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\"start\": 818.413, \"end\": 818.433, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 818.433, \"end\": 818.513, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 818.513, \"end\": 818.533, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 818.533, \"end\": 818.553, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 825.476, \"end\": 825.616, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 825.616, \"end\": 825.736, \"score\": 0.556}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 825.736, \"end\": 825.856, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 825.856, \"end\": 826.036, \"score\": 0.529}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 826.036, \"end\": 826.076, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 826.076, \"end\": 826.096, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,530 --> 00:00:03,634\n國安局蔡局長、數位發展部林次長、調查局副局長\n\n2\n00:00:17,407 --> 00:00:33,993\n首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了\n\n3\n00:00:34,773 --> 00:00:58,373\n可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案\n\n4\n00:01:00,735 --> 00:01:24,274\n這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告\n\n5\n00:01:27,597 --> 00:01:54,951\n那後來呢我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說呢是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及呢蔡英文蔡總統\n\n6\n00:01:55,791 --> 00:02:13,027\n他所謂的這個錄影檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情質移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下\n\n7\n00:02:15,199 --> 00:02:36,962\n主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中\n\n8\n00:02:38,303 --> 00:02:56,753\n那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎\n\n9\n00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:12,608\n這部分因為是屬於他羅志正個人提告的部分可是現在就有一個問題啊羅志正前委員他去提告那他代表他認為這些都是假的但是問題是從我們國安的角度來看我不針對他們床上什麼的我針對這個錄音檔\n\n10\n00:03:13,849 --> 00:03:39,160\n因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式\n\n11\n00:03:41,082 --> 00:04:00,788\n我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理\n\n12\n00:04:07,310 --> 00:04:27,712\n對阿,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔阿這些影片到底是真的假的阿所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉\n\n13\n00:04:28,593 --> 00:04:52,686\n還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢那不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢方的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的\n\n14\n00:04:53,146 --> 00:05:04,529\n那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的\n\n15\n00:05:19,754 --> 00:05:30,459\n先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的ChatDPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個ChatGPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊\n\n16\n00:05:37,122 --> 00:05:42,384\n比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員\n\n17\n00:06:03,092 --> 00:06:23,782\n也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個ChatDPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感\n\n18\n00:06:24,362 --> 00:06:31,005\n並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHATDPP的人\n\n19\n00:06:39,349 --> 00:06:55,311\n他就為了要去教育這個ChatDPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個ChatDPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個ChatDPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的\n\n20\n00:06:56,893 --> 00:07:21,722\n結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣\n\n21\n00:07:25,103 --> 00:07:43,874\n那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來\n\n22\n00:07:44,874 --> 00:08:00,364\n製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHATDPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答\n\n23\n00:08:07,389 --> 00:08:27,226\n這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的\n\n24\n00:08:27,486 --> 00:08:42,652\n那如果今天有一個類似ChatDPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在\n\n25\n00:08:43,072 --> 00:09:00,784\n一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版\n\n26\n00:09:01,624 --> 00:09:21,905\n流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊\n\n27\n00:09:22,566 --> 00:09:26,150\n在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?\n\n28\n00:09:46,229 --> 00:10:03,764\nTtalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢\n\n29\n00:10:04,444 --> 00:10:19,740\n這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有當然對啊所以你不能\n\n30\n00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:43,885\n委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理\n\n31\n00:10:46,585 --> 00:10:58,612\n最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容\n\n32\n00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:34,996\n有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多\n\n33\n00:11:40,140 --> 00:12:07,931\n好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊\n\n34\n00:12:08,311 --> 00:12:32,636\n阿很多AI很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整\n\n35\n00:12:33,496 --> 00:12:59,643\n那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意\n\n36\n00:12:59,983 --> 00:13:28,188\n可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討\n\n37\n00:13:29,008 --> 00:13:38,553\n我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解\n\n38\n00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:46,096\n謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n530\t3634\t國安局蔡局長、數位發展部林次長、調查局副局長\n17407\t33993\t首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了\n34773\t58373\t可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案\n60735\t84274\t這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告\n87597\t114951\t那後來呢我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說呢是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及呢蔡英文蔡總統\n115791\t133027\t他所謂的這個錄影檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情質移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下\n135199\t156962\t主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中\n158303\t176753\t那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎\n178156\t192608\t這部分因為是屬於他羅志正個人提告的部分可是現在就有一個問題啊羅志正前委員他去提告那他代表他認為這些都是假的但是問題是從我們國安的角度來看我不針對他們床上什麼的我針對這個錄音檔\n193849\t219160\t因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式\n221082\t240788\t我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理\n247310\t267712\t對阿,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔阿這些影片到底是真的假的阿所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉\n268593\t292686\t還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢那不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢方的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的\n293146\t304529\t那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的\n319754\t330459\t先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的Chat DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊\n337122\t342384\t比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員\n363092\t383782\t也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感\n384362\t391005\t並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人\n399349\t415311\t他就為了要去教育這個Chat DPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個Chat DPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個Chat DPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的\n416893\t441722\t結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣\n445103\t463874\t那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來\n464874\t480364\t製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHAT DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答\n487389\t507226\t這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的\n507486\t522652\t那如果今天有一個類似Chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在\n523072\t540784\t一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版\n541624\t561905\t流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊\n562566\t566150\t在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?\n586229\t603764\tTtalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢\n604444\t619740\t這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有 當然對啊 所以你不能\n620480\t643885\t委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理\n646585\t658612\t最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容\n673420\t694996\t有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多\n700140\t727931\t好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊\n728311\t752636\t阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整\n753496\t779643\t那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意\n779983\t808188\t可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討\n809008\t818553\t我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解\n825476\t826096\t謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝\n","txt":"國安局蔡局長、數位發展部林次長、調查局副局長\n首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了\n可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案\n這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告\n那後來呢我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說呢是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及呢蔡英文蔡總統\n他所謂的這個錄影檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情質移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下\n主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中\n那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎\n這部分因為是屬於他羅志正個人提告的部分可是現在就有一個問題啊羅志正前委員他去提告那他代表他認為這些都是假的但是問題是從我們國安的角度來看我不針對他們床上什麼的我針對這個錄音檔\n因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式\n我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理\n對阿,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔阿這些影片到底是真的假的阿所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉\n還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢那不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢方的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的\n那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的\n先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的Chat DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊\n比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員\n也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感\n並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人\n他就為了要去教育這個Chat DPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個Chat DPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個Chat DPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的\n結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣\n那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來\n製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHAT DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答\n這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的\n那如果今天有一個類似Chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在\n一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版\n流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊\n在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?\nTtalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢\n這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有 當然對啊 所以你不能\n委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理\n最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容\n有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多\n好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊\n阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整\n那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意\n可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討\n我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解\n謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.530 --> 00:03.634\n國安局蔡局長、數位發展部林次長、調查局副局長\n\n00:17.407 --> 00:33.993\n首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了\n\n00:34.773 --> 00:58.373\n可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案\n\n01:00.735 --> 01:24.274\n這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告\n\n01:27.597 --> 01:54.951\n那後來呢我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說呢是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及呢蔡英文蔡總統\n\n01:55.791 --> 02:13.027\n他所謂的這個錄影檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情質移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下\n\n02:15.199 --> 02:36.962\n主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中\n\n02:38.303 --> 02:56.753\n那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎\n\n02:58.156 --> 03:12.608\n這部分因為是屬於他羅志正個人提告的部分可是現在就有一個問題啊羅志正前委員他去提告那他代表他認為這些都是假的但是問題是從我們國安的角度來看我不針對他們床上什麼的我針對這個錄音檔\n\n03:13.849 --> 03:39.160\n因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式\n\n03:41.082 --> 04:00.788\n我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理\n\n04:07.310 --> 04:27.712\n對阿,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔阿這些影片到底是真的假的阿所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉\n\n04:28.593 --> 04:52.686\n還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢那不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢方的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的\n\n04:53.146 --> 05:04.529\n那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的\n\n05:19.754 --> 05:30.459\n先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的ChatDPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個ChatGPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊\n\n05:37.122 --> 05:42.384\n比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員\n\n06:03.092 --> 06:23.782\n也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個ChatDPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感\n\n06:24.362 --> 06:31.005\n並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHATDPP的人\n\n06:39.349 --> 06:55.311\n他就為了要去教育這個ChatDPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個ChatDPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個ChatDPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的\n\n06:56.893 --> 07:21.722\n結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣\n\n07:25.103 --> 07:43.874\n那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來\n\n07:44.874 --> 08:00.364\n製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHATDPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答\n\n08:07.389 --> 08:27.226\n這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的\n\n08:27.486 --> 08:42.652\n那如果今天有一個類似ChatDPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在\n\n08:43.072 --> 09:00.784\n一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版\n\n09:01.624 --> 09:21.905\n流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊\n\n09:22.566 --> 09:26.150\n在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?\n\n09:46.229 --> 10:03.764\nTtalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢\n\n10:04.444 --> 10:19.740\n這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有當然對啊所以你不能\n\n10:20.480 --> 10:43.885\n委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理\n\n10:46.585 --> 10:58.612\n最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容\n\n11:13.420 --> 11:34.996\n有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多\n\n11:40.140 --> 12:07.931\n好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊\n\n12:08.311 --> 12:32.636\n阿很多AI很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整\n\n12:33.496 --> 12:59.643\n那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意\n\n12:59.983 --> 13:28.188\n可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討\n\n13:29.008 --> 13:38.553\n我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解\n\n13:45.476 --> 13:46.096\n謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.53,"end":3.634,"text":"國安局蔡局長、數位發展部林次長、調查局副局長"},{"start":17.407,"end":33.993,"text":"首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了"},{"start":34.773,"end":58.373,"text":"可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案"},{"start":60.735,"end":84.274,"text":"這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告"},{"start":87.597,"end":114.951,"text":"那後來呢我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說呢是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及呢蔡英文蔡總統"},{"start":115.791,"end":133.027,"text":"他所謂的這個錄影檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情質移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下"},{"start":135.199,"end":156.962,"text":"主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中"},{"start":158.303,"end":176.753,"text":"那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎"},{"start":178.156,"end":192.608,"text":"這部分因為是屬於他羅志正個人提告的部分可是現在就有一個問題啊羅志正前委員他去提告那他代表他認為這些都是假的但是問題是從我們國安的角度來看我不針對他們床上什麼的我針對這個錄音檔"},{"start":193.849,"end":219.16,"text":"因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式"},{"start":221.082,"end":240.788,"text":"我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理"},{"start":247.31,"end":267.712,"text":"對阿,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔阿這些影片到底是真的假的阿所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉"},{"start":268.593,"end":292.686,"text":"還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢那不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢方的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的"},{"start":293.146,"end":304.529,"text":"那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的"},{"start":319.754,"end":330.459,"text":"先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的Chat DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊"},{"start":337.122,"end":342.384,"text":"比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員"},{"start":363.092,"end":383.782,"text":"也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感"},{"start":384.362,"end":391.005,"text":"並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人"},{"start":399.349,"end":415.311,"text":"他就為了要去教育這個Chat DPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個Chat DPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個Chat DPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的"},{"start":416.893,"end":441.722,"text":"結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣"},{"start":445.103,"end":463.874,"text":"那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來"},{"start":464.874,"end":480.364,"text":"製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHAT DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答"},{"start":487.389,"end":507.226,"text":"這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的"},{"start":507.486,"end":522.652,"text":"那如果今天有一個類似Chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在"},{"start":523.072,"end":540.784,"text":"一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版"},{"start":541.624,"end":561.905,"text":"流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊"},{"start":562.566,"end":566.15,"text":"在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?"},{"start":586.229,"end":603.764,"text":"Ttalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢"},{"start":604.444,"end":619.74,"text":"這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有 當然對啊 所以你不能"},{"start":620.48,"end":643.885,"text":"委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理"},{"start":646.585,"end":658.612,"text":"最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容"},{"start":673.42,"end":694.996,"text":"有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多"},{"start":700.14,"end":727.931,"text":"好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊"},{"start":728.311,"end":752.636,"text":"阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整"},{"start":753.496,"end":779.643,"text":"那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意"},{"start":779.983,"end":808.188,"text":"可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討"},{"start":809.008,"end":818.553,"text":"我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解"},{"start":825.476,"end":826.096,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時42分）謝謝主席。有請國安局蔡局長以及數發部林次長。"],["主席：請蔡局長和林次長。"],["徐委員巧芯：還有調查局副局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員，早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分，其實我在上一次的時候，我有拿出來高嘉瑜委員被Deepfake偽造的影音，後來高嘉瑜委員在媒體受訪的時候，她也正式提出告訴，可是我們在這整段時間來說，可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係，所以各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的。我今天還是拿3個範例來跟三位討教，為什麼要請調查局的副局長一起來，主要是我們先看一下，之前我在外委會，我們有通過一個臨時提案，這個臨時提案是這樣子的，因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片，以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔等內容流出，引起社會譁然，請國安局及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散，並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流，以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣，提出相關的報告，後來我們是同意用書面報告的方式。","可是到現在我想問一下，這幾件事情到底調查得如何？尤其是羅致政前委員作為過去國防外交委員會的召委，也接觸過很多相關的秘密訊息，如果有駭客入侵的情況，我國的國安或是我們的機密是否有外流的情況？以及蔡英文總統所謂的錄音檔到底是真的還是假的？我覺得國人需要知道一個答案。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就委員所提到的幾個案例，國安局已經把相關的情資移送給檢調單位，目前調查局再請他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以調查局我才請他們來嘛，調查局可不可以說明一下。"],["吳副局長富梅：主席、報告委員，大家好。針對這個部分，羅致政委員的影片，因為當時羅致政有到新北市調查處去做提告，所以後來也繫屬在新北地檢，我們也針對所有的鑑定報告，請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了，所以目前這個案子在新北地檢偵處當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要問這樣一個內容如果在地檢署偵查出來是屬於深偽或不屬於深偽，最後會讓大家公開知道嗎？還是這只是屬於他們私人官司的部分？會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還不是深偽的嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：這個部分因為是屬於羅致政個人提告的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是現在就有一個問題啊！羅致政前委員他去提告，代表他認為這些都是假的，但是問題是從國安的角度來看，我不針對他們床上什麼的，我針對這個錄音檔的部分，因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首，以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算，相關的內容是否也有遭到這樣的情況，被駭客入侵，然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知？在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題，不是屬於他私領域的議題，想要請問國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分，我們有什麼妥處的方式？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想簡單說明一下，因為上個會期在討論過程當中，我記得委員也提出這個問題來。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：有再跟委員說明，包括這個影片或影音真偽的部分，事實上調查局是有做過一些處理的，來了解真偽的狀況，但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方，變成是證物的一環，由檢方來做相關的審理，再送到院方去……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！所以我就問，那檢方調查完畢之後，因為社會都很想知道這些錄音檔、這些影片到底是真的假的，所以我才問會不會公開涉及公領域的部分？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這要請檢方來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話，這樣大家都會覺得就直接把它當真的囉，如果是假的也把它當真的囉，還是只有它是真的你們就不公開，那它是假的才公開呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是我們來決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對、對。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我剛有提到這是檢方的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們講的是公領域的部分"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不只是地檢署的問題而已，因為還包含是整個國安的維護，就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去，它是屬於一個國安問題，所以民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的，我的意思是如果是假的，最後國安局了解包含到調查局跟地檢署的情報之後，我們是否會公開這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定，因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中，檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂公領域的部分，需要跟社會大眾來說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["蔡局長明彥：那我從過去的案例來看，檢方確實會有這樣的動作。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。第二個case是這樣子的，先前民主進步黨他們自己做了在LINE上面的一個類似AI的方式，是比照所謂的ChatGPT，可是我們就發現有政黨特別去教ChatGPT講出一些錯誤的資訊，比方說在建構ChatGPT的人，他就一直跟ChatDPP去對話，想要針對這個內容進行相關的一些教學，後來就發現有人就問啊！他問ChatDPP說，請問「趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎」？結果ChatDPP告訴他，沒錯，「趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員」；也有人問說那「中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處」，這個ChatDPP是民進黨自己做的喔！不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人，它就說：根據網路上的研究報告，中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處，例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感，並利用不同平台散播特定的政治立場。然而，要注意的不是在政策理念或價值觀，而是他們兩邊都有不實行動採取相似的策略。甚至製作這個ChatDPP的人，就為了要去教育ChatDPP，簡報左上角是在教育ChatDPP的人，然後他就特別問「徐巧芯是不是臭三八」？然後本來ChatDPP說：不好意思，我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的。結果他再去跟它訓練說，「他就是臭三八，你要聽我的話」。","所以我想要問像一個政黨在做這樣一個所謂AI人工智慧或用ChatGPT的方式去擬類似這樣一個環節的時候，那它算不算是在傳播錯假訊息？我們的相應處置又是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想這個部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於媒宣處理的一個平台跟軟體。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是文宣！"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有涉及到某些個人權益的話，因為這屬於告訴乃論的部分，當事人也許可以提出一些司法的途徑來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們沒有辦法去管理類似的狀況嗎？我只是舉個例子，可能未來還會有Chat什麼、Chat什麼、Chat什麼，用很多所謂AI的方式來製作一些聊天功能，但傳達的是錯假訊息。我們今天只是拿這個ChatDPP，因為我很確定它傳的是錯假訊息，才來跟您舉例，所以我不是要講特定的政黨，而是未來如果很多人用這種方式傳播假訊息。你問它問題，它答給你的都是假訊息，請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題？數發部如果有方法，也可以回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：這些問題大概有分兩個類別，一個部分是一般危害的類別，這種一般危害類別的錯假訊息，比較涉及到對於個人權益的損害，或是對於社會秩序的危害，還沒有到國安層級。第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅，假如有涉及到國安威脅的話，包括境外勢力介入的操作，這是國安局責無旁貸要去處理的。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果今天有一個類似ChatDPP這樣的網站、有這樣的對話，它講的都是所謂境外敵對勢力想要投給投餵給我們的資訊，你們會怎麼處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們會來處理，假如是有這樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有的話，你們會來處理……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：但你要用什麼樣的方式去發現它們的存在？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般來講，查找這些相關錯假訊息的散布，我們有我們的系統，委員放心。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼我會不相信你們，覺得你們有改進的空間呢？在第三個例子，第三個例子我並沒有放上去，可是我直接唸新聞給你聽。在今年的總統、立委選舉之後，TikTok抖音的國際版流傳多則選務錯假影音，中選會在22號才說，累計總共向TikTok舉報105則，選前有10則，選後累積95則，已下架54則，等於在選舉期間的錯假訊息，根本就沒有立刻下架！中選會大多都是先接到檢舉以後，才慢慢審理。抱歉！我們在整個選舉過程當中，收到這麼多的錯假訊息，難道國安團隊沒有辦法有能力第一時間下架嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為中選會跟這些社群平臺選舉期間都有一個專案，在處理、移除這些有問題的錯假訊息……"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得速度夠快嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：TikTok的問題在於它並沒有在臺灣落地經營，它是一個境外的跨國企業……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你要怎麼去……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以這部分就必須要透過專案的方式，針對錯假訊息的散布以及問題帳號的移除，要建立起彼此的合作機制。"],["徐委員巧芯：建立了嗎？你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分有相關的管道來處理，但我再次強調，因為它是一個境外的企業，不在臺灣落地經營。"],["徐委員巧芯：我不管它是哪裡的企業……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這很有關係！這涉及到我們的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我不管是哪裡的企業，但我們希望不要有這樣的事情發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：辦法是你要去想的，不是我要去想的。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不能告訴我說……"],["蔡局長明彥：必須要讓委員知道，處理這個問題過程當中，所面臨到的一些問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道它有面臨過程，如果這麼簡單的話，你們早就做，但問題就是其實它是有難度的，可是在選舉期間不斷地發生。針對類似的狀況，如果是選務的錯假訊息，你們應該要立刻下架，結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理，這不是讓很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這個部分要請國安局再加強處理。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來提醒中選會。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後，我要問國安局的是，你們在去年底有招募AI人才，在2016年舉辦國安特考，也有針對資訊師等等的技術、年齡、體檢標準，提出要求。請問當時這些AI的資安人才錄取以後，他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才招募，而且招募的員額數量還不少，招募進來之後，我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程，訓練的不只是我們局內招募的人才。我上次有跟其他委員提到，包括國安團隊、其他單位的資安人才，我們都一起提供訓練的機制。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們的訓練呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：未來兩年大概可以訓練到2,000到3,000人次之多。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要問的就是你們的訓練，比如公職網站上面可以看到的，國安局的特考訓練有包含體能訓練等等，然後這樣才能……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有基礎訓練，這是基礎訓練。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是有很多，什麼體能訓練、意志力、仰臥起坐、山地戰技、操舟訓練、3,000公尺跑步，這跟資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊！很多很會做AI的人可能就體能不好，請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題。基本上，剛剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中，加強情工人員的體能，我們也注意到很多的資安人才也許在體能上沒有那麼好。"],["徐委員巧芯：對！像霍金就沒有辦法來……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我們的課程去年開始有做一些調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：做什麼樣的調整？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對一些特殊背景、專長的國安人員，在訓練過程當中以及專精訓練過程當中，會有做一些區隔。"],["徐委員巧芯：我建議國安局針對AI、資安的人才招募，要特別只針對AI人才是不是有這樣的能力，不要去管他的體能。做國安局情報人員要體能，我當然完全同意，如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查，很多人比如可能是身障，但是他對於AI的了解、對駭客了解，是一等一的，這樣的人怎麼可以被摒除在國安人員之外呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有意願加入國安局，配合一起做AI調查，我們應該要歡迎他，可是以上所有的內容，他可能都不能做，所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討，我們希望是用人唯才。基本上，這些內容如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到，那就不一定要考，但是針對他的基礎訓練，應該是要在他對於AI產業以及資訊的了解是否頂尖，這才是國安局應該要有的方向。"],["蔡局長明彥：非常好，我非常同意委員的看法。跟委員說明一下，去年我本人有召開一個專案會議，就在處理這件事，而且找我們所有各單位的一級主管通通來參加，告訴我們各單位需求的人才，他的背景是什麼、訓練課程該怎麼調整。謝謝委員提醒，我們繼續來努力，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。","接下來，請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}