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\"start\": 361.342, \"end\": 361.363, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 361.363, \"end\": 361.543, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 361.543, \"end\": 361.643, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 361.643, \"end\": 361.683, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"毛\", \"start\": 361.683, \"end\": 361.703, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,876 --> 00:00:30,135\n陳委員生日快樂謝謝主席有請環境部部長謝謝陳委員好部長現在已經是中午了今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情你已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變\n\n2\n00:00:33,117 --> 00:00:54,906\n報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與更多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個\n\n3\n00:00:55,666 --> 00:00:55,986\n»:呃,這個應該是旅館\n\n4\n00:01:25,229 --> 00:01:50,134\n對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告\n\n5\n00:01:50,854 --> 00:01:51,435\nbicyC.\n\n6\n00:01:51,435 --> 00:02:12,831\n您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年\n\n7\n00:02:14,452 --> 00:02:41,173\n那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以\n\n8\n00:02:41,813 --> 00:02:57,593\n我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評\n\n9\n00:02:58,234 --> 00:03:23,253\n可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見\n\n10\n00:03:26,135 --> 00:03:35,960\n剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例\n\n11\n00:03:47,425 --> 00:04:13,832\n這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議\n\n12\n00:04:15,732 --> 00:04:41,287\n所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色\n\n13\n00:04:42,167 --> 00:05:10,575\n與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看\n\n14\n00:05:11,377 --> 00:05:37,071\n好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的\n\n15\n00:05:40,072 --> 00:05:40,733\nbicyC.\n\n16\n00:05:40,733 --> 00:05:42,575\n因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。\n\n17\n00:06:01,182 --> 00:06:01,703\n謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6876\t30135\t陳委員生日快樂謝謝主席有請環境部部長謝謝陳委員好部長現在已經是中午了今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情你已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變\n33117\t54906\t報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與更多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個\n55666\t55986\t»: 呃,這個應該是旅館\n85229\t110134\t對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告\n110854\t111435\tbicyC.\n111435\t132831\t您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年\n134452\t161173\t那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以\n161813\t177593\t我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評\n178234\t203253\t可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見\n206135\t215960\t剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例\n227425\t253832\t這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議\n255732\t281287\t所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色\n282167\t310575\t與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看\n311377\t337071\t好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的\n340072\t340733\tbicyC.\n340733\t342575\t因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。\n361182\t361703\t謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛\n","txt":"陳委員生日快樂謝謝主席有請環境部部長謝謝陳委員好部長現在已經是中午了今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情你已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變\n報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與更多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個\n»: 呃,這個應該是旅館\n對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告\nbicyC.\n您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年\n那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以\n我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評\n可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見\n剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例\n這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議\n所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色\n與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看\n好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的\nbicyC.\n因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。\n謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.876 --> 00:30.135\n陳委員生日快樂謝謝主席有請環境部部長謝謝陳委員好部長現在已經是中午了今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情你已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變\n\n00:33.117 --> 00:54.906\n報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與更多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個\n\n00:55.666 --> 00:55.986\n»:呃,這個應該是旅館\n\n01:25.229 --> 01:50.134\n對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告\n\n01:50.854 --> 01:51.435\nbicyC.\n\n01:51.435 --> 02:12.831\n您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年\n\n02:14.452 --> 02:41.173\n那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以\n\n02:41.813 --> 02:57.593\n我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評\n\n02:58.234 --> 03:23.253\n可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見\n\n03:26.135 --> 03:35.960\n剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例\n\n03:47.425 --> 04:13.832\n這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議\n\n04:15.732 --> 04:41.287\n所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色\n\n04:42.167 --> 05:10.575\n與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看\n\n05:11.377 --> 05:37.071\n好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的\n\n05:40.072 --> 05:40.733\nbicyC.\n\n05:40.733 --> 05:42.575\n因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。\n\n06:01.182 --> 06:01.703\n謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.876,"end":30.135,"text":"陳委員生日快樂謝謝主席有請環境部部長謝謝陳委員好部長現在已經是中午了今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情你已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變"},{"start":33.117,"end":54.906,"text":"報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與更多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個"},{"start":55.666,"end":55.986,"text":" »: 呃,這個應該是旅館"},{"start":85.229,"end":110.134,"text":"對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告"},{"start":110.854,"end":111.435,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":111.435,"end":132.831,"text":"您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年"},{"start":134.452,"end":161.173,"text":"那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以"},{"start":161.813,"end":177.593,"text":"我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評"},{"start":178.234,"end":203.253,"text":"可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見"},{"start":206.135,"end":215.96,"text":"剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例"},{"start":227.425,"end":253.832,"text":"這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議"},{"start":255.732,"end":281.287,"text":"所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色"},{"start":282.167,"end":310.575,"text":"與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看"},{"start":311.377,"end":337.071,"text":"好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的"},{"start":340.072,"end":340.733,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":340.733,"end":342.575,"text":"因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。"},{"start":361.182,"end":361.703,"text":"謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1830,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時37分）陳瑩委員生日快樂。謝謝主席，有請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，現在已經中午，今天早上您接受記者詢問的時候，關於環評的事情，您已經表態了，您說旅館、光電、文教全由中央審查。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於這個說法，您可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我上任不到6個月，環評的部分，我參與的時間可能沒那麼多，我相信很多事情上半年的時候都有討論很多了，所以我沒有參與很多，可能沒有完全了解。當然，這個法令預告出來的時候，的確引發社會很大的討論，所以我去了解之後，也有和同仁討論，其實我們一步、一步來，畢竟旅館的部分已經先做了，但是包含文教設施、光電，因為它是不一樣的，我很嚴格的檢視，所以後來我完全了解之後，今天就透過委員會宣布把這三項全面收回來。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長的調整。請問一下部長，這張照片，你覺得是旅館還是文教設施？"],["彭部長啓明：這個應該是旅館。"],["陳委員培瑜：對嘛！一般人都覺得是旅館。現場在吃便當的各位也可以看一下，這應該是旅館，就是當年的美麗灣案，可是它現在被臺東縣政府認定為文教設施。所以本席很開心聽到部長早上對媒體的說明，文教設施的部分會收回來由中央審慎評估，本席覺得這非常重要，但本席還是要和部長討論後續的問題。本席知道你們明年底才會公告，而且你們應該也會和地方政府討論，但是本席要指出的是，在這樣的案例現場，我們看到的是地方政府的態度，和他們專業度不足的問題。","我們回到前一張。部長，你說那是旅館，本席也認為它是旅館，可是臺東縣政府說它是文教設施。你們有沒有看到標題？它叫做供文教用途。它的租期是42年，臺東縣政府先以新臺幣6.29億元買回來，再租出去42年，他們說租出去42年，未來可以收進來6億元，所以可以達到財政平衡。","部長，你不用擔心，本席並沒有要問這個案子，本席只是要讓你知道，你早上的宣示是對的，因為地方政府在做環評的時候，不知道他們是什麼樣的心態，也不知道是什麼樣的態度，結果做成這樣的決議。因為本席很怕美麗灣案件再次重演，所以本席要拜託部長，您要有所堅持，如同您說的，你也認為它是旅館。但是你知道嗎？文教用途的環評和旅館的環評標準是不一樣的，旅館是1公頃以上就要環評，可是文教設施則是5公頃以上，如果差別這麼大，你可以想像地方政府有非常多漏洞可以鑽。","如果他們想要圖利廠商，本席必須做出這麼嚴重的指控，因為當年抗議美麗灣案的時候，本席就住在花蓮，有非常多花東的好朋友去抗議，沒想到現在變成這個樣子，本席覺得非常難過。所以本席要請部長協助，後續你們公布相關法規之前，有非常多地方的聲音，你們要聽見，民間團體的聲音也要聽見，剛剛陳瑩委員也說了，我們到世界上開會的時候，原住民的聲音要被聽見，花蓮和臺東是有最多原住民的地方，可是他們的居住經驗、生活想望，並沒有被縣市政府聽見，這個時候環境部應該要有角色，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯，我們會把它考慮進來，謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。我們來看下一個案例，這是花蓮的193縣道，當年進行環評的時候，最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議，根據過去的案例，通常在閉門會議的時候，行政團體、行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去，只留下媒體做紀錄，這是大家普遍可以接受的。但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了，成為真正的閉門會議，所以後來花蓮193縣道案就通過了，結果產生我們後續看到的很多現象。","部長，本席只是要告訴你，雖然你早上把旅館和文教設施的環評權限收回來，但是一樣會有本席剛剛說的那些問題，像花蓮193縣道，我們當年的所有論述就是它和海洋之間的關係、它和花蓮當地人生活之間的關係，但是都沒有被納入考量。這時候，如果中央有積極的配套和角色，把你們的專業度帶進地方，本席認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切，而且更符合大家對生活的想望。","所以本席積極建議，雖然你們說明年年底才會做出相關預告，但是在相關人員的訓練或者委員的遴選、民眾的參與機制、明確的審查程序，還有不同項目的指引，本席認為都要積極做出相應的標準。本席剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例，部長，你怎麼看？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，關於您的指教，我們都可以做到，我們會推動這個事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。也就是說，中央當然有中央的權責，也有中央的專業，但是回到地方，如果地方縣市政府沒有你們的指引，他們可能就會像本席剛剛說的，以非常低的標準、非常草率的程序審查，甚至是不公開、不透明的狀態，我們就可能一再、一再發生在地方環境評估之後的衝突，我們不樂見這些衝突，我們歡迎開發，但我們不樂見這樣的衝突，或者是不公開、不透明的情況。","所以部長，你覺得有沒有機會在12月10日預告時間截止之前再做調整？還是因為你們會再做調整，所以這個時間也可以往後？如果你們不做出相關指引給地方政府參考，他們依然會繼續亂搞。"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個背後有一個指引，它會比較複雜一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們那個預告裡面最核心的三項，我都收回了，所以我覺得還有很大的調整空間，我們會儘快推動這個事情，會再做修正。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，這個時間本席可以調整，但是相關的指引，本席認為還是要做，我們辦公室也會積極和環境部討論，希望這樣的事情不要再發生。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}