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\"text\": \"那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 193.638, \"end\": 193.858, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 193.858, \"end\": 194.059, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 194.059, \"end\": 194.239, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 194.239, \"end\": 194.359, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 194.359, \"end\": 194.879, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 194.879, \"end\": 194.98, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 194.98, \"end\": 195.18, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 195.18, \"end\": 195.36, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 195.36, \"end\": 195.68, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 195.68, \"end\": 195.801, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 195.801, \"end\": 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460.784, \"end\": 461.384, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 461.384, \"end\": 461.524, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 461.524, \"end\": 461.724, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 461.724, \"end\": 462.664, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 462.664, \"end\": 462.764, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 462.764, \"end\": 462.884, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 462.884, \"end\": 463.444, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 463.444, \"end\": 463.584, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 463.584, \"end\": 463.764, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 463.764, \"end\": 464.204, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 464.204, \"end\": 464.344, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 464.344, \"end\": 464.404, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 464.404, \"end\": 464.704, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 464.704, \"end\": 464.804, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 464.804, \"end\": 465.025, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 465.025, \"end\": 465.165, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 465.165, \"end\": 465.365, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 465.365, \"end\": 465.565, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 465.565, \"end\": 465.785, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 465.785, \"end\": 466.485, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 466.485, \"end\": 466.685, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 466.685, \"end\": 466.705, \"score\": 0.95}]}, {\"start\": 467.645, \"end\": 495.604, \"text\": \"讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好 部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", 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\"的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 909.341, \"end\": 910.102, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 910.102, \"end\": 910.462, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 910.462, \"end\": 910.903, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 910.903, \"end\": 911.103, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 911.103, \"end\": 911.403, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 911.403, \"end\": 911.543, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 911.543, \"end\": 911.903, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"畢\"}, {\"word\": \"竟\", \"start\": 911.903, \"end\": 912.544, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 912.544, \"end\": 913.004, 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\"start\": 939.733, \"end\": 939.893, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 939.893, \"end\": 939.993, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 939.993, \"end\": 940.073, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 940.073, \"end\": 940.213, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 940.213, \"end\": 940.233, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,295 --> 00:00:36,633\n好謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的專案部長麻煩請卓院長、財政部部長備詢法務委員好院好齁那個這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然最當然現在能夠進行到這個\n\n2\n00:00:39,087 --> 00:01:03,180\n台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長這個剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆追加減的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘\n\n3\n00:01:04,215 --> 00:01:11,466\n那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅積剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅積剩餘是來自於什麼地方\n\n4\n00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:37,808\n跟委員報告我們的稅季剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅\n\n5\n00:01:39,028 --> 00:02:02,818\n特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益\n\n6\n00:02:02,878 --> 00:02:27,823\n所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以譬如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是\n\n7\n00:02:28,646 --> 00:02:48,476\n好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格\n\n8\n00:02:49,585 --> 00:03:12,998\n波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部郭部長說過我們未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全\n\n9\n00:03:13,638 --> 00:03:29,496\n那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的\n\n10\n00:03:29,977 --> 00:03:53,122\n因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本跟車子工業的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎\n\n11\n00:03:54,093 --> 00:04:18,680\n我們這次的調整對於住宅小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的環漲的成本因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變\n\n12\n00:04:20,202 --> 00:04:42,656\n院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘這個比較好的盈餘那多繳了一些稅\n\n13\n00:04:43,376 --> 00:05:11,764\n用這個多角的稅稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題\n\n14\n00:05:13,064 --> 00:05:33,636\n如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善那雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的這個原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本\n\n15\n00:05:35,237 --> 00:05:59,081\n所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持\n\n16\n00:05:59,321 --> 00:06:12,310\n因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資\n\n17\n00:06:14,256 --> 00:06:34,651\n會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情\n\n18\n00:06:35,171 --> 00:07:04,471\n所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降\n\n19\n00:07:05,231 --> 00:07:19,498\n那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好\n\n20\n00:07:21,939 --> 00:07:46,705\n所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持\n\n21\n00:07:47,645 --> 00:08:15,604\n讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關\n\n22\n00:08:17,332 --> 00:08:40,473\n你們知不知道台電旗下運輸的船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍我們應該是你現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點\n\n23\n00:08:41,397 --> 00:08:44,921\n那我們大部分都是用外期的比較多不然我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁\n\n24\n00:08:48,294 --> 00:09:17,646\n其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長\n\n25\n00:09:19,929 --> 00:09:49,290\n我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣\n\n26\n00:09:50,758 --> 00:09:52,359\n韓國瑜主席\n\n27\n00:10:12,810 --> 00:10:38,942\n不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通\n\n28\n00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:59,112\n中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長\n\n29\n00:11:01,345 --> 00:11:29,082\n那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百我們的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定部長但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛\n\n30\n00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:58,672\n這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因\n\n31\n00:11:59,292 --> 00:12:14,383\n是我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少\n\n32\n00:12:15,923 --> 00:12:42,691\n我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了\n\n33\n00:12:43,715 --> 00:13:05,857\n但是很明顯的阿他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員阿台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員阿是這個我們來要求\n\n34\n00:13:06,664 --> 00:13:31,708\n好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是\n\n35\n00:13:32,872 --> 00:13:50,318\n確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束\n\n36\n00:13:51,658 --> 00:14:13,990\n如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全院長我自己是覺得因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員\n\n37\n00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:43,660\n我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通\n\n38\n00:14:45,063 --> 00:15:08,821\n有一個逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的期程是我們回去以後立刻簽的把這個期程給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這一下不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患\n\n39\n00:15:09,341 --> 00:15:35,203\n的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好\n\n40\n00:15:37,551 --> 00:15:40,233\n好謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來請登記第4位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9295\t36633\t好 謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的專案部長麻煩請卓院長、財政部部長備詢法務委員好院好齁 那個這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然最當然現在能夠進行到這個\n39087\t63180\t台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長這個剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆追加減的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘\n64215\t71466\t那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅積剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅積剩餘是來自於什麼地方\n73020\t97808\t跟委員報告我們的稅季剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅\n99028\t122818\t特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益\n122878\t147823\t所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以譬如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是\n148646\t168476\t好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格\n169585\t192998\t波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部郭部長說過我們未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全\n193638\t209496\t那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的\n209977\t233122\t因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本跟車子工業的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎\n234093\t258680\t我們這次的調整對於住宅小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的環漲的成本因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變\n260202\t282656\t院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘這個比較好的盈餘那多繳了一些稅\n283376\t311764\t用這個多角的稅 稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題\n313064\t333636\t如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善那雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的這個原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本\n335237\t359081\t所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持\n359321\t372310\t因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資\n374256\t394651\t會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情\n395171\t424471\t所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降\n425231\t439498\t那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好\n441939\t466705\t所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持\n467645\t495604\t讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好 部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關\n497332\t520473\t你們知不知道台電旗下運輸的船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍我們應該是你現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點\n521397\t524921\t那我們大部分都是用外期的比較多不然我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁\n528294\t557646\t其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長\n559929\t589290\t我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣\n590758\t592359\t韓國瑜主席\n612810\t638942\t不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通\n640919\t659112\t中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長\n661345\t689082\t那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百我們的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定部長但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛\n690690\t718672\t這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對 因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因\n719292\t734383\t是我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少\n735923\t762691\t我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了\n763715\t785857\t但是很明顯的阿他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員阿台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員阿是 這個我們來要求\n786664\t811708\t好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是\n812872\t830318\t確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束\n831658\t853990\t如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全院長我自己是覺得因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員\n855560\t883660\t我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通\n885063\t908821\t有一個逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的期程是我們回去以後立刻簽的把這個期程給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這一下不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患\n909341\t935203\t的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好\n937551\t940233\t好 謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢 謝謝接下來請登記第4位\n","txt":"好 謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的專案部長麻煩請卓院長、財政部部長備詢法務委員好院好齁 那個這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然最當然現在能夠進行到這個\n台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長這個剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆追加減的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘\n那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅積剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅積剩餘是來自於什麼地方\n跟委員報告我們的稅季剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅\n特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益\n所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以譬如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是\n好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格\n波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部郭部長說過我們未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全\n那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的\n因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本跟車子工業的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎\n我們這次的調整對於住宅小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的環漲的成本因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變\n院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘這個比較好的盈餘那多繳了一些稅\n用這個多角的稅 稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題\n如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善那雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的這個原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本\n所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持\n因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資\n會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情\n所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降\n那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好\n所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持\n讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好 部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關\n你們知不知道台電旗下運輸的船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍我們應該是你現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點\n那我們大部分都是用外期的比較多不然我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁\n其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長\n我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣\n韓國瑜主席\n不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通\n中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長\n那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百我們的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定部長但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛\n這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對 因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因\n是我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少\n我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了\n但是很明顯的阿他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員阿台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員阿是 這個我們來要求\n好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是\n確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束\n如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全院長我自己是覺得因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員\n我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通\n有一個逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的期程是我們回去以後立刻簽的把這個期程給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這一下不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患\n的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好\n好 謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢 謝謝接下來請登記第4位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.295 --> 00:36.633\n好謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的專案部長麻煩請卓院長、財政部部長備詢法務委員好院好齁那個這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然最當然現在能夠進行到這個\n\n00:39.087 --> 01:03.180\n台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長這個剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆追加減的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘\n\n01:04.215 --> 01:11.466\n那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅積剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅積剩餘是來自於什麼地方\n\n01:13.020 --> 01:37.808\n跟委員報告我們的稅季剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅\n\n01:39.028 --> 02:02.818\n特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益\n\n02:02.878 --> 02:27.823\n所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以譬如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是\n\n02:28.646 --> 02:48.476\n好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格\n\n02:49.585 --> 03:12.998\n波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部郭部長說過我們未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全\n\n03:13.638 --> 03:29.496\n那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的\n\n03:29.977 --> 03:53.122\n因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本跟車子工業的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎\n\n03:54.093 --> 04:18.680\n我們這次的調整對於住宅小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的環漲的成本因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變\n\n04:20.202 --> 04:42.656\n院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘這個比較好的盈餘那多繳了一些稅\n\n04:43.376 --> 05:11.764\n用這個多角的稅稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題\n\n05:13.064 --> 05:33.636\n如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善那雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的這個原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本\n\n05:35.237 --> 05:59.081\n所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持\n\n05:59.321 --> 06:12.310\n因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資\n\n06:14.256 --> 06:34.651\n會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情\n\n06:35.171 --> 07:04.471\n所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降\n\n07:05.231 --> 07:19.498\n那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好\n\n07:21.939 --> 07:46.705\n所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持\n\n07:47.645 --> 08:15.604\n讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關\n\n08:17.332 --> 08:40.473\n你們知不知道台電旗下運輸的船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍我們應該是你現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點\n\n08:41.397 --> 08:44.921\n那我們大部分都是用外期的比較多不然我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁\n\n08:48.294 --> 09:17.646\n其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長\n\n09:19.929 --> 09:49.290\n我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣\n\n09:50.758 --> 09:52.359\n韓國瑜主席\n\n10:12.810 --> 10:38.942\n不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通\n\n10:40.919 --> 10:59.112\n中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長\n\n11:01.345 --> 11:29.082\n那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百我們的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定部長但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛\n\n11:30.690 --> 11:58.672\n這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因\n\n11:59.292 --> 12:14.383\n是我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少\n\n12:15.923 --> 12:42.691\n我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了\n\n12:43.715 --> 13:05.857\n但是很明顯的阿他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員阿台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員阿是這個我們來要求\n\n13:06.664 --> 13:31.708\n好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是\n\n13:32.872 --> 13:50.318\n確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束\n\n13:51.658 --> 14:13.990\n如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全院長我自己是覺得因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員\n\n14:15.560 --> 14:43.660\n我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通\n\n14:45.063 --> 15:08.821\n有一個逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的期程是我們回去以後立刻簽的把這個期程給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這一下不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患\n\n15:09.341 --> 15:35.203\n的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好\n\n15:37.551 --> 15:40.233\n好謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來請登記第4位\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.295,"end":36.633,"text":"好 謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的專案部長麻煩請卓院長、財政部部長備詢法務委員好院好齁 那個這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然最當然現在能夠進行到這個"},{"start":39.087,"end":63.18,"text":"台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長這個剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆追加減的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘"},{"start":64.215,"end":71.466,"text":"那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅積剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅積剩餘是來自於什麼地方"},{"start":73.02,"end":97.808,"text":"跟委員報告我們的稅季剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅"},{"start":99.028,"end":122.818,"text":"特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益"},{"start":122.878,"end":147.823,"text":"所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以譬如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是"},{"start":148.646,"end":168.476,"text":"好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格"},{"start":169.585,"end":192.998,"text":"波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部郭部長說過我們未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全"},{"start":193.638,"end":209.496,"text":"那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的"},{"start":209.977,"end":233.122,"text":"因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本跟車子工業的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎"},{"start":234.093,"end":258.68,"text":"我們這次的調整對於住宅小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的環漲的成本因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變"},{"start":260.202,"end":282.656,"text":"院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘這個比較好的盈餘那多繳了一些稅"},{"start":283.376,"end":311.764,"text":"用這個多角的稅 稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題"},{"start":313.064,"end":333.636,"text":"如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善那雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的這個原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本"},{"start":335.237,"end":359.081,"text":"所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持"},{"start":359.321,"end":372.31,"text":"因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資"},{"start":374.256,"end":394.651,"text":"會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情"},{"start":395.171,"end":424.471,"text":"所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降"},{"start":425.231,"end":439.498,"text":"那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好"},{"start":441.939,"end":466.705,"text":"所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持"},{"start":467.645,"end":495.604,"text":"讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好 部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關"},{"start":497.332,"end":520.473,"text":"你們知不知道台電旗下運輸的船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍我們應該是你現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點"},{"start":521.397,"end":524.921,"text":"那我們大部分都是用外期的比較多不然我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁"},{"start":528.294,"end":557.646,"text":"其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長"},{"start":559.929,"end":589.29,"text":"我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣"},{"start":590.758,"end":592.359,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":612.81,"end":638.942,"text":"不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通"},{"start":640.919,"end":659.112,"text":"中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長"},{"start":661.345,"end":689.082,"text":"那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百我們的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定部長但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛"},{"start":690.69,"end":718.672,"text":"這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對 因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因"},{"start":719.292,"end":734.383,"text":"是我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少"},{"start":735.923,"end":762.691,"text":"我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了"},{"start":763.715,"end":785.857,"text":"但是很明顯的阿他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員阿台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員阿是 這個我們來要求"},{"start":786.664,"end":811.708,"text":"好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是"},{"start":812.872,"end":830.318,"text":"確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束"},{"start":831.658,"end":853.99,"text":"如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全院長我自己是覺得因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員"},{"start":855.56,"end":883.66,"text":"我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通"},{"start":885.063,"end":908.821,"text":"有一個逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的期程是我們回去以後立刻簽的把這個期程給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這一下不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患"},{"start":909.341,"end":935.203,"text":"的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好"},{"start":937.551,"end":940.233,"text":"好 謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢 謝謝接下來請登記第4位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":314,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時51分）好，謝謝韓院長。我想請卓院長跟財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、財政部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：院長好。這個會期我們有非常重要的四大預算，當然現在進行的台電追加減預算是最後一個，大家都很辛苦。因為時間不多，我就直接先針對今天的問題來討論。首先請教莊部長，剛剛院長和財政部的報告中都有提到，這筆追加減預算其實用到的是歲計賸餘，請問我們這幾年歲計賸餘的狀況究竟如何？重點是這個歲計賸餘是來自於什麼地方？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們的歲計賸餘主要在於我們的歲入，歲入好的時候，我們的作法就是在……"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼歲入會好？"],["莊部長翠雲：歲入好，第一個，就是我們的稅收好、稅課收入好；稅課收入好，是因為經濟成長好；因為經濟成長好，所以我們的歲入就會增加，而經濟成長好，會表現在我們的營利事業所得稅……"],["洪委員申翰：目前就你的資料，特別是哪幾個產業好？"],["莊部長翠雲：有幾個特別產業，就我們來說，因為我們是出口導向的國家，而這幾年的出口主要在於AI，就是資通訊跟電子產品，這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的，而且我們不管是在產能或製程都具有優勢，所以這個部分帶給我們國家很好的收益……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我確認一下，等於是說我們這幾年歲計賸餘為什麼有這麼大的量，主要是來自於我們的出口產業，尤其是科技產業？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員申翰：他們賺的錢多，所以繳的稅多，因而產生歲計賸餘，我這樣的理解沒有錯，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，沒有錯。再加上我們的股市動能也好，譬如今（113）年我們的證交稅收入也是不錯的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，接下來我想請問院長。院長，這一筆要給台電1,000億元的追加預算，為什麼要進行這樣的補貼？主要的具體原因，可不可以請院長再跟我們說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員，剛剛在報告中有提到，因為燃料價格波動，造成巨大支出，同時我們雖然調整了電價，但對民生電價一樣是採取補貼政策，所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性目標。如果這一次以這樣的追加預算再進行補貼後，經濟部郭部長曾說過，未來期待台電的財務能夠更健全。其他一些相關的補貼政策，我們現在已經移到其他部會、各目的事業主管機關去，相形之下，台電就會比較像一個正常營運的公司，不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策，對一個公司來講，對他的財政負擔絕對是好的。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我們在談補貼的時候，通常來源可能來自於發電成本跟電價支出上的落差，我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面報告的時候提到，主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這次的調整對於住宅、小商店沒有動，我們還是維持凍漲的、緩漲的……"],["洪委員申翰：因為凍漲，所以它低於成本，所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個距離發電的成本大概一塊多，3.94到2.7左右，大概一塊多是需要用補貼政策的，所以這個部分需要台電用其他方式進行它的財務結構的改變。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我覺得這樣聽下來，我大概聽出一個邏輯，等於我們現在政府用我們在出口產業、科技業多賺的錢，不要講多賺的錢，因為我們的經貿政策做對了、因為我們的外交政策做對了，所以讓大家可以有比較好的盈餘，這個比較好的盈餘多繳了一些稅，用多繳的稅、歲計賸餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出，所以其實我們是政府扮演一個在利潤跟負擔的總體調度，讓賺錢的產業、賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電，降低它的負擔，其實我覺得這個邏輯應該要讓社會知道得更清楚，因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題，如果這一筆1,000億的追加預算沒有通過，可能會有什麼影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善，雖然我們這次調整當中採用了反映成本的原則，所以這些用電大戶都幾乎是在發電成本的，所以它已經不需要任何的補貼，在現在來看，但是民生用電仍然需要，如果沒有追加預算，台電必須用它自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼政策，對它未來財政健全的路會更遙遠，部長曾經提過，未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化，也健全，這個應該是一個必經的步驟，我請大院支持。"],["洪委員申翰：其實我可以講，我甚至更擔心的事情是，當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候，我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資，包括我們很多發電設備的投資，會不會因為台電的財務狀況不健全，甚至對未來這些投資就會趨於保守，原本可能兩年、三年可以投資完、處理完的問題，變成四年、五年、六年，這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題，甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策，這是我擔心的事情。所以，部長，我覺得我們需要讓大家知道，台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極作用，而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題、只是董事長要去擔心的問題，不是這個問題，它連帶地影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題，部長，我們要讓大家知道這件事情啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是的，報告委員，我們現在比較擔心的就是如果得不到這1,000億的補助，財務的狀況非常不好，財務狀況不好的話，在銀行的授信等級就會下降，第一個，我們可能付的利息錢、利息可能會增加，對於剛才您所指導的先期投資可能就會降。"],["洪委員申翰：可能電網、發電的設施、儲能等等等，都會連帶影響，因為財務不好。"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以我們希望能夠早一點改善它的財務狀況。至於經營的部分，就像剛才院長所指示的，經營的部分我們會來努力，就經營的部分，我們希望是能夠有好的表現。但是在財務的部分，財務不是我們經營的部分，所以我們希望得到大院的支持，能夠改善台電的財務狀況，一來我們可以降低利息的支出；第二個，我們可以得到世界融資公司授信程度的提升，我想這個是比較重要的部分。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，財政部莊部長可以先回去，我接下來想要請教的問題，郭部長請繼續留在台上。我想請問院長跟郭部長，因為也跟台電有關，你們知不知道台電旗下的運輸船隻，他們聘僱的船員有多少是臺灣籍、有多少是中國籍、有多少是外國籍？部長，知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：我們應該是……現在因為少子化，所以臺籍的確實是比較少一點，我們大部分都是用外籍的比較多。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我給你看這個數字，其實我把台電跟中油的相關數字都調出來了，就目前為止，台電跟中油下面大部分都還是臺灣籍船員，中油用了比較多外國籍，台電用了蠻少的外國籍，可是台電跟中油的中國籍船員都是零，就是沒有用中國籍的船員，你覺得為什麼台電跟中油這兩家國營事業都優先使用外國籍，沒有優先用中國籍船員，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：我們應該在這部分有一些管理。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實我為什麼今天問這個問題，我前兩個禮拜也問了國安局的蔡明彥局長，因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題，他們問我一個問題，請問如果臺海真的發生緊張的時候，如果船上是中國籍船員，這個中國籍船員在臺海緊張的時候，他是聽中國政府的，還是聽我們臺灣船公司的？部長，你覺得？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指正，您剛才所指導的這部分確實是這樣，我們也擔心把我們的frequency走漏出去了，這些實際操作的訊息萬一被走漏出去，我想對我們是不利的。"],["洪委員申翰：是，所以當時國安局蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是會有國安上面的隱患，到時候他到底聽誰的，這真的沒有人有把握，很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的。","可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了，部長，我要問台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國籍船員，那為什麼一樣是我們國營事業的中鋼運通，中鋼運通的數字是這樣子，部長，臺灣籍船員確實比較多，但它也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員，但是它的外國籍船員用的比較少，為什麼同樣都是國營事業，中鋼運通卻做了不一樣的選擇，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：中鋼是經濟部投資的公司，不是我們直接百分之百own的公司，所以我想它很多的形式是要透過它的董事會決定。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，但是經濟部當然是有影響它的影響力嘛！這個我們當然都知道嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：它當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接，可是經濟部當然是有影響它很充足的影響力嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這邊我們來跟中鋼討論，因為這裡面有他們工會的要求……"],["洪委員申翰：但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：工會是希望能夠多用臺灣籍的船員，我的意思是說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面，你看到它用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員，台電跟中國都可以不用，對不對？可是為什麼中鋼運通用？這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎？是不是因為這個原因？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論，然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善，但是因為用人的部分其實是比較複雜，現在供應比較少，我們要求他們要趕快立即改善。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我想說的事情是，現在關於中鋼運通的事情當然有所謂罷工，但我今天沒有要談罷工，沒有要談勞動方面的事情，我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情。就這個數字來說，其實大家可以看得到，就算我們可能去說因為臺灣籍船員……現在就算我們退一萬步來說臺灣籍的船員比較難找，就算我們這樣想好了，但是很明顯地，它也是優先用中國籍船員，而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員啊！台電跟中油也許他們也是遇到臺灣籍的船員不好找，假定是這個狀況，但它也是優先找外國籍的船員，找國安疑慮比較小的船員啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個我們來要求。"],["洪委員申翰：好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["洪委員申翰：所以部長跟院長，我想請教一下院長對這個事情的看法，我這邊沒有在談勞動的問題、勞動合約的問題，談國安的問題。院長，你的看法是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，我們當然希望臺海兩岸之間都是和平共處、和平共榮，大家用經濟的發展、穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力，但是確實在表格上看起來，我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員，而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少，我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示，平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束，如果有事情的時候，要有強力的管理跟管制的機制，這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運，也保障我們國家的安全。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我自己是覺得，像中鋼運通或這樣的公司其實就是國營事業公司，其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員，我其實想不到……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是現狀來做管理……"],["洪委員申翰：對，這是現狀。"],["卓院長榮泰：那麼未來我想部長應該統籌地去規劃一下……"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們來規劃一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：來做一些檢討，往更合理、安全而且有效率的方式去做。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這邊要說的是，我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉，不是這個意思，我是在想，我有一個提議，部長，可不可以兩個月的時間，不管是經濟部、國營會或是中鋼運通可以有一個逐步降低中國籍船員、減少中國籍船員的期程？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們回去以後立刻檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：把這個期程給訂出來，我可以給兩個月的時間，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：把它具體規劃出來，因為我知道這不是一下子就隨便可以換掉的事，我都清楚，可是至少有一個餘裕的時間，不要再讓有國安隱患的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上，畢竟這些國營事業的進出口都是運送很重要的物資，我們都知道這是非常、非常重要的基礎物資，我想不到其他理由，也許私人的企業、民營的企業會有成本的考慮，可是我想不到任何的理由，為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員，而不是優先用本土臺灣籍或是外國籍的船員，這部分麻煩部長，好不好？兩個月的時間，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第4位林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}}