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586.702, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 586.702, \"end\": 587.023, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 587.023, \"end\": 587.243, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 587.243, \"end\": 587.484, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 587.484, \"end\": 587.504, \"score\": 0.022}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,833 --> 00:00:07,518\n行,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長。請彭部長。\n\n2\n00:00:11,127 --> 00:00:35,909\n土友也好彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法\n\n3\n00:00:36,469 --> 00:00:57,831\n報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦\n\n4\n00:00:58,211 --> 00:01:20,687\n所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了\n\n5\n00:01:21,243 --> 00:01:45,743\n那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?\n\n6\n00:01:47,794 --> 00:02:07,070\nbicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛\n\n7\n00:02:08,391 --> 00:02:24,318\n我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的\n\n8\n00:02:31,802 --> 00:02:51,120\n這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應\n\n9\n00:02:52,223 --> 00:03:13,694\n報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的\n\n10\n00:03:14,454 --> 00:03:15,395\n公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。\n\n11\n00:03:31,812 --> 00:03:44,783\n所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛\n\n12\n00:03:47,585 --> 00:04:10,780\n沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費\n\n13\n00:04:16,917 --> 00:04:41,127\n所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是\n\n14\n00:04:58,342 --> 00:05:26,520\n好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣\n\n15\n00:05:27,745 --> 00:05:48,727\n部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見\n\n16\n00:05:51,294 --> 00:06:10,885\n嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把\n\n17\n00:06:13,097 --> 00:06:14,918\n中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算\n\n18\n00:06:33,972 --> 00:06:57,975\nbicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。\n\n19\n00:06:59,488 --> 00:07:27,035\n那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015\n\n20\n00:07:28,695 --> 00:07:30,215\n二、延期延期延期延期延期\n\n21\n00:07:46,360 --> 00:08:15,866\n我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案\n\n22\n00:08:16,426 --> 00:08:35,760\n那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高\n\n23\n00:08:37,321 --> 00:08:57,128\n因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。\n\n24\n00:08:57,728 --> 00:09:15,618\n好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望\n\n25\n00:09:16,238 --> 00:09:17,139\nbicyclap\n\n26\n00:09:44,235 --> 00:09:47,504\n好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5833\t7518\t行,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長。 請彭部長。\n11127\t35909\t土友也好 彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法\n36469\t57831\t報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦\n58211\t80687\t所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了\n81243\t105743\t那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?\n107794\t127070\tbicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛\n128391\t144318\t我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的\n151802\t171120\t這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應\n172223\t193694\t報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的\n194454\t195395\t公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。\n211812\t224783\t所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛\n227585\t250780\t沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費\n256917\t281127\t所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是\n282568\t297995\t゚✧✧✧\n298342\t326520\t好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣\n327745\t348727\t部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見\n351294\t370885\t嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把\n373097\t374918\t中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算\n393972\t417975\tbicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。\n419488\t447035\t那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015\n448695\t450215\t二、延期延期延期延期延期\n466360\t495866\t我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案\n496426\t515760\t那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高\n517321\t537128\t因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。\n537728\t555618\t好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望\n556238\t557139\tbicyclap\n584235\t587504\t好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個\n","txt":"行,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長。 請彭部長。\n土友也好 彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法\n報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦\n所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了\n那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?\nbicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛\n我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的\n這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應\n報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的\n公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。\n所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛\n沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費\n所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是\n゚✧✧✧\n好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣\n部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見\n嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把\n中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算\nbicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。\n那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015\n二、延期延期延期延期延期\n我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案\n那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高\n因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。\n好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望\nbicyclap\n好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.833 --> 00:07.518\n行,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長。請彭部長。\n\n00:11.127 --> 00:35.909\n土友也好彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法\n\n00:36.469 --> 00:57.831\n報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦\n\n00:58.211 --> 01:20.687\n所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了\n\n01:21.243 --> 01:45.743\n那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?\n\n01:47.794 --> 02:07.070\nbicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛\n\n02:08.391 --> 02:24.318\n我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的\n\n02:31.802 --> 02:51.120\n這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應\n\n02:52.223 --> 03:13.694\n報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的\n\n03:14.454 --> 03:15.395\n公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。\n\n03:31.812 --> 03:44.783\n所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛\n\n03:47.585 --> 04:10.780\n沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費\n\n04:16.917 --> 04:41.127\n所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是\n\n04:58.342 --> 05:26.520\n好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣\n\n05:27.745 --> 05:48.727\n部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見\n\n05:51.294 --> 06:10.885\n嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把\n\n06:13.097 --> 06:14.918\n中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算\n\n06:33.972 --> 06:57.975\nbicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。\n\n06:59.488 --> 07:27.035\n那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015\n\n07:28.695 --> 07:30.215\n二、延期延期延期延期延期\n\n07:46.360 --> 08:15.866\n我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案\n\n08:16.426 --> 08:35.760\n那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高\n\n08:37.321 --> 08:57.128\n因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。\n\n08:57.728 --> 09:15.618\n好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望\n\n09:16.238 --> 09:17.139\nbicyclap\n\n09:44.235 --> 09:47.504\n好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.833,"end":7.518,"text":"行,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長。 請彭部長。"},{"start":11.127,"end":35.909,"text":"土友也好 彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法"},{"start":36.469,"end":57.831,"text":"報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦"},{"start":58.211,"end":80.687,"text":"所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了"},{"start":81.243,"end":105.743,"text":"那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?"},{"start":107.794,"end":127.07,"text":" bicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛"},{"start":128.391,"end":144.318,"text":"我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的"},{"start":151.802,"end":171.12,"text":"這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應"},{"start":172.223,"end":193.694,"text":"報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的"},{"start":194.454,"end":195.395,"text":"公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。"},{"start":211.812,"end":224.783,"text":"所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛"},{"start":227.585,"end":250.78,"text":"沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費"},{"start":256.917,"end":281.127,"text":"所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是"},{"start":282.568,"end":297.995,"text":"゚✧✧✧"},{"start":298.342,"end":326.52,"text":"好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣"},{"start":327.745,"end":348.727,"text":"部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見"},{"start":351.294,"end":370.885,"text":"嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把"},{"start":373.097,"end":374.918,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算"},{"start":393.972,"end":417.975,"text":" bicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。"},{"start":419.488,"end":447.035,"text":"那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015"},{"start":448.695,"end":450.215,"text":"二、延期延期延期延期延期"},{"start":466.36,"end":495.866,"text":"我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案"},{"start":496.426,"end":515.76,"text":"那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高"},{"start":517.321,"end":537.128,"text":"因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。"},{"start":537.728,"end":555.618,"text":"好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望"},{"start":556.238,"end":557.139,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":584.235,"end":587.504,"text":"好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1703,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時10分）好，謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：彭部長，今天也有很多委員針對環評法施行細則在做討論，環境部在上個月通過環評法施行細則，其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置，環評權下放地方，我也看到很多立委表達了很多反對的意見，針對這個部分，部長，你現在到底有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，那個原來是預告，當然我剛才也跟幾位委員報告，當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多，但是我也承諾了全部都收回來，包含了旅館、文教設施和光電，還是我們中央來處理，但是像桃園環保局，其實也有它的環評的量能，我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審，所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給地方處理，像桃園就是有委託地方的，我們也希望它的量能、它的專業度能夠提升起來，我們的環保司有一系列的計畫在推動這件事，但是無論如何，這個要有社會的共識才是最重要的，我們要等一段時間，明年的時候再來看，所以現在只是預告，目前沒有正式實施，我也宣示全部都收回來了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以在這之前部長跟下面的同仁沒有充分溝通，針對環評法試行細則的部分，沒有做充分溝通嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我剛上任，可能對這件事情不是太了解，所以也造成了一些困擾，在這邊致歉。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛也聽到很多立委在講，我們也很擔心，環境部針對這一部分，在垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，這個我會改進，我保證未來是絕對不會有問題的。"],["涂委員權吉：好。針對預算的部分，去年8月22日環保署升格為環境部，當然規模跟預算一定比之前都還大，剛剛我們瞭解一下，針對環評的部分，因為你們在編預算的時候我們想，環評的部分有很多你們當下是說交由地方去做，既然交由地方去做，為什麼明（114）年還成長了12.8%，大概四百多萬，不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個當時是他們希望補助給地方，比如說，讓地方的人力和量能可以增加，而且要跟我們中央同一個標準。"],["涂委員權吉：所以針對這個預算，當初本來環境部的意思是，這些環評下放給地方的部分，中央會補助給地方，是嗎？預算編列的時候有這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們司長回應。"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方，但是對於地方的人員培訓或者人力的補償，我們是有研議其他的方式來補足，甚至未來可能用約聘的人力來補足。那我們的預算會增加比較多，其實是因為審的案子比較多，應該是說，我們環評的錢本來就少，所以增加一點錢，比例就好像比較高，實際上我們是希望未來可以導入AI，甚至是我們現在正在委辦環評總體檢，這些都需要費用，我們公務預算主要是用在這相關方面。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們也覺得很奇怪，當初編列這個預算的時候是把環評權五大項的分工、地方針對環評權的部分，讓地方去處理。"],["徐司長淑芷：沒有，沒有，要跟委員講，我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的部分納進去，這個預算完全是中央在運用的，包括我們審案子要給委員的出席費、審查費，甚至我們要去現勘，還有我們自己也有一些相關的行政事務要處理，甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評，還有我們環評總體檢，都需要用到這些經費。"],["涂委員權吉：那時候我們就覺得這個部分的預算可能要檢討一下，環評權下放地方，正常來講，案件應該是減少的，我們認為，環評權下放地方，案件應該是減少，結果反而預算是增加，所以我們針對這一部分的預算編列有一些質疑，到時候我希望還是針對最近跟未來我們審查數量的部分，讓我們來瞭解一下，為什麼下放地方之後，正常應該是數量減少，結果反而預算增加，針對這一部分，希望提供一些數據讓我們來瞭解一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，謝謝，謝謝委員的指正，我們會來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：好。還有，我也想瞭解，我不知道當初修正環評法施行細則的動機是什麼，我們看了一下，2015年修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本，我們看起來，今年修正的版本跟9年前好像幾乎是一模一樣，部長，你有沒有注意到？你看，這兩個版本幾乎是一模一樣，當初又說中央、地方權責要分工分清，結果2015年的修正版本跟現在2024年的修正版本幾乎一模一樣，針對這一部分，不知道是參考過去的版本，還是有參考我們學者的意見？"],["徐司長淑芷：跟委員報告，2015年修正，是因為我們以前沒有做分工的附表，所以那時候常常就會有爭議，到底權限在中央還是地方，所以我們2015年修法的時候是訂定這個附表，把權限分清楚。後來在修法的時候，是把旅館、文教設施這個敏感區域的審查，修法變成是中央來審查，主要就是因為美麗灣的事件，所以後來修法變成是中央來審查。我們後來為什麼會想地方是不是能辦，是因為經過這麼多年以來，地方主動跟我們講說旅館能不能給他們審，這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致，相關的考量點也一樣。我們想，一個案子，地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看，所以我們當初才會考量是不是要下放給地方，才提出這個預告的版本，主要就是要蒐集各界的意見，現在還在預告蒐集意見的期間，所以這個施行細則並不是分舊版本、新版本，施行細則其實主要就是在講權責分工的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：對。所以這個部分我希望還是要注意一下，當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方環評的權責能夠分工清楚，而且希望能夠儘量利益迴避，可是沒有想到2024年我們感覺又修回這樣子。對於我們2015年修法所要講的事情、所要做的事情，包括希望分工清楚、利益迴避等等，結果沒有想到2024年又重蹈覆轍，又走回原來的老路，所以這部分希望部長也能夠瞭解一下。因為我剛剛也聽到很多委員在講，針對新的預告修正版本，我們之前的環保署副署長詹順貴有講，把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方，這是再生能源的大災難，而且我們也知道，地檢署一直在偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、地方代表等等涉入的光電弊案，結果環境部現在不但沒有去改善，而且居然還預告修正，要把我們光電環評權下放地方，這不但沒有改善，還助長地方的首長，讓他們更名正言順地去要回饋金，是不是讓弊案發生的頻率更高？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，原來是沒有太陽光電的，然後我們這次做的是針對15公頃以上的部分，15公頃以上的案子，經過山坡地，要環評，目前因為剛好這個細則修正的關係，所以就把15公頃到30公頃的部分讓地方來審，超過30公頃的部分是中央審。不過我也跟委員報告，因為我已經宣布了，所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好。把光電納入環評，其實真的也是大眾的期待，只是說把環評權下放地方，大家還是怕會造成弊案叢生，球員兼裁判，擔心會有這樣子的問題，既然部長已經說不會下放，我希望部長針對這部分，跟我們同仁好好討論，好好評估，大家擔心沒有辦法改善，結果卻變成好像去助長地方跟光電業者產生弊案的機會，所以我希望我們環境部要做好監督的責任，保證不下放的部分，真的也希望部長能夠審慎評估。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我絕對不會下放，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員。我們中午不休息，直到質詢結束，環境部備詢的人可以用餐。","接下來請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}