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\"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 444.625, \"end\": 446.407, \"text\": \"我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 444.625, \"end\": 444.845, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 444.845, \"end\": 444.865, \"score\": 0.017}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 444.865, \"end\": 444.946, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 444.946, \"end\": 444.986, \"score\": 0.211}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 444.986, \"end\": 445.006, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 445.006, \"end\": 445.066, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 445.066, \"end\": 445.106, \"score\": 0.211}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 445.106, \"end\": 445.126, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 445.126, \"end\": 445.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 445.146, \"end\": 445.226, \"score\": 0.75}, 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00:00:30,504\n主席有請任市長有請蘇任市長委員長任市長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民\n\n2\n00:00:32,625 --> 00:00:54,679\n禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對\n\n3\n00:00:56,657 --> 00:01:22,783\n運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?\n\n4\n00:01:23,851 --> 00:01:40,007\n就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼\n\n5\n00:01:47,745 --> 00:02:10,893\n因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧\n\n6\n00:02:13,939 --> 00:02:20,367\n當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?\n\n7\n00:02:33,601 --> 00:02:56,932\n七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?\n\n8\n00:02:58,325 --> 00:03:13,753\n我直接講啦剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線\n\n9\n00:03:15,370 --> 00:03:31,305\n我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?\n\n10\n00:03:33,035 --> 00:04:01,569\n報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦\n\n11\n00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:08,744\n為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。\n\n12\n00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:30,840\n五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具\n\n13\n00:04:52,279 --> 00:05:15,601\n很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。\n\n14\n00:05:16,534 --> 00:05:27,408\n政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。\n\n15\n00:05:29,690 --> 00:05:45,345\n你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?\n\n16\n00:05:53,257 --> 00:06:14,586\n對阿四百人阿橫空就增加兩百多人阿預算就兩百億嘛那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛我接受這個論點啦我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿不是嗎一模一樣的邏輯\n\n17\n00:06:17,318 --> 00:06:44,626\n我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對沒有沒有\n\n18\n00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:52,770\n可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊\n\n19\n00:06:54,073 --> 00:07:22,827\n我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎\n\n20\n00:07:24,625 --> 00:07:26,407\n我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?\n\n21\n00:07:33,936 --> 00:08:00,775\n今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊\n\n22\n00:08:01,795 --> 00:08:15,786\n我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你\n\n23\n00:08:16,843 --> 00:08:45,762\n但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增\n\n24\n00:08:47,279 --> 00:08:56,174\n為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8041\t30504\t主席有請任市長有請蘇任市長委員長任市長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民\n32625\t54679\t禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對\n56657\t82783\t運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?\n83851\t100007\t就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼\n107745\t130893\t因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧\n133939\t140367\t當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?\n153601\t176932\t七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?\n178325\t193753\t我直接講啦 剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線\n195370\t211305\t我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?\n213035\t241569\t報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦\n243200\t248744\t為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。\n270199\t270840\t五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具\n292279\t315601\t很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。\n316534\t327408\t政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。\n329690\t345345\t你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?\n353257\t374586\t對阿 四百人阿 橫空就增加兩百多人阿 預算就兩百億嘛 那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹 人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛 我接受這個論點啦 我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿 不是嗎 一模一樣的邏輯\n377318\t404626\t我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對 沒有沒有\n405560\t412770\t可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊\n414073\t442827\t我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎\n444625\t446407\t我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?\n453936\t480775\t今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊\n481795\t495786\t我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你\n496843\t525762\t但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增\n527279\t536174\t為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上 謝謝\n","txt":"主席有請任市長有請蘇任市長委員長任市長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民\n禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對\n運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?\n就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼\n因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧\n當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?\n七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?\n我直接講啦 剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線\n我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?\n報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦\n為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。\n五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具\n很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。\n政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。\n你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?\n對阿 四百人阿 橫空就增加兩百多人阿 預算就兩百億嘛 那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹 人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛 我接受這個論點啦 我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿 不是嗎 一模一樣的邏輯\n我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對 沒有沒有\n可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊\n我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎\n我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?\n今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊\n我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你\n但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增\n為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.041 --> 00:30.504\n主席有請任市長有請蘇任市長委員長任市長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民\n\n00:32.625 --> 00:54.679\n禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對\n\n00:56.657 --> 01:22.783\n運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?\n\n01:23.851 --> 01:40.007\n就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼\n\n01:47.745 --> 02:10.893\n因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧\n\n02:13.939 --> 02:20.367\n當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?\n\n02:33.601 --> 02:56.932\n七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?\n\n02:58.325 --> 03:13.753\n我直接講啦剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線\n\n03:15.370 --> 03:31.305\n我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?\n\n03:33.035 --> 04:01.569\n報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦\n\n04:03.200 --> 04:08.744\n為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。\n\n04:30.199 --> 04:30.840\n五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具\n\n04:52.279 --> 05:15.601\n很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。\n\n05:16.534 --> 05:27.408\n政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。\n\n05:29.690 --> 05:45.345\n你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?\n\n05:53.257 --> 06:14.586\n對阿四百人阿橫空就增加兩百多人阿預算就兩百億嘛那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛我接受這個論點啦我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿不是嗎一模一樣的邏輯\n\n06:17.318 --> 06:44.626\n我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對沒有沒有\n\n06:45.560 --> 06:52.770\n可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊\n\n06:54.073 --> 07:22.827\n我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎\n\n07:24.625 --> 07:26.407\n我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?\n\n07:33.936 --> 08:00.775\n今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊\n\n08:01.795 --> 08:15.786\n我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你\n\n08:16.843 --> 08:45.762\n但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增\n\n08:47.279 --> 08:56.174\n為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.041,"end":30.504,"text":"主席有請任市長有請蘇任市長委員長任市長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民"},{"start":32.625,"end":54.679,"text":"禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對"},{"start":56.657,"end":82.783,"text":"運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?"},{"start":83.851,"end":100.007,"text":"就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼"},{"start":107.745,"end":130.893,"text":"因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":133.939,"end":140.367,"text":"當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?"},{"start":153.601,"end":176.932,"text":"七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":178.325,"end":193.753,"text":"我直接講啦 剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線"},{"start":195.37,"end":211.305,"text":"我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?"},{"start":213.035,"end":241.569,"text":"報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦"},{"start":243.2,"end":248.744,"text":"為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。"},{"start":270.199,"end":270.84,"text":"五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":292.279,"end":315.601,"text":"很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。"},{"start":316.534,"end":327.408,"text":"政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。"},{"start":329.69,"end":345.345,"text":"你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?"},{"start":353.257,"end":374.586,"text":"對阿 四百人阿 橫空就增加兩百多人阿 預算就兩百億嘛 那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹 人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛 我接受這個論點啦 我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿 不是嗎 一模一樣的邏輯"},{"start":377.318,"end":404.626,"text":"我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對 沒有沒有"},{"start":405.56,"end":412.77,"text":"可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊"},{"start":414.073,"end":442.827,"text":"我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎"},{"start":444.625,"end":446.407,"text":"我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":453.936,"end":480.775,"text":"今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊"},{"start":481.795,"end":495.786,"text":"我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你"},{"start":496.843,"end":525.762,"text":"但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增"},{"start":527.279,"end":536.174,"text":"為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時22分）主席，有請人事長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：有請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我看了你的報告，也聽了剛剛的詢答，我直接作個結論：我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民！禁伐補償條例拖拖拉拉，民進黨在欺負原住民；新住民發展署也拖拖拉拉，在欺負新住民，何其傲慢的政府！我先來講第一件事，為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民？現在政府要成立運動部，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：運動部成立，我支持啊！好事啊！可是按照中央行政機關組織基準法的規定，部的總數是幾個？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：14個。"],["羅委員智強：14個嘛！所以現在用滿了，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織基準法，增加一個部嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，14變15。"],["羅委員智強：但其實有另外一個作法，另外一個作法是什麼？如果不調整總額的另外一個作法是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是調整某些部，把它併……"],["羅委員智強：就是撤銷一些部、廢掉一些部嘛！如果是採第二種方式，我想請問，要廢掉教育部嗎？還是要廢掉經濟部？還是要廢掉財政部？還是要廢掉文化部？你為什麼不是採取廢其他部來增運動部的方式，為什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我們有評估過，這個有其執行上的困難。"],["羅委員智強：當然困難，根本不可能的事情嘛！你今天把原來的部會廢掉，原來部會的業務要怎麼辦？你光移撥過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響，變動的成本極大，所以不可能是廢部成部啦！不是嗎？沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上要廢掉14個部的其中一個，事實上困難度很高。"],["羅委員智強：當然，我也認為不可能啊！但是很抱歉，這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦！請問你，新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：7月12日通過之後，我們會成立專責的三級機關。"],["羅委員智強：是啊！要成立專責三級機關，請問現在中央行政機關組織基準法第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數上限是多少？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：70個。"],["羅委員智強：70個，用滿了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前滿了。"],["羅委員智強：滿了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：來，你們打算怎麼做？我直接講，你剛剛詢答已經講了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這基本上是同步在進行，第一個就是內政部移民署有成立一個新住民的籌備處……"],["羅委員智強：籌備處你都能講！內政部可以成立一個運動部籌備處，然後不要改部會上限？我直接問你，你剛剛已經回答了，你沒打算打破這70個上限，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我想請問你，你不打算打破這70個上限，你告訴我要廢掉哪個部、哪個署、哪個司、哪個局？要廢掉哪個三級機關？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們內部有在評估，現在因為還在評估階段，所以這個……"],["羅委員智強：你的評估就是跟我講你不動上限嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不動上限是原則，因為不動上限，所以我們……"],["羅委員智強：因為不動上限，你就非得撤掉一個，不然就併掉一個，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個就是我們內部……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡，人事長，我說真的，今天叫你在這邊是為難你啦！說真的今天主席邀的人也都不對啦！待會會跟你講為什麼不對，我先把這個邏輯問題跟你講清楚。為什麼沒辦法？你今天裁掉任何一個三級機關，那個三級機關的業務就有要移撥的問題，你光研議要裁掉哪個三級機關，就像你剛剛講的，你那個籌備處2、3年都研議不出來啦！你光研議要裁掉哪個籌備機關，你就這樣子把這件事情擱著啦！今天如果照你的邏輯，你剛剛也講了，你為什麼不要打破機關上限，是因為你不應該膨脹員額，盡量不要膨脹員額，不是嗎？你剛剛回答的啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們組織希望業務要重新盤點，而不是一有新的業務就去用加法思考。"],["羅委員智強：很好，非常好！我幫你翻成白話，就是你前面的白話文，可能遇到我你就稍謹慎一點，就用文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹，我跟你講，我沒有反對這個原則，這事實上也是我最大的困惑，因為我以前也在政府機關工作過，當時民進黨說，政府的機關太多，要裁撤、精簡政府，馬政府還真的去做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在民進黨上來之後不得了，這個機關成立、那個機關成立，成立了一大堆，有的有必要成立，我贊成，可是我今天就要跟你講標準的問題，今天擺明非常鮮活的例子就在現在的狀況，你對運動部就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、員額不應膨脹的標準存在。我就問你，現在運動發展署的員額，你剛剛講過是135人，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：然後變成體育部之後，分年階段要增加到400人，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是部跟署加起來是400人。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，400人，橫空就增加兩百多人啦！預算就200億嘛！我就跟你講，今天說你違反了剛剛講的預算不要膨脹、員額不要膨脹的原因，是因為運動部重要。我接受這個論點，我接受啊！可是同樣的狀況，你就跟我講新住民不重要，不是嗎？一模一樣的邏輯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我從來沒有講過新住民不重要。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你沒有講過新住民不重要，但是你的作法跟民進黨政府的作法就告訴大家新住民不重要，這不是你講的文字上的問題。","我再跟你講，剛剛在詢答的過程當中，我也看到新聞說賴清德總統要延緩新住民發展署，你剛剛否認說賴清德總統沒有這個要求，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有、沒有。"],["羅委員智強：可是我要講的是，即便他沒有這個要求，你們的作法也滿像今天賴清德總統有這個要求的。我只問你一件事，你覺得新住民發展署什麼時候會成立？需要多久時間？在不動機關上限的情況之下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我剛才在黃國昌委員質詢時已經答應了，我們會行文給內政部，請內政部加速來調整。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，我就是要跟你講這個問題，你答不出時間，然後你又要行文內政部。這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方！今天單位有內政部嗎？我連要問內政部，今天都沒辦法問，我想請內政部跟你在這邊當場協調都沒辦法，有內政部嗎？有沒有？今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法，今天還有民眾黨麥玉珍的案子，有涉及新住民的問題在裡面，行政院秘書長不到，內政部也不來，我今天說你們瞧不起新住民，對不起新住民，到底哪一點說錯了？完全沒說錯！你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民，我還是跟人事長講，你在這個地方，我必須先說一句話，人事長本來在你的機關本位，你就要守住預算的員額編制，你就是不希望政府膨脹，這是你的本分，沒錯！所以我沒有怪你，可是今天光你在這邊當箭靶子，我覺得就是對新住民非常不尊重，因為很多問題，你還得行文內政部回答，你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清。我還是說一句話，真的表達對新住民的支持、認同的話，你最快的方式就比照運動部，運動部是增加一個部會，它是增加一個三級機關，層次還是差很多。如果一個部會重要可以增加，預算員額可以擴大、倍增，為什麼新住民發展署這樣一個三級機關，你要卡東卡西？到現在你也講不出來，籌備處要籌備10年嗎？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林倩綺","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等\n17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法\n第三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員林宜瑾等19 人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院\n組織法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組\n織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關\n組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政\n機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央\n行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員陳冠\n廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案；三、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分；四、審查 114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}}