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902.251, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 902.251, \"end\": 902.352, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 902.352, \"end\": 902.473, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 902.473, \"end\": 902.634, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 902.634, \"end\": 902.654, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:06,013\n政委那我們請局長那局長應該只剩下5分鐘那我們就前半度就先請國安局局長\n\n2\n00:00:07,011 --> 00:00:30,383\n好,謝謝委員。局長好。局長,上一次我們針對安全合可的部分來做質詢。那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為大概是只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們。那其他的國防相關、情資相關的這些官員,我總覺得就是要跳來跳去。那這點我很遺憾啊。那局長是來自從學界來,所以我從\n\n3\n00:00:31,584 --> 00:00:59,676\n我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的\n\n4\n00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:00,856\n國會幕僚\n\n5\n00:01:13,816 --> 00:01:34,275\n這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須\n\n6\n00:01:37,037 --> 00:01:58,550\n他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個\n\n7\n00:01:59,991 --> 00:02:00,951\n你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色?\n\n8\n00:02:26,818 --> 00:02:49,017\n因為一般來講國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點\n\n9\n00:02:49,477 --> 00:03:12,798\n美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來好不好謝謝謝謝周委員謝謝\n\n10\n00:03:15,603 --> 00:03:22,420\n時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續\n\n11\n00:03:30,795 --> 00:03:51,911\n謝謝主席委員好副局長那我們剛才提到的這一個部分就你所知國安局內部也好或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告就本局本局其實我們有\n\n12\n00:03:53,991 --> 00:04:03,507\n同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可\n\n13\n00:04:04,138 --> 00:04:05,660\n我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核\n\n14\n00:04:26,042 --> 00:04:39,615\n我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明\n\n15\n00:04:41,238 --> 00:05:08,961\n跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談\n\n16\n00:05:10,382 --> 00:05:31,173\n您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,\n\n17\n00:05:32,473 --> 00:05:56,843\n徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑\n\n18\n00:05:57,603 --> 00:05:57,703\n陳冠廷\n\n19\n00:06:28,564 --> 00:06:49,039\n我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握\n\n20\n00:06:49,739 --> 00:07:12,183\n像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛\n\n21\n00:07:12,743 --> 00:07:28,902\n我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的\n\n22\n00:07:30,183 --> 00:07:49,071\n也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況\n\n23\n00:07:50,091 --> 00:08:04,624\n包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應\n\n24\n00:08:05,945 --> 00:08:23,698\n你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部\n\n25\n00:08:24,659 --> 00:08:41,007\n也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊\n\n26\n00:08:42,108 --> 00:09:07,018\n可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛\n\n27\n00:09:08,208 --> 00:09:37,728\n我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話\n\n28\n00:09:38,968 --> 00:09:59,073\n國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了\n\n29\n00:09:59,787 --> 00:10:16,833\n所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話\n\n30\n00:10:17,073 --> 00:10:40,565\n安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須needtoknow你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道\n\n31\n00:10:41,405 --> 00:11:00,161\n你必須配合needtoknow跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色\n\n32\n00:11:00,982 --> 00:11:17,152\n因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料\n\n33\n00:11:19,773 --> 00:11:32,670\n函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．\n\n34\n00:11:34,430 --> 00:11:59,875\n國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎\n\n35\n00:12:01,195 --> 00:12:16,163\n其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全\n\n36\n00:12:17,003 --> 00:12:35,399\n外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?\n\n37\n00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:59,729\n其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那\n\n38\n00:13:00,885 --> 00:13:29,474\n我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分\n\n39\n00:13:29,994 --> 00:13:53,203\n我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊\n\n40\n00:13:54,246 --> 00:14:14,397\n美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門\n\n41\n00:14:15,477 --> 00:14:31,967\n其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天\n\n42\n00:14:33,069 --> 00:14:58,311\n沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來\n\n43\n00:15:00,357 --> 00:15:02,654\n你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t6013\t政委那我們請局長那局長應該只剩下5分鐘那我們就前半度就先請國安局局長\n7011\t30383\t好,謝謝委員。局長好。局長,上一次我們針對安全合可的部分來做質詢。那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為大概是只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們。那其他的國防相關、情資相關的這些官員,我總覺得就是要跳來跳去。那這點我很遺憾啊。那局長是來自從學界來,所以我從\n31584\t59676\t我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的\n60836\t60856\t國會幕僚\n73816\t94275\t這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須\n97037\t118550\t他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個\n119991\t120951\t你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色?\n146818\t169017\t因為一般來講 國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點\n169477\t192798\t美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他 包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來 好不好謝謝 謝謝周委員 謝謝\n195603\t202420\t時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續\n210795\t231911\t謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有\n233991\t243507\t同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可\n244138\t245660\t我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核\n266042\t279615\t我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明\n281238\t308961\t跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談\n310382\t331173\t您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,\n332473\t356843\t徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑\n357603\t357703\t陳冠廷\n388564\t409039\t我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握\n409739\t432183\t像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛\n432743\t448902\t我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的\n450183\t469071\t也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況\n470091\t484624\t包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應\n485945\t503698\t你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部\n504659\t521007\t也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊\n522108\t547018\t可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛\n548208\t577728\t我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話\n578968\t599073\t國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了\n599787\t616833\t所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話\n617073\t640565\t安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須need to know你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道\n641405\t660161\t你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色\n660982\t677152\t因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料\n679773\t692670\t函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．\n694430\t719875\t國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎\n721195\t736163\t其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全\n737003\t755399\t外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?\n756720\t779729\t其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那\n780885\t809474\t我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分\n809994\t833203\t我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊\n834246\t854397\t美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門\n855477\t871967\t其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天\n873069\t898311\t沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來\n900357\t902654\t你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員\n","txt":"政委那我們請局長那局長應該只剩下5分鐘那我們就前半度就先請國安局局長\n好,謝謝委員。局長好。局長,上一次我們針對安全合可的部分來做質詢。那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為大概是只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們。那其他的國防相關、情資相關的這些官員,我總覺得就是要跳來跳去。那這點我很遺憾啊。那局長是來自從學界來,所以我從\n我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的\n國會幕僚\n這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須\n他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個\n你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色?\n因為一般來講 國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點\n美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他 包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來 好不好謝謝 謝謝周委員 謝謝\n時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續\n謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有\n同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可\n我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核\n我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明\n跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談\n您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,\n徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑\n陳冠廷\n我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握\n像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛\n我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的\n也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況\n包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應\n你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部\n也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊\n可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛\n我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話\n國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了\n所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話\n安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須need to know你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道\n你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色\n因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料\n函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．\n國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎\n其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全\n外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?\n其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那\n我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分\n我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊\n美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門\n其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天\n沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來\n你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:06.013\n政委那我們請局長那局長應該只剩下5分鐘那我們就前半度就先請國安局局長\n\n00:07.011 --> 00:30.383\n好,謝謝委員。局長好。局長,上一次我們針對安全合可的部分來做質詢。那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為大概是只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們。那其他的國防相關、情資相關的這些官員,我總覺得就是要跳來跳去。那這點我很遺憾啊。那局長是來自從學界來,所以我從\n\n00:31.584 --> 00:59.676\n我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的\n\n01:00.836 --> 01:00.856\n國會幕僚\n\n01:13.816 --> 01:34.275\n這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須\n\n01:37.037 --> 01:58.550\n他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個\n\n01:59.991 --> 02:00.951\n你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色?\n\n02:26.818 --> 02:49.017\n因為一般來講國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點\n\n02:49.477 --> 03:12.798\n美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來好不好謝謝謝謝周委員謝謝\n\n03:15.603 --> 03:22.420\n時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續\n\n03:30.795 --> 03:51.911\n謝謝主席委員好副局長那我們剛才提到的這一個部分就你所知國安局內部也好或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告就本局本局其實我們有\n\n03:53.991 --> 04:03.507\n同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可\n\n04:04.138 --> 04:05.660\n我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核\n\n04:26.042 --> 04:39.615\n我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明\n\n04:41.238 --> 05:08.961\n跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談\n\n05:10.382 --> 05:31.173\n您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,\n\n05:32.473 --> 05:56.843\n徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑\n\n05:57.603 --> 05:57.703\n陳冠廷\n\n06:28.564 --> 06:49.039\n我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握\n\n06:49.739 --> 07:12.183\n像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛\n\n07:12.743 --> 07:28.902\n我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的\n\n07:30.183 --> 07:49.071\n也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況\n\n07:50.091 --> 08:04.624\n包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應\n\n08:05.945 --> 08:23.698\n你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部\n\n08:24.659 --> 08:41.007\n也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊\n\n08:42.108 --> 09:07.018\n可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛\n\n09:08.208 --> 09:37.728\n我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話\n\n09:38.968 --> 09:59.073\n國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了\n\n09:59.787 --> 10:16.833\n所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話\n\n10:17.073 --> 10:40.565\n安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須needtoknow你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道\n\n10:41.405 --> 11:00.161\n你必須配合needtoknow跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色\n\n11:00.982 --> 11:17.152\n因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料\n\n11:19.773 --> 11:32.670\n函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．\n\n11:34.430 --> 11:59.875\n國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎\n\n12:01.195 --> 12:16.163\n其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全\n\n12:17.003 --> 12:35.399\n外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?\n\n12:36.720 --> 12:59.729\n其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那\n\n13:00.885 --> 13:29.474\n我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分\n\n13:29.994 --> 13:53.203\n我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊\n\n13:54.246 --> 14:14.397\n美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門\n\n14:15.477 --> 14:31.967\n其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天\n\n14:33.069 --> 14:58.311\n沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來\n\n15:00.357 --> 15:02.654\n你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":6.013,"text":"政委那我們請局長那局長應該只剩下5分鐘那我們就前半度就先請國安局局長"},{"start":7.011,"end":30.383,"text":"好,謝謝委員。局長好。局長,上一次我們針對安全合可的部分來做質詢。那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為大概是只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們。那其他的國防相關、情資相關的這些官員,我總覺得就是要跳來跳去。那這點我很遺憾啊。那局長是來自從學界來,所以我從"},{"start":31.584,"end":59.676,"text":"我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的"},{"start":60.836,"end":60.856,"text":"國會幕僚"},{"start":73.816,"end":94.275,"text":"這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須"},{"start":97.037,"end":118.55,"text":"他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個"},{"start":119.991,"end":120.951,"text":"你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色?"},{"start":146.818,"end":169.017,"text":"因為一般來講 國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點"},{"start":169.477,"end":192.798,"text":"美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他 包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來 好不好謝謝 謝謝周委員 謝謝"},{"start":195.603,"end":202.42,"text":"時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續"},{"start":210.795,"end":231.911,"text":"謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有"},{"start":233.991,"end":243.507,"text":"同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可"},{"start":244.138,"end":245.66,"text":"我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核"},{"start":266.042,"end":279.615,"text":"我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明"},{"start":281.238,"end":308.961,"text":"跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談"},{"start":310.382,"end":331.173,"text":"您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,"},{"start":332.473,"end":356.843,"text":"徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑"},{"start":357.603,"end":357.703,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":388.564,"end":409.039,"text":"我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握"},{"start":409.739,"end":432.183,"text":"像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛"},{"start":432.743,"end":448.902,"text":"我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的"},{"start":450.183,"end":469.071,"text":"也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況"},{"start":470.091,"end":484.624,"text":"包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應"},{"start":485.945,"end":503.698,"text":"你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部"},{"start":504.659,"end":521.007,"text":"也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊"},{"start":522.108,"end":547.018,"text":"可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛"},{"start":548.208,"end":577.728,"text":"我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話"},{"start":578.968,"end":599.073,"text":"國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了"},{"start":599.787,"end":616.833,"text":"所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話"},{"start":617.073,"end":640.565,"text":"安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須need to know你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道"},{"start":641.405,"end":660.161,"text":"你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色"},{"start":660.982,"end":677.152,"text":"因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料"},{"start":679.773,"end":692.67,"text":"函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．"},{"start":694.43,"end":719.875,"text":"國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎"},{"start":721.195,"end":736.163,"text":"其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全"},{"start":737.003,"end":755.399,"text":"外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?"},{"start":756.72,"end":779.729,"text":"其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那"},{"start":780.885,"end":809.474,"text":"我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分"},{"start":809.994,"end":833.203,"text":"我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊"},{"start":834.246,"end":854.397,"text":"美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門"},{"start":855.477,"end":871.967,"text":"其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天"},{"start":873.069,"end":898.311,"text":"沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來"},{"start":900.357,"end":902.654,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時42分）我們請局長，局長應該只剩下5分鐘，我們前半段就先請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，上一次我們針對安全核可的部分來做質詢，那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為，大概只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們，其他國防相關、情資相關的這些官員，我總是覺得在跳來跳去，這點我很遺憾。局長是來自學界，所以從我們結束質詢之後，馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況，這點首先我必須要非常的讚可，並且謝謝國安局的同仁。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二點，國安的安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了，我一直不斷地重複這件事情，因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權力、責任、義務跟限制，也就是說我知道很多事情不代表我很厲害，而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報，而作為國會議員，我們是憲法的國會議員，我們憲法下的話，當然我們有一定的接密層級，包含總統、副總統跟這些國會議員都應該有，也必須有，但是我們上次提到的是什麼？提到國會幕僚，局長你上次提到說，包含歐洲有時候百分之百都是機密預算。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，預算的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：這是沒有錯的，我沒有說這是錯的，但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣一個問題，那是誰在核可、在審查？他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去，就百分之百這樣子來核可，那預算都不用監督嗎？答案是需要監督的，所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長，幕僚長必須……他們的老闆是國會議員，上次我們只是外交部的參訪團，國會議員助理參訪團，這些幕僚長都必須要接到有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的核可才能夠進去審查，有這個機制。","我必須再強調，從現在開始，我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全核可，就像我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的局處來去做安全核可跟背景核可，那在美國的話，95%是由他們的DCSA，就是國防部的反情報安全局來去做背景核可，那現在到底是由國防部做主要的查核，還是由國安局做這個查核，還是由調查局做這個查核？我只問這個問題，先請局長回應之後就請副局長回答，你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為一般來講，國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的查核，所以像委員所提到的，可能就我的理解，應該各單位還是要有自己的一個查核機制。再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們可以慢慢……我會希望之後再跟局長一起來思考一下這個立法的一個作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我最後再補充一點，美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的，國防部去負責95%的背景核可，因為其他包含國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的局處？沒有辦法嘛！所以95%是由一個局處來做統整，那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處，包含FBI等等，可能會有自己的查核方式，因為他們本身就是情治單位，所以這個部分我們來思考，我們先請副局長來。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：時間先暫停一下，趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔，我作一個宣告：待會兒馬文君委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。謝謝，請繼續。"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長，對於我們剛才提到的這一個部分，就你所知，國安局內部也好，或者是其他情治單位也好，他們做背景核可的主要核可東西是什麼？他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，就本局來講，其實我們有同仁進來以後，我們會做安全查核，如果是接密等級的話，其實我們都按接密等級的規定來進行身分的核可。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以副局長，你剛剛還是沒有回答到我的問題，我說你們是以什麼樣做背景審查，是以他過去有沒有犯罪紀錄、是以他過去的心理狀況、犯罪行為、機密資訊處理的能力，還是用什麼樣的方式？"],["張副局長元斌：委員，是這樣，我們基本上會接不同的機密，譬如密等、機密等，我們會有不同的查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我懂你的意思，但是我現在問的問題是說安全核可的背景查核，你們查詢他的背景資訊，裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明？"],["陳委員冠廷：沒問題。"],["陳處長：跟委員報告，有關我們查核的部分，基本上我們大概有一個SOP，包括他的素行也好，素行可能就包括家人這一部分；另外一個就是說，我們裡面也會做一個適性，而適性我們有特定的單位，特定單位會針對他的一個……我們基本上會做一個訪談。"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，怎麼稱呼？您的職銜是？"],["陳處長：報告委員，我是國內處處長。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝處長，適性跟背景查核在我們的友邦包含美國，它是兩個不同的，你適不適任這個職位，跟你的背景機密查核是不同的。"],["陳處長：沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：那你剛才把它混為一談，沒有關係，我為什麼要講這件事情？不是要刁難大家，而是希望說澈澈底底的全面檢討，從國安局開始，甚至由國安局來，未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核，因為這個東西已經不斷地被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的洩密、接密的這種混亂的機制，這是確實存在的，所以我們現在要把它建立起來。我剛才提到這個的原因是說，你們現在講了半天，最多就是講有沒有犯罪、素行，你怎麼認定一個人素行？就是犯罪紀錄嘛！包含我進國安會的時候，我的背景核可基本上就是把我的身家資料填完之後，我的學歷、經歷、背景等等之後，就看我有沒有犯罪紀錄，沒有犯罪紀錄，我基本上就被核可了，但不是嘛！有沒有犯罪紀錄是最基本的一個要求，不是完全的要求，有沒有針對他的機密資訊活動、外部行為跟有沒有受到外國影響、有沒有受到外國偏好、財務考量，這些是必須因應他的密等來去做最基本的考核，至少我過去的經驗告訴我說，這些都沒有放在考核裡面，包含他的心理狀況，包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用，這些其實就是……","我現在講的不是國防部的這些武官，包含文職人員，文職人員其實不是機密的掌握而已，包含政策、戰略方向的掌握，像我現在是國會議員，過去我是文職人員的話，我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚，所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響，如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些，有沒有受到外國的影響、有沒有外國的偏好、他的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準，每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行。我現在講的這個是包含我們國會幕僚，包含我們未來所有的……美國是聯邦機構，包含我們所有部會的機構，每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可最基本的建制要出來，而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會，也就是說，包含美國聯邦，他們是用SF 86的一個通用表格，把他們所有因應的接密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料，它是有通用性的，我們現在沒有通用性，所以才會出現這些狀況。我們來顯示一下最近幾次洩密的狀況，包含承包商也好，包含海軍、包含國防部內部的人員也好，包含法務部、廉政署派駐國防部的人員也好，你的接密層級是什麼？我問國防部部長，問來問去，大家都沒有……這個應該由廉政署來回應，如果你根本就沒有統一去做安全合格層級的制定的話，你從什麼時候開始講都太晚，我真的希望由處長或者是副局長跟局長來討論一下，到底是誰要建立一個最基本的架構？我剛才提到的是國防部，當然也可以是國安局，至少美國是有經過一連串的變化，它過去是從國家背景調查局，也就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的一個新局處，然後再合併到國防部的反情報安全局。也就是說，做法擺在那邊，可以學習，也可以去建立一個比較符合臺灣現狀的機制，但是不能不做，我相信你們也很清楚從國防部到國安局到各個情治單位，一定有被很多的盟邦友人講說這就是問題，這就是問題所在，為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新設備的其中一個原因，就是我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛！","我再提到國會議員的部分，從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起，基本上就是憲法所授予的職權，本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等，但是我為什麼說要把國會幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核？就是說在國會辦公室裡面，有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後，由這些沒有經過安全核可的職員洩漏出去？等於說沒有義務、沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話，國會也可以是一個破口。但國會不可以是破口，因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要來監督你們，所以包含國會議員以外的這些幕僚人員，必須要有一個機制去做審核，當這些人經過審核之後，我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口，因為他們已經經過安全審核了。","我們不是要把所有的東西都化成機密或最高機密，我們說你無所不防、無所不備，就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護，我一直在強調這一個概念，我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念？就是說當你沒有任何最基本機密的安全核可的話，其實安全核可只是第一步，你有這個安全核可不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊，你必須在你需要知道的時候才知道，比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置？我需要知道。但我需要知道機密裡面的細節嗎？比方說，我們的空軍飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌、用什麼樣的化學質地，我不需要知道，你必須把need to know跟你的安全核可搭配，才是所謂的揭密層級，我們現在只是過過場、做個樣子，過去是這樣，現在也是這樣，從今天開始我們就可以全面革新，但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色，我再次強調，我問其他部門的時候，他說其他部門應該要由他們內部自己的人士來做審查，沒有辦法做審查。我舉例國科會要怎麼給人家做背景審查？當然是由權責機關把這樣的資料函請國安局或相關國安單位，可以是調查局，也可以是國安局，這個我們要一起思考清楚，然後去做背景的安全核可，因為未來不是只有國防部才會接密，也不是只有外交部才會接密，國科會會不會接密？國科會也會啊！過去的科技部會不會接密？數位部會不會接密？他們接觸到的密等是越來越高，但是我們用過去的方式來對待他們的話，對於被懷疑的人而言是不公平的，如果沒有這樣子的機制的話，這個狀況還是會一再的出現，所以從海軍開始到承包商到其他部分全都一樣，現在就還是很凌亂，承包商有需要安全核可嗎？其實很多國家都需要，但你覺得現在有沒有很多人大剌剌的開著工程車進入營區的？當然都要檢查一下身分證什麼的，但其實你不知道核可的層級到哪裡。比方說，在美國國會他們有外交及國防相關的安全室，這個安全室裡面可以阻斷所有竊聽的儀器，我們的國會有嗎？沒有啊！這也需要情治單位來協助建置，不然我們所有的機密報告，其實大家摸著良心，有機密嗎？有機敏性嗎？我們也知道大概都沒有啦！你要給人家劃機密或最高機密，是因應假設這些資訊流出來，對這個局處或對這個國家的危害去判定的，而不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密，我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢，所以我就說這個東西很機敏，其實不是這樣子的，而是我們要有一定的作法。我昨天也在講，上個禮拜我們也在跟局長討論，就是說要建立這個機制的話，什麼時候是最好的時機？答案是十年前，但如果你十年前沒辦法做的話，那最好的方式就是現在做，謝謝。"],["陳處長：報告委員，我簡要做一個說明，有關機密核等的部分，事實上就國安局內部來講，除了我剛剛講的部分，包括剛剛委員所提到的，包括有關跟外國接觸的部分，包括心理、包括藥物使用的部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：我知道國安局都有，所以我剛剛講的是什麼？我指的是文職人員，包含國安會，我們講到的是包含各個不同部門的接密層級，過去包含外交部、內政部、數位部，其實都沒有在做背景審查，因為他們沒有編列相關預算，沒有這個部門去做嘛！美國國務院下面有外交安全局在做身分的核可，因為外交部不是你的業管範圍，所以我們就不說了，但是我們的各個部門有嗎？數位部有嗎？國科會可能有也可能沒有，這個我們要去查，但現在科技是我們的核心，我甚至要講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的部門？這些我們都一起來思考好不好？"],["陳處長：謝謝委員，這個我們共同來研究，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長，這個可能要跟局長討論一下好不好？就是你們有開跨部會會議的時候，做一個表率跟大家一起來，不然一直都沒有相關機制，我是覺得很可惜啦！已經有點晚了，已經被人家講到這樣子，每次都說我們國家的機密保守狀況不好，你看才幾個月？從我上任到現在九個月，已經多少事了？你看像陸戰66旅工程竟然用逃逸移工，這個甚至沒有安全核可，甚至連身分證都沒有拿出來，你懂我意思嗎？這個不太對啦，好不好？"],["陳處長：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，副局長請回。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}