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{\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 733.479, \"end\": 733.579, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 733.579, \"end\": 733.599, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"漲\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 733.599, \"end\": 733.639, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 733.639, \"end\": 733.659, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}]}, {\"start\": 738.582, \"end\": 766.4, \"text\": \"所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 738.582, \"end\": 738.702, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 738.702, \"end\": 738.802, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 738.802, \"end\": 738.902, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 738.902, \"end\": 739.663, \"score\": 0.957}, 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00:00:13,227\n好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選\n\n2\n00:00:25,954 --> 00:00:40,759\n黃國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰就是有這個問題\n\n3\n00:00:41,599 --> 00:00:59,981\n我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁劃法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場\n\n4\n00:01:00,842 --> 00:01:13,956\n如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責\n\n5\n00:01:16,225 --> 00:01:36,334\n全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決\n\n6\n00:01:38,095 --> 00:01:55,096\n不管《財務法》、《自由修法》版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道副院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善\n\n7\n00:01:55,765 --> 00:02:23,087\n因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了它的功能不是你我所願吧好院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到\n\n8\n00:02:23,807 --> 00:02:32,270\n希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人、權、事都要合一我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超增稅收\n\n9\n00:02:41,013 --> 00:03:04,339\n四千億五千多億將近四千億今年預估又要再四千億我想第一個當然財政積累問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢這個部分所以請院長或請部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超徵請部長說明\n\n10\n00:03:05,830 --> 00:03:17,366\n跟委員報告稅的徵收都必須依照法律依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數那當然這個部分\n\n11\n00:03:20,672 --> 00:03:36,807\n事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變\n\n12\n00:03:38,909 --> 00:03:56,379\n以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的質詢裡面我看了包含執政黨委員不滿意你們這個專家小組啊\n\n13\n00:04:01,755 --> 00:04:25,571\n我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個一個日\n\n14\n00:04:27,353 --> 00:04:45,250\n這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你的民事解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個\n\n15\n00:04:46,171 --> 00:05:00,802\n過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電\n\n16\n00:05:02,751 --> 00:05:23,190\n跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這個4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事情我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊\n\n17\n00:05:27,011 --> 00:05:42,881\n院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛\n\n18\n00:05:44,895 --> 00:06:00,432\n第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好謝謝部長的回應我想這個\n\n19\n00:06:01,593 --> 00:06:15,145\n如果用到這個剩餘裁員裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座\n\n20\n00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:35,738\n我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念\n\n21\n00:06:36,699 --> 00:07:00,971\n我常常講,台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算的1000當然我想這開源節流很重要\n\n22\n00:07:02,612 --> 00:07:25,473\n開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了\n\n23\n00:07:27,264 --> 00:07:53,351\n就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情\n\n24\n00:07:55,709 --> 00:08:08,729\n這個一百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生\n\n25\n00:08:09,463 --> 00:08:36,877\n沒有帳價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了希望能夠改善台電的這個財務狀況因為財務我們現在因為虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢那這個借錢的利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的這個籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這一千億的補算\n\n26\n00:08:37,864 --> 00:08:52,096\n那至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟您談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個\n\n27\n00:08:57,554 --> 00:09:26,445\n利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87%今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生\n\n28\n00:09:27,185 --> 00:09:43,837\n那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎\n\n29\n00:09:44,818 --> 00:10:12,288\n有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個\n\n30\n00:10:12,928 --> 00:10:33,396\n借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同部長謝謝我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有受信條件但是今天台電是獨佔嘛是國家的嘛\n\n31\n00:10:35,097 --> 00:10:57,296\n你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就是想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走\n\n32\n00:10:58,390 --> 00:11:21,815\n台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本\n\n33\n00:11:23,773 --> 00:11:47,250\n這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情\n\n34\n00:11:48,103 --> 00:11:54,527\n不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了\n\n35\n00:11:56,889 --> 00:12:13,659\n你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3\n\n36\n00:12:18,582 --> 00:12:46,400\n所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們\n\n37\n00:12:47,776 --> 00:12:56,726\n那你發生什麼沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎去年已經累計虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累計虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去\n\n38\n00:12:59,465 --> 00:13:21,482\n三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本\n\n39\n00:13:22,942 --> 00:13:42,150\n發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力至於說核電它當然表面上看起來是\n\n40\n00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:52,176\n是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來\n\n41\n00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:22,210\n就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以也會討論到所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上來講價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部有問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情\n\n42\n00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:39,959\n如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一層能源後續後端也有主要的問題啊如果這都算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你通常能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊\n\n43\n00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:54,424\n那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了\n\n44\n00:14:56,752 --> 00:15:12,381\n我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗兒我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53\n\n45\n00:15:15,843 --> 00:15:32,751\n購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的\n\n46\n00:15:46,752 --> 00:15:50,178\n好謝謝黃建豪委員指詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6275\t13227\t好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選\n25954\t40759\t黃國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰就是有這個問題\n41599\t59981\t我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁劃法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場\n60842\t73956\t如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責\n76225\t96334\t全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決\n98095\t115096\t不管《財務法》、《自由修法》版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道副院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善\n115765\t143087\t因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了它的功能不是你我所願吧好 院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到\n143807\t152270\t希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人、權、事都要合一我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超增稅收\n161013\t184339\t四千億五千多億將近四千億今年預估又要再四千億我想第一個當然財政積累問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢這個部分所以請院長或請部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超徵請部長說明\n185830\t197366\t跟委員報告稅的徵收都必須依照法律依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數那當然這個部分\n200672\t216807\t事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變\n218909\t236379\t以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的質詢裡面我看了包含執政黨委員不滿意你們這個專家小組啊\n241755\t265571\t我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個一個日\n267353\t285250\t這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你的民事解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個\n286171\t300802\t過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電\n302751\t323190\t跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這個4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事情我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊\n327011\t342881\t院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛\n344895\t360432\t第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好 謝謝部長的回應我想這個\n361593\t375145\t如果用到這個剩餘裁員裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座\n376360\t395738\t我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念\n396699\t420971\t我常常講,台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算的1000當然我想這開源節流很重要\n422612\t445473\t開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了\n447264\t473351\t就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情\n475709\t488729\t這個一百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生\n489463\t516877\t沒有帳價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了希望能夠改善台電的這個財務狀況因為財務我們現在因為虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢那這個借錢的利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的這個籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這一千億的補算\n517864\t532096\t那至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟您談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個\n537554\t566445\t利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87%今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生\n567185\t583837\t那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎\n584818\t612288\t有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個\n612928\t633396\t借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同部長謝謝我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有受信條件但是今天台電是獨佔嘛是國家的嘛\n635097\t657296\t你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就是想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走\n658390\t681815\t台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本\n683773\t707250\t這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情\n708103\t714527\t不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了\n716889\t733659\t你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3\n738582\t766400\t所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們\n767776\t776726\t那你發生什麼沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎去年已經累計虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累計虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去\n779465\t801482\t三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本\n802942\t822150\t發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力至於說核電它當然表面上看起來是\n823050\t832176\t是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來\n838780\t862210\t就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以也會討論到所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上來講價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部有問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情\n862930\t879959\t如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一層能源後續後端也有主要的問題啊如果這都算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你通常能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊\n880279\t894424\t那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了\n896752\t912381\t我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗兒我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53\n915843\t932751\t購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的\n946752\t950178\t好謝謝黃建豪委員指詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華\n","txt":"好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選\n黃國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰就是有這個問題\n我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁劃法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場\n如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責\n全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決\n不管《財務法》、《自由修法》版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道副院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善\n因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了它的功能不是你我所願吧好 院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到\n希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人、權、事都要合一我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超增稅收\n四千億五千多億將近四千億今年預估又要再四千億我想第一個當然財政積累問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢這個部分所以請院長或請部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超徵請部長說明\n跟委員報告稅的徵收都必須依照法律依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數那當然這個部分\n事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變\n以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的質詢裡面我看了包含執政黨委員不滿意你們這個專家小組啊\n我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個一個日\n這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你的民事解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個\n過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電\n跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這個4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事情我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊\n院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛\n第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好 謝謝部長的回應我想這個\n如果用到這個剩餘裁員裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座\n我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念\n我常常講,台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算的1000當然我想這開源節流很重要\n開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了\n就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情\n這個一百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生\n沒有帳價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了希望能夠改善台電的這個財務狀況因為財務我們現在因為虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢那這個借錢的利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的這個籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這一千億的補算\n那至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟您談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個\n利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87%今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生\n那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎\n有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個\n借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同部長謝謝我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有受信條件但是今天台電是獨佔嘛是國家的嘛\n你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就是想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走\n台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本\n這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情\n不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了\n你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3\n所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們\n那你發生什麼沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎去年已經累計虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累計虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去\n三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本\n發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力至於說核電它當然表面上看起來是\n是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來\n就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以也會討論到所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上來講價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部有問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情\n如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一層能源後續後端也有主要的問題啊如果這都算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你通常能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊\n那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了\n我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗兒我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53\n購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的\n好謝謝黃建豪委員指詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.275 --> 00:13.227\n好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選\n\n00:25.954 --> 00:40.759\n黃國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰就是有這個問題\n\n00:41.599 --> 00:59.981\n我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁劃法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場\n\n01:00.842 --> 01:13.956\n如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責\n\n01:16.225 --> 01:36.334\n全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決\n\n01:38.095 --> 01:55.096\n不管《財務法》、《自由修法》版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道副院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善\n\n01:55.765 --> 02:23.087\n因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了它的功能不是你我所願吧好院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到\n\n02:23.807 --> 02:32.270\n希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人、權、事都要合一我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超增稅收\n\n02:41.013 --> 03:04.339\n四千億五千多億將近四千億今年預估又要再四千億我想第一個當然財政積累問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢這個部分所以請院長或請部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超徵請部長說明\n\n03:05.830 --> 03:17.366\n跟委員報告稅的徵收都必須依照法律依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數那當然這個部分\n\n03:20.672 --> 03:36.807\n事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變\n\n03:38.909 --> 03:56.379\n以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的質詢裡面我看了包含執政黨委員不滿意你們這個專家小組啊\n\n04:01.755 --> 04:25.571\n我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個一個日\n\n04:27.353 --> 04:45.250\n這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你的民事解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個\n\n04:46.171 --> 05:00.802\n過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電\n\n05:02.751 --> 05:23.190\n跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這個4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事情我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊\n\n05:27.011 --> 05:42.881\n院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛\n\n05:44.895 --> 06:00.432\n第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好謝謝部長的回應我想這個\n\n06:01.593 --> 06:15.145\n如果用到這個剩餘裁員裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座\n\n06:16.360 --> 06:35.738\n我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念\n\n06:36.699 --> 07:00.971\n我常常講,台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算的1000當然我想這開源節流很重要\n\n07:02.612 --> 07:25.473\n開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了\n\n07:27.264 --> 07:53.351\n就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情\n\n07:55.709 --> 08:08.729\n這個一百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生\n\n08:09.463 --> 08:36.877\n沒有帳價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了希望能夠改善台電的這個財務狀況因為財務我們現在因為虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢那這個借錢的利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的這個籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這一千億的補算\n\n08:37.864 --> 08:52.096\n那至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟您談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個\n\n08:57.554 --> 09:26.445\n利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87%今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生\n\n09:27.185 --> 09:43.837\n那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎\n\n09:44.818 --> 10:12.288\n有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個\n\n10:12.928 --> 10:33.396\n借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同部長謝謝我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有受信條件但是今天台電是獨佔嘛是國家的嘛\n\n10:35.097 --> 10:57.296\n你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就是想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走\n\n10:58.390 --> 11:21.815\n台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本\n\n11:23.773 --> 11:47.250\n這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情\n\n11:48.103 --> 11:54.527\n不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了\n\n11:56.889 --> 12:13.659\n你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3\n\n12:18.582 --> 12:46.400\n所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們\n\n12:47.776 --> 12:56.726\n那你發生什麼沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎去年已經累計虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累計虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去\n\n12:59.465 --> 13:21.482\n三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本\n\n13:22.942 --> 13:42.150\n發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力至於說核電它當然表面上看起來是\n\n13:43.050 --> 13:52.176\n是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來\n\n13:58.780 --> 14:22.210\n就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以也會討論到所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上來講價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部有問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情\n\n14:22.930 --> 14:39.959\n如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一層能源後續後端也有主要的問題啊如果這都算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你通常能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊\n\n14:40.279 --> 14:54.424\n那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了\n\n14:56.752 --> 15:12.381\n我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗兒我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53\n\n15:15.843 --> 15:32.751\n購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的\n\n15:46.752 --> 15:50.178\n好謝謝黃建豪委員指詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.275,"end":13.227,"text":"好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選"},{"start":25.954,"end":40.759,"text":"黃國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰就是有這個問題"},{"start":41.599,"end":59.981,"text":"我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁劃法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場"},{"start":60.842,"end":73.956,"text":"如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責"},{"start":76.225,"end":96.334,"text":"全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決"},{"start":98.095,"end":115.096,"text":"不管《財務法》、《自由修法》版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道副院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善"},{"start":115.765,"end":143.087,"text":"因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了它的功能不是你我所願吧好 院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到"},{"start":143.807,"end":152.27,"text":"希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人、權、事都要合一我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超增稅收"},{"start":161.013,"end":184.339,"text":"四千億五千多億將近四千億今年預估又要再四千億我想第一個當然財政積累問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢這個部分所以請院長或請部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超徵請部長說明"},{"start":185.83,"end":197.366,"text":"跟委員報告稅的徵收都必須依照法律依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數那當然這個部分"},{"start":200.672,"end":216.807,"text":"事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變"},{"start":218.909,"end":236.379,"text":"以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的質詢裡面我看了包含執政黨委員不滿意你們這個專家小組啊"},{"start":241.755,"end":265.571,"text":"我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個一個日"},{"start":267.353,"end":285.25,"text":"這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你的民事解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":286.171,"end":300.802,"text":"過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電"},{"start":302.751,"end":323.19,"text":"跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這個4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事情我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊"},{"start":327.011,"end":342.881,"text":"院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛"},{"start":344.895,"end":360.432,"text":"第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好 謝謝部長的回應我想這個"},{"start":361.593,"end":375.145,"text":"如果用到這個剩餘裁員裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座"},{"start":376.36,"end":395.738,"text":"我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念"},{"start":396.699,"end":420.971,"text":"我常常講,台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算的1000當然我想這開源節流很重要"},{"start":422.612,"end":445.473,"text":"開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了"},{"start":447.264,"end":473.351,"text":"就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情"},{"start":475.709,"end":488.729,"text":"這個一百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生"},{"start":489.463,"end":516.877,"text":"沒有帳價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了希望能夠改善台電的這個財務狀況因為財務我們現在因為虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢那這個借錢的利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的這個籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這一千億的補算"},{"start":517.864,"end":532.096,"text":"那至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟您談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個"},{"start":537.554,"end":566.445,"text":"利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87%今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生"},{"start":567.185,"end":583.837,"text":"那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎"},{"start":584.818,"end":612.288,"text":"有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個"},{"start":612.928,"end":633.396,"text":"借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同部長謝謝我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有受信條件但是今天台電是獨佔嘛是國家的嘛"},{"start":635.097,"end":657.296,"text":"你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就是想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走"},{"start":658.39,"end":681.815,"text":"台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本"},{"start":683.773,"end":707.25,"text":"這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情"},{"start":708.103,"end":714.527,"text":"不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了"},{"start":716.889,"end":733.659,"text":"你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3"},{"start":738.582,"end":766.4,"text":"所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成4千億了4千多億今天院長早上講的數字4千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意1000億給你們"},{"start":767.776,"end":776.726,"text":"那你發生什麼沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎去年已經累計虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累計虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去"},{"start":779.465,"end":801.482,"text":"三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本"},{"start":802.942,"end":822.15,"text":"發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力至於說核電它當然表面上看起來是"},{"start":823.05,"end":832.176,"text":"是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來"},{"start":838.78,"end":862.21,"text":"就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以也會討論到所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上來講價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部有問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情"},{"start":862.93,"end":879.959,"text":"如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一層能源後續後端也有主要的問題啊如果這都算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你通常能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊"},{"start":880.279,"end":894.424,"text":"那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了"},{"start":896.752,"end":912.381,"text":"我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗兒我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53"},{"start":915.843,"end":932.751,"text":"購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的"},{"start":946.752,"end":950.178,"text":"好謝謝黃建豪委員指詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢謝謝接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時22分）謝謝院長。我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、財政部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好、部長好。首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的一個言論，剛剛院長說地方上的國立學校會不會回到縣、市立學校，我想臺中恰恰好就是有這個問題，我以前的高中叫國立高中，現在變成市立高中，所以它的財源很多部分都是要由市政府支應，但是地方政府的預算並沒有明顯的增加，所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部國教署的補助。如果要談到財劃法，我利用一點時間簡單表達一下我的立場，今天就是因為地方政府財源不足，才有很多時候需要向中央拜託、需要中央支應，所以在財劃法修法上，我個人也是希望能夠事權統一，能夠把它一致化，由誰負責，就是錢權要統一啦！地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政，理論上，它的經費就希望能夠增加，才能夠對應到相關的事權，要不然所有事情，包含不管是國小、國中，到高中，許多市立學校到最後因為經費不足，都必須跟教育部、跟國教署來請求，所以這個問題，我希望在院長任內也能夠確實解決。不管財劃法最後修法版本怎麼樣，我們希望地方的教育經費能夠有充足的經費，才能夠讓我們下一代有個比較好的教育環境，不知道院長認不認同這樣的說法？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去四年來，地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中，負債的狀況也明顯的改善，因為中央在很多政策上面，比方說，對中低收入戶的各項照顧，都是用一般型補助的2,500億來做支應，所以這相形就是對地方一種在政策上、財政上的支持，也才能讓地方比較有好的財政。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們可以再好好的討論，但是如果討論到最後是中央政府完全喪失它的功能，不是你、我所願吧！"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，我沒有讓中央政府喪失功能，我們還是提到，希望該誰付錢，它的經費就能夠多一點，簡單的立場是這樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，人、權、事都要合一！"],["黃委員健豪：好，這有共識啦！沒關係，我們進到今天的主題，我想先談一下超徵稅收的部分，從110年以來，我們每年超徵稅收四千億、五千多億，今年預估又要再四千億，我想第一個，當然是財政紀律的問題，到底為什麼每年會從人民的口袋中超徵這麼多錢？這個部分可不可以請院長或部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情？為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在叫做實徵數超過預算數，而不是超徵。請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，稅的徵收都必須有法律的依據，所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的。這幾年我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數，當然，這個估測事實上都在10%到20%之間的差距。在估測方面，我們當然要持續再精進，不過之前也說過，我們從籌編預算到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間，這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變以及各種狀況的變動，這當然是一個因素，我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式，包含我們成立專家小組，專家小組裡面，除了本機關之外，還包含央行、國發會及專家學者的意見，而且……"],["黃委員健豪：對，我知道，專家小組成立之後，我在對財政部的質詢裡面看到……"],["莊部長翠雲：而且我們有一個估測模型的成立，希望……"],["黃委員健豪：包含執政黨的委員也不滿意你們這個專家小組啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：蛤？"],["黃委員健豪：我說包含執政黨的委員也對你們專家小組的成效打了很大的問號。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分尤其是從113年來看的話，增加得比較多的是證交稅，也就是說，我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3,500億元，事實上已經比前一年增加將近1,000億，但是今年到目前為止，其實日均量達到五千多億，所以這個部分事實上整個的熱絡……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我打斷你一下，不好意思。這部分你先前在我們對財政部質詢的時候都已經回應過了，我只是要問說……應該說我希望，從明年開始，我們希望超徵的稅收（對我來講這叫做超徵，當然你們有你們的名詞解釋）不要再這麼多，因為這都是來自人民的納稅錢嘛！好不好？這是第一個。","第二個，過去幾年，111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電，我想問一下，今年這4,000億稅收的部分會不會也這樣？因為你們提到要用來還債，請問這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，今年的實徵數超過預算數，中央的部分大概是3,000億，這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債，這個舉債是公務預算的舉債，而台電是一個公司組織，並不在公務預算裡面……"],["黃委員健豪：所以這4,000億不會用來撥補台電？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，撥補台電是另外……"],["黃委員健豪：我知道撥補台電是另外，我說……"],["莊部長翠雲：我是說我在舉債的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：今天的這個4,000億……"],["卓院長榮泰：……"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["黃委員健豪：院長說什麼？對不起。院長，你剛剛有回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：我在早上的報告裡有講到，這次追加預算我們用的是歲計賸餘。"],["黃委員健豪：我先不提這次追加預算，這次追加預算是另外一件事情，我講的是，今年光是超徵的這4,000億，你即將用來還債嘛！還債的……"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們減少舉債，然後增加還債，之外會累計到歲計賸餘，歲計賸餘以後就做為以後的融資財源，以後的融資財源當然是在運用上的話，就看整個資源的配置、在預算上如何配置它的資源。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長的回應。我想如果用到賸餘財源裡面去的話，就會發生跟今年類似的狀況啦！因為我看我們即將要進入審查的這1,000億也是用過去賸餘的部分來處理。這樣我聽得懂了！好，謝謝，部長可以請回座。","我們看一下今天台電的部分，我想，1,000億大概是什麼概念？1,000億就是政府全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出，差不多就是1,000億，換句話說，如果這1,000億的撥補不是給台電的話，我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍，這是我的概念。我常常講，台電過去是歹竹出好筍，這幾年卻有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺，每年都在跟政府要求經費的補貼。112年已經給了1,500加5,000，今年已經先給了1,000，現在又正在要求追加預算的1,000。當然，我想開源節流很重要，對吧？開源節流從今年的財報和結構來講，電費調漲的部分目前為止已經有630億的收入，在能源減免的部分，因為今年能源價格有稍微下跌一點，所以按照預估可以省下400億，一來一回之間今年大概已經多出1,000億了，就是公務預算已經有1,000億了。按照財報，電費今年增加了嘛，收入預計會有630億，成本又下降了400億，合計起來，這個1,000再加1,000，然後現在又再多1,000，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：算法是這樣算沒有錯，公務預算和追加預算各有1,000億。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我為什麼說慈母多敗兒？這個錢是越加越多。院長，開源節流，我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情，這個……"],["郭部長智輝：嗯……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想是這樣子，我們這一次請大院能夠了解，這1,000億事實上在彌補我們過去因為政策上要照顧民生而沒有漲價的部分，所累積的虧損……"],["黃委員健豪：有，這個我知道，你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們希望能夠改善台電的財務狀況，因為現在我們財務虧損那麼多，我們必須要跟銀行借錢，借錢的利息負擔其實也蠻沉重的，如果再繼續不改善的話，我們利息的這個籌碼就沒有了，所以這點請大院務必能夠了解，然後給我們這1,000億的撥補。至於經營方面，我們會努力的，就像您剛才所說的，因為我們造成虧損大概就是材料的成本太高……"],["黃委員健豪：部長既然提到借錢，我們就要跟你談借錢的問題，借錢有利息的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員健豪：111年跟112年因為利率調升，所以你們的利息費用從205億增加到279億，從今年來講，111年度利息的費用占你們所謂的成本結構裡面，按照發電成本結構裡面占2.22%，去年占2.87%，今年已經來到3.62%。所以我剛剛提到開源節流，今天你要跟立法院要1,000億之前，我們要問的是，你們有沒有想辦法節流，比如利息的部分，台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任，要去穩定物價、穩定民生，為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢？為什麼我們政府不能出手呢？如果你連新青安都可以出手的話，台電是負責全國的電力，為什麼台電的利息占比從2.22%提升到3.62%，從企業經營的角度，增加1.4%在你們的成本結構裡面，不該去處理嗎？有人去處理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，銀行有它的授信條件，所以我的財務狀況如果沒有改善，但是我在政策上面又要去照顧這些民生的電價，不讓它漲、要凍漲，這是有一點困難在那個地方，所以如果大院能夠同意讓這個撥補進來，趕快改善財務，我的信評就不會下降，這一點請委員考量，我想委員相當可以同意嘛？你看我借的錢那麼高、比例那麼高，事實上我們可以從這個地方改善，當然經營上面，我們要儘量經營，讓它是正向的收益，我想這在企業的上面，我個人是非常贊同……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，謝謝。","我要問一下院長。院長，剛剛部長也提到，的確我知道銀行有授信條件，但是今天台電是獨占、是國家的嘛，台電負擔這麼多重責大任，那麼就像我提到的，有關於利率，對於一般企業，當然授信條件會調整，但是對台電，理論上，你今天又要再跟我們要1,000億，但是你的節流沒有先做啊！你們有去努力過嗎？我想問一下院長，你們有找財政部、找各家銀行談過，是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎？還是就是市場多少，我就照多少走？"],["卓院長榮泰：台電基本上是一個股份有限公司，它應該用公司的治理，但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠。財政部長就坐在這邊，他們可以自己談一談。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望你們至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來，不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛！","再來，看到所謂的發電成本，我想今天既然要來檢討1,000億的問題，因為我們看到追加預算的總說明裡面，八百多字都沒有提到結構的問題，只有不斷地重複說因為你們要穩定民生，所以需要這1,000億，但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損，卻隻字不提。但是我們看到台電歷年來的成本結構，大家都很清楚一件事情，不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力，成本逐年上升，確實也是實際上的問題。我們就要問了，你自發電力的成本，很明顯地就比所謂的購入電力來得低，尤其在再生能源的部分，再生能源的部分，你們自發電力的平均成本只要二點多塊，購入電力的話，再生能源的成本，是從106年的3.69元，現在平均成本漲到了5.2元、5.3元。所以這就是核心的問題，就是你們到底錢花到哪裡去？包含我們看到整個發電成本的改變，從110年開始，的確大幅地上漲、大幅地上升，所以這幾年虧損得非常嚴重，110年之後，虧損只有幾百億而已，現在破千億了，四千多億。今天院長早上講的數字是四千多億，所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題，我想問一下，對於發電成本，今天假設真的同意1,000億給你們，而你的發電成本沒有改變的情況下面，不是虧損繼續嗎？去年已經累積虧損三千多億了，去年也撥補了，還是累積虧損三千多億，如果今年又再撥補1,000億進去，您的虧損是不是還會持續下去？"],["卓院長榮泰：三點跟委員報告：第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢，臺灣為了吸引更多國際大廠來提供綠電也是必備的條件之一；再來是電價成本的計算，台電應該從內控做好更多成本計算的管理，才能反映出真正的發電成本；第三點發展綠能過程當中，未來一定要全力杜絕各種犯罪來增加各種不必要的支出跟負擔。我想這樣做下來之後，是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價，我們朝這個方向來努力，至於核電價格表面看起來是比較低的，可是未來隱性成本處理核廢料的費用是相當、相當的大。"],["黃委員健豪：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在綠能的發展……"],["黃委員健豪：既然主動提到核電的部分了，我就要問……"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是說那句話，綠能發展已經過了最高峰的成本時代，未來就一定是往下降，包括……"],["黃委員健豪：這個我待會跟您討論，這也會討論到。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們已經度過最困難的時代……"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在大家支持我們就有更好的方向可以走。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，您剛剛既然主動提到核能，您說帳面上看起來價格比較低，隱性成本比較高，那就是台電的問題嘛，或經濟部的問題嘛，如果……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["黃委員健豪：如果隱性成本比較高。沒有，我不是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：核廢料處理的問題。"],["黃委員健豪：我不說處理有問題，我是說沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情，您照理論來講，核電後端成本有成本的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：有，有核後端基金，很多啊！"],["黃委員健豪：再生能源後續後端也有處理的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員健豪：如果這樣算下去也算不完嘛，這樣算應該是所有能源配比、後續怎麼退場的機制，太陽能光電板要回收也需要成本，也是都要把成本記錄在財報裡面，如果沒有的話也只能就現有台電貼給我們財報來討論這些數字，您講後面的事情我覺得這不太公平，包含再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理，您也沒辦法放進去。到最後因為時間不夠了，我要講沒有人會跟台電過不去啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：大家都希望台電能夠活下來。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：但是就像我一開始講的，這叫慈母多敗兒。我們今天最擔心的是什麼？就是今天1,000億會花到哪裡去？再生能源自發電力金額是2.53元，購入電力卻高達5.2元，加上媒體報導說有綠電蟑螂，今天最擔心的就是1,000億元給你們之後，結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方。自己發電這麼便宜，可是採購的成本又這麼高，這1,000億到底會花到哪裡去？我想這才是民眾關心的。院長，到底能不能處理這些治安問題，如果你處理得好我們才能放心把錢交給你嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員的叮嚀跟鞭策，我剛剛也說過綠能犯罪問題，我們應該全力杜絕，這個跟委員一起努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在議場2樓旁聽的是中華韓友慈善協會所有的好朋友們，熱烈歡迎！熱烈歡迎！慈善協會還有包括美國都有來，謝謝，熱情歡迎。","接下來請登記第9號蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}}