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\"text\": \"所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 811.929, \"end\": 812.069, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 812.069, \"end\": 812.149, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 812.149, \"end\": 813.371, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 813.371, \"end\": 813.731, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 813.731, \"end\": 814.011, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 814.011, \"end\": 814.211, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 814.211, \"end\": 814.352, \"score\": 0.518}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 814.352, \"end\": 814.512, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 814.512, \"end\": 814.752, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"洞\", \"start\": 814.752, \"end\": 814.932, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 814.932, \"end\": 815.132, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"堵\", 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00:00:08,719\n謝謝主席,是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。\n\n2\n00:00:11,716 --> 00:00:34,455\n林委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做\n\n3\n00:00:39,019 --> 00:00:43,700\n社會所高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在獻立法院於不義獻我們衛環委員會於不義的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個衛環委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正\n\n4\n00:01:08,288 --> 00:01:24,181\n可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你限我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的\n\n5\n00:01:26,005 --> 00:01:51,665\n這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去行你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查\n\n6\n00:01:54,887 --> 00:02:02,128\n媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。\n\n7\n00:02:03,786 --> 00:02:27,726\n媒體披露以後你就說好啊旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了幫助產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈\n\n8\n00:02:28,847 --> 00:02:36,551\n您們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉,不應該開放的開放了,等到有人反彈,然後你再說,你再縮回去,我就有點懷疑這是彭市彭部長的風格嗎?報告委員不是的啦。你一向走來一直都這樣子,本來我對你是高度肯定,因為你認真,而且看起來認真又專業,而且好像有心要做一點作為。\n\n9\n00:02:54,181 --> 00:03:12,959\n可是在這種在在大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣\n\n10\n00:03:14,635 --> 00:03:40,339\n謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了要下放了\n\n11\n00:03:43,139 --> 00:04:01,139\n所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化\n\n12\n00:04:02,062 --> 00:04:13,648\n部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們市長來回答不用我幫你回答\n\n13\n00:04:25,265 --> 00:04:38,334\n事實上呢你們說要健全環評審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣20幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是\n\n14\n00:04:55,966 --> 00:05:09,098\n這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。\n\n15\n00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:41,904\n第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議\n\n16\n00:05:43,044 --> 00:06:02,769\n仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。\n\n17\n00:06:04,449 --> 00:06:24,245\n然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求\n\n18\n00:06:25,186 --> 00:06:51,994\n就將案件放下這個地方他們不同意宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們這升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方\n\n19\n00:06:52,734 --> 00:07:20,548\n你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業\n\n20\n00:07:22,069 --> 00:07:43,111\n還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以\n\n21\n00:07:43,772 --> 00:07:54,155\n你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講\n\n22\n00:08:09,437 --> 00:08:30,803\n一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔\n\n23\n00:08:34,182 --> 00:08:44,886\n厲方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛形細則以後大開後門人家的質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套\n\n24\n00:09:04,370 --> 00:09:19,417\n懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎\n\n25\n00:09:20,984 --> 00:09:45,552\n你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府\n\n26\n00:09:47,186 --> 00:10:01,464\n當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力\n\n27\n00:10:02,602 --> 00:10:03,302\n我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔\n\n28\n00:10:29,117 --> 00:10:43,738\n開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。取台東縣政府這個例子可以證明,台東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂紀不依法行政。\n\n29\n00:10:44,759 --> 00:11:02,135\n而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指\n\n30\n00:11:05,538 --> 00:11:31,913\n程序黑箱、拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評、環工、土木背景沒有海洋生態、沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省\n\n31\n00:11:33,494 --> 00:11:41,302\n現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說\n\n32\n00:11:46,750 --> 00:12:03,144\n這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。\n\n33\n00:12:06,056 --> 00:12:30,666\n報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失慮不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我未來環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子齊上滿下你知道這一些\n\n34\n00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:51,430\n你要打算放光環評標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。\n\n35\n00:12:52,438 --> 00:13:16,796\n然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都收回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都收回來了\n\n36\n00:13:17,971 --> 00:13:29,266\n還會不會有爭議啊就是說台中縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟\n\n37\n00:13:31,929 --> 00:13:53,111\n所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱\n\n38\n00:13:53,792 --> 00:14:18,272\n而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了\n\n39\n00:14:29,726 --> 00:14:52,415\n所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼\n\n40\n00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:55,730\n公務及基金預算\n\n41\n00:15:13,052 --> 00:15:26,851\n而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府\n\n42\n00:15:29,254 --> 00:15:43,653\n兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。\n\n43\n00:15:45,540 --> 00:15:52,347\n啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過\n\n44\n00:16:04,258 --> 00:16:15,573\n你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞\n\n45\n00:16:18,441 --> 00:16:38,325\n報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?\n\n46\n00:16:42,133 --> 00:16:46,378\n你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸\n\n47\n00:16:59,634 --> 00:17:11,724\n我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼\n\n48\n00:17:30,987 --> 00:17:52,940\n蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得\n\n49\n00:18:19,949 --> 00:18:46,803\n你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到\n\n50\n00:18:47,623 --> 00:19:12,401\n地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢\n\n51\n00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:14,781\ndisciplinary?\n\n52\n00:19:14,781 --> 00:19:42,458\n那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府\n\n53\n00:19:44,236 --> 00:19:56,828\n這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制\n\n54\n00:20:18,855 --> 00:20:35,450\n參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼\n\n55\n00:20:39,827 --> 00:20:55,697\n您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。\n\n56\n00:20:56,437 --> 00:21:21,410\n你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理\n\n57\n00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:27,354\n我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4833\t8719\t謝謝主席,是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。\n11716\t34455\t林委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做\n39019\t43700\t社會所高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在獻立法院於不義獻我們衛環委員會於不義的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個衛環委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正\n68288\t84181\t可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你限我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的\n86005\t111665\t這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去行你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查\n114887\t122128\t媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。\n123786\t147726\t媒體披露以後你就說好啊旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了幫助產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈\n148847\t156551\t您們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉,不應該開放的開放了,等到有人反彈,然後你再說,你再縮回去,我就有點懷疑這是彭市彭部長的風格嗎?報告委員不是的啦。你一向走來一直都這樣子,本來我對你是高度肯定,因為你認真,而且看起來認真又專業,而且好像有心要做一點作為。\n174181\t192959\t可是在這種在在大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣\n194635\t220339\t謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了要下放了\n223139\t241139\t所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化\n242062\t253648\t部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們市長來回答不用我幫你回答\n265265\t278334\t事實上呢你們說要健全環評審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣20幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是\n295966\t309098\t這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。\n314636\t341904\t第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議\n343044\t362769\t仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。\n364449\t384245\t然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求\n385186\t411994\t就將案件放下這個地方他們不同意宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們這升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方\n412734\t440548\t你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業\n442069\t463111\t還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以\n463772\t474155\t你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講\n489437\t510803\t一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔\n514182\t524886\t厲方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛形細則以後大開後門人家的質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套\n544370\t559417\t懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎\n560984\t585552\t你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府\n587186\t601464\t當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力\n602602\t603302\t我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔\n629117\t643738\t開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。取台東縣政府這個例子可以證明,台東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂紀不依法行政。\n644759\t662135\t而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指\n665538\t691913\t程序黑箱、拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評、環工、土木背景沒有海洋生態、沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省\n693494\t701302\t現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說\n706750\t723144\t這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。\n726056\t750666\t報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失慮不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我未來環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子齊上滿下你知道這一些\n753700\t771430\t你要打算放光環評標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。\n772438\t796796\t然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都收回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都收回來了\n797971\t809266\t還會不會有爭議啊就是說台中縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟\n811929\t833111\t所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱\n833792\t858272\t而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了\n869726\t892415\t所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼\n895250\t895730\t公務及基金預算\n913052\t926851\t而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府\n929254\t943653\t兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。\n945540\t952347\t啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過\n964258\t975573\t你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞\n978441\t998325\t報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?\n1002133\t1006378\t你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸\n1019634\t1031724\t我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼\n1050987\t1072940\t蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得\n1080384\t1099770\t議員議員議員\n1099949\t1126803\t你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到\n1127623\t1152401\t地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢\n1153800\t1154781\tdisciplinary?\n1154781\t1182458\t那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府\n1184236\t1196828\t這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制\n1198029\t1218234\t議員議員議員議員\n1218855\t1235450\t參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼\n1239827\t1255697\t您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。\n1256437\t1281410\t你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理\n1281870\t1287354\t我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席,是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。\n林委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做\n社會所高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在獻立法院於不義獻我們衛環委員會於不義的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個衛環委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正\n可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你限我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的\n這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去行你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查\n媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。\n媒體披露以後你就說好啊旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了幫助產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈\n您們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉,不應該開放的開放了,等到有人反彈,然後你再說,你再縮回去,我就有點懷疑這是彭市彭部長的風格嗎?報告委員不是的啦。你一向走來一直都這樣子,本來我對你是高度肯定,因為你認真,而且看起來認真又專業,而且好像有心要做一點作為。\n可是在這種在在大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣\n謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了要下放了\n所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化\n部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們市長來回答不用我幫你回答\n事實上呢你們說要健全環評審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣20幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是\n這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。\n第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議\n仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。\n然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求\n就將案件放下這個地方他們不同意宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們這升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方\n你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業\n還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以\n你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講\n一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔\n厲方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛形細則以後大開後門人家的質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套\n懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎\n你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府\n當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力\n我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔\n開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。取台東縣政府這個例子可以證明,台東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂紀不依法行政。\n而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指\n程序黑箱、拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評、環工、土木背景沒有海洋生態、沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省\n現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說\n這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。\n報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失慮不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我未來環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子齊上滿下你知道這一些\n你要打算放光環評標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。\n然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都收回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都收回來了\n還會不會有爭議啊就是說台中縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟\n所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱\n而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了\n所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼\n公務及基金預算\n而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府\n兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。\n啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過\n你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞\n報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?\n你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸\n我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼\n蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得\n議員議員議員\n你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到\n地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢\ndisciplinary?\n那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府\n這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制\n議員議員議員議員\n參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼\n您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。\n你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理\n我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.833 --> 00:08.719\n謝謝主席,是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。\n\n00:11.716 --> 00:34.455\n林委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做\n\n00:39.019 --> 00:43.700\n社會所高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在獻立法院於不義獻我們衛環委員會於不義的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個衛環委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正\n\n01:08.288 --> 01:24.181\n可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你限我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的\n\n01:26.005 --> 01:51.665\n這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去行你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查\n\n01:54.887 --> 02:02.128\n媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。\n\n02:03.786 --> 02:27.726\n媒體披露以後你就說好啊旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了幫助產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈\n\n02:28.847 --> 02:36.551\n您們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉,不應該開放的開放了,等到有人反彈,然後你再說,你再縮回去,我就有點懷疑這是彭市彭部長的風格嗎?報告委員不是的啦。你一向走來一直都這樣子,本來我對你是高度肯定,因為你認真,而且看起來認真又專業,而且好像有心要做一點作為。\n\n02:54.181 --> 03:12.959\n可是在這種在在大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣\n\n03:14.635 --> 03:40.339\n謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了要下放了\n\n03:43.139 --> 04:01.139\n所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化\n\n04:02.062 --> 04:13.648\n部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們市長來回答不用我幫你回答\n\n04:25.265 --> 04:38.334\n事實上呢你們說要健全環評審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣20幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是\n\n04:55.966 --> 05:09.098\n這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。\n\n05:14.636 --> 05:41.904\n第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議\n\n05:43.044 --> 06:02.769\n仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。\n\n06:04.449 --> 06:24.245\n然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求\n\n06:25.186 --> 06:51.994\n就將案件放下這個地方他們不同意宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們這升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方\n\n06:52.734 --> 07:20.548\n你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業\n\n07:22.069 --> 07:43.111\n還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以\n\n07:43.772 --> 07:54.155\n你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講\n\n08:09.437 --> 08:30.803\n一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔\n\n08:34.182 --> 08:44.886\n厲方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛形細則以後大開後門人家的質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套\n\n09:04.370 --> 09:19.417\n懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎\n\n09:20.984 --> 09:45.552\n你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府\n\n09:47.186 --> 10:01.464\n當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力\n\n10:02.602 --> 10:03.302\n我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔\n\n10:29.117 --> 10:43.738\n開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。取台東縣政府這個例子可以證明,台東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂紀不依法行政。\n\n10:44.759 --> 11:02.135\n而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指\n\n11:05.538 --> 11:31.913\n程序黑箱、拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評、環工、土木背景沒有海洋生態、沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省\n\n11:33.494 --> 11:41.302\n現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說\n\n11:46.750 --> 12:03.144\n這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。\n\n12:06.056 --> 12:30.666\n報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失慮不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我未來環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子齊上滿下你知道這一些\n\n12:33.700 --> 12:51.430\n你要打算放光環評標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。\n\n12:52.438 --> 13:16.796\n然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都收回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都收回來了\n\n13:17.971 --> 13:29.266\n還會不會有爭議啊就是說台中縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟\n\n13:31.929 --> 13:53.111\n所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱\n\n13:53.792 --> 14:18.272\n而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了\n\n14:29.726 --> 14:52.415\n所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼\n\n14:55.250 --> 14:55.730\n公務及基金預算\n\n15:13.052 --> 15:26.851\n而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府\n\n15:29.254 --> 15:43.653\n兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。\n\n15:45.540 --> 15:52.347\n啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過\n\n16:04.258 --> 16:15.573\n你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞\n\n16:18.441 --> 16:38.325\n報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?\n\n16:42.133 --> 16:46.378\n你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸\n\n16:59.634 --> 17:11.724\n我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼\n\n17:30.987 --> 17:52.940\n蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得\n\n18:19.949 --> 18:46.803\n你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到\n\n18:47.623 --> 19:12.401\n地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢\n\n19:13.800 --> 19:14.781\ndisciplinary?\n\n19:14.781 --> 19:42.458\n那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府\n\n19:44.236 --> 19:56.828\n這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制\n\n20:18.855 --> 20:35.450\n參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼\n\n20:39.827 --> 20:55.697\n您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。\n\n20:56.437 --> 21:21.410\n你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理\n\n21:21.870 --> 21:27.354\n我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.833,"end":8.719,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。"},{"start":11.716,"end":34.455,"text":"林委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做"},{"start":39.019,"end":43.7,"text":"社會所高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在獻立法院於不義獻我們衛環委員會於不義的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個衛環委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正"},{"start":68.288,"end":84.181,"text":"可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你限我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的"},{"start":86.005,"end":111.665,"text":"這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去行你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查"},{"start":114.887,"end":122.128,"text":"媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。"},{"start":123.786,"end":147.726,"text":"媒體披露以後你就說好啊旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了幫助產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈"},{"start":148.847,"end":156.551,"text":"您們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉,不應該開放的開放了,等到有人反彈,然後你再說,你再縮回去,我就有點懷疑這是彭市彭部長的風格嗎?報告委員不是的啦。你一向走來一直都這樣子,本來我對你是高度肯定,因為你認真,而且看起來認真又專業,而且好像有心要做一點作為。"},{"start":174.181,"end":192.959,"text":"可是在這種在在大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣"},{"start":194.635,"end":220.339,"text":"謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了要下放了"},{"start":223.139,"end":241.139,"text":"所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化"},{"start":242.062,"end":253.648,"text":"部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們市長來回答不用我幫你回答"},{"start":265.265,"end":278.334,"text":"事實上呢你們說要健全環評審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣20幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是"},{"start":295.966,"end":309.098,"text":"這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。"},{"start":314.636,"end":341.904,"text":"第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議"},{"start":343.044,"end":362.769,"text":"仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。"},{"start":364.449,"end":384.245,"text":"然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求"},{"start":385.186,"end":411.994,"text":"就將案件放下這個地方他們不同意宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們這升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方"},{"start":412.734,"end":440.548,"text":"你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業"},{"start":442.069,"end":463.111,"text":"還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以"},{"start":463.772,"end":474.155,"text":"你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講"},{"start":489.437,"end":510.803,"text":"一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔"},{"start":514.182,"end":524.886,"text":"厲方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛形細則以後大開後門人家的質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套"},{"start":544.37,"end":559.417,"text":"懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎"},{"start":560.984,"end":585.552,"text":"你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府"},{"start":587.186,"end":601.464,"text":"當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力"},{"start":602.602,"end":603.302,"text":"我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔"},{"start":629.117,"end":643.738,"text":"開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。取台東縣政府這個例子可以證明,台東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂紀不依法行政。"},{"start":644.759,"end":662.135,"text":"而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指"},{"start":665.538,"end":691.913,"text":"程序黑箱、拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評、環工、土木背景沒有海洋生態、沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省"},{"start":693.494,"end":701.302,"text":"現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說"},{"start":706.75,"end":723.144,"text":"這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。"},{"start":726.056,"end":750.666,"text":"報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失慮不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我未來環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子齊上滿下你知道這一些"},{"start":753.7,"end":771.43,"text":"你要打算放光環評標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。"},{"start":772.438,"end":796.796,"text":"然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都收回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都收回來了"},{"start":797.971,"end":809.266,"text":"還會不會有爭議啊就是說台中縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟"},{"start":811.929,"end":833.111,"text":"所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱"},{"start":833.792,"end":858.272,"text":"而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了"},{"start":869.726,"end":892.415,"text":"所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼"},{"start":895.25,"end":895.73,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":913.052,"end":926.851,"text":"而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府"},{"start":929.254,"end":943.653,"text":"兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。"},{"start":945.54,"end":952.347,"text":"啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過"},{"start":964.258,"end":975.573,"text":"你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞"},{"start":978.441,"end":998.325,"text":"報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?"},{"start":1002.133,"end":1006.378,"text":"你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸"},{"start":1019.634,"end":1031.724,"text":"我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼"},{"start":1050.987,"end":1072.94,"text":"蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得"},{"start":1080.384,"end":1099.77,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":1099.949,"end":1126.803,"text":"你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到"},{"start":1127.623,"end":1152.401,"text":"地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢"},{"start":1153.8,"end":1154.781,"text":"disciplinary?"},{"start":1154.781,"end":1182.458,"text":"那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府"},{"start":1184.236,"end":1196.828,"text":"這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制"},{"start":1198.029,"end":1218.234,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1218.855,"end":1235.45,"text":"參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼"},{"start":1239.827,"end":1255.697,"text":"您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。"},{"start":1256.437,"end":1281.41,"text":"你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理"},{"start":1281.87,"end":1287.354,"text":"我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1570,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時23分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，最近你們預告修正環評法施行細則，大家都在問，因為大家長期以來所關注的，比如說老舊環評要退場，環現差只做一次，比如說環境監測還有督察的資料你們都沒有公開，比如說採礦的要不要納入管理，這些細節的討論你們統統沒有優先去做，社會所高度關注的你們沒有做，而你們現在陷立法院於不義、陷我們衛環委員會於不義的是說，你們因為今年3月衛環委員會通過臨時提案，立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼地重視？你們說臨時提案要求「開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準」，立法院要求你們做修正，可是大家都知道立法院要求的是你們要從嚴，結果你陷我們衛環委員會於不義，你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的，你給它放寬了，然後說這是立法院提案要求的，你給我們立法院衛環委員會的委員「裝肖仔」！這是陷我們衛環於不義，然後去行你們要放寬之實啊！","今天在這裡，我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館、文教設施、光電等開發的這一些環評權限，你把本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放，下放給地方審查，被媒體披露以後，像剛才王育敏委員質詢你也是這樣子，觀光旅館業你也是這樣子，被媒體披露以後你就說好，旅館開發我暫時不下放了，然後王育敏質詢了光電產業以後，你就說好，30公頃以上的我暫時也不下放了，我覺得部長，上一次我問你，你也都是這種態度，如果在立法院沒有開會，如果民意上沒有反彈，你們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉，不應該開放的開放了，等到有人反彈你再縮回去，我就有點懷疑，這是彭部長的風格嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是的啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你一向走來一直都這樣子，本來我對你是高度肯定，因為你認真，看起來認真又專業，而且好像有心要做一點作為，可是在這種大家看起來最不應該放水、最不應該放鬆的地方，你老是先放寬放鬆了，然後再縮回去，被人家罵了再縮回去，這一點讓你的專業、能力、認真打折扣。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的指教，其實在今年年初的時候，環境部就已經要委託給15個地方做這件事情，然後他們也通過了。"],["林委員淑芬：年初的時候，所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的囉！你剛才在回答其他立委的時候，你說的是因為立法院要求，現在你又不是了，你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了，要下放了。"],["彭部長啓明：那時候是委託給15個地方在做這個。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我問你的是，你本來就在準備要下放給地方了，就旅館業而言，不是因為立法院要求的嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：當時有一部分是立法院要求這個施行細則要更明確化。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你在這裡都亂講，其實年初的時候，你們施行了什麼東西？就是觀光旅館業的開發環評下放給地方去審理，是吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：反應怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：我請司長來回答。"],["林委員淑芬：不用，我幫你回答。事實上你們說要健全環評審查制度，提升政府治理效能，結果你們把中央的項目，你們在今年年初就試辦，交給地方政府去做，然後就只有審了2個案子，全臺灣二十幾個縣市，只審了2個案子，然後你們就說審起來效果不錯啊！執行狀況尚無不妥啊！所以應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府，可是這個是事實嗎？這個是事實嗎？","你們在8月21日邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會，就是這一些要下放給地方，地方的反應是什麼？部長，你知道嗎？不知道？我唸給你聽，第一個，新北市政府環保局說，分工表原意係指考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工，除了考量環境敏感區域外，也考量到開發規模大小來定分工，本次分工表的修正，就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區育樂設施的開發、觀光旅館業的開發、文教設施的開發，全數下放改為地方權責，新北市環保局建議，仍應以對環境衝擊大小為考量來劃定分工，新北市政府不同意。","苗栗縣環保局它也講，考量到地方人力不足，倘屬中央目的事業主管機關核發許可的案件，是否應一併調整回中央審查？地方環保局人力缺乏，如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力、財力不足的困擾，現未補助經費或人力協助，卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔，所以鈞部欲修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求，就將案件下放地方，他們不同意。","宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議，依開發規模調整，降低地方政府行政負荷。","新竹縣地方環保局也認為，你們升格為環境部，地方業務隨之增加，你們的升格多了人、多了錢，可是把這些業務下放給地方，你還要求它為了能夠有效管理環評案件，清查老舊環評，並包含例行的環評判定，應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求，進行環評審查及監督等業務，地方政府人力已經明顯不足，請鈞部再行考量上述原因，重新調整權責分工，並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力，以提升環評相關作業。","包括臺南市環保局他們也講，實務上太陽光電開發案鮮少有30公頃以上，且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序、權管機關、利益層面甚廣，地方主管機關難以把關，建議仍維持現行規定。","你們從年初自己的試行計畫，到假借立法院臨時提案之名，要把光電產業、觀光旅館產業下放給地方政府，而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法方向，8月底人家開完會跟你這樣講，你們一意孤行，10月份就預告了這個草案，要推卸責任、推卸工作的時候效率很高，我想部長你應該不知道這件事啦！"],["彭部長啓明：所以我知道這個情況，全面瞭解了之後，我已經把3個全部收回來。"],["林委員淑芬：所以你的業務單位是欺上瞞下哦！地方政府的意見沒有給你知道，然後你看一看就說可行，因為他說2個試辦的案件沒有困難，可行，然後你就聽了，然後你就公告預告了，是這樣子嗎？可是你知道嗎？真正的問題不只是這樣子，真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環評法施行細則以後，大開後門，人家在質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套！為了財團開發在解套！環評權限全部下放給地方審查，不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定，必要的時候收回這幾句話而已，不是！美麗灣渡假村，你知道這影響多大嗎？你看了報導了。"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在知道這個不是單純的環評爭議，它澈底地暴露了地方環評制度系統性的缺陷，如果不是環團站出來，不是社會人士有反對，你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上，在制度系統性的缺陷上，還要再下放給地方政府。當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到1公頃，不用環評，它怎麼搞烏龍的？它怎麼搞的你記得嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我依稀記得。"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼搞的？"],["彭部長啓明：就是地方有地方的勢力。"],["林委員淑芬：它的開發面積好幾公頃，然後它說這個建築基地不到1公頃所以免環評，這樣子可以叫環評，環評可以這樣做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這件事情在流程當中有很多時間的序列，那我們有在這個子法裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講這個，部長，你聽好哦！"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主，舉臺東縣政府這個例子可以證明，臺東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為，違法亂紀，不依法行政，而且是這樣子護航業者，然後直到大家民意反對，2007年中央，欸！從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正，然後臺東縣政府才說好吧！那我要求他們做環評，結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指，程序黑箱，拒絕公民參與，環評委員都只有環工、土木背景，沒有海洋生態，沒有文化人類學，沒有相關社會人文領域的專家，所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞，而離譜的是，臺東縣政府沒有反省，現在臺東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質，反而是要重啟環評欸！所以看到這個我們才知道這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查，環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區開發面積大，你不但沒有收回中央來把關，你反而還要再繼續下放，這能看嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我在這件事情發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程，如果這個過程思慮不周，跟委員致歉，但是我們目前……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要跟我致歉，這不是我個人的事啊！"],["彭部長啓明：也報告委員，目前已經全部都收回來了，然後我們未來環評總體檢的時候，在明年統一再做一個討論。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到，或者不是你，然後你下面的人這樣子欺上瞞下，你知道你打算放寬環評標準的同時，臺東縣政府現在完成了美麗灣的委外招標哦！它花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到臺東縣政府手上，然後它現在又OT出去，它用文教設施為名去OT，文教設施你有沒有下放了？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：有啦！怎麼會沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，這個全部都收回來了，我已經宣布了。"],["林委員淑芬：文教設施跟住宿旅館會不會有爭議？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那3個東西我今天已經有宣布全部都收回來了。"],["林委員淑芬：還會不會有爭議啊？臺東縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實，還要這樣子搞下去，然後惹到爭議再去訴訟，所以你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住，但是我們必須跟委員報告，因為環評有審查，還有監督，監督很大一部分也在地方，當然有些地方很弱……"],["林委員淑芬：他們有能力嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：但是有些地方是有能力，它的標準規格也跟環境部一樣。"],["林委員淑芬：大多數都很弱，而大多數很弱的地方的觀光產業，財團的勢力都很大，地方政府都很願意配合。"],["彭部長啓明：東部沒有、東部沒有，這一次沒有委託。"],["林委員淑芬：美麗灣不是東部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：花蓮、臺東、宜蘭都沒有委託。"],["林委員淑芬：你是試辦計畫沒有委託啦！你們以後下放就全部都放出去了！我現在要跟你講，不是只有觀光旅館業，太陽光電的環評審查權也下放給地方政府。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，也都收回來了，也都收回來了，真的。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有分面積，全部？當初……"],["彭部長啓明：15公頃。"],["林委員淑芬：所以啊！當初你們是太天真，還是要為虎作倀？從2020年到現在，各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長、民代甚至議長索賄的案件，而雲林兩位議長，他們拿錢索賄的理由是什麼？回饋地方，他打點地方黑白兩大勢力，那個錢都是在做這個的，所以你就知道他們有能力把關嗎？用膝蓋想也知道，地方政府就是亂搞的始作俑者，而且已經起訴這麼多，事實上對業者進行勒索這麼多，如果不是在這裡立委質詢，如果不是社會上反彈，你們已經公告，還要繼續全部下放給地方政府。","連檢察總長邢泰釗都表示，綠能產業申請流程繁瑣，各地方政府審查標準不一，導致審核公務機關裁量權過大，勾結地方勢力及民意代表，甚至向廠商索賄，這種東西大家都知道，膝蓋想都知道，你怎麼還會繼續下放，而且還大規模地繼續下放，把本來中央把關的大面積開發案繼續下放呢？你怎麼有辦法看得過去？你不要說現在你收回來了，你當初怎麼會這樣做決策？部長，你也說說看，怎麼會這樣做？是太天真還是為虎作倀？是笨還是壞？部長，你說說看。"],["彭部長啓明：當時的決策我相信有一定的時空背景，這件事情我必須說，它是有一段時序的，我並沒有參與得太多，也跟各委員致歉，但是目前我也跟委員保證，我們會全面收回來，由中央處理，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有參與得太多，這是什麼意思？你知道投資一個100公頃的太陽光電案場，投資金額要多少錢嗎？100公頃。"],["彭部長啓明：因為過去的光電廠並沒有特別做環評，這一次我們才把它納進來的。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，這個我們知道啦，但我們要求納入環評的，中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積。"],["彭部長啓明：我們管的是山坡地15公頃以上的。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，大面積的啊，15公頃很大耶。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你在這種狀況裡面，這種東西，案場一開發，投資要幾十億欸。然後你把生死大權交到前科累累的地方政府手上，現在被罵了，你又收回去，我就會問你當初你怎麼會思考到要把它交給地方政府，為什麼？你講不出來喔？當初你們怎麼思考的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個有一點前因後果的過程。"],["林委員淑芬：你把環評的權限下放給地方，會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的一些額外成本，難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策，讓正派的業者卻步，而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎？而我們總統說2030年再生能源發電比要到30%，你覺得這些可以做大面積的有規模能力的業者，讓這些地方勢力這樣子敲詐勒索，這樣子會讓正派的業者敢投資嗎？所以你們欲速則不達，你以為這樣比較快，卻是欲速則不達。你說要健全環評審查制度，提升政府效能，然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達，所以在這裡我們最後要問你，你口口聲聲說要強化中央跟地方政府分工，你說你要下放，下放了以後，中央的監督機制沒有看到，出了問題，介入的機制和權限沒有看到，地方環評的量能配套，你們沒有評估，也沒有給資源，各地方政府現在環評制度不一致，他們審查，連這個審查程序都不一致，連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致，你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢？對不對？像美麗灣，現在開發單位買回去了，變成是臺東縣政府主管，然後它又要做環評審查，你們要如何避免利益衝突？所以環境部升格，不是為了讓你們甩鍋，而是要讓你更積極地去守護臺灣的環境，當年就是因為地方政府這麼重大的缺失，以美麗灣為例，真的是違法亂紀，地方政府天高皇帝遠，視法律如無物，才會衍生後續十幾年的爭議，你們不但沒有加強把關，反而要全面放寬管制，你們這樣做對嗎？部長，雖然現在你們被罵一罵都縮回去了，但是當初你們這樣做對嗎？這是第一個。","第二個，你現在都宣稱你不知道，你沒有參與很多，然後你現在要改，你未來還會這樣子繼續放任業務單位這樣參與嗎？你參與不多，然後讓他們在每個領域，在每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎？部長，你要承諾一下。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當時有前因後果，那……"],["林委員淑芬：前因是什麼？後果是什麼？你就用「前因後果」四個字就搪塞了，前因是什麼？後果是什麼？你在這裡就跟立委說這個有前因後果，前什麼因？後什麼果？講出來啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有一個時間序列，我在這5個月當中，對這個參與比較少，也跟委員致歉，未來類似的情形絕對不會再發生，在這邊跟委員保證。"],["林委員淑芬：你不能只是講碳費啦！只是講碳交易啦！這個是最重要的，環境部最核心的業務在這裡，不是只有碳費。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不用懷疑我對環境的堅持，這個事件處理不周，也跟委員致歉，我保證未來一定會嚴格管理。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我就跟你再分享最後一句話，環境部的核心業務就在這裡，也在廢棄物管理，當然還有碳費，所以你不能偏私啊。不要頭重腳輕，花的時間要一樣多，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}