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\"我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 55.281, \"end\": 55.501, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 55.501, \"end\": 55.881, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 55.881, \"end\": 56.041, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 56.041, \"end\": 56.202, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 56.202, \"end\": 56.422, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 56.422, \"end\": 56.942, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 56.942, \"end\": 57.122, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 57.122, \"end\": 57.942, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 57.942, \"end\": 58.903, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 58.903, \"end\": 59.163, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 59.163, \"end\": 59.363, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"冒\", \"start\": 59.363, \"end\": 59.583, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 59.583, \"end\": 59.783, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 59.783, \"end\": 59.923, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 59.923, \"end\": 60.063, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"粉\", \"start\": 60.063, \"end\": 61.464, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 61.464, \"end\": 61.784, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"廣\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 61.784, \"end\": 61.964, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 61.964, \"end\": 62.084, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 62.084, \"end\": 62.264, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.264, \"end\": 62.404, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 62.404, \"end\": 62.944, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 62.944, \"end\": 63.224, \"score\": 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70.147, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 70.147, \"end\": 70.267, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 70.267, \"end\": 71.167, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 71.167, \"end\": 71.287, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 71.287, \"end\": 71.387, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 71.387, \"end\": 71.948, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 71.948, \"end\": 72.248, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 72.248, \"end\": 72.768, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 72.768, \"end\": 73.048, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 73.048, \"end\": 73.308, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 73.308, \"end\": 73.468, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 73.468, \"end\": 73.568, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 73.568, \"end\": 73.748, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 73.748, \"end\": 73.908, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 73.908, \"end\": 74.168, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 74.168, \"end\": 74.449, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 74.449, \"end\": 74.589, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 74.589, \"end\": 74.809, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 74.809, \"end\": 75.049, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 75.049, \"end\": 75.329, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 75.329, \"end\": 75.949, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"繩\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 75.949, \"end\": 76.149, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 76.149, \"end\": 76.729, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 76.729, \"end\": 77.25, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 77.25, \"end\": 77.45, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 77.45, \"end\": 77.61, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 77.61, \"end\": 77.85, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 77.85, \"end\": 77.99, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 77.99, \"end\": 78.11, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 78.11, \"end\": 78.35, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 78.35, \"end\": 79.33, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 79.33, \"end\": 79.47, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 79.47, \"end\": 79.791, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 79.791, \"end\": 79.971, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 79.971, \"end\": 80.211, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 80.211, \"end\": 80.331, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 80.331, \"end\": 80.531, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 80.531, \"end\": 80.691, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 80.691, \"end\": 80.871, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 80.871, \"end\": 81.011, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 81.011, \"end\": 81.151, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 81.151, \"end\": 81.251, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 81.251, \"end\": 81.311, \"score\": 0.553}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 81.311, \"end\": 81.331, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 83.763, \"end\": 86.444, \"text\": \"我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 83.763, \"end\": 83.923, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 83.923, \"end\": 84.043, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 84.043, \"end\": 84.103, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 84.103, \"end\": 84.123, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 84.123, \"end\": 84.283, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"打\", \"start\": 84.283, \"end\": 84.363, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 84.363, \"end\": 84.403, \"score\": 0.49}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 84.403, \"end\": 84.563, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"粉\", \"start\": 84.563, \"end\": 84.683, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 84.683, \"end\": 84.844, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 84.844, \"end\": 84.964, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 84.964, \"end\": 84.984, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 84.984, \"end\": 85.124, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.124, \"end\": 85.264, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 85.264, \"end\": 85.344, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 85.344, \"end\": 85.384, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.384, \"end\": 85.524, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 85.524, \"end\": 85.544, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.544, \"end\": 85.624, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 85.624, \"end\": 85.724, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 85.724, \"end\": 85.764, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 85.764, \"end\": 85.904, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"擁\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 85.904, \"end\": 86.024, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 86.024, \"end\": 86.084, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 86.084, \"end\": 86.124, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 86.124, \"end\": 86.264, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 86.264, \"end\": 86.424, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 86.424, \"end\": 86.444, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 110.41, \"end\": 116.812, \"text\": \"被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 110.41, \"end\": 111.01, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"粉\", \"start\": 111.01, \"end\": 111.51, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 111.51, \"end\": 111.751, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 111.751, \"end\": 111.991, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 111.991, \"end\": 112.131, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 112.131, \"end\": 112.251, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 112.251, \"end\": 112.631, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 112.631, \"end\": 112.851, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 112.851, \"end\": 113.111, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 113.111, \"end\": 113.411, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 113.411, \"end\": 113.731, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 116.452, \"end\": 116.472, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 116.472, \"end\": 116.512, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 116.512, \"end\": 116.532, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"臉\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 116.532, \"end\": 116.612, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 116.612, \"end\": 116.632, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"弟\", \"start\": 116.632, \"end\": 116.672, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 116.672, \"end\": 116.772, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 116.772, \"end\": 116.792, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 116.792, \"end\": 116.812, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 126.871, \"end\": 140.542, \"text\": \"臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"臉\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 126.871, \"end\": 126.972, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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\"他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 217.52, \"end\": 217.66, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 217.66, \"end\": 217.78, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 217.78, \"end\": 218.281, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 218.281, \"end\": 218.621, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 218.621, \"end\": 218.701, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 218.701, \"end\": 219.523, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 219.523, \"end\": 219.643, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 219.643, \"end\": 219.703, \"score\": 0.342}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 219.703, \"end\": 219.863, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 219.863, \"end\": 219.983, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 219.983, \"end\": 220.263, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": 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0.865}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 223.728, \"end\": 225.069, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"緊\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 225.069, \"end\": 225.19, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 225.19, \"end\": 225.47, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.47, \"end\": 225.61, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 225.61, \"end\": 225.79, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 225.79, \"end\": 225.991, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 225.991, \"end\": 226.131, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 226.131, \"end\": 226.231, \"score\": 0.546}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 226.231, \"end\": 226.371, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 226.371, \"end\": 226.511, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 226.511, \"end\": 226.731, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"部\", 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228.313, \"end\": 228.494, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 228.494, \"end\": 228.514, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 236.485, \"end\": 256.895, \"text\": \"委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 236.485, \"end\": 236.745, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 236.745, \"end\": 237.065, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"憤\"}, {\"word\": \"怒\", \"start\": 237.065, \"end\": 237.426, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 237.426, \"end\": 237.646, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 237.646, \"end\": 237.786, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 237.786, \"end\": 237.966, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 237.966, \"end\": 238.186, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 238.186, \"end\": 238.426, \"score\": 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255.614, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 255.614, \"end\": 255.854, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 255.854, \"end\": 256.034, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 256.034, \"end\": 256.174, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 256.174, \"end\": 256.354, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 256.354, \"end\": 256.475, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 256.475, \"end\": 256.655, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 256.655, \"end\": 256.875, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 256.875, \"end\": 256.895, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 257.535, \"end\": 269.026, \"text\": \"所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 257.535, \"end\": 257.655, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 257.655, \"end\": 258.256, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 780.774, \"end\": 780.794, \"score\": 0.354}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,765 --> 00:00:28,432\n主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳俞瑾下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係\n\n2\n00:00:30,414 --> 00:00:54,083\n警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書它是上市公司、商業公司還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的\n\n3\n00:00:55,281 --> 00:01:21,331\n我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有\n\n4\n00:01:23,763 --> 00:01:26,444\n我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布\n\n5\n00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:56,812\n被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是\n\n6\n00:02:06,871 --> 00:02:20,542\n臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的\n\n7\n00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:41,769\n然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說\n\n8\n00:02:53,874 --> 00:03:07,183\n速發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服勒如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們速發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書\n\n9\n00:03:08,772 --> 00:03:22,660\n去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書上述發布說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程\n\n10\n00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:48,514\n他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊\n\n11\n00:03:56,485 --> 00:04:16,895\n委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:17,535 --> 00:04:29,026\n所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是\n\n13\n00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:55,777\n報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法遵部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵\n\n14\n00:04:56,457 --> 00:05:25,331\n所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力\n\n15\n00:05:26,351 --> 00:05:41,951\n事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦\n\n16\n00:05:42,452 --> 00:06:07,739\n是沒錯這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔是我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應\n\n17\n00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:17,113\n大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大\n\n18\n00:06:18,206 --> 00:06:45,843\n美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界\n\n19\n00:06:46,323 --> 00:06:46,924\n市長,所以這件事情\n\n20\n00:06:57,386 --> 00:07:21,785\n要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我們能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙\n\n21\n00:07:23,146 --> 00:07:37,794\n包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊\n\n22\n00:07:38,334 --> 00:08:05,520\n是非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書\n\n23\n00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:27,601\n他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片\n\n24\n00:08:28,422 --> 00:08:45,561\n您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然\n\n25\n00:08:46,562 --> 00:09:08,885\n可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源\n\n26\n00:09:10,831 --> 00:09:27,312\n各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了\n\n27\n00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:42,189\n有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理\n\n28\n00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:59,797\n那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為\n\n29\n00:10:00,897 --> 00:10:06,339\n目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他\n\n30\n00:10:25,376 --> 00:10:50,385\n他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣\n\n31\n00:10:50,999 --> 00:11:18,496\n這要看他的影像本身原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話這我們不管保證好來那副局長最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說我只是簡單舉因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒\n\n32\n00:11:19,841 --> 00:11:35,261\n阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來\n\n33\n00:11:35,962 --> 00:11:49,876\n代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下\n\n34\n00:11:50,601 --> 00:12:07,086\n並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是\n\n35\n00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:34,485\n發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防\n\n36\n00:12:36,085 --> 00:13:00,794\n謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n765\t28432\t主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳俞瑾下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係\n30414\t54083\t警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書它是上市公司、商業公司還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的\n55281\t81331\t我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有\n83763\t86444\t我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布\n110410\t116812\t被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是\n126871\t140542\t臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的\n143100\t161769\t然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說\n173874\t187183\t速發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服勒如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們速發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書\n188772\t202660\t去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書上述發布說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程\n217520\t228514\t他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊\n236485\t256895\t委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?\n257535\t269026\t所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是\n273090\t295777\t報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法遵部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵\n296457\t325331\t所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力\n326351\t341951\t事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦\n342452\t367739\t是沒錯這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔是我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應\n369670\t377113\t大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大\n378206\t405843\t美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界\n406323\t406924\t市長,所以這件事情\n417386\t441785\t要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我們能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙\n443146\t457794\t包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊\n458334\t485520\t是 非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書\n486980\t507601\t他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來 謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉 那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片\n508422\t525561\t您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然\n526562\t548885\t可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源\n550831\t567312\t各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了\n568234\t582189\t有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理\n582790\t599797\t那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為\n600897\t606339\t目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他\n625376\t650385\t他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣\n650999\t678496\t這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒\n679841\t695261\t阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來\n695962\t709876\t代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下\n710601\t727086\t並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是\n738516\t754485\t發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防\n756085\t780794\t謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳俞瑾下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係\n警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書它是上市公司、商業公司還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的\n我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有\n我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布\n被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是\n臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的\n然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說\n速發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服勒如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們速發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書\n去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書上述發布說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程\n他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊\n委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?\n所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是\n報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法遵部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵\n所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力\n事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦\n是沒錯這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔是我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應\n大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大\n美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界\n市長,所以這件事情\n要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我們能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙\n包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊\n是 非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書\n他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來 謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉 那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片\n您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然\n可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源\n各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了\n有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理\n那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為\n目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他\n他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣\n這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒\n阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來\n代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下\n並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是\n發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防\n謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.765 --> 00:28.432\n主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳俞瑾下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係\n\n00:30.414 --> 00:54.083\n警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書它是上市公司、商業公司還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的\n\n00:55.281 --> 01:21.331\n我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有\n\n01:23.763 --> 01:26.444\n我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布\n\n01:50.410 --> 01:56.812\n被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是\n\n02:06.871 --> 02:20.542\n臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的\n\n02:23.100 --> 02:41.769\n然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說\n\n02:53.874 --> 03:07.183\n速發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服勒如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們速發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書\n\n03:08.772 --> 03:22.660\n去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書上述發布說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程\n\n03:37.520 --> 03:48.514\n他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊\n\n03:56.485 --> 04:16.895\n委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?\n\n04:17.535 --> 04:29.026\n所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是\n\n04:33.090 --> 04:55.777\n報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法遵部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵\n\n04:56.457 --> 05:25.331\n所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力\n\n05:26.351 --> 05:41.951\n事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦\n\n05:42.452 --> 06:07.739\n是沒錯這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔是我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應\n\n06:09.670 --> 06:17.113\n大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大\n\n06:18.206 --> 06:45.843\n美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界\n\n06:46.323 --> 06:46.924\n市長,所以這件事情\n\n06:57.386 --> 07:21.785\n要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我們能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙\n\n07:23.146 --> 07:37.794\n包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊\n\n07:38.334 --> 08:05.520\n是非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書\n\n08:06.980 --> 08:27.601\n他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片\n\n08:28.422 --> 08:45.561\n您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然\n\n08:46.562 --> 09:08.885\n可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源\n\n09:10.831 --> 09:27.312\n各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了\n\n09:28.234 --> 09:42.189\n有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理\n\n09:42.790 --> 09:59.797\n那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為\n\n10:00.897 --> 10:06.339\n目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他\n\n10:25.376 --> 10:50.385\n他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣\n\n10:50.999 --> 11:18.496\n這要看他的影像本身原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話這我們不管保證好來那副局長最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說我只是簡單舉因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒\n\n11:19.841 --> 11:35.261\n阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來\n\n11:35.962 --> 11:49.876\n代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下\n\n11:50.601 --> 12:07.086\n並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是\n\n12:18.516 --> 12:34.485\n發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防\n\n12:36.085 --> 13:00.794\n謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.765,"end":28.432,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳俞瑾下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係"},{"start":30.414,"end":54.083,"text":"警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書它是上市公司、商業公司還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的"},{"start":55.281,"end":81.331,"text":"我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望它能夠加強內部的一個繩額所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動繩額下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有"},{"start":83.763,"end":86.444,"text":"我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布"},{"start":110.41,"end":116.812,"text":"被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是"},{"start":126.871,"end":140.542,"text":"臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的"},{"start":143.1,"end":161.769,"text":"然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說"},{"start":173.874,"end":187.183,"text":"速發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服勒如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們速發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書"},{"start":188.772,"end":202.66,"text":"去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書上述發布說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程"},{"start":217.52,"end":228.514,"text":"他就跟訴發部講一下,然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係,不要緊結果我們的警政署、我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任,會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊"},{"start":236.485,"end":256.895,"text":"委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦了很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?"},{"start":257.535,"end":269.026,"text":"所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是"},{"start":273.09,"end":295.777,"text":"報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法遵部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵"},{"start":296.457,"end":325.331,"text":"所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力"},{"start":326.351,"end":341.951,"text":"事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦"},{"start":342.452,"end":367.739,"text":"是沒錯這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔是我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應"},{"start":369.67,"end":377.113,"text":"大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大"},{"start":378.206,"end":405.843,"text":"美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界"},{"start":406.323,"end":406.924,"text":"市長,所以這件事情"},{"start":417.386,"end":441.785,"text":"要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我們能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙"},{"start":443.146,"end":457.794,"text":"包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊"},{"start":458.334,"end":485.52,"text":"是 非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書"},{"start":486.98,"end":507.601,"text":"他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來 謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉 那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片"},{"start":508.422,"end":525.561,"text":"您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然"},{"start":526.562,"end":548.885,"text":"可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源"},{"start":550.831,"end":567.312,"text":"各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了"},{"start":568.234,"end":582.189,"text":"有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理"},{"start":582.79,"end":599.797,"text":"那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為"},{"start":600.897,"end":606.339,"text":"目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他"},{"start":625.376,"end":650.385,"text":"他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣"},{"start":650.999,"end":678.496,"text":"這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒"},{"start":679.841,"end":695.261,"text":"阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來"},{"start":695.962,"end":709.876,"text":"代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下"},{"start":710.601,"end":727.086,"text":"並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是"},{"start":738.516,"end":754.485,"text":"發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防"},{"start":756.085,"end":780.794,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時38分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請國安局副局長、數發部次長以及內政部警政署刑事局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我先請教一下數發部次長跟警政署，剛剛有委員提到上個禮拜臉書粉專被無預警下架的問題，我先釐清，第一，數發部說這不是數發部的關係，警政署說我們有黑名單跟白名單，提供了白名單給臉書，結果臉書內部溝通的問題，造成把白名單下架，是不是？我先請教一下，白名單、黑名單，照理講，臉書是上市公司、商業公司，還需要我們警政署幫它確認哪一個粉專是真的、哪一個粉專是假的？你們警政署怎麼這麼貼心！"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，因為假冒名人粉專的這些廣告非常多，為了便利Meta公司，我們希望他們能夠加強內部的審核，所以我們也提供白名單，如果有發現不是這些我們所提供的白名單，我們希望他們能夠主動審核下架，但目前比較多的是，我們發現可能是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們提供多少白名單給它？"],["林副局長信雄：我們有一批的白名單，詳細數字我這邊沒有，抱歉，沒帶在身上。"],["洪委員孟楷：就從過去到現在一直蒐集的名單，是不是？"],["林副局長信雄：我們會去做確認，這段時間都有持續再去做確認屬於真實的這些名單。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們警務同仁為了打詐，還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的，是不是那個當事人擁有的，然後數發部在粉專下架之後，我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專頁救回來，有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊？怎樣，我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟，是不是？臉書是一個上市公司，是國際公司，大家都用，沒有錯，我尊重，但重點在於當它已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介，結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫它確認這個粉絲專頁是不是真的，然後真的、正牌的粉絲專頁被下架之後，找臉書要找誰？它在臺灣沒有設客服，我們數發部變成還要當它的客服，在接了這些陳情之後再跟臉書通知。我請教，到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎？有承認錯誤嗎？也沒有欸！次長，你說數發部同仁收到陳情，連夜加班跟臉書協調處理。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臉書的客服呢？如果說它是一個商業行為、商業模式，我們數發部是主管機關，照理講，我們應該要求臉書去解決他們衍生出來的問題，結果不是啊！我們變成是客服專線24小時不打烊，同仁加班接收陳情之後，然後告訴臉書：你們出包了，趕快恢復。臉書現在咧？媒體報導的是，據了解臉書向數發部說明內部調查結果，並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤，會精進流程。它就跟數發部講一下，然後也沒有對外說明，好像這件事情跟它都沒關係、「無要無緊」，結果我們的警政署及數發部這兩大部會變成要扛責任，會不會覺得委屈啊？"],["林次長宜敬：會。"],["洪委員孟楷：會？怎麼辦啊？"],["林次長宜敬：委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受，因為像現在的國際媒體巨獸對各國政府來講，都是很頭痛的問題。事實上，美國也舉辦很多聽證會，但是因為這些企業實在是太大了，以臉書來講的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：大就可以是化外之地嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：不能這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：大就可以不受控制嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：事實上，臉書之前的問題是在於說，他們在臺灣的法遵部門只有兩個人，但是它的業務部門很大，他們兩人是互相不隸屬的，他們向上報告的話，他們的法遵部門是報告給新加坡的亞太中心，然後他們的銷售部門是report給香港的中心，兩邊再統統report到美國的總部去。所以以前我們跟它的法遵部門要求這些事情、要求那些事情的時候，我們一直跟它要求，可是他們就是說沒辦法。坦白講，我們也覺得那兩位臉書的同仁真的很可憐，一直被罵，所以後來我們的方法就是直接去找新加坡的亞太區總部，去跟他們開會、討論。事實上，美國加州總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情，每當美國的不管是行政部門或者是立法部門，就是他們國會的那些友人來參訪的時候，我們也一再跟他們講這個事情，我們希望透過美國的輿論給它施加壓力。事實上也必須講句公道話，就是臉書事實上是有在持續改進，只是說這次……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要幫他講話？次長，我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明，就是因為我覺得公務同仁很辛苦啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一件事情，我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的，我現在姑且相信數發部沒有提供資料，而是內政部警政署提供資料，你們提供的是正確資料，是臉書內部搞錯，我都先相信，因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話。如果真的是這樣的話，那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題，但到目前為止三天、四天了，臉書沒有一個正式的回應，大家捕風捉影，然後要求你們去做說明，什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟？美國、其他國家，即便是這樣子，我相信都會有相關的法令，對於臉書，你過去講這些東西我也都了解，但是不能說有一家公司來臺灣賺很多錢，要求投廣告，可是它沒有負起相關的責任，那我們難道沒有任何因應作為嗎？數位發展部身為主管機關，其實數位發展部當初成立的宗旨和目的，就是當數位世界有任何亂象時，要試著去控制、試著去管理，這是你們的宗旨啊！次長，所以這件事情要怎麼因應？要怎麼改進？"],["林次長宜敬：非常感謝委員，事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年7月通過了打詐專法，在打詐專法第三十一條和第三十二條……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們能不能要求臉書？之前我質詢部長，部長說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡，甚至我說你們app裡面的通報案件上個月有10萬5,000件，其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙，包括用Meta的Messenger、IG和臉書，都有！我想如果九成的詐騙管道都是從Meta來的話，難道不能先要求他們做源頭管理嗎？這樣才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，非常感謝委員，現在有了打詐……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！如果他來喝咖啡喝不行，那就請他喝「敬酒」啊！「敬酒」喝不行，就請他喝「罰酒」啊！"],["林次長宜敬：我完全同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：賺錢我一樣開罰啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是！現在有了打詐專法，預計在11月底就要正式施行了，接下來有任何這種狀況，我們就可以直接開罰，這一點要非常感謝立法院通過這個打詐專法。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且我覺得這件事情在於臉書不能躲在幕後，還讓我們公務同仁加班。"],["林次長宜敬：是！"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝次長和分局長。","國安局，抱歉，一件事情，因為賴士葆委員和剛剛幾個委員都問到，我只是請教，高嘉瑜前委員深偽的影片您有看到嘛！"],["張副局長元斌：有，有看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為上個禮拜……我想說這其實滿明目張膽的，因為第一，他也算是公眾人物、有名；第二，他用的是上政論節目的畫面，政論節目在YouTube上每天都會有，所以他到底是講真的、講假的，一目瞭然，可是居然會有人刻意去變造、用AI去做深偽的影片，那我想請教，這已經從上個禮拜……高嘉瑜前委員也報案了，目前為止有進度嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：目前應該是由警察單位受理、在做偵辦。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪個人可以說明一下？現在有沒有進度？有沒有查到凶手、出處、來源？"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，高嘉瑜委員被偽造的影像是出自中國大陸的抖音，它是一個「三只狼工作室」所發布的，據我們瞭解，發布人發布過後，現在也被抖音禁權了。有關抖音的部分，因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者，我們沒辦法去要求他們進行下架，所以，在國內的部分大概只能對TikTok Link的部分以網域封鎮來做處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想確認兩件事情，因為本席也很關心，我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒，尤其是用這種深偽技術去擾亂社會秩序，如果不是他講的話，我覺得任何人都不應該。請教兩個部分，就你們的掌握、瞭解，這是集團犯罪，還是個人行為？"],["林副局長信雄：目前能看到的、他所發布的是個人……"],["洪委員孟楷：個人？看起來雖然他的嘴型跟聲音像，但我覺得還是有點粗糙，仔細來看可能還是會有點對不上。所以這是個人行為，並不是集團？"],["林副局長信雄：從他發布的部分，目前只能推斷它是個人來發布。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一批裡面，除了高嘉瑜被仿冒，還有沒有其他？"],["林副局長信雄：還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有。跟委員報告，他在發布的影片上也註明是生成製造的。"],["洪委員孟楷：裡面有註明嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：它底下有寫是生成製造。"],["洪委員孟楷：他可能是用TikTok或抖音，可是因為它也可以被下載，所以下載完之後，如果再去做轉傳的話，你就沒有辦法掌握，是不是這樣？"],["林副局長信雄：這要看原本的影像有沒有被變製過，如果有再去做其他處理的話，這我們不敢保證。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。張副局長，最後我只講，對於這樣一個深偽技術，其實大家都要去防範，我覺得這還算是低階，雖然廣傳，可是大家可以分辨，也有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨的，譬如說，我只是簡單舉例，因為我的時間也到了，但我必須再次提醒。阿湯哥拍的「不可能的任務」最新一集有沒有看過？"],["張副局長元斌：還沒看。"],["洪委員孟楷：片名是「致命清算」，你還沒看，其實它去年就上映了。「致命清算」講的其實就是深偽技術，而我們知道，好萊塢會把它拍出來，通常代表這個技術可能已經過時5年了，也就是出現在市面上可能已經5年了，才會被拍成電影。換言之，電影沒有拍的可能更先進，我建議國安單位人員一定要去看一下「致命清算」，並不是為了娛樂，更重要的是你們要瞭解，其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務，突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者之間的訊息砍斷，然後下達錯誤的資訊，讓阿湯哥跑錯地方。我覺得如果這個技術真的被運用，駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話，那很危險，變成不管發生什麼意外狀況或緊急狀況的時候，我們的指揮中心跟前線部隊之間的訊息是不是有可能被入侵、被控制、被變造？"],["張副局長元斌：是，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：對於這樣的技術，我覺得可能就要因應跟防制。"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員提醒，生成式AI出來以後是技術上一個很大的變革，它能夠產製出很多我們以前想像不到的，包括惡意程式碼都可以自動生成。所以對於委員講的這個部分，我們會持續關注這種AI演進、驅動的威脅樣態，適時地掌蒐以後，會提供給相關單位應處。"],["洪委員孟楷：這真的應該要適時掌蒐，好不好？"],["張副局長元斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。請葛如鈞委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}