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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 517.696, \"end\": 517.776, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 517.776, \"end\": 517.796, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 517.796, \"end\": 517.816, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,191 --> 00:00:00,675\n你好我們請局長來局長請\n\n2\n00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:16,061\n國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算\n\n3\n00:00:35,686 --> 00:00:57,848\n那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對\n\n4\n00:00:58,188 --> 00:01:26,557\n但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對我們都有審是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算\n\n5\n00:01:27,461 --> 00:01:41,642\n你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定\n\n6\n00:01:43,044 --> 00:01:57,737\n現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題\n\n7\n00:02:26,135 --> 00:02:40,729\n可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛\n\n8\n00:02:41,449 --> 00:02:44,451\n國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣\n\n9\n00:03:11,812 --> 00:03:29,382\n提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:31,323 --> 00:03:31,563\n貴院相關的安排\n\n11\n00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:54,983\n這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?\n\n12\n00:03:54,983 --> 00:03:58,568\n要能夠來對接,這需要對接。怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?\n\n13\n00:03:58,568 --> 00:04:05,176\n就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:05,977 --> 00:04:06,137\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n15\n00:04:46,135 --> 00:05:04,310\n所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分\n\n16\n00:05:05,191 --> 00:05:07,693\n昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊\n\n17\n00:05:29,852 --> 00:05:52,535\n國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度\n\n18\n00:05:52,995 --> 00:05:56,716\n昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級\n\n19\n00:06:25,461 --> 00:06:43,448\n國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到\n\n20\n00:06:43,968 --> 00:07:10,897\n所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛\n\n21\n00:07:12,579 --> 00:07:18,167\n如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:20,046 --> 00:07:45,047\n如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社\n\n23\n00:07:46,088 --> 00:08:06,443\n這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到\n\n24\n00:08:07,711 --> 00:08:31,792\n明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的\n\n25\n00:08:34,934 --> 00:08:37,816\n我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n191\t675\t你好 我們請局長來 局長請\n7759\t16061\t國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算\n35686\t57848\t那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對\n58188\t86557\t但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣 機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對 我們都有審 是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛 是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算\n87461\t101642\t你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定\n103044\t117737\t現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題\n127466\t146015\t．．．．．\n146135\t160729\t可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛\n161449\t164451\t國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣\n191812\t209382\t提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣\n211323\t211563\t貴院相關的安排\n229876\t234983\t這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?\n234983\t238568\t要能夠來對接,這需要對接。 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?\n238568\t245176\t就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?\n245977\t246137\t﹚陳冠廷\n269974\t286015\t．．．．．．．．．．．\n286135\t304310\t所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分\n305191\t307693\t昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊\n329852\t352535\t國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度\n352995\t356716\t昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級\n385461\t403448\t國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到\n403968\t430897\t所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛\n432579\t438167\t如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?\n440046\t465047\t如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社\n466088\t486443\t這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到\n487711\t511792\t明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的\n514934\t517816\t我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒\n","txt":"你好 我們請局長來 局長請\n國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算\n那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對\n但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣 機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對 我們都有審 是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛 是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算\n你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定\n現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題\n．．．．．\n可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛\n國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣\n提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣\n貴院相關的安排\n這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?\n要能夠來對接,這需要對接。 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?\n就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?\n﹚陳冠廷\n．．．．．．．．．．．\n所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分\n昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊\n國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度\n昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級\n國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到\n所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛\n如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?\n如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社\n這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到\n明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的\n我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.191 --> 00:00.675\n你好我們請局長來局長請\n\n00:07.759 --> 00:16.061\n國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算\n\n00:35.686 --> 00:57.848\n那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對\n\n00:58.188 --> 01:26.557\n但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對我們都有審是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算\n\n01:27.461 --> 01:41.642\n你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定\n\n01:43.044 --> 01:57.737\n現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題\n\n02:26.135 --> 02:40.729\n可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛\n\n02:41.449 --> 02:44.451\n國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣\n\n03:11.812 --> 03:29.382\n提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣\n\n03:31.323 --> 03:31.563\n貴院相關的安排\n\n03:49.876 --> 03:54.983\n這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?\n\n03:54.983 --> 03:58.568\n要能夠來對接,這需要對接。怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?\n\n03:58.568 --> 04:05.176\n就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?\n\n04:05.977 --> 04:06.137\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n04:46.135 --> 05:04.310\n所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分\n\n05:05.191 --> 05:07.693\n昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊\n\n05:29.852 --> 05:52.535\n國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度\n\n05:52.995 --> 05:56.716\n昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級\n\n06:25.461 --> 06:43.448\n國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到\n\n06:43.968 --> 07:10.897\n所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛\n\n07:12.579 --> 07:18.167\n如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?\n\n07:20.046 --> 07:45.047\n如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社\n\n07:46.088 --> 08:06.443\n這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到\n\n08:07.711 --> 08:31.792\n明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的\n\n08:34.934 --> 08:37.816\n我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.191,"end":0.675,"text":"你好 我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":7.759,"end":16.061,"text":"國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算"},{"start":35.686,"end":57.848,"text":"那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對"},{"start":58.188,"end":86.557,"text":"但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣 機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對 我們都有審 是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛 是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算"},{"start":87.461,"end":101.642,"text":"你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定"},{"start":103.044,"end":117.737,"text":"現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題"},{"start":127.466,"end":146.015,"text":"．．．．．"},{"start":146.135,"end":160.729,"text":"可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛"},{"start":161.449,"end":164.451,"text":"國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣"},{"start":191.812,"end":209.382,"text":"提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣"},{"start":211.323,"end":211.563,"text":"貴院相關的安排"},{"start":229.876,"end":234.983,"text":"這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?"},{"start":234.983,"end":238.568,"text":"要能夠來對接,這需要對接。 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?"},{"start":238.568,"end":245.176,"text":"就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?"},{"start":245.977,"end":246.137,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":269.974,"end":286.015,"text":"．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":286.135,"end":304.31,"text":"所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分"},{"start":305.191,"end":307.693,"text":"昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊"},{"start":329.852,"end":352.535,"text":"國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度"},{"start":352.995,"end":356.716,"text":"昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級"},{"start":385.461,"end":403.448,"text":"國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到"},{"start":403.968,"end":430.897,"text":"所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛"},{"start":432.579,"end":438.167,"text":"如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?"},{"start":440.046,"end":465.047,"text":"如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社"},{"start":466.088,"end":486.443,"text":"這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到"},{"start":487.711,"end":511.792,"text":"明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的"},{"start":514.934,"end":517.816,"text":"我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時33分）你好，我們請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長早。局長，今天是國安局114年的預算報告，我們知道有分公開跟機密，但是今天的機密報告裡面，我必須強調一下，立法院的預算中心裡面有提到國安局公開預算占年度預算的比例僅不到兩成，相比之下，國防部跟外交部的機密占比分別是5.42%跟6.01%，國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才機密的報告大概是10分鐘、15分鐘，然後接下來就把這些東西收回去。局長，你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎？還是局長要說你們會派員到我們的辦公室去一一的解釋，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，都會，跟委員說明一下，因為機密報告……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為你會到我們的辦公室去跟我們說明，我是聽到很多不同的單位在講這件事情，但是我想請教一下，到我們單位來說明的時候，是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該是這樣，機密報告只有立法委員本人。"],["陳委員冠廷：那國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們都有審……"],["陳委員冠廷：是你寫的嗎？當然不是嘛！是整個幕僚機構寫的。同樣的，我們的整個質詢難道是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎？當然是整個辦公室嘛！我們的機密層級是非常混亂的，就是說你認為一個立法委員可以把國安局八成的預算……你們跟我報告，然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來，我的這些國會助理不能看，為什麼？因為沒有相關的……我一直講機密的揭密層級，我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的設定，現在就還是沒有。","我上任到現在，這件事情從國防部、外交部到國安局，我們提過了幾次，每次你們都說現在妥善的在研究，會提出一個更好的方式，跟美國這種針對機密風險的層級去接軌。這個東西我從2016年在國安會到現在已經聽了大概八年到九年了，八年到九年之後，我們還是同樣回歸這樣的議題，所有的東西都說機密的部分你們會跟委員報告，問題是我一個人，你要給我看國安局數十億、數百億的預算，然後我其他的同仁不能，所以你必須要劃分，包含國會幕僚都必須要有他的揭密層級的確認。這個部分，局長可不可以來檢討一下？就是說這到底是誰要負責？國安局、調查局還是國防部？我無法知道，因為每一個人都說內部有自己的機制，你做好你的機制，他做好他的機制，但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛，我自己都不知道我的揭密層級在哪裡，沒有辦法定期的去審視、沒有辦法定期的去更新我們揭密層級的話，那你所謂的守密、你的機密都沒有意義。局長可不可以針對這個簡單回應一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，簡單說明一下，因為國安的工作包括國安、國防、外交，確實它有高度的機敏性，就本局來講，會編列機密預算主要是依照國安局組織法第九條的規定，這是法律的授權，至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣，也可以提供一些國外的經驗給委員參考。以歐洲國家來講，幾乎是百分之百的機密，沒有對外公開的公開預算，歐洲國家是這樣的作法；就美國來講的話，我們公開的預算已經是美國情報單位公開預算的好幾倍了。這大概是有國際的慣例。"],["陳委員冠廷：請問他們針對這個部分是怎麼樣的監督？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員所提到另外一部分，就是所謂的security 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