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00:00:14,875\n五立法委員五立法在謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:24,941\n國土計劃法下開放的\n\n3\n00:00:48,191 --> 00:00:48,411\n發言委員：發言委員\n\n4\n00:01:11,343 --> 00:01:39,198\n所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用\n\n5\n00:01:41,170 --> 00:02:01,140\n我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導\n\n6\n00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:24,028\n現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性\n\n7\n00:02:24,528 --> 00:02:32,064\n那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?\n\n8\n00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:57,701\n這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來\n\n9\n00:03:01,482 --> 00:03:17,230\n所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫\n\n10\n00:03:20,351 --> 00:03:45,307\n因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算\n\n11\n00:03:46,548 --> 00:03:46,708\n發言委員：\n\n12\n00:04:08,969 --> 00:04:36,853\n我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔\n\n13\n00:04:37,273 --> 00:04:37,313\n發言委員：\n\n14\n00:04:53,918 --> 00:05:18,637\n主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖\n\n15\n00:05:20,418 --> 00:05:20,498\n發言委員：\n\n16\n00:05:42,415 --> 00:06:10,269\n那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門成古一頭木那個山地村的舊主居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延長說明可以嗎部長\n\n17\n00:06:12,490 --> 00:06:13,992\n時間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t14875\t五立法委員五立法在謝謝主席 有請部長請農業部陳部長\n24660\t24941\t國土計劃法下開放的\n48191\t48411\t發言委員：發言委員\n71343\t99198\t所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用\n101170\t121140\t我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導\n122160\t144028\t現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性\n144528\t152064\t那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?\n153356\t177701\t這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好 謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來\n181482\t197230\t所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫\n200351\t225307\t因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算\n226548\t226708\t發言委員：\n248969\t276853\t我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔\n277273\t277313\t發言委員：\n293918\t318637\t主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖\n320418\t320498\t發言委員：\n342415\t370269\t那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門成古一頭木那個山地村的舊主居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延長說明可以嗎部長\n372490\t373992\t時間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論。\n","txt":"五立法委員五立法在謝謝主席 有請部長請農業部陳部長\n國土計劃法下開放的\n發言委員：發言委員\n所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用\n我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導\n現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性\n那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?\n這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好 謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來\n所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫\n因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算\n發言委員：\n我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔\n發言委員：\n主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖\n發言委員：\n那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門成古一頭木那個山地村的舊主居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延長說明可以嗎部長\n時間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:14.875\n五立法委員五立法在謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n\n00:24.660 --> 00:24.941\n國土計劃法下開放的\n\n00:48.191 --> 00:48.411\n發言委員：發言委員\n\n01:11.343 --> 01:39.198\n所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用\n\n01:41.170 --> 02:01.140\n我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導\n\n02:02.160 --> 02:24.028\n現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性\n\n02:24.528 --> 02:32.064\n那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?\n\n02:33.356 --> 02:57.701\n這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來\n\n03:01.482 --> 03:17.230\n所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫\n\n03:20.351 --> 03:45.307\n因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算\n\n03:46.548 --> 03:46.708\n發言委員：\n\n04:08.969 --> 04:36.853\n我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔\n\n04:37.273 --> 04:37.313\n發言委員：\n\n04:53.918 --> 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有請部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":24.66,"end":24.941,"text":"國土計劃法下開放的"},{"start":48.191,"end":48.411,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":71.343,"end":99.198,"text":"所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用"},{"start":101.17,"end":121.14,"text":"我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導"},{"start":122.16,"end":144.028,"text":"現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性"},{"start":144.528,"end":152.064,"text":"那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?"},{"start":153.356,"end":177.701,"text":"這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好 謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來"},{"start":181.482,"end":197.23,"text":"所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫"},{"start":200.351,"end":225.307,"text":"因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算"},{"start":226.548,"end":226.708,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":248.969,"end":276.853,"text":"我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔"},{"start":277.273,"end":277.313,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":293.918,"end":318.637,"text":"主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖"},{"start":320.418,"end":320.498,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":342.415,"end":370.269,"text":"那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門成古一頭木那個山地村的舊主居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延長說明可以嗎部長"},{"start":372.49,"end":373.992,"text":"時間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，您辛苦了！我在10月9號的時候有問到關於高山農業未來的發展，我們需要有一些水保鬆綁，只要用這種傳統農業的方式，謝謝部長當時有表態支持，未來在國土計畫法下開放的原住民族土地管制規則裡面，願意共同來支持，所以我今天想要請教一下，在水保法施行細則第二十六條有一行話是這麼說的：本法第二十二條所稱山坡地超限利用……因為我們現在的農業動不動就會動到所謂的超限利用。下面有說：但不包括依區域計畫法編定為農牧用地，或依都市計畫法、國家公園法及其他依法得為農、漁、牧之墾植、經營或使用。所以我要特別請教一下所謂的「及其他依法得為」，未來如果國土計畫法上路，原住民土管規則也通過，是不是可以來適用？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員做這樣的說明，就是在新的國土計畫裡面，包括國土保育區、農業發展區，還有城鄉發展區，我先講在農業發展區有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農3的部分，針對這個部分，後續農業部會更積極去輔導。現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分，如果它本來就是從事農業，我們會確保它可以繼續從事農業，但是它如果要新增的時候，可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法，所以在農3的部分，我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓它更具合法性。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果在原住民族土管規則裡面，針對國保的部分有做這樣的一些例外規定呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的，但是我會把這個議題……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是您如果參與，您會表達支持？"],["陳部長駿季：我會表達這樣的方式。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。","另外就是我在10月17號的時候也有問到，其實在原基法下，有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例，有點慚愧，都已經滿二十年了，到現在都還定不出來。所以我就特別要提到，針對這個部分，上次部長您也表態會支持，你說：我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式，而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置，在各個不同地區也有實體的種原庫。在這個草案裡面的第四條有提到：傳統生物知識的認定，由本會會商中央農業主管機關為之。針對認定的部分，可能原民會沒有這個能力，必須要由農業部參與，我也知道其實之前叫做保種中心，在去年8月農業部升格之後，它叫做生物多樣性研究所，我也看了預算，今年比去年增加1,200萬，總共編列了2.7億，當中有野生動物的多樣性跟野生植物的多樣性，這個跟原住民要談的傳統生物多樣性其實是一樣的，所以我在想未來不曉得農業部是不是可以來協助原民會？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才提到生物多樣性研究所的研究，其實它跟原民部落本身的植物研究沒有那麼緊密，反而是我們的試驗單位、我們的改良場，包括以花蓮場為中心的部分，我們有一個原住民的找回原力跟原力再現的計畫……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們的原力計畫我知道。"],["陳部長駿季：這個計畫裡面，我所知道的大概是一年8,000萬到1億，有這樣的經費，我覺得這樣的經費可以把相關傳統生物多樣性的知識認定當作一個工作項目去處理就可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，原民會那邊，我也會積極地催促他們快一點，希望農業部給予支持，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主席，不好意思，我還有一個問題，就是關於露營場的設置有很多、很多的紛擾，就是因為中央跟地方政府不同調、部會跟部會之間不同調。我就舉一個簡單的例子，相關法令規定「露營相關設施外場地應符合現況合法使用」，這個「外」就很麻煩了，我這邊有一個圖，因為露營場的申請不是用地號，是用指認的範圍，針對這個部分明天應該就有一個會議，因為我在總質詢有問，所以明天會開一個會議，我可能也會參與，我希望這個部分能夠儘早處理。","最後，我要特別謝謝林保署，因為我處理過的像三地門陳古意頭目山地村的舊祖居地增劃編返還，林保署很幫忙；在卓溪那邊有個大分山屋，即便上去要8到10天，林務局也很幫忙，也都有成功的案例。但是因為我們手上案子很多，所以我還是需要林保署來跟我們做一個研商說明，部長，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們找時間請同仁到您辦公室去討論，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，部長回座。","下一位質詢請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}}