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406.86, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 406.86, \"end\": 406.9, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 406.9, \"end\": 406.94, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 406.94, \"end\": 406.96, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,499 --> 00:00:14,014\n好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。\n\n2\n00:00:27,123 --> 00:00:53,243\n欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。\n\n3\n00:00:54,224 --> 00:01:10,146\n那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:11,948 --> 00:01:12,248\n一小時內要通知\n\n5\n00:01:31,733 --> 00:01:56,091\n一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。\n\n6\n00:01:58,912 --> 00:02:13,248\n您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。可以,沒關係。跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。再去判定對不對?\n\n7\n00:02:13,248 --> 00:02:15,350\n對對對。所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?\n\n8\n00:02:16,192 --> 00:02:35,729\n這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。\n\n9\n00:02:36,601 --> 00:02:36,621\n來這個請邰醫師來\n\n10\n00:02:59,912 --> 00:03:16,520\n我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:17,721 --> 00:03:41,436\n其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度\n\n12\n00:03:43,217 --> 00:03:49,751\n他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?\n\n13\n00:03:51,847 --> 00:04:13,881\n不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事\n\n14\n00:04:16,703 --> 00:04:34,140\n閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火\n\n15\n00:04:35,522 --> 00:04:54,921\n這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊\n\n16\n00:04:55,982 --> 00:05:22,571\n有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎\n\n17\n00:05:23,482 --> 00:05:26,402\n我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長\n\n18\n00:05:28,566 --> 00:05:56,565\n包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本\n\n19\n00:05:57,405 --> 00:06:23,878\n本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠\n\n20\n00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:46,960\n謝謝牛許廷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6499\t14014\t好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。\n27123\t53243\t欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。\n54224\t70146\t那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?\n71948\t72248\t一小時內要通知\n91733\t116091\t一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。\n118912\t133248\t您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。 可以,沒關係。 跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對?\n133248\t135350\t對對對。 所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?\n136192\t155729\t這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。\n156601\t156621\t來 這個 請 邰 醫師 來\n179912\t196520\t我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?\n197721\t221436\t其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度\n223217\t229751\t他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?\n231847\t253881\t不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事\n256703\t274140\t閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火\n275522\t294921\t這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊\n295982\t322571\t有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎\n323482\t326402\t我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長\n328566\t356565\t包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本\n357405\t383878\t本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠\n384258\t406800\t゚✧✧\n406800\t406960\t謝謝牛許廷委員\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。\n欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。\n那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?\n一小時內要通知\n一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。\n您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。 可以,沒關係。 跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對?\n對對對。 所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?\n這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。\n來 這個 請 邰 醫師 來\n我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?\n其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度\n他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?\n不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事\n閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火\n這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊\n有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎\n我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長\n包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本\n本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠\n゚✧✧\n謝謝牛許廷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.499 --> 00:14.014\n好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。\n\n00:27.123 --> 00:53.243\n欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。\n\n00:54.224 --> 01:10.146\n那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?\n\n01:11.948 --> 01:12.248\n一小時內要通知\n\n01:31.733 --> 01:56.091\n一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。\n\n01:58.912 --> 02:13.248\n您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。可以,沒關係。跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。再去判定對不對?\n\n02:13.248 --> 02:15.350\n對對對。所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?\n\n02:16.192 --> 02:35.729\n這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。\n\n02:36.601 --> 02:36.621\n來這個請邰醫師來\n\n02:59.912 --> 03:16.520\n我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?\n\n03:17.721 --> 03:41.436\n其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度\n\n03:43.217 --> 03:49.751\n他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?\n\n03:51.847 --> 04:13.881\n不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事\n\n04:16.703 --> 04:34.140\n閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火\n\n04:35.522 --> 04:54.921\n這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊\n\n04:55.982 --> 05:22.571\n有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎\n\n05:23.482 --> 05:26.402\n我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長\n\n05:28.566 --> 05:56.565\n包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本\n\n05:57.405 --> 06:23.878\n本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠\n\n06:46.800 --> 06:46.960\n謝謝牛許廷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.499,"end":14.014,"text":"好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。"},{"start":27.123,"end":53.243,"text":"欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。"},{"start":54.224,"end":70.146,"text":"那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?"},{"start":71.948,"end":72.248,"text":"一小時內要通知"},{"start":91.733,"end":116.091,"text":"一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。"},{"start":118.912,"end":133.248,"text":"您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。 可以,沒關係。 跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對?"},{"start":133.248,"end":135.35,"text":"對對對。 所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?"},{"start":136.192,"end":155.729,"text":"這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。"},{"start":156.601,"end":156.621,"text":"來 這個 請 邰 醫師 來"},{"start":179.912,"end":196.52,"text":"我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?"},{"start":197.721,"end":221.436,"text":"其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度"},{"start":223.217,"end":229.751,"text":"他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?"},{"start":231.847,"end":253.881,"text":"不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事"},{"start":256.703,"end":274.14,"text":"閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火"},{"start":275.522,"end":294.921,"text":"這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊"},{"start":295.982,"end":322.571,"text":"有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎"},{"start":323.482,"end":326.402,"text":"我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長"},{"start":328.566,"end":356.565,"text":"包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本"},{"start":357.405,"end":383.878,"text":"本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠"},{"start":384.258,"end":406.8,"text":"゚✧✧"},{"start":406.8,"end":406.96,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1942,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時4分）謝謝主席，彭部長有請。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們等一下投影片。部長是桃園人嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：桃園住了很久，中央大學，觀音出生。"],["牛委員煦庭：觀音出生嘛，今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起。","環科的硝酸外洩案非常嚴重，相信部長身為觀音人看了一定很傷心，觀音在桃園乘載全國工業發展還有各式各樣最辛苦的產業，也是高污染桃園的重災區。這個硝酸外洩的意外，部長有沒有掌握相關的情況？"],["彭部長啓明：有，它7點多的時候發生，我們大概8點多一點，不到三十幾分鐘，我們化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們是怎麼知道這件事情？是廠區通報的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：消防單位。"],["牛委員煦庭：消防單位通報。"],["彭部長啓明：我們有一個平台。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你知不知道如果發生這樣的事情，嚴重的空氣污染，嚴重的公害事件，我們可以依什麼樣的法規處以什麼樣的罰鍰？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是空污法，空污法對這種外洩，各種的下面都有一個處罰的比例，一小時內要通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，空污防制法第三十三條規定，如果業者沒有即時通報，執行協助救災這個義務的話，可以裁罰10萬到1,000萬元的罰款。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那這個案子他有沒有通報？"],["彭部長啓明：有通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：有通報，你們掌握是有通報？"],["彭部長啓明：空污的部分他有通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：那罰不罰得到？今天的問題就這個。"],["彭部長啓明：你要不要回答一下？請我們大氣司司長，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，空污的罰款要看他整個過程，包括有意無意、是不是設備故障等等，要再去判定。"],["牛委員煦庭：再去判定對不對，所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到？"],["張司長順欽：這我現在不能講，還是要看整個環節。"],["牛委員煦庭：實務上狀況對不對？"],["張司長順欽：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我現在跟你討論這件事情的原因就在這個地方，就是我們現行空污防制法的規範都是規範業者的程序作為，也就是有沒有積極處理、積極配合，有沒有及早預防，但是我們整部法令從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果進行裁罰。所以很有可能這個案子，如果目前部裡面掌握的訊息他是有通報的，很有可能到最後他沒有違反空氣污染防制法第三十三條的規定，以至於橘色煙霧裡面是硝酸，然後造成大家恐慌也好，或是實際上身體損害，很有可能到最後他可以全身而退，有沒有可能發生這樣的事，部長？"],["彭部長啓明：這個請大氣司。"],["張司長順欽：我們還在看最後的後果。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是要看最後的後果，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：對，結果還是……"],["牛委員煦庭：實務上在執行是桃園市環保局，當然第一時間重罰，這是不是發生這種事情的標準作業流程？"],["彭部長啓明：是，我想環保局是第一線。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一線對不對，第一線掌握後一定是第一時間重罰，然後重罰之後會發生什麼事，部長你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：細節還是要看當時。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是要看案件，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願？就是說我不服這個罰單，我其實有配合啊！我沒有違反相關法令，可以撤銷，有沒有可能？有可能對不對？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告一下，我們剛剛查，他通報時間超過1個小時。"],["牛委員煦庭：超過1個小時。"],["張司長順欽：一定會罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會嘛，好。可是再來我就要問。如果他超過一點點，比如1個小時5分鐘，那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度？他如果整天都沒通報，你就可以罰最高，罰2,000萬，對不對？可是如果他很積極呢？"],["彭部長啓明：超過1個小時就罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得會罰2,000萬嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是嘛，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：這是有好幾個因子算在一起。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天拿這個題目來開頭，本席是要點出空污防制法很大的一個問題。這之前是倉儲大火，美福的案子，雖然消防法通過了，可是一樣啊，當初美福工廠造成的公害持續了好幾個禮拜，簡直是市民的災難。當初桃園市政府也是第一時間開罰500萬，最高額給他罰下去，後來發生什麼事？業者講說「我按照空污防制法，我沒有什麼相關的義務，我前期有配合，我也不想要這樣」。我很擔心像這樣的事情再度發生，他也講我有配合、我很積極，也許他沒有達到法律1個小時的標準，但是他都講了，按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰。關於空污防制法，你看之前美福大火，500萬被撤銷，最後只能依廢清法罰6,000元，這跟人民的期待有巨大的落差，這是本席要提的事。","其實在部長上任之前，之前薛部長的時候我就有講，空污防制法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範？還是要從嚴處理？對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果，只要造成，我不管你什麼原因，就要課予相關責任。有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合，今天這個觀音的廠商搞不好就是因為，反正發生了我只要配合要件還可以逃脫處罰，所以他在前期的管理就跟你賭，他很有可能就疏於應付，我覺得這是法規上面巨大的問題。過去我們在討論空氣污染防制法的時候，包含前朝的修正，重點都放在移動污染源的管控，可是固定污染源難道不是空污的大宗嗎？我是認為有全面檢討的必要。部長？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，給我一點時間再重新了解一下，因為委員提到的也非常有道理，目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理，不過委員你說的意見非常好，給我們一點時間，我們再來評估一下是不是空污法有些缺陷。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你要多少時間？因為薛部長也講說要給他一點時間，當然他任期快到了，所以我也不怪他，但是你現在新上任，你除了碳的東西很專業之外，其他是環境部本來的守備範圍嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員給我們1個月的時間，好不好？我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一個就是空氣污染防制法要不要再重新針對固定污染源部分做一些修正，譬如說倉儲的大火，譬如說這樣的一個公安意外造成的公害事件，有沒有一個專門的罰則來做處理？當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範，是一個成本的增加，但有時候就是要這樣子才能維護我們的空氣或是水的安全，對不對？自律不成只好他律，過去我們在設定法律的時候都說，他們只要自律、只要好好的做，我們都相信他是好人，結論就是發生一大堆這樣的事，我不希望桃園再發生這樣的事，不管是倉儲也好、工廠也好，都不應該再發生公害，所以我認為空污防制法有檢討的必要，我們現在1個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部裡面做一下想法、做一下研討，開公聽會都很好，我們這邊也會做研討，我們可以長期來做討論，部長，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝委員指教，我們會來進行。"],["牛委員煦庭：麻煩你，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦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114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}}