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\"再\", \"start\": 688.791, \"end\": 688.951, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 688.951, \"end\": 689.331, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 689.331, \"end\": 689.431, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 689.431, \"end\": 690.012, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 690.012, \"end\": 690.152, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 690.152, \"end\": 690.172, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,932\n請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席候委員長局長好局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題\n\n2\n00:00:29,413 --> 00:00:57,120\n我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的\n\n3\n00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:19,501\n其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守\n\n4\n00:01:21,022 --> 00:01:30,011\n那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠\n\n5\n00:01:32,901 --> 00:01:58,742\n那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構\n\n6\n00:02:02,110 --> 00:02:29,273\n然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊\n\n7\n00:02:30,152 --> 00:02:53,546\n委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局\n\n8\n00:02:54,534 --> 00:03:22,252\n包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導\n\n9\n00:03:23,649 --> 00:03:44,152\n我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的\n\n10\n00:03:45,729 --> 00:04:04,740\n我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去\n\n11\n00:04:05,802 --> 00:04:05,942\n有有\n\n12\n00:04:23,147 --> 00:04:44,942\n跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。\n\n13\n00:04:47,738 --> 00:05:07,666\n這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的\n\n14\n00:05:08,766 --> 00:05:26,634\n那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們\n\n15\n00:05:27,426 --> 00:05:49,892\n甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣\n\n16\n00:06:00,861 --> 00:06:16,507\n今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面\n\n17\n00:06:19,089 --> 00:06:39,127\n我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為\n\n18\n00:06:40,408 --> 00:07:05,909\n他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是\n\n19\n00:07:06,389 --> 00:07:07,170\n臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家\n\n20\n00:07:31,369 --> 00:07:57,139\n市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面\n\n21\n00:07:57,899 --> 00:08:15,963\n也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊\n\n22\n00:08:16,903 --> 00:08:44,374\n他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來\n\n23\n00:08:46,095 --> 00:09:01,758\n是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好\n\n24\n00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:23,899\n他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應\n\n25\n00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:33,431\n我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來\n\n26\n00:09:34,980 --> 00:10:02,902\n那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足\n\n27\n00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:26,736\n我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處\n\n28\n00:10:27,637 --> 00:10:46,558\n那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好\n\n29\n00:10:47,379 --> 00:11:09,744\n這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰\n\n30\n00:11:11,924 --> 00:11:30,172\n當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3932\t請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 候委員長局長好 局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題\n29413\t57120\t我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的\n58400\t79501\t其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守\n81022\t90011\t那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠\n92901\t118742\t那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長 局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構\n122110\t149273\t然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊\n150152\t173546\t委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局\n174534\t202252\t包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導\n203649\t224152\t我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的\n225729\t244740\t我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去\n245802\t245942\t有 有\n263147\t284942\t跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。\n287738\t307666\t這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的\n308766\t326634\t那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們\n327426\t349892\t甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣\n360861\t376507\t今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面\n379089\t399127\t我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為\n400408\t425909\t他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是\n426389\t427170\t臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家\n451369\t477139\t市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面\n477899\t495963\t也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊\n496903\t524374\t他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來\n526095\t541758\t是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好\n542279\t563899\t他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應\n565040\t573431\t我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來\n574980\t602902\t那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足\n604500\t626736\t我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處\n627637\t646558\t那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好\n647379\t669744\t這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰\n671924\t690172\t當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝\n","txt":"請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 候委員長局長好 局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題\n我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的\n其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守\n那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠\n那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長 局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構\n然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊\n委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局\n包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導\n我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的\n我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去\n有 有\n跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。\n這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的\n那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們\n甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣\n今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面\n我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為\n他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是\n臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家\n市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面\n也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊\n他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來\n是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好\n他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應\n我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來\n那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足\n我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處\n那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好\n這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰\n當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.932\n請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席候委員長局長好局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題\n\n00:29.413 --> 00:57.120\n我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的\n\n00:58.400 --> 01:19.501\n其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守\n\n01:21.022 --> 01:30.011\n那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠\n\n01:32.901 --> 01:58.742\n那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構\n\n02:02.110 --> 02:29.273\n然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊\n\n02:30.152 --> 02:53.546\n委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局\n\n02:54.534 --> 03:22.252\n包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導\n\n03:23.649 --> 03:44.152\n我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的\n\n03:45.729 --> 04:04.740\n我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去\n\n04:05.802 --> 04:05.942\n有有\n\n04:23.147 --> 04:44.942\n跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。\n\n04:47.738 --> 05:07.666\n這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的\n\n05:08.766 --> 05:26.634\n那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們\n\n05:27.426 --> 05:49.892\n甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣\n\n06:00.861 --> 06:16.507\n今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面\n\n06:19.089 --> 06:39.127\n我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為\n\n06:40.408 --> 07:05.909\n他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是\n\n07:06.389 --> 07:07.170\n臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家\n\n07:31.369 --> 07:57.139\n市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面\n\n07:57.899 --> 08:15.963\n也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊\n\n08:16.903 --> 08:44.374\n他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來\n\n08:46.095 --> 09:01.758\n是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好\n\n09:02.279 --> 09:23.899\n他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應\n\n09:25.040 --> 09:33.431\n我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來\n\n09:34.980 --> 10:02.902\n那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足\n\n10:04.500 --> 10:26.736\n我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處\n\n10:27.637 --> 10:46.558\n那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好\n\n10:47.379 --> 11:09.744\n這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰\n\n11:11.924 --> 11:30.172\n當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.932,"text":"請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 候委員長局長好 局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題"},{"start":29.413,"end":57.12,"text":"我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的"},{"start":58.4,"end":79.501,"text":"其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守"},{"start":81.022,"end":90.011,"text":"那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠"},{"start":92.901,"end":118.742,"text":"那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長 局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構"},{"start":122.11,"end":149.273,"text":"然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊"},{"start":150.152,"end":173.546,"text":"委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局"},{"start":174.534,"end":202.252,"text":"包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導"},{"start":203.649,"end":224.152,"text":"我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的"},{"start":225.729,"end":244.74,"text":"我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去"},{"start":245.802,"end":245.942,"text":"有 有"},{"start":263.147,"end":284.942,"text":"跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。"},{"start":287.738,"end":307.666,"text":"這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的"},{"start":308.766,"end":326.634,"text":"那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們"},{"start":327.426,"end":349.892,"text":"甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣"},{"start":360.861,"end":376.507,"text":"今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面"},{"start":379.089,"end":399.127,"text":"我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為"},{"start":400.408,"end":425.909,"text":"他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是"},{"start":426.389,"end":427.17,"text":"臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家"},{"start":451.369,"end":477.139,"text":"市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面"},{"start":477.899,"end":495.963,"text":"也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊"},{"start":496.903,"end":524.374,"text":"他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來"},{"start":526.095,"end":541.758,"text":"是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好"},{"start":542.279,"end":563.899,"text":"他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應"},{"start":565.04,"end":573.431,"text":"我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來"},{"start":574.98,"end":602.902,"text":"那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足"},{"start":604.5,"end":626.736,"text":"我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處"},{"start":627.637,"end":646.558,"text":"那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好"},{"start":647.379,"end":669.744,"text":"這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰"},{"start":671.924,"end":690.172,"text":"當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時30分）請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：局長好。局長，今天謝謝召委排定的這個專報主題，討論的是AI、資安、國安等等議題，今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長討論，包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題。局長，目前有很多研究素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前就開始在推動所謂媒體融合的全國戰略，包括幾個西方的媒體，像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等都點出，他們的宣傳系統是由共產黨跟國家很多機構、跟民間機構一起來組成的。在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下，某個部分它已經實踐了我們現在說的包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合，最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構機制，進可攻、退可守。我其實很清楚知道，現在很多部會都很努力花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠，我自己看了今天各部會提出來的報告內容，這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對，這些都有，但是我想問局長，你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對，比方說以中共目前在主導的，它是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構，然後動用所有它轄下可動用的所有媒體、新舊媒體的宣傳資源，局長你覺得我們靠事後的闢謠能夠應對得了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論，基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息傳散，第一部分當然有個應處的機制去蒐報跟通報，以及回應，這大概是既有的運作機制，那委員……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這是我說的，這只是事後的闢謠、事後的事實查核。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員提到我們自己的國家有沒有一套敘述機制比較主動式因應中共這些可能的國際媒宣操作？針對這部分，事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們其實過去就有經歷了，包括那時候在疫情期間疫苗的狀況，它其實是一整套的敘事布局，包括烏俄戰爭的時候，它也是一整套敘事結構的布局，它有前、有後、有鋪陳、有要你投射引導的東西，所以這絕對不只是錯假訊息的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度，我覺得這也太低估中共了吧！我剛才想問的事情是，局長，我們現在是由哪一個部會、哪一個部門在主導？我們怎麼樣能夠化被動為主動？其實是有一個以臺灣為主體、以臺灣為本位，我們的敘事結構去做資訊的布建，或者是資訊的傳散？我們現在是由哪個部會在主導這些事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們所知道的是行政院的系統確實有這樣的機制跟平臺。"],["洪委員申翰：哪一個單位嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，它是跨部會的。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我自己覺得國安局應該要在這裡面扮演很重要的角色。當然，今天數發部也在現場，可是我認為數發部在這裡面恐怕比較能夠處理的是在數位技術上面處理的問題。可是從國家安全的層次、國家的立場，或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先，要說打預防針也好，因為我們當然不是主動要去攻擊別人的，我們不像中共，可是我們要怎麼站在一個主動性的、戰略性的位置？我認為看了所有單位裡面，我覺得國安局最適合。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。跟委員說明一下，這不是在做一些認知作戰的攻擊，它比較像是一個……"],["洪委員申翰：當然我們都不是說攻擊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它比較像是一個主動防禦啦！"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛有提到，在行政院系統，因為各部會有它的業管，所以行政院有一個機制，國安局也有，只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作運作的一個模式，我們比較不適合公開來討論，但我們有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：我還是想提醒，我希望國安局也好，或我們相關部會也好，當然今天專報的內容很多，可是如果真的只是一直在討論事後的事實查核，我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命，而且效果一定非常非常有限。我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去……當然我要再說明一次，我們不是要去造謠、我們不是要去攻擊誰，但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅，尤其是這個強大的威脅不只資源多過於我們，甚至現在在它內部也是用敘事結構的方式，其實是在塑造整個認知戰！我們看到有幾個國際智庫也都提醒，恐怕必須要用提前破解的方式，prebunk的方式，而不是一直用現在事後事實查核這個debunk的方式來處理這個問題。","數發部次長，今天我也聽了你的報告，包括我們在AI上面的各種應對。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我也是想請教，你覺得現在數發部在工作上面，我自己感覺確實比較多的還是在事後的闢謠跟查核。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我們有沒有可能可以再做在更前面去應對？"],["林次長宜敬：我認為我們要對付錯假訊息的方式，基本上要分成兩方面，一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播，尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播。另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來，如果現在我們臺灣這些優質的媒體統統因為收不到錢、沒有廣告收入，導致他們經營發生困難的時候，那麼所有閱聽民眾就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的假訊息，所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略，白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣，去看一些正規的媒體。就像在國際上我們知道，我們如果看到一個CNN或者是Washington Post，或者是New York Times的新聞，雖然我們知道他們有時候也會發生一些烏龍事件或有些錯誤，但是他們的新聞基本上是比較可靠的，因為他們都會經過嚴格的查證。所以我們在處理AI產生的錯假訊息上面，我們的確有一個很大很大的挑戰，因為臺灣是一個自由民主，而且是法治的國家。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你講的我都同意。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅，就是生成式AI確實已經被中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為，以提高它投放的精準度。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其這裡面它很善用生成式AI做一種真假混合的方式去欺騙，所以坦白說，我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候，也會遇到其實裡面也許是七成真、三成假，或三成真、七成假，大部分的狀況其實是這樣，它不會給你一個全部都是假的東西。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：這種情形其實是最難處理的狀況，某個部分其實也是改變了它的宣傳策略，從它過去可能是單一訊息去做大規模轟炸，它現在是搞分眾，然後做精準打擊，然後用生成式AI去做分析，提供這個效果。所以我剛才說它在這一整套的敘事結構裡面，再搭配技術上面的應用，說實話我覺得效果很好，我為什麼今天還是想要在這邊提出這樣一個意見的原因，因為我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際情勢，這段時間很多國家，不管是選舉也好，或者是結果陸陸續續出來，接下來國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高。"],["林次長宜敬：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：而且當這個不確定性更高的時候，中共在這裡面一定有大量的空間可以去運用它準備好的這些技術也好、彈藥也好、策略也好、戰略也好，它都準備著在等！"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：那我們準備了什麼？我們要主動做什麼？我們提前要布局什麼？坦白說，我必須報告次長、蔡局長也好，其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚，我們做了什麼提前布局？都是比較事後的因應，我自己覺得在這份報告裡面，當然蔡局長也許會說有些能做主動布局的部分，因為國安的原因沒辦法盡然的都呈現出來，要這樣講我也理解，可是我還是必須站在國會的立場來說，還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分，真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已，這真的不夠。從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑，從疫情、從烏克蘭戰爭，我們追著謠言跑，坦白說真的非常、非常、非常的吃力，在過去這幾次的經驗裡面，我們知道我們的不足，我們是知道我們的不足，所以希望跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來，這部分……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我簡單說明一下，事實上國安局這邊有一個專案，老實跟委員做個說明，我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的會議，針對每一個階段重要的新聞議題先做事先的應處，在判斷可能那一波新聞議題的攻防過程當中，我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理，這都有一些充分的討論，討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去，但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西，我不便公開來說明，假如委員有興趣的話，我們可以私下跟您報告。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這部分當然還是覺得非常、非常需要知道，因為我想局長知道，這裡面可能不只是單靠政府部門，您恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源，甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色，這是一個總體的動員戰，我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說，它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰。當然我們不會要去說破局長講不能講的事情，可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅，尤其他資源這麼多，他的戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下，還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極，好不好？謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好、好，會，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，局長請回。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}