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0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,630 --> 00:00:06,296\n謝謝主席麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早\n\n2\n00:00:22,407 --> 00:00:45,915\n副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨\n\n3\n00:00:47,995 --> 00:01:16,633\n我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好\n\n4\n00:01:17,981 --> 00:01:34,133\n不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要\n\n5\n00:01:35,354 --> 00:01:37,295\n政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?\n\n6\n00:01:56,143 --> 00:02:15,631\n跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的\n\n7\n00:02:17,782 --> 00:02:37,393\n我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論\n\n8\n00:02:40,154 --> 00:02:55,837\n本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面\n\n9\n00:02:56,798 --> 00:03:00,541\n對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟\n\n10\n00:03:16,352 --> 00:03:16,953\n現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。\n\n11\n00:03:41,588 --> 00:03:57,222\n報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對\n\n12\n00:03:58,103 --> 00:04:01,264\n報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政\n\n13\n00:04:18,928 --> 00:04:24,712\n對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應\n\n14\n00:04:47,687 --> 00:04:54,711\n向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所\n\n15\n00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:14,080\n：馬文君\n\n16\n00:05:33,513 --> 00:05:34,534\n警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?\n\n17\n00:06:03,813 --> 00:06:09,038\n在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數\n\n18\n00:06:32,657 --> 00:06:35,840\n所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙\n\n19\n00:06:57,959 --> 00:06:57,999\n主席\n\n20\n00:07:28,099 --> 00:07:50,795\n就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力\n\n21\n00:07:53,044 --> 00:07:56,488\n所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾\n\n22\n00:08:14,986 --> 00:08:18,228\n說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是\n\n23\n00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:35,876\n馬文君\n\n24\n00:09:06,637 --> 00:09:22,959\n說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳\n\n25\n00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:33,885\n或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣\n\n26\n00:09:48,433 --> 00:10:08,620\n是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗\n\n27\n00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:13,321\n你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面\n\n28\n00:10:29,386 --> 00:10:30,186\n你告訴我!\n\n29\n00:10:49,991 --> 00:10:54,454\n你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的\n\n30\n00:11:18,932 --> 00:11:22,676\n可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好\n\n31\n00:11:39,915 --> 00:11:51,510\n所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼\n\n32\n00:11:52,250 --> 00:12:06,615\n我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒\n\n33\n00:12:12,737 --> 00:12:24,021\n譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook\n\n34\n00:12:28,783 --> 00:12:31,364\n你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員\n\n35\n00:12:44,448 --> 00:12:51,653\n就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外\n\n36\n00:13:14,127 --> 00:13:16,829\n我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金\n\n37\n00:13:35,803 --> 00:13:38,044\n請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n630\t6296\t謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早\n22407\t45915\t副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨\n47995\t76633\t我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好\n77981\t94133\t不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要\n95354\t97295\t政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?\n116143\t135631\t跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的\n137782\t157393\t我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論\n160154\t175837\t本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面\n176798\t180541\t對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟\n196352\t196953\t現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。\n221588\t237222\t報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對\n238103\t241264\t報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政\n258928\t264712\t對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應\n287687\t294711\t向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所\n314000\t314080\t：馬文君\n333513\t334534\t警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?\n363813\t369038\t在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數\n392657\t395840\t所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙\n417959\t417999\t主席\n448099\t470795\t就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力\n473044\t476488\t所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾\n494986\t498228\t說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是\n515836\t515876\t馬文君\n546637\t562959\t說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳\n563740\t573885\t或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣\n588433\t608620\t是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗\n608660\t613321\t你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面\n629386\t630186\t你告訴我!\n649991\t654454\t你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的\n678932\t682676\t可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好\n699915\t711510\t所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼\n712250\t726615\t我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒\n732737\t744021\t譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook\n748783\t751364\t你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員\n764448\t771653\t就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外\n794127\t796829\t我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金\n815803\t818044\t請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重\n845930\t846459\t謝偉\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早\n副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨\n我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好\n不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要\n政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?\n跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的\n我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論\n本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面\n對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟\n現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。\n報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對\n報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政\n對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應\n向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所\n：馬文君\n警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?\n在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數\n所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙\n主席\n就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力\n所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾\n說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是\n馬文君\n說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳\n或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣\n是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗\n你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面\n你告訴我!\n你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的\n可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好\n所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼\n我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒\n譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook\n你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員\n就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外\n我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金\n請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重\n謝偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.630 --> 00:06.296\n謝謝主席麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早\n\n00:22.407 --> 00:45.915\n副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨\n\n00:47.995 --> 01:16.633\n我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好\n\n01:17.981 --> 01:34.133\n不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要\n\n01:35.354 --> 01:37.295\n政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?\n\n01:56.143 --> 02:15.631\n跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的\n\n02:17.782 --> 02:37.393\n我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論\n\n02:40.154 --> 02:55.837\n本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面\n\n02:56.798 --> 03:00.541\n對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟\n\n03:16.352 --> 03:16.953\n現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。\n\n03:41.588 --> 03:57.222\n報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對\n\n03:58.103 --> 04:01.264\n報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政\n\n04:18.928 --> 04:24.712\n對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應\n\n04:47.687 --> 04:54.711\n向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所\n\n05:14.000 --> 05:14.080\n：馬文君\n\n05:33.513 --> 05:34.534\n警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?\n\n06:03.813 --> 06:09.038\n在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數\n\n06:32.657 --> 06:35.840\n所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙\n\n06:57.959 --> 06:57.999\n主席\n\n07:28.099 --> 07:50.795\n就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力\n\n07:53.044 --> 07:56.488\n所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾\n\n08:14.986 --> 08:18.228\n說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是\n\n08:35.836 --> 08:35.876\n馬文君\n\n09:06.637 --> 09:22.959\n說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳\n\n09:23.740 --> 09:33.885\n或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣\n\n09:48.433 --> 10:08.620\n是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗\n\n10:08.660 --> 10:13.321\n你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面\n\n10:29.386 --> 10:30.186\n你告訴我!\n\n10:49.991 --> 10:54.454\n你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的\n\n11:18.932 --> 11:22.676\n可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好\n\n11:39.915 --> 11:51.510\n所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼\n\n11:52.250 --> 12:06.615\n我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒\n\n12:12.737 --> 12:24.021\n譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook\n\n12:28.783 --> 12:31.364\n你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員\n\n12:44.448 --> 12:51.653\n就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外\n\n13:14.127 --> 13:16.829\n我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金\n\n13:35.803 --> 13:38.044\n請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.63,"end":6.296,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早"},{"start":22.407,"end":45.915,"text":"副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨"},{"start":47.995,"end":76.633,"text":"我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好"},{"start":77.981,"end":94.133,"text":"不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要"},{"start":95.354,"end":97.295,"text":"政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?"},{"start":116.143,"end":135.631,"text":"跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的"},{"start":137.782,"end":157.393,"text":"我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論"},{"start":160.154,"end":175.837,"text":"本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面"},{"start":176.798,"end":180.541,"text":"對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟"},{"start":196.352,"end":196.953,"text":"現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。"},{"start":221.588,"end":237.222,"text":"報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對"},{"start":238.103,"end":241.264,"text":"報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政"},{"start":258.928,"end":264.712,"text":"對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應"},{"start":287.687,"end":294.711,"text":"向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所"},{"start":314,"end":314.08,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":333.513,"end":334.534,"text":"警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?"},{"start":363.813,"end":369.038,"text":"在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數"},{"start":392.657,"end":395.84,"text":"所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙"},{"start":417.959,"end":417.999,"text":"主席"},{"start":448.099,"end":470.795,"text":"就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力"},{"start":473.044,"end":476.488,"text":"所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾"},{"start":494.986,"end":498.228,"text":"說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是"},{"start":515.836,"end":515.876,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":546.637,"end":562.959,"text":"說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳"},{"start":563.74,"end":573.885,"text":"或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":588.433,"end":608.62,"text":"是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗"},{"start":608.66,"end":613.321,"text":"你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面"},{"start":629.386,"end":630.186,"text":"你告訴我!"},{"start":649.991,"end":654.454,"text":"你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的"},{"start":678.932,"end":682.676,"text":"可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好"},{"start":699.915,"end":711.51,"text":"所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼"},{"start":712.25,"end":726.615,"text":"我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒"},{"start":732.737,"end":744.021,"text":"譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook"},{"start":748.783,"end":751.364,"text":"你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員"},{"start":764.448,"end":771.653,"text":"就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外"},{"start":794.127,"end":796.829,"text":"我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金"},{"start":815.803,"end":818.044,"text":"請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重"},{"start":845.93,"end":846.459,"text":"謝偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局、數發部、警政署。"],["張副局長元斌：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：早。副局長，我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應，其實最近不管是國內外的政治也好，或者很多的樣態，這個部分被運用得越來越多，然後可能也越來越真假難辨。上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份國安備忘錄，要求五角大廈及情報體系要強化運用AI技術，確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢，所謂對手大概很大的一部分指的是中國大陸，因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速，不論是AI也好，量子技術也好。不過美國同時也明確禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為，也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控，相對的，其實任何國家要訂定相關規範的時候，人民的言論自由可能都是應該要保障的，對不對？我們的政府跟國安部門有沒有類似美國白宮發表的國安備忘錄，規範政府使用AI技術的框架，目前有沒有？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，因為AI的進步太快，所以它延伸了便利，同時也會帶來很多的威脅，除了剛剛委員所提到的美國以外，歐盟也在近年提出人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣在使用AI的同時，也能兼顧到它不要誤用……"],["馬委員文君：我們有沒有？我要知道的是我們有沒有。"],["張副局長元斌：我們國家目前是由國科會在草擬一個人工智慧的基本法，這個部分我們政府機關已經討論了很多次，年底前應該會交付行政院來做討論，本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的討論，也提供了相關的意見。這個目的是要兼顧鼓勵創新還有人民的權益。委員剛剛考量的，在人工智慧基本法法案裡面就有明確的要求，就是要兼顧到人民既有的人權跟機敏資訊的維護，還有不能夠濫用它，這個是在基本法就已經有匡定的。"],["馬委員文君：對，基本法，我想那個本來就是基本的，像美國、歐盟，在運用這個部分或者在訂定規範，當然不可以影響到人民，可是我現在要詢問的是，剛剛副局長有提到，有可能在年底之前就送出來嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：我們看進度大概是年底，年底會在……"],["馬委員文君：年底之前可以嗎？這是國科會做的嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：對，國科會。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以？現在的進度簡單說明就好，進度就好。"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，進度的部分，我們已經送到行政院了，所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的討論跟審查。"],["馬委員文君：目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分，對不對？"],["蔡處長妙慈：不是，是AI基本法。"],["馬委員文君：基本法？"],["蔡處長妙慈：對。"],["馬委員文君：它的內容是只有針對政府部門，還是包含比如工商業界還有科技界？所有的、廣泛的都有嗎？是不是對所有的對象？"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的這個整體政策方針，主要是先規範政府的一些相關施政。"],["馬委員文君：對，因為你現在只有對政府，可是現在它日新月異，然後在它技術不斷進步的當下，我們到年底才可以出來。可是到年底時，你推出的還只是政府的部分，我們剛剛提到的，包括像工商界、科技界，很多運用在人民的身上，因為現在大家看到，而且最在乎的，除了剛剛的這些以外，像你們的報告都集中在對應像境外組織還有科技的運用，可是資安的錯假訊息，人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案。目前為止，包括像美國股神巴菲特5月份在股東會對人工智慧也發出警語，他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐。社群媒體所開發的很多很多像這樣的AI工具，其實也都被廣泛地運用，這些部分，像深偽技術、合成的照片等等，都成為各國詐騙集團善用的工具。我想要知道，我們對於這個部分有什麼樣的作法？我先請教一下警政署，我們目前對於詐騙防制的效果，您覺得好嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，目前我們在相關社群媒體，有關可能涉及詐騙的這些……"],["馬委員文君：效果好不好？"],["林副局長信雄：我們今年度已經通報相關的公司下架了十一萬多則可能涉及詐騙的廣告，所以這部分我們在跟相關公司的聯繫上效果算是不錯的。當然，還有一些還要再努力、進步的地方，因為確實相關的廣告……"],["馬委員文君：你們效果不錯？你們說效果不錯，可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件，到2023年已經暴增到超過3萬5,000件，像今年，其實它的成長速度更快，遭詐的損失，甚至在去年就達88.7億，這個還是有報案的數據，有很多如果比較小額的，或者大家沒有報案的，其實多不勝數，所以如果像這樣一直增加的情況之下，你們還認為你們效果不錯，那不錯在哪裡？它為什麼還是會一直增加？然後它的問題會出現在哪裡？我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案。在警政署上面，其實我覺得可能也有很多窒礙難行的地方，對於基層的員警，現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去宣導反詐騙，你覺得像這樣子的效果會是好的嗎？這個部分請警政署再去考量比較有效的方式，因為我剛剛提到，我們在地方上看到大家都很辛苦，只要大大小小的活動，或者專門為了反詐騙的，你就舉個牌子，這樣會是有效的嗎？","我們再請國安局副局長好了。我請教副局長，當時在防疫的時候，我們臺灣號稱防疫做得非常不錯，原因是什麼？就副局長您的分析，防疫為什麼做得不錯？"],["張副局長元斌：就我們防疫來講，我覺得政府在邊境的控管，還有相關的通報機制跟應處機制方面，有做很多的努力。"],["馬委員文君：所以當那個會影響到民眾，而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌，其實我們用很多的方式，讓我們的防疫作為是有效的，就是在整個防疫措施上面，其實是有效的，有很重要的一點是，其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷地在提醒民眾，我們防疫應該怎麼做，你的口罩應該怎麼戴，你應該要做什麼樣的預防措施或怎麼防範，其實做得非常的多，其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播。像我剛剛講的，我們所有的警察同仁都是……我們才多少人？本來一個所才4個人，自己的工作已經都做不了了，像車禍或其他案件發生的時候，往往都是自己一個人就出去了，還要再配合這個舉牌，這個都是非常非常辛苦，對於效果來說，其實是有問題的，這個部分國安單位其實應該要去提醒。","我想要請教數發部，我們編了那麼多錢，像我剛剛提到的，數發部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官，他們認為我們是三大戰犯之一，就是我們對於臺灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防制，或者做更有效的宣傳，或者在我們的技術上面，沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止。數發部，像這樣子，你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳？像我剛剛講的防疫，因為你讓每個人都知道他應該要怎麼做，然後什麼不能做，如果你要把很多的錢拿去出國，還不如用很多在宣傳上面，這部分數發部的看法怎麼樣？"],["林次長宜敬：非常感謝委員。基本上，我認為臺灣之前在防疫之所以做得特別好，就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作面對這個狀況，所謂的政府包含行政部門，也包含立法部門，在行政部門當然也要分工，然後在打詐議題這件事情上面的話……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，不用、不用，那個我們知道，你告訴我們怎麼做就好，數發部可以怎麼做。"],["林次長宜敬：好，我跟委員報告一下，基本上現在的詐騙，也是一個產業鏈，它的作法是這樣子，就是詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平臺上，它會放一個廣告，把民眾騙到LINE的私人空間裡面……"],["馬委員文君：對，我知道，你告訴我……"],["林次長宜敬：然後數發部負責的事情就是在前端，我們儘量避免讓民眾被騙到這個LINE的小房間裡面去進行詐騙的工作。至於後面的詐騙發生以後，就是警政署還有金管會要做的事情，所以我們整個政府應該是一個團隊，我們一起合作來面對這個事情，我們也希望立法院這邊給我們多一些……"],["馬委員文君：你簡單的告訴我們，因為你不管是前段、後段，現在不管哪一段，反正都是破口啦！所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛，我們要知道的是政府的具體作為，我剛剛已經建議，如果數發部有這麼高額的預算，你們是不是應該隨時、24小時都要提醒？你不管從哪一個管道，從社群網站也好，或者從媒體也好，或者從其他可能發生的管道也好，儘量讓人民知道現在有什麼樣的詐騙手法，因為至少你每天提醒，人家就會有所警惕。但你今天不是啊！你等到後面，你要去抓、去預防什麼的，其實大概目前為止，你們是做不到的，而且做得不好，所以民眾才會有感，而且也會對政府不信任，所以就這個部分數發部可以做到什麼？簡單說就好了，像你們在宣傳上面可以配合做到什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：我們可以做到的事情，一個當然就像委員所講的加強宣導。另外，我們就是利用網路的機制，接受民眾的報案，民眾報案以後，我們就趕快地去分案。"],["馬委員文君：報案以後通常都來不及了啦！我們現在……"],["林次長宜敬：不是，我講的是前面廣告的部分，這就是我前面講的分工部分，我們負責的是前端，這個地方只是偽冒，所謂的impersonation，就是仿冒名人的這個部分，如果有人仿冒謝金河的話，我們就馬上去通知謝金河，請他做確認，確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook……"],["馬委員文君：你沒有聽清楚我講的話，如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河，你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關金融代表性的人物，或者像一些代表性的，今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員，如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些人，你應該不斷、不斷地提醒，不是當你發生的時候才去告訴謝金河，那已經被騙一堆啦！你應該要站在更前面，數發部不要編了錢，但你做的事情都是在後端的，反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同。","今天因為時間的關係，就這個部分，我覺得人民對於詐騙案才是有感的，我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外，我們無能為力，我再次強調，我們無能為力，像這樣被騙到緬甸或其他地方，這也都是詐騙，不斷、不斷地一直在發生，而且手段越來越殘忍，然後他要的金額也很多，他被騙去以後大概就是會被要求一些贖金，有沒有讓他回來我們不曉得，這個部分請國安單位還有警政署也持續掌握，好不好？","因為今天可能也沒有一個具體的結論跟說法，就這個部分，數發部或者警政署可以有什麼樣積極的作為，請再提供給我們一個更詳細、具體的書面資料，請國安局一定要掌握這個部分，比起其他的，這個可能危害我們國家或者人民的信心更重。"],["張副局長元斌：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}