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\"已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 133.487, \"end\": 133.827, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 133.827, \"end\": 134.067, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 134.067, \"end\": 134.188, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 134.188, \"end\": 134.488, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 134.488, \"end\": 134.728, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 134.728, \"end\": 135.308, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 135.308, \"end\": 135.548, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"搞\", \"start\": 135.548, \"end\": 135.709, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 135.709, \"end\": 135.829, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 135.829, \"end\": 136.109, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 136.109, 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\"各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 161.823, \"end\": 161.903, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 161.903, \"end\": 161.923, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 161.923, \"end\": 162.163, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 162.163, \"end\": 162.444, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 162.444, \"end\": 162.684, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 162.684, \"end\": 162.844, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 162.844, \"end\": 162.984, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 162.984, \"end\": 163.164, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 163.164, \"end\": 163.564, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 163.564, 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\"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"：\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 512.814, \"end\": 512.834, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:13,280\n委員執行謝謝主席那今天那個部長沒來我們麻煩常次請林副次長\n\n2\n00:00:16,882 --> 00:00:42,258\n長室你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道\n\n3\n00:00:43,058 --> 00:01:01,875\n你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電\n\n4\n00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:24,023\n那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛草圃的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文化裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議\n\n5\n00:01:25,003 --> 00:01:41,290\n大寮區社場的案子也被居民在議會總諮詢的時候去陳審。平東林園鄉的村民他們去年底也在指控除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題\n\n6\n00:01:44,958 --> 00:02:12,627\n我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看\n\n7\n00:02:13,487 --> 00:02:40,185\n已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:41,823 --> 00:03:07,916\n各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛\n\n9\n00:03:08,496 --> 00:03:11,718\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n10\n00:03:31,527 --> 00:03:53,339\n條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的\n\n11\n00:03:54,448 --> 00:04:17,771\n他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎\n\n12\n00:04:18,831 --> 00:04:46,100\n委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統\n\n13\n00:04:47,000 --> 00:05:11,550\n但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧\n\n14\n00:05:12,611 --> 00:05:17,774\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n15\n00:05:32,472 --> 00:05:34,633\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n16\n00:05:56,445 --> 00:05:59,549\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查\n\n17\n00:06:18,239 --> 00:06:42,657\n這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來\n\n18\n00:06:43,297 --> 00:07:07,865\n那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長\n\n19\n00:07:09,757 --> 00:07:28,285\n這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定\n\n20\n00:07:28,985 --> 00:07:54,579\n那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那\n\n21\n00:07:56,325 --> 00:07:59,587\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n22\n00:08:12,073 --> 00:08:27,129\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修\n\n23\n00:08:29,992 --> 00:08:32,834\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t13280\t委員執行謝謝主席那今天那個部長沒來我們麻煩常次請林副次長\n16882\t42258\t長室你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道\n43058\t61875\t你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電\n62836\t84023\t那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛草圃的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文化裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議\n85003\t101290\t大寮區社場的案子也被居民在議會總諮詢的時候去陳審。平東林園鄉的村民他們去年底也在指控除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題\n104958\t132627\t我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看\n133487\t160185\t已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?\n161823\t187916\t各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛\n188496\t191718\t條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n211527\t233339\t條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的\n234448\t257771\t他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎\n258831\t286100\t委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統\n287000\t311550\t但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧\n312611\t317774\t條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n332472\t334633\t條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n356445\t359549\t條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查\n378239\t402657\t這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來\n403297\t427865\t那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長\n429757\t448285\t這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定\n448985\t474579\t那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那\n476325\t479587\t條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n492073\t507129\t條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修\n509992\t512834\t條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n","txt":"委員執行謝謝主席那今天那個部長沒來我們麻煩常次請林副次長\n長室你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道\n你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電\n那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛草圃的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文化裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議\n大寮區社場的案子也被居民在議會總諮詢的時候去陳審。平東林園鄉的村民他們去年底也在指控除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題\n我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看\n已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?\n各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的\n他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎\n委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統\n但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查\n這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來\n那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長\n這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定\n那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:13.280\n委員執行謝謝主席那今天那個部長沒來我們麻煩常次請林副次長\n\n00:16.882 --> 00:42.258\n長室你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道\n\n00:43.058 --> 01:01.875\n你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電\n\n01:02.836 --> 01:24.023\n那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛草圃的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文化裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議\n\n01:25.003 --> 01:41.290\n大寮區社場的案子也被居民在議會總諮詢的時候去陳審。平東林園鄉的村民他們去年底也在指控除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題\n\n01:44.958 --> 02:12.627\n我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看\n\n02:13.487 --> 02:40.185\n已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?\n\n02:41.823 --> 03:07.916\n各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛\n\n03:08.496 --> 03:11.718\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n03:31.527 --> 03:53.339\n條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的\n\n03:54.448 --> 04:17.771\n他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎\n\n04:18.831 --> 04:46.100\n委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統\n\n04:47.000 --> 05:11.550\n但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧\n\n05:12.611 --> 05:17.774\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n05:32.472 --> 05:34.633\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n05:56.445 --> 05:59.549\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查\n\n06:18.239 --> 06:42.657\n這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來\n\n06:43.297 --> 07:07.865\n那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長\n\n07:09.757 --> 07:28.285\n這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定\n\n07:28.985 --> 07:54.579\n那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那\n\n07:56.325 --> 07:59.587\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n08:12.073 --> 08:27.129\n條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修\n\n08:29.992 --> 08:32.834\n條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":13.28,"text":"委員執行謝謝主席那今天那個部長沒來我們麻煩常次請林副次長"},{"start":16.882,"end":42.258,"text":"長室你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道"},{"start":43.058,"end":61.875,"text":"你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電"},{"start":62.836,"end":84.023,"text":"那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛草圃的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文化裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議"},{"start":85.003,"end":101.29,"text":"大寮區社場的案子也被居民在議會總諮詢的時候去陳審。平東林園鄉的村民他們去年底也在指控除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題"},{"start":104.958,"end":132.627,"text":"我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看"},{"start":133.487,"end":160.185,"text":"已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他那些機電的設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎?"},{"start":161.823,"end":187.916,"text":"各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛"},{"start":188.496,"end":191.718,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":211.527,"end":233.339,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的"},{"start":234.448,"end":257.771,"text":"他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎"},{"start":258.831,"end":286.1,"text":"委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統"},{"start":287,"end":311.55,"text":"但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧"},{"start":312.611,"end":317.774,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":332.472,"end":334.633,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":356.445,"end":359.549,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":378.239,"end":402.657,"text":"這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來"},{"start":403.297,"end":427.865,"text":"那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長"},{"start":429.757,"end":448.285,"text":"這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定"},{"start":448.985,"end":474.579,"text":"那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那"},{"start":476.325,"end":479.587,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":492.073,"end":507.129,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修"},{"start":509.992,"end":512.834,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1176,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時55分）謝謝主席，今天部長沒來，我們麻煩常次。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：常次你好。我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關儲能場的問題，我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展的，太陽能板的問題還沒有解決，現在又有一個新的問題出現，那就是儲能場，目前高雄、屏東、臺南這些儲能場，其實地方都一直在抗爭。我們知道，你要發展綠能，你如果沒有儲能場，那等於是空談。前面的太陽能板轉換率提得再高，如果沒有儲能場，一切也是沒有任何意義，所以儲能場還是搭配綠能一個很重要的東西，尤其是太陽能光電。我來提幾個地方，鳳山的牛潮埔儲能場簽約不到一個月，然後馬上就抗爭；鳳山文華里也有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場，市府也要求它遷移；林園區有一個儲能廠的計畫，居民馬上就拉布條抗議；大寮區設場的案子，在議會總質詢時也有居民去陳情；屏東林邊鄉的村民去年底也在指控儲能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題，到現在為止，所有問題都還是用行政命令在解決，還沒有一個專法出來，是不是這樣？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，有關儲能的部分，現在確實是透過各部會相關的子法、規則或指引在做處理，在這一次的電業法修正草案裡面，我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施，這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是你看已經推了那麼久了，綠能搞了那麼久，結果就到現在儲能場的專法都沒有出來。我提一個問題，現在業者申請設置儲能場，地方政府只是進行用地的審查，其他的機電設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局，我想問一下，難道儲能場它最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，現行包括土地使用的部分是由地方政府把關，然後有關於設備安全以及場所安全的部分，標準局這邊有規定。另外，針對消防的部分，內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引，現在就是用這種部會合作的方式在做儲能場的設置，未來在我們的電業法修正之後……"],["吳委員宗憲：你看你剛剛講的就跟我剛剛講的一模一樣，今天儲能場的使用最終變成是由經濟部標準局來管，這個還滿奇怪的！","再來，你剛剛說到消防的部分，我也覺得有一個很大的問題，現行適用的法規是內政部消防署提升儲能系統消防安全管理指引，它的規範是for 20千瓦的儲能場，但是以現行規劃的牛潮埔儲能場來講，它是170百萬瓦，也就是它是原本這個消防指引的8,500倍，你拿一個低階的、針對20千瓦系統的消防指引，用在170百萬瓦的儲能場上面，這個對嗎？而且依照舊有的指引是距離建築物、停車場、公共設施30公尺以上，那個是舊有的指引，可以用在8,500倍更大的儲能場的消防指引上嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：委員，消防署他們規定的是多少以上都要受規範啦！當時在檢討這個部分的時候，有關跟建築物的安全距離要怎麼去規範，那時候都有做了一些檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我再講一次好不好？次長，不要這樣子扯，我再講一次，原本的消防指引它的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統，但是我們現在儲能場的設置，以牛潮埔來講是170百萬瓦，所以是原本法源它所針對的20千瓦的8,500倍，如果一個8,500倍容量的儲能場，你還是用原本的消防指引，我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧！光是儲能裡面的鋰電池用量，它就跟以前遠遠不同嘛！你用同一套標準，這個是不是有問題？這個部分麻煩你們要注意，其實我也跟消防署講過，但目前我還沒有得到任何的回應，任何回應都沒有！我曾經還找過他們到我辦公室，也沒有任何回應，但這個是民眾非常注意的，有幾個鋰電池廠曾經爆炸過，包括韓國，它造成的危害，你們可以去查一下資料，非常的嚴重！針對這些儲能場，現在我跟他們詢問，他們說裡面主要的電池也是鋰電池啊！鋰就是一個高活性金屬，這念過化學的人都懂，這是一個有風險的東西，如果它的消防指引是以前8,500分之1的那種容量的指引，能夠用在現在嗎？不能都沒有任何的動作啦！","我想請問一下次長，這個狀況你們有沒有任何的因應機制？就是儲能場的容量不斷在擴張，你們有沒有什麼想法？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們跨部會在檢討啦！關於剛才委員所講的，其實現在有一些新的儲能櫃，新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能，我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃，現在有一些廠商已經有量產出來，我們最後會導引到這樣的儲能櫃，相對的安全性就會比現在的container提高很多。至於委員講的跟消防有關的部分，我們還會再來跟他們做一些確定。"],["吳委員宗憲：我上個會期已經找過消防署，麻煩你們要注意，不可能容量變大那麼多，體積變大那麼多，結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：好，我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，這次新任的這位經濟部長，當時業界也有人講他本身原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電，所以他應該會非常的理解，經濟部長一定非常理解太陽能光電在做什麼、有什麼風險、有什麼未來性，但是連最基本的儲能場，甚至饋線都搞不定，那我也不知道這樣下去要怎麼辦。然後我們所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的，建設比例遠遠落後，到現在好像只有136百萬瓦，原本是預計可以到200萬瓦對不對？我印象中是這樣。","最後就是我剛剛一直講的，千萬不要只用行政命令來處理這件事情，我強烈建議趕快讓專法出來，而且這個問題已經這麼久了，到現在專法都還沒有出來，其實是滿離譜的，國家竟然可以讓所有的建設走在法律之前，到處建設了一大片，然後還有開槍、還有一堆弊案，結果沒有任何專法可以規範，然後現在你告訴我們只有一些行政命令可以用，就法位階而言，它只是最低位階的命令，它不到法位階耶！這個麻煩次長能夠再趕快處理一下。"],["連次長錦漳：電業法修完之後位階就會往上提高。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啊，法位階我們念法律的很清楚，憲法、法律、命令嘛！你用最低位階的行政命令在處理這件事情，難怪大家各唱各的調，對不對？這個部分我們還是會繼續追，我想包括國民黨黨團在內，全民應該都很在意這個能源的議題，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝次長。"],["主席：請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請賴士葆、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}}