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\"text\": \"那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 392.316, \"end\": 392.676, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 392.676, \"end\": 393.858, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 393.858, \"end\": 393.958, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 393.958, \"end\": 394.118, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 394.118, \"end\": 394.458, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"層\"}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 394.458, \"end\": 394.618, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 394.618, \"end\": 394.778, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 394.778, \"end\": 394.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 394.798, \"end\": 394.878, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 394.878, \"end\": 395.259, 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{\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 408.831, \"end\": 408.991, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 408.991, \"end\": 409.652, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 409.652, \"end\": 410.372, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 410.372, \"end\": 410.552, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 410.552, \"end\": 410.693, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 410.693, \"end\": 410.893, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 410.893, \"end\": 411.093, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 411.093, \"end\": 411.233, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 411.233, \"end\": 411.353, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 411.353, \"end\": 411.673, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"佈\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 411.673, \"end\": 412.174, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 412.174, \"end\": 412.294, 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\"那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 415.777, \"end\": 416.057, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 416.057, \"end\": 416.137, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 416.137, \"end\": 416.197, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 416.197, \"end\": 416.317, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 416.317, \"end\": 416.578, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 416.578, \"end\": 416.718, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 416.718, \"end\": 416.858, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 416.858, \"end\": 417.178, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 417.178, \"end\": 417.398, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 417.398, \"end\": 417.538, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 417.538, \"end\": 417.679, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 428.07, \"end\": 428.21, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 428.21, \"end\": 428.67, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 428.67, \"end\": 429.01, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 429.01, \"end\": 429.51, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 429.51, \"end\": 429.67, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 429.67, \"end\": 429.911, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 429.911, \"end\": 430.231, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 430.231, \"end\": 430.451, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 430.451, \"end\": 430.851, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 430.851, \"end\": 431.951, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 431.951, 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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 440.253, \"end\": 440.393, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 440.393, \"end\": 440.633, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 440.633, \"end\": 440.873, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 440.873, \"end\": 441.653, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 441.653, \"end\": 442.233, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 442.233, \"end\": 442.393, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 442.393, \"end\": 442.574, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 442.574, \"end\": 442.654, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 442.654, \"end\": 442.754, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 442.754, \"end\": 443.314, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 443.314, \"end\": 443.454, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 443.454, \"end\": 443.854, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"騎\"}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 443.854, \"end\": 444.414, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"軟\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 444.414, \"end\": 444.674, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 444.674, \"end\": 444.834, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 444.834, \"end\": 445.354, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 445.354, \"end\": 445.514, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 445.514, \"end\": 446.174, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"邏\"}, {\"word\": \"輯\"}, {\"word\": \"框\", \"start\": 446.174, \"end\": 446.414, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 446.414, \"end\": 446.615, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 446.615, \"end\": 446.715, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 446.715, \"end\": 446.895, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 446.895, \"end\": 446.995, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 446.995, \"end\": 447.055, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, 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00:01:13,853\n好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講\n\n5\n00:01:15,074 --> 00:01:37,364\n用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西\n\n6\n00:01:39,546 --> 00:01:41,287\n我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應就這個圖\n\n7\n00:02:05,531 --> 00:02:28,875\n現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖\n\n8\n00:02:32,267 --> 00:02:56,061\n未經AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下\n\n9\n00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:19,753\nAI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工情來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic\n\n10\n00:03:20,273 --> 00:03:47,184\n未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的\n\n11\n00:03:59,004 --> 00:04:13,013\n這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整\n\n12\n00:04:15,431 --> 00:04:21,534\n他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套\n\n13\n00:04:37,562 --> 00:04:57,589\n當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說\n\n14\n00:05:01,847 --> 00:05:22,584\n我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推\n\n15\n00:05:23,965 --> 00:05:24,226\n李卓人議員\n\n16\n00:05:35,799 --> 00:05:58,012\n因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由沿西幕僚單位來使用這個東西他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西88他可以產生64種\n\n17\n00:05:59,713 --> 00:06:10,265\n不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應\n\n18\n00:06:14,990 --> 00:06:31,656\n基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局\n\n19\n00:06:32,316 --> 00:06:55,257\n那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高\n\n20\n00:06:55,777 --> 00:07:05,765\n那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點\n\n21\n00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:27,075\n特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統\n\n22\n00:07:28,735 --> 00:07:37,820\n我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗\n\n23\n00:07:56,592 --> 00:07:58,176\n特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力!\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n889\t1089\t蔡局長\n12711\t33958\t今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁\n35031\t58192\t有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流\n59380\t73853\t好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講\n75074\t97364\t用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西\n99546\t101287\t我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應就這個圖\n125531\t148875\t現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖\n152267\t176061\t未經AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下\n177796\t199753\tAI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工情來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic\n200273\t227184\t未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的\n239004\t253013\t這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整\n255431\t261534\t他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套\n277562\t297589\t當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說\n301847\t322584\t我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推\n323965\t324226\t李卓人議員\n335799\t358012\t因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由沿西幕僚單位來使用這個東西他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西88他可以產生64種\n359713\t370265\t不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應\n374990\t391656\t基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局\n392316\t415257\t那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高\n415777\t425765\t那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點\n428070\t447075\t特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統\n448735\t457820\t我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗\n476592\t478176\t特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力!\n","txt":"蔡局長\n今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁\n有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流\n好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講\n用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西\n我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應就這個圖\n現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖\n未經AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下\nAI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工情來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic\n未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的\n這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整\n他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套\n當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說\n我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推\n李卓人議員\n因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由沿西幕僚單位來使用這個東西他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西88他可以產生64種\n不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應\n基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局\n那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高\n那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點\n特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統\n我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗\n特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力!\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.889 --> 00:01.089\n蔡局長\n\n00:12.711 --> 00:33.958\n今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁\n\n00:35.031 --> 00:58.192\n有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流\n\n00:59.380 --> 01:13.853\n好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講\n\n01:15.074 --> 01:37.364\n用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西\n\n01:39.546 --> 01:41.287\n我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應就這個圖\n\n02:05.531 --> 02:28.875\n現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖\n\n02:32.267 --> 02:56.061\n未經AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下\n\n02:57.796 --> 03:19.753\nAI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工情來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic\n\n03:20.273 --> 03:47.184\n未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的\n\n03:59.004 --> 04:13.013\n這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整\n\n04:15.431 --> 04:21.534\n他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套\n\n04:37.562 --> 04:57.589\n當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說\n\n05:01.847 --> 05:22.584\n我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推\n\n05:23.965 --> 05:24.226\n李卓人議員\n\n05:35.799 --> 05:58.012\n因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由沿西幕僚單位來使用這個東西他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西88他可以產生64種\n\n05:59.713 --> 06:10.265\n不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應\n\n06:14.990 --> 06:31.656\n基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局\n\n06:32.316 --> 06:55.257\n那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高\n\n06:55.777 --> 07:05.765\n那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點\n\n07:08.070 --> 07:27.075\n特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統\n\n07:28.735 --> 07:37.820\n我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗\n\n07:56.592 --> 07:58.176\n特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力!\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.889,"end":1.089,"text":"蔡局長"},{"start":12.711,"end":33.958,"text":"今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁"},{"start":35.031,"end":58.192,"text":"有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流"},{"start":59.38,"end":73.853,"text":"好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講"},{"start":75.074,"end":97.364,"text":"用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西"},{"start":99.546,"end":101.287,"text":"我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應就這個圖"},{"start":125.531,"end":148.875,"text":"現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖"},{"start":152.267,"end":176.061,"text":"未經AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下"},{"start":177.796,"end":199.753,"text":"AI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工情來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic"},{"start":200.273,"end":227.184,"text":"未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的"},{"start":239.004,"end":253.013,"text":"這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整"},{"start":255.431,"end":261.534,"text":"他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套"},{"start":277.562,"end":297.589,"text":"當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說"},{"start":301.847,"end":322.584,"text":"我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推"},{"start":323.965,"end":324.226,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":335.799,"end":358.012,"text":"因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由沿西幕僚單位來使用這個東西他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西88他可以產生64種"},{"start":359.713,"end":370.265,"text":"不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應"},{"start":374.99,"end":391.656,"text":"基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局"},{"start":392.316,"end":415.257,"text":"那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由延期人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高"},{"start":415.777,"end":425.765,"text":"那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點"},{"start":428.07,"end":447.075,"text":"特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統"},{"start":448.735,"end":457.82,"text":"我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗"},{"start":476.592,"end":478.176,"text":"特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力!"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":328,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（10時21分）主席你好，有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：局長好。今天我準備了很多有關AI的流程圖表，剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了，工程技術部分，我們在這邊就不做深入的探討，我只請教幾個問題，第一個就是在我們局裡面，高階的長官同仁有沒有人本身先使用過AI，還是由研析人員？我講研析部分，完全用研析人員的概念去使用AI，然後呈報給長官。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，主要是研析部門在做相關的研究跟開發，我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有，我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向經驗的交流。"],["陳委員永康：因為剛才都探討了深度偽造、網路攻擊，還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果，並不是假訊息，可是它扭曲了你的價值觀，也就是說，我們在講用AI的方法，剛剛講反制就是洗腦、反洗腦這個東西，將來我想數發部在法律上、法遵上面，科技的進步，通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上，這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰。我等一下舉個例給你看，像生成式AI它的風險、它的正反面、效益，這些東西都有流程，我們確定你使用的目標、方法、手段，以法律與規範為監管基礎，符合成本效益的監管模式，因為你投入太大的經費去管一些有機會發生，但是它並不是那麼嚴重的，你做到那麼細也沒有好處。","我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應，就是這個圖，現在媒體已經沒有人在了，所以我就很高興，這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸，從他在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段，這裡面有屬於對抗、合作，有屬於主觀、客觀，有屬於推測、有反思，有宏觀、微觀，不同的方法論裡面，我們把這個邏輯框架圖餵進AI，但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候，AI的回復就不一樣了，所以在這邊8個方塊圖，我把它輪轉一圈，它會產生64種不同的組合，這種分析的情況下，對我們的參謀、幕僚判斷，它裡面講的都是真的現象，但是不會反映出真相。在這種情況下，AI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架，因為你問AI的並不是文字，並不是句子。第一個，你的information是從工情來的；第二個，你有database；第三個，你有邏輯框架；第四個，組織架構把這個變成一個infographic，餵進AI，那麼AI就會產生一些給你的建議，但這個建議是主觀、客觀，還是正確、不正確，這個有不同的結果。我舉個例給您聽，像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈，所有的東西都會不一樣。所以當你把美國它追求的目的，還是它的方法、手段做調整，也會有不一樣的結果。像這種東西，我做一個很簡單的。","（播放錄音）"],["陳委員永康：這個是AI就這個邏輯框架所做的回答，把這個回答再轉換成英文，你再送到另外一個AI的技術去，它又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整，就是說，它講的都是正確的，但是當你把框架的內容做了調整，你再問AI，它又會產生另外不同的一套，當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去，這個就變成假訊息了。這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者專家政治的判斷。","我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說，我希望我們在做研析的單位，第一個，先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來，大家做客觀的分析、溝通，確定我們的路徑、方法、手段，最後能不能支持我們的國安，這是一個大格局。這種情況下，再用AI的資料進來比對就會比較客觀，而不是直接去找這個是文字輸入，這個是語音輸入，第三個影像，最後變成一個動態，這四個全部可以組合。因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI，由研析幕僚單位來使用這個東西，因為第一個有時間的壓力，可是現在這個生成式的結果，像這個方塊圖我們改變一下，問它30秒，產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述，所以這個東西8乘8，它可以產生64種不同的結果。請問這種情況下，我們的幕僚如何去收斂？可能迴歸過來，你還要倒過來，用你的AI技術去過濾、再簡化，這個部分我是不是請局長做一個回應？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的方法論，我們局裡面事實上已經有投入滿長一段時間的研究。也跟委員說明的是，我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事布局，在啟動這樣的一個生成式AI系統過程當中，就正如委員所講的，我們必須要由研析人員來設定，我們當時設定的大概有70個指標，把70個指標建立到我們生成式AI的系統裡面去，在這些指標的資料運作之下，由它幫我們來預測中共人事可能的布局。跟委員說明的是，預測的正確率相當的高，這主要的重點就在於說，我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維，所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點。"],["陳委員永康：特別還是建議，就是說，我們做研析人員，他的工具，跟他的資料庫，需要持續在這方面投資增長，如果只是用純粹的一般工情，也許可以花點錢，很多軟體都會提供，但是邏輯框架就像您講的，預測系統包括你的資料庫，包括你的information，還有你的邏輯框架，最後送進AI的infographic，這個要有持續更新。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：我特別提出這個請局裡面在這部分努力。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝陳委員的指導，我們還有一些設計上的競賽，有時候用AI系統去做分析預判，有時候用人工系統來做分析預判，然後再做比較，這樣可以在過程當中不斷策進我們在AI運用方法論上的一些經驗。"],["陳委員永康：好，特別謝謝局長，大家共同努力。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們繼續來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員，局長請回。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：請林委員憶君發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}