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的意思是說接下來才會更好？"],["王司長嶽斌：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：上一年是因為有一些工程的問題嗎？"],["王司長嶽斌：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，另外一張表格的數據顯示，從108年之後，只有111年稍微短暫下降，其他的各項評比都是偏高，尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31，然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183。部長，現在2.0還要編將近26億9,000萬，我想要請問這個具體的目標是什麼？因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的，總不能跟第1期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，我們不會，我們的重點還是放在嚴重污染河段的削減，像在112年的時候我們水質濃度的狀況會受到降雨跟水庫排放的狀況……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你們具體的目標會是什麼？就是你們覺得這個經費最終所要達到的數值，因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛！"],["王司長嶽斌：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛已經講了，很多的結果是不好的，那你現在跟我說因為有工程等等的問題。好，那我問你，你現在新的第2期的目標是什麼？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們是依據國家環境保護計畫，在119年我們要把所有嚴重污染的測站全部脫嚴，目前我們覺得這個目標因為在中南部的河川有一些畜牧業的污染而相較比較嚴重，還有一些生活污水因為下水道的管線沒有到達，所以對於嚴重污染測站的削減我們接下來的目標會著重在中南部河川的削減。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想要講的事情是，因為你第1期前面那4年的二十多億，我們現在是預算會期，那二十多億表現的就不是……你們當然自評覺得好像很好，可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣。好，現在新的部分，我剛剛也講了，其實它的數據是這樣，所以我要提醒你，在未來4年你們對這筆經費究竟是有什麼具體目標？是不是在審預算的時候要提供出來讓大家知道？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["王司長嶽斌：是，我們會再跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，除了氨氮減量之外，還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾，也就是所謂的川廢，請看簡報，日前報導綠色和平對我國的指標河川塑膠垃圾調查發現，塑膠垃圾的占比非常高，這些河廢沖到海裡又會變海廢，所以會讓我們臺灣許多海岸都布滿垃圾，清都清不完，請教部長要如何降低川廢的情形？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實還是要從整個源頭的減量做起，所以我們會努力，不過以目前來說的話，其實要改變大家的習慣，的確我自己也去撿了很多在海邊、河邊的垃圾，雖然一直撿，還是一直都有。"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊！我再進一步就教，根據112年度「向海致敬」海岸清潔維護計畫，評核報告中的結論表示，分析海岸垃圾的組成，漁業相關廢棄物占總量大概七成，其中發泡浮球占29%、漁網繩索28%、硬塑膠浮球12%、塑膠瓶11%等等，這些有包含上述川廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，海廢是海廢。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是因為川廢也會跑到海廢去，所以我的意思就是有沒有包含？我想要請教的部分就是因為這個數據讓我覺得有一點落差，如果是綠色和平講的，它的報告統計塑膠川廢是占91%，到了海廢，其實海廢的部分就沒有占這麼多，我可不可以反過來推，意思就是因為海廢的量更大，是不是這樣說？因為海廢量非常大，所以川廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後，也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠廢料，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我請署長來回答。"],["顏署長旭明：謝謝委員，剛才委員所提到的這些浮球等等之類的大概是養殖海洋活動所產生，其實近幾年來，我們在海岸的垃圾已經從每年2,200噸左右，降到大概每年900噸左右，有大幅的降低，這裡面很重要的就是這些漁網或是浮球，目前漁網是百分之百實名制，浮球也逐次改成……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，不好意思，我想請教，所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢，你們是不是也把它統計進去計算，所以他們兩個數據有一個很大落差？也就是說，在川廢時九成是塑膠垃圾，到了海岸之後，不是九成，可能是十幾、二十%，是不是代表海岸垃圾還是更多？所以川廢進來到海岸變海岸垃圾時，它的比例並沒有因此而增高？"],["彭部長啓明：因為海廢其實包含全世界各種地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，當然，所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：是這個意思，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，我再進一步來問，河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海岸廢棄物，其中大部分還是有塑膠飲料的包裝，國內大型業者責無旁貸，想要請教部長，是不是也要要求飲料品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們一直在推循環杯，儘量減少一次性的飲料杯，其實也希望通路的循環杯也一起來做這個事情……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我進一步想要看一下，在這次川廢統計中，非塑膠垃圾類的品牌排名，數量最多第一名大概是占了48%，其次是臺灣菸酒的9%，所以兩者相差六倍，我想要問，這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的退瓶押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，因為河川寶特瓶，我們有要求他們要綠色設計，而且要有回收的工作，也推動可以重複裝填，至於海洋廢棄物的部分，有時候不一定是我們臺灣的。"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在已經跟你討論到減塑的部分，剛剛我是就教數據的部分，我現在跟你討論到減塑的部分，因為塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們制定明年的減塑目標，明顯是達不到的，整體一次性塑膠品的產量不減反增，剛剛雖然你們說好像做了很多措施，可是相關數據，部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：在傳統市場、零售商的限塑遇到強力的挑戰，同樣的邏輯，一昧依靠禁止顯然也不是一個好的效果，也有反效果，有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策，讓廠商也願意進行改善呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實因為11月底就有塑膠公約，我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的動態。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以現在還沒有比較……我意思是說，有沒有什麼具體的誘因、政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入、進行改善？"],["彭部長啓明：目前第一個，還是綠色製造；第二個，我們邀請了很多的廠商包含外送業者等等，一直在討論這個問題，希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外一個我想提，是不是也有可能至少增加補助？比如說降低有機再生生質塑料的生產成本，因為它的生產成本就相對比較高，這個部分是有可能的嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有機？我們這邊是有這個……"],["廖委員偉翔：有機再生生質塑料。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為它有在這個裡面，我們會來輔導它，看怎麼樣可以來替代我們原生的塑料。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為現在看起來的狀況，一般的塑膠製品成本就是很低，這種有機再生的生質塑料成本就是很高，這個的確是很環保的東西，但是兩個因為成本的關係，所以大家還是選擇製造一次性的塑膠製品，所以我剛剛提的就是這個部分，是不是可以請……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我也去看了這些的產業，的確可能可以被鼓勵，但是那邊也有那邊的問題，包含價錢，還有它的產量問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是成本跟量的問題，所以我是說這個部分應該要去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們使用。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，我們再努力，我們的確也去看了這些，但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系建立起來。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果部長到時候有這方面進一步的研究，或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本席辦公室參考。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題、沒問題。謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}