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\"end\": 147.025, \"text\": \"第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 120.024, \"end\": 120.124, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 120.124, \"end\": 120.224, \"score\": 0.565}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 120.224, \"end\": 120.365, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 120.365, \"end\": 120.585, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 120.585, \"end\": 120.825, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 120.825, \"end\": 122.146, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 122.146, \"end\": 122.346, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 122.346, \"end\": 122.967, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 122.967, \"end\": 123.327, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 123.327, \"end\": 123.487, 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\"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,770 --> 00:00:02,835\n謝謝主席那我們有請蔡局長\n\n2\n00:00:12,537 --> 00:00:33,382\n今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到\n\n3\n00:00:37,723 --> 00:01:03,199\n美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告\n\n4\n00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:30,019\n那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已\n\n5\n00:01:33,021 --> 00:01:59,384\n那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分\n\n6\n00:02:00,024 --> 00:02:27,025\n第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題\n\n7\n00:02:28,627 --> 00:02:44,344\n這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用\n\n8\n00:02:45,225 --> 00:03:02,653\n那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌\n\n9\n00:03:07,435 --> 00:03:21,647\n那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法\n\n10\n00:03:26,030 --> 00:03:51,356\n那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清\n\n11\n00:03:51,756 --> 00:04:07,712\n但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下\n\n12\n00:04:08,232 --> 00:04:25,240\n我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話\n\n13\n00:04:27,361 --> 00:04:47,997\n然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害\n\n14\n00:04:49,218 --> 00:05:04,666\n第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉\n\n15\n00:05:17,193 --> 00:05:24,761\n可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣\n\n16\n00:05:38,775 --> 00:05:56,244\n對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的\n\n17\n00:05:56,744 --> 00:06:00,466\n國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法\n\n18\n00:06:23,580 --> 00:06:49,918\n對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的\n\n19\n00:06:50,838 --> 00:07:11,890\n這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散\n\n20\n00:07:19,795 --> 00:07:36,532\n我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生\n\n21\n00:07:36,932 --> 00:08:03,569\n這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個\n\n22\n00:08:05,170 --> 00:08:05,530\n對對沒有錯對應該的\n\n23\n00:08:22,807 --> 00:08:43,767\n好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n770\t2835\t謝謝主席 那我們有請蔡局長\n12537\t33382\t今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到\n37723\t63199\t美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告\n65820\t90019\t那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已\n93021\t119384\t那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分\n120024\t147025\t第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題\n148627\t164344\t這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用\n165225\t182653\t那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌\n187435\t201647\t那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法\n206030\t231356\t那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清\n231756\t247712\t但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下\n248232\t265240\t我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話\n267361\t287997\t然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害\n289218\t304666\t第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉\n317193\t324761\t可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣\n338775\t356244\t對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的\n356744\t360466\t國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法\n383580\t409918\t對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的\n410838\t431890\t這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散\n439795\t456532\t我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生\n456932\t483569\t這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個\n485170\t485530\t對對沒有錯對應該的\n502807\t523767\t好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那我們有請蔡局長\n今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到\n美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告\n那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已\n那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分\n第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題\n這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用\n那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌\n那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法\n那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清\n但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下\n我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話\n然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害\n第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉\n可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣\n對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的\n國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法\n對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的\n這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散\n我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生\n這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個\n對對沒有錯對應該的\n好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.770 --> 00:02.835\n謝謝主席那我們有請蔡局長\n\n00:12.537 --> 00:33.382\n今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到\n\n00:37.723 --> 01:03.199\n美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告\n\n01:05.820 --> 01:30.019\n那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已\n\n01:33.021 --> 01:59.384\n那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分\n\n02:00.024 --> 02:27.025\n第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題\n\n02:28.627 --> 02:44.344\n這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用\n\n02:45.225 --> 03:02.653\n那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌\n\n03:07.435 --> 03:21.647\n那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法\n\n03:26.030 --> 03:51.356\n那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清\n\n03:51.756 --> 04:07.712\n但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下\n\n04:08.232 --> 04:25.240\n我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話\n\n04:27.361 --> 04:47.997\n然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害\n\n04:49.218 --> 05:04.666\n第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉\n\n05:17.193 --> 05:24.761\n可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣\n\n05:38.775 --> 05:56.244\n對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的\n\n05:56.744 --> 06:00.466\n國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法\n\n06:23.580 --> 06:49.918\n對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的\n\n06:50.838 --> 07:11.890\n這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散\n\n07:19.795 --> 07:36.532\n我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生\n\n07:36.932 --> 08:03.569\n這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個\n\n08:05.170 --> 08:05.530\n對對沒有錯對應該的\n\n08:22.807 --> 08:43.767\n好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.77,"end":2.835,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請蔡局長"},{"start":12.537,"end":33.382,"text":"今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到"},{"start":37.723,"end":63.199,"text":"美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告"},{"start":65.82,"end":90.019,"text":"那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已"},{"start":93.021,"end":119.384,"text":"那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分"},{"start":120.024,"end":147.025,"text":"第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題"},{"start":148.627,"end":164.344,"text":"這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用"},{"start":165.225,"end":182.653,"text":"那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌"},{"start":187.435,"end":201.647,"text":"那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法"},{"start":206.03,"end":231.356,"text":"那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清"},{"start":231.756,"end":247.712,"text":"但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下"},{"start":248.232,"end":265.24,"text":"我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話"},{"start":267.361,"end":287.997,"text":"然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害"},{"start":289.218,"end":304.666,"text":"第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉"},{"start":317.193,"end":324.761,"text":"可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣"},{"start":338.775,"end":356.244,"text":"對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的"},{"start":356.744,"end":360.466,"text":"國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法"},{"start":383.58,"end":409.918,"text":"對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的"},{"start":410.838,"end":431.89,"text":"這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散"},{"start":439.795,"end":456.532,"text":"我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生"},{"start":456.932,"end":483.569,"text":"這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個"},{"start":485.17,"end":485.53,"text":"對對沒有錯對應該的"},{"start":502.807,"end":523.767,"text":"好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我們有請蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天我們主要是針對國安局預算書公開的部分，我看了一下在113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用部分，當時有一個附帶決議寫到，美國國安局、國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心，來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展，美國國防部也在112年8月成立了AI工作小組，用在包含國防科技發展、國家維護等等，當時就希望你們三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出報告。你們也寫了一些辦理的情形，在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安，國安局要招募反制人才，可是我們在你們今年預算書的公開部分裡面，相關的只有看到了其他網路空間攻防培訓場域統裁、演習管理、軟體維護等經費1,100萬而已。我想問一下，在明年（114年）的預算，有關於去年大家提的附帶決議，就是所謂AI中心等等相關的一些預算，為什麼沒有在裡面做相關的提供？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，就AI的部分，也是這一、兩年來我們建置能量的一個主要重點，委員剛剛有提到，一方面是在人才培訓的部分，第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們情工作業的部分，這部分我們內部有成立，不同的單位都有不同的AI小組，也鼓勵不同單位的AI小組可以進行橫向的經驗分享。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這些AI小組研究過後，對於實際在臺灣有了這些AI的假訊息，他們有什麼樣的功能？以及你們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個部分我們在AI的應用上，一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的研析，因為AI的作業速度會比較快，它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析，人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡，這是第一部分。第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用，可能委員也比較關注到很多網路上一些AI假訊息的傳散，我們運用新的數據技術，可以去了解到這些假的AI帳號是怎麼生成的，它又用哪些不斷產製的AI文字，不斷地透過異常帳號來傳散，整個網路運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌。"],["徐委員巧芯：掌握到之後，後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置？或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的連合？這個部分你們的銜接到底做得好還是不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分大概分兩個層面來看，第一個部分，假如AI的傳散有涉及到違法，這個部分我們會移請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦。第二個部分，假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平臺本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話，我們會很積極地跟社群平臺做檢舉，讓社群平臺可以把它下架。第三個部分，假如AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的，我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息的快速澄清。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是局長，就如您剛剛說的，因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的，所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多，我們先放一下影片給大家看，這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜，他就被放出一個影片，大家可以看一下。我要先講，這是假訊息，他並沒有做這樣的發言，可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面，但他講的話、底下的字幕以及他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音，但是他私下從來沒有講過這個話，然後這個影音就在LINE上面、網路上面很快速地轉傳。高委員自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事了，可是它的轉傳速度仍然是非常快，而且這一、兩週以來不只這一件，還有好幾件，對於當事人來說，第一個，是造成一種傷害；第二個，因為這個AI做得非常像，就算對口型也對不太出來，所以有很多民眾是在誤會之下才去做轉傳的，他並沒有惡意，但他真的相信高委員有說過這些話，所以他們轉傳之後，有可能從受害者變成加害者。也就是說，高委員可能會試圖想要……他當然沒有，但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉，可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意，因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的影片。","所以我們想要問的是，針對這一、兩週以來類似這樣的攻擊，您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI深偽攻擊？國安局又有什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在臺灣？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個影片我們有在網路上注意到，似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片，再進行後製來變更他講話的內容，這是第一部分的說明。第二部分，我們有注意到傳散的管道，一個部分是委員提到LINE封閉群組裡面快速的傳散；另一部分，我們也注意到在TikTok上面有一些異常帳號也不斷地在進行傳散，而且這些異常帳號背後的IP位置不斷地在變換更動，這代表比較像是專業、有系統、有組織地在傳散這樣的影片。第三……"],["徐委員巧芯：那國安局具體的作法能夠怎麼做？我比較想知道要怎麼做，因為這些管道我都清楚，但我要知道的是國安局具體的作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們在掌握相關的狀況部分，剛才有說明到，網絡傳散的管道是我們有責任要來確認的，假如他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話，當然我們也會尊重當事人是不是有一些法律的作為，我們相關的司法警察機關或國安單位是有相關的系統可以來辨識，證明他的影音是偽製的，這個部分到時候在法律的攻防或偵辦的過程當中，就……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這樣的話，局長，比如假設我是高委員，因為有人傳散這個，而我走入司法去提告了，可是這些民眾也不是惡意的，他們也是相信了這些……他不知道、他無法去辨認深偽，他會從受害者變成加害者，這方面國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷地傳散？包含在預算裡面的編列，還有其實這個在過去……我特別講我們在113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了，請問這附帶決議你們處理得如何？在去年一整年，乃至於明年來說，你們要怎麼樣做規劃去抑制這類事情的發生？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是剛剛在口頭報告的時候有提到，未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對臺認知作戰滲透作為的揭露會是本局一個重要的工作。不過也要特別謝謝委員，可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，因為……"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這個也是一個社會教育、社會提醒的過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我建議你們要有一個公開的平臺，不管是以國安局為主，或者是跟其他的單位共同來協作，並不一定要由國安局作為主要的公開單位……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們可以跟其他的部會，比如數位發展部來協助，但是至少要有一個平臺去說明有哪一些是Deepfake假訊息，讓大家能夠有所蹤，而不是變成受害者轉為加害者這樣的情形，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的，好。"],["徐委員巧芯：那就麻煩局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究，因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片，非常多在網路上轉傳的狀況，我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假，所以要請國安局在AI的深偽部分再進行進一步的精進，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來努力，也謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題，提醒大家來注意，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。局長，徐委員剛才質詢這個題目很重要、很好，因為任何人都有可能成為受害者，這跟黨派無關，任何人都有可能被偽造，國家元首可能被偽造而下達錯誤的指令，天災的時候可能被偽造。所以針對剛才徐委員提出來的，我希望看到國安局的處理不是研究辦理，如果確定是偽造的，就像美國那個講的，要先辨識完，你要有delete的能力，你不應該讓錯誤的東西持續傷害任何人，那個人不管是誰，他只要是被偽造的，我們應該要有個機制，要讓他從網路上……這個錯誤的東西不能再散播，否則到時再拿掉就太慢了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！而且……"],["主席：這個給你做參考。"],["徐委員巧芯：受害者會變成加害者，轉傳的人……"],["主席：我們委員會也許可以提個案子，要求你們要正視新科技帶來的危害，這是對個人、對國家安全整個都會有影響，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：下禮拜就有一個專報是要講這個。"],["主席：對，所以請注意，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答，請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}}