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\"end\": 724.413, \"text\": \"國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 698.379, \"end\": 698.639, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 698.639, \"end\": 699.34, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 699.34, \"end\": 699.5, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 699.5, \"end\": 699.64, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 699.64, \"end\": 700.1, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"股\", \"start\": 700.1, \"end\": 700.26, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 700.26, \"end\": 700.46, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 700.46, \"end\": 700.64, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"股\", \"start\": 700.64, \"end\": 700.96, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"佔\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 700.96, \"end\": 702.101, 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801.292, \"end\": 801.452, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 801.452, \"end\": 801.572, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 801.572, \"end\": 801.752, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 801.752, \"end\": 802.753, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 802.753, \"end\": 803.013, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 803.013, \"end\": 803.594, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 803.594, \"end\": 803.774, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 803.774, \"end\": 804.054, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 804.054, \"end\": 804.174, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 804.174, \"end\": 804.355, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 804.355, \"end\": 804.755, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 804.755, \"end\": 805.195, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 805.195, \"end\": 805.336, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 805.336, \"end\": 805.576, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 805.576, \"end\": 805.696, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 805.696, \"end\": 805.736, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 805.736, \"end\": 806.337, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 806.337, \"end\": 806.697, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 806.697, \"end\": 806.717, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}]}, {\"start\": 809.246, \"end\": 833.428, \"text\": \"那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 809.246, \"end\": 809.386, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 809.386, \"end\": 809.526, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 809.526, \"end\": 809.666, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 809.666, \"end\": 809.807, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 809.807, \"end\": 810.267, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 810.267, \"end\": 810.347, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 810.347, \"end\": 810.487, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 810.487, \"end\": 810.647, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"聊\", \"start\": 810.647, \"end\": 811.208, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 811.208, \"end\": 811.448, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 811.448, \"end\": 812.429, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 812.429, \"end\": 812.589, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 812.589, \"end\": 812.769, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 812.769, \"end\": 813.129, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 813.129, \"end\": 813.27, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 813.27, \"end\": 813.51, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 813.51, \"end\": 814.01, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 814.01, \"end\": 814.511, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 814.511, \"end\": 815.131, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 815.131, \"end\": 815.291, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 815.291, \"end\": 815.412, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 815.412, \"end\": 817.313, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 817.313, \"end\": 817.453, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 817.453, \"end\": 817.794, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 817.794, \"end\": 818.574, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 818.574, \"end\": 819.155, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 819.155, \"end\": 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823.038, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 823.038, \"end\": 823.258, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"恐\", \"start\": 823.258, \"end\": 823.419, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"怖\", \"start\": 823.419, \"end\": 824.44, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 824.44, \"end\": 824.66, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 824.66, \"end\": 825.581, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"兆\", \"start\": 825.581, \"end\": 825.901, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 825.901, \"end\": 826.201, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 826.201, \"end\": 827.682, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 827.682, \"end\": 828.643, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 828.643, \"end\": 829.144, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 829.144, \"end\": 829.264, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 829.264, \"end\": 829.604, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 829.604, \"end\": 830.225, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 830.225, \"end\": 830.405, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 830.405, \"end\": 831.646, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 831.646, \"end\": 831.886, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 831.886, \"end\": 832.086, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 832.086, \"end\": 833.147, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 833.147, \"end\": 833.267, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 833.267, \"end\": 833.408, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 833.408, \"end\": 833.428, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"億\"}]}, {\"start\": 834.534, \"end\": 853.314, \"text\": \"所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 834.534, \"end\": 834.654, \"score\": 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845.105, \"end\": 845.966, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 845.966, \"end\": 846.287, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"莊\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 846.287, \"end\": 847.548, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 847.548, \"end\": 847.888, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 847.888, \"end\": 848.089, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 848.089, \"end\": 848.229, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 848.229, \"end\": 848.829, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 848.829, \"end\": 849.09, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 849.09, \"end\": 849.27, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 849.27, \"end\": 850.431, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 850.431, \"end\": 850.651, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 850.651, \"end\": 850.871, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 850.871, \"end\": 851.112, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 851.112, \"end\": 851.272, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 851.272, \"end\": 851.512, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 851.512, \"end\": 852.133, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 852.133, \"end\": 853.294, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 853.294, \"end\": 853.314, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"過\"}]}, {\"start\": 854.435, \"end\": 876.636, \"text\": \"預算數3800億 中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 854.435, \"end\": 855.937, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": 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953.002, \"end\": 953.022, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 953.022, \"end\": 953.202, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 953.202, \"end\": 953.302, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 953.302, \"end\": 953.442, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 953.442, \"end\": 953.462, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,576 --> 00:00:12,722\n謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題\n\n2\n00:00:32,162 --> 00:00:56,259\n因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅\n\n3\n00:00:59,462 --> 00:01:19,689\n這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰\n\n4\n00:01:20,925 --> 00:01:32,749\n美中貿易戰從過去祭出301調查後來看起來拜登政府是延續301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候還針對中國的電動車課了100%的重稅\n\n5\n00:01:38,331 --> 00:02:06,181\n那針對中國的太陽能半導體都課了60%的一個稅金好那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了\n\n6\n00:02:06,661 --> 00:02:19,348\n那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區\n\n7\n00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:48,512\n我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查\n\n8\n00:02:50,413 --> 00:03:05,668\n這個檢附的文件都由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要有\n\n9\n00:03:07,010 --> 00:03:25,770\n這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來\n\n10\n00:03:27,091 --> 00:03:48,674\n中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法首先非常敬佩\n\n11\n00:03:49,522 --> 00:04:14,691\n委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到\n\n12\n00:04:15,231 --> 00:04:36,038\n我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主公益鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定\n\n13\n00:04:39,605 --> 00:04:54,258\n後來這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業它就是過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼\n\n14\n00:04:56,236 --> 00:05:19,716\n補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地\n\n15\n00:05:23,388 --> 00:05:42,419\n這個席產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣MadeinTaiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該成為政府\n\n16\n00:05:46,997 --> 00:06:08,260\n政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成為這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望MadeinTaiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為\n\n17\n00:06:09,341 --> 00:06:27,777\n我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是\n\n18\n00:06:28,357 --> 00:06:45,194\n我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損\n\n19\n00:06:46,115 --> 00:07:10,071\n那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來度過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億\n\n20\n00:07:10,811 --> 00:07:22,477\n那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是\n\n21\n00:07:25,506 --> 00:07:46,928\n各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓他有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及\n\n22\n00:07:47,569 --> 00:08:11,826\n各種的這個政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他\n\n23\n00:08:13,306 --> 00:08:33,291\n這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整\n\n24\n00:08:34,278 --> 00:08:55,091\n那我們在看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題\n\n25\n00:08:55,891 --> 00:09:08,005\n所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個\n\n26\n00:09:10,848 --> 00:09:32,238\n政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚\n\n27\n00:09:32,638 --> 00:09:51,988\n所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億\n\n28\n00:09:54,961 --> 00:10:11,169\n5千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那\n\n29\n00:10:14,771 --> 00:10:29,809\n剩下的7%包括土地銀行和庫也是第2大的是19%但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%\n\n30\n00:10:33,954 --> 00:10:58,374\n那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行你說國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款他的誘因比較急\n\n31\n00:11:00,333 --> 00:11:14,162\n中原49也很高的不過它也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行台企業的利息比較高高一點點甚至台銀它是說所有的銀行台銀的利息最高\n\n32\n00:11:15,892 --> 00:11:36,298\n臺銀的利息最高所以這個就變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的他們也是我們北省的嘛但是他們的利息比較高所以臺電就不給大家借就給大家民營借\n\n33\n00:11:38,379 --> 00:12:04,413\n國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧\n\n34\n00:12:05,789 --> 00:12:21,966\n還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最高當然我就不要理他了只有台電的立評就是說我情願可以當理想工最高這樣啦理想工最高我非常理他這是合理的嘛\n\n35\n00:12:26,773 --> 00:12:41,848\n所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我學會說啊再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料耶\n\n36\n00:12:44,191 --> 00:12:53,643\n是不是這樣這個部分我想我們回去以後因為涉及到資金成本等等問題我們可以長債跟短債之間的關係我想這個還是長債跟短債之間當然有長債短債但是我有跟內部這樣溝通起來他說\n\n37\n00:13:04,315 --> 00:13:26,717\n主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營他的財務狀況能夠讓他好轉\n\n38\n00:13:29,246 --> 00:13:53,428\n那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億\n\n39\n00:13:54,534 --> 00:14:13,314\n所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過\n\n40\n00:14:14,435 --> 00:14:36,636\n預算數3800億中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金\n\n41\n00:14:39,759 --> 00:15:00,089\n因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完的感覺就沒了花完的感覺我覺得我們現在要正視的就是說台灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們台灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦\n\n42\n00:15:05,295 --> 00:15:26,852\n而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年,因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年他們都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底他當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算\n\n43\n00:15:51,561 --> 00:15:53,462\n謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3576\t12722\t謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題\n32162\t56259\t因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅\n59462\t79689\t這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰\n80925\t92749\t美中貿易戰從過去祭出301調查後來看起來拜登政府是延續301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候還針對中國的電動車課了100%的重稅\n98331\t126181\t那針對中國的太陽能半導體都課了60%的一個稅金好 那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了\n126661\t139348\t那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好 那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區\n141756\t168512\t我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查\n170413\t185668\t這個檢附的文件都由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要有\n187010\t205770\t這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來\n207091\t228674\t中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法首先非常敬佩\n229522\t254691\t委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到\n255231\t276038\t我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主公益鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定\n279605\t294258\t後來這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業它就是過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼\n296236\t319716\t補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地\n323388\t342419\t這個席產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣Made in Taiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該成為政府\n346997\t368260\t政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成為這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望Made in Taiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為\n369341\t387777\t我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是\n388357\t405194\t我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損\n406115\t430071\t那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來度過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億\n430811\t442477\t那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是\n445506\t466928\t各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓他有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及\n467569\t491826\t各種的這個政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他\n493306\t513291\t這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整\n514278\t535091\t那我們在看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題\n535891\t548005\t所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個\n550848\t572238\t政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚\n572638\t591988\t所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億\n594961\t611169\t5千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那\n614771\t629809\t剩下的7%包括土地銀行和庫也是第2大的是19%但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%\n633954\t658374\t那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行你說國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款他的誘因比較急\n660333\t674162\t中原49也很高的 不過它也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行台企業的利息比較高高一點點甚至台銀 它是說所有的銀行 台銀的利息最高\n675892\t696298\t臺銀的利息最高所以這個就變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟 照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的 他們也是我們北省的嘛但是他們的利息比較高所以臺電就不給大家借就給大家民營借\n698379\t724413\t國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧\n725789\t741966\t還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最高當然我就不要理他了只有台電的立評就是說我情願可以當理想工最高這樣啦理想工最高我非常理他這是合理的嘛\n746773\t761848\t所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我學會說 啊 再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對 利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料耶\n764191\t773643\t是不是這樣這個部分我想我們回去以後因為涉及到資金成本等等問題我們可以長債跟短債之間的關係我想這個還是長債跟短債之間當然有長債短債但是我有跟內部這樣溝通起來他說\n784315\t806717\t主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營他的財務狀況能夠讓他好轉\n809246\t833428\t那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億\n834534\t853314\t所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過\n854435\t876636\t預算數3800億 中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金\n879759\t900089\t因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完的感覺就沒了花完的感覺我覺得我們現在要正視的就是說台灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們台灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦\n905295\t926852\t而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年,因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年他們都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底他當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算\n951561\t953462\t謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止\n","txt":"謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題\n因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅\n這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰\n美中貿易戰從過去祭出301調查後來看起來拜登政府是延續301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候還針對中國的電動車課了100%的重稅\n那針對中國的太陽能半導體都課了60%的一個稅金好 那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了\n那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好 那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區\n我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查\n這個檢附的文件都由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要有\n這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來\n中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法首先非常敬佩\n委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到\n我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主公益鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定\n後來這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業它就是過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼\n補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地\n這個席產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣Made in Taiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該成為政府\n政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成為這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望Made in Taiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為\n我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是\n我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損\n那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來度過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億\n那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是\n各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓他有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及\n各種的這個政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他\n這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整\n那我們在看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題\n所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個\n政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚\n所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億\n5千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那\n剩下的7%包括土地銀行和庫也是第2大的是19%但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%\n那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行你說國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款他的誘因比較急\n中原49也很高的 不過它也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行台企業的利息比較高高一點點甚至台銀 它是說所有的銀行 台銀的利息最高\n臺銀的利息最高所以這個就變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟 照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的 他們也是我們北省的嘛但是他們的利息比較高所以臺電就不給大家借就給大家民營借\n國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧\n還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最高當然我就不要理他了只有台電的立評就是說我情願可以當理想工最高這樣啦理想工最高我非常理他這是合理的嘛\n所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我學會說 啊 再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對 利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料耶\n是不是這樣這個部分我想我們回去以後因為涉及到資金成本等等問題我們可以長債跟短債之間的關係我想這個還是長債跟短債之間當然有長債短債但是我有跟內部這樣溝通起來他說\n主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營他的財務狀況能夠讓他好轉\n那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億\n所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過\n預算數3800億 中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金\n因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完的感覺就沒了花完的感覺我覺得我們現在要正視的就是說台灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們台灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦\n而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年,因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年他們都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底他當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算\n謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.576 --> 00:12.722\n謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題\n\n00:32.162 --> 00:56.259\n因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅\n\n00:59.462 --> 01:19.689\n這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰\n\n01:20.925 --> 01:32.749\n美中貿易戰從過去祭出301調查後來看起來拜登政府是延續301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候還針對中國的電動車課了100%的重稅\n\n01:38.331 --> 02:06.181\n那針對中國的太陽能半導體都課了60%的一個稅金好那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了\n\n02:06.661 --> 02:19.348\n那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區\n\n02:21.756 --> 02:48.512\n我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查\n\n02:50.413 --> 03:05.668\n這個檢附的文件都由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要有\n\n03:07.010 --> 03:25.770\n這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來\n\n03:27.091 --> 03:48.674\n中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法首先非常敬佩\n\n03:49.522 --> 04:14.691\n委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到\n\n04:15.231 --> 04:36.038\n我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主公益鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定\n\n04:39.605 --> 04:54.258\n後來這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業它就是過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼\n\n04:56.236 --> 05:19.716\n補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地\n\n05:23.388 --> 05:42.419\n這個席產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣MadeinTaiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該成為政府\n\n05:46.997 --> 06:08.260\n政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成為這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望MadeinTaiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為\n\n06:09.341 --> 06:27.777\n我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是\n\n06:28.357 --> 06:45.194\n我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損\n\n06:46.115 --> 07:10.071\n那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來度過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億\n\n07:10.811 --> 07:22.477\n那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是\n\n07:25.506 --> 07:46.928\n各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓他有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及\n\n07:47.569 --> 08:11.826\n各種的這個政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他\n\n08:13.306 --> 08:33.291\n這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整\n\n08:34.278 --> 08:55.091\n那我們在看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題\n\n08:55.891 --> 09:08.005\n所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個\n\n09:10.848 --> 09:32.238\n政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚\n\n09:32.638 --> 09:51.988\n所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億\n\n09:54.961 --> 10:11.169\n5千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那\n\n10:14.771 --> 10:29.809\n剩下的7%包括土地銀行和庫也是第2大的是19%但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%\n\n10:33.954 --> 10:58.374\n那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行你說國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款他的誘因比較急\n\n11:00.333 --> 11:14.162\n中原49也很高的不過它也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行台企業的利息比較高高一點點甚至台銀它是說所有的銀行台銀的利息最高\n\n11:15.892 --> 11:36.298\n臺銀的利息最高所以這個就變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的他們也是我們北省的嘛但是他們的利息比較高所以臺電就不給大家借就給大家民營借\n\n11:38.379 --> 12:04.413\n國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧\n\n12:05.789 --> 12:21.966\n還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最高當然我就不要理他了只有台電的立評就是說我情願可以當理想工最高這樣啦理想工最高我非常理他這是合理的嘛\n\n12:26.773 --> 12:41.848\n所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我學會說啊再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料耶\n\n12:44.191 --> 12:53.643\n是不是這樣這個部分我想我們回去以後因為涉及到資金成本等等問題我們可以長債跟短債之間的關係我想這個還是長債跟短債之間當然有長債短債但是我有跟內部這樣溝通起來他說\n\n13:04.315 --> 13:26.717\n主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營他的財務狀況能夠讓他好轉\n\n13:29.246 --> 13:53.428\n那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億\n\n13:54.534 --> 14:13.314\n所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過\n\n14:14.435 --> 14:36.636\n預算數3800億中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金\n\n14:39.759 --> 15:00.089\n因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完的感覺就沒了花完的感覺我覺得我們現在要正視的就是說台灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們台灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦\n\n15:05.295 --> 15:26.852\n而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年,因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年他們都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底他當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算\n\n15:51.561 --> 15:53.462\n謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.576,"end":12.722,"text":"謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題"},{"start":32.162,"end":56.259,"text":"因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅"},{"start":59.462,"end":79.689,"text":"這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰"},{"start":80.925,"end":92.749,"text":"美中貿易戰從過去祭出301調查後來看起來拜登政府是延續301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候還針對中國的電動車課了100%的重稅"},{"start":98.331,"end":126.181,"text":"那針對中國的太陽能半導體都課了60%的一個稅金好 那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了"},{"start":126.661,"end":139.348,"text":"那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好 那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區"},{"start":141.756,"end":168.512,"text":"我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查"},{"start":170.413,"end":185.668,"text":"這個檢附的文件都由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要有"},{"start":187.01,"end":205.77,"text":"這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來"},{"start":207.091,"end":228.674,"text":"中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法首先非常敬佩"},{"start":229.522,"end":254.691,"text":"委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到"},{"start":255.231,"end":276.038,"text":"我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主公益鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定"},{"start":279.605,"end":294.258,"text":"後來這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業它就是過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼"},{"start":296.236,"end":319.716,"text":"補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地"},{"start":323.388,"end":342.419,"text":"這個席產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣Made in Taiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該成為政府"},{"start":346.997,"end":368.26,"text":"政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成為這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望Made in Taiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為"},{"start":369.341,"end":387.777,"text":"我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是"},{"start":388.357,"end":405.194,"text":"我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損"},{"start":406.115,"end":430.071,"text":"那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來度過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億"},{"start":430.811,"end":442.477,"text":"那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是"},{"start":445.506,"end":466.928,"text":"各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓他有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及"},{"start":467.569,"end":491.826,"text":"各種的這個政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他"},{"start":493.306,"end":513.291,"text":"這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整"},{"start":514.278,"end":535.091,"text":"那我們在看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題"},{"start":535.891,"end":548.005,"text":"所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個"},{"start":550.848,"end":572.238,"text":"政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚"},{"start":572.638,"end":591.988,"text":"所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億"},{"start":594.961,"end":611.169,"text":"5千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那"},{"start":614.771,"end":629.809,"text":"剩下的7%包括土地銀行和庫也是第2大的是19%但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%"},{"start":633.954,"end":658.374,"text":"那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行你說國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款他的誘因比較急"},{"start":660.333,"end":674.162,"text":"中原49也很高的 不過它也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行台企業的利息比較高高一點點甚至台銀 它是說所有的銀行 台銀的利息最高"},{"start":675.892,"end":696.298,"text":"臺銀的利息最高所以這個就變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟 照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的 他們也是我們北省的嘛但是他們的利息比較高所以臺電就不給大家借就給大家民營借"},{"start":698.379,"end":724.413,"text":"國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧"},{"start":725.789,"end":741.966,"text":"還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最高當然我就不要理他了只有台電的立評就是說我情願可以當理想工最高這樣啦理想工最高我非常理他這是合理的嘛"},{"start":746.773,"end":761.848,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我學會說 啊 再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對 利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料耶"},{"start":764.191,"end":773.643,"text":"是不是這樣這個部分我想我們回去以後因為涉及到資金成本等等問題我們可以長債跟短債之間的關係我想這個還是長債跟短債之間當然有長債短債但是我有跟內部這樣溝通起來他說"},{"start":784.315,"end":806.717,"text":"主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營他的財務狀況能夠讓他好轉"},{"start":809.246,"end":833.428,"text":"那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億"},{"start":834.534,"end":853.314,"text":"所以我們在今年度,事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收,你把去年抄這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長,我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧?去年喔,去年全國是超過"},{"start":854.435,"end":876.636,"text":"預算數3800億 中央是2900億那今年我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金"},{"start":879.759,"end":900.089,"text":"因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完的感覺就沒了花完的感覺我覺得我們現在要正視的就是說台灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們台灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦"},{"start":905.295,"end":926.852,"text":"而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年,因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年他們都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底他當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算"},{"start":951.561,"end":953.462,"text":"謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時38分）謝謝院長，請卓院長及經濟部、財政部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部、財政部兩位部長備詢。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長，趁今天在處理台電追加預算的時候，我想先聊這兩天的時事題。因為昨天新聞報導，川普政府雖然還沒有上任，但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題，其中包括為了要防止秘魯中企港轉運，川普團隊認為只要經過中國擁有或控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%關稅。這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來，他也說類似像秘魯錢凱港或該地區中國有辦法控制商品的港口，轉運的商品喔。","這件事情讓我們知道川普事實上就是開啟了美中貿易戰，美中貿易戰從過去他祭出301調查，後來拜登政府看起來是延續了他301調查的態度，在拜登政府的時候，還針對中國的電動車課了100%重稅，針對中國的太陽能、半導體都課了60%稅金。那如果以這樣的一個趨勢，臺灣這幾年的經濟發展，我們對中國的貿易依賴是逐年下降，對美國也提高，而且在今年度還超越了歐盟，所以現在美國已經是臺灣的第二大貿易市場，所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深。","那我要進入我要問的了，如果在此時此刻，包括美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況，那我們現在就看到我們的現實面，立法院有人正在推離島自經區，我們在立法院看到有人在推離島自經區，那其中的一個條文，這個條文是由我們的陳玉珍委員所提的條文，他認為離島建設條例要增訂第十八條之一，這個第十八條之一要把離島變成一個自由貿易的示範區，這個自由貿易的示範區，它針對整個自經區的管理辦法，包括資格審查、檢附的文件，都由離島政府的自治條例來訂，然後報行政院備查。也就是說，未來離島建設條例第十八條之一，可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例第四十條之一，就是所謂必須要由中央政府來做審查，或者是兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條，關於中國的船舶或者是運輸工具要來臺灣的話，要有主管機關的許可，甚至還包括政府採購法，都直接跳過，就是未來中國可以在離島這邊直接來做採購的業務，這樣是要讓離島走向秘魯這樣的道路嗎？所以院長，我想要聽一下，現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的演變，我們中央政府有怎樣的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，非常敬佩委員非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的，或是未來可能實施的政策，它會直接牽動到整個國際的局勢，委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能在變更上面帶來的各種影響，我覺得我們要深深在心理上做一個心理準備，要引以為戒，不要陷入到……我在想說什麼是未來國際的主流，臺灣應該跟主流站在一起，我們站在民主供應鏈，站在民主理念相同國家，這個主流臺灣是不會改變也不能改變的。世界地理上和平要穩定發展，經濟上也要均衡互惠，產業結構上也要合理的合作，如果有人破壞了這個穩定、破壞了這個均衡，也破壞了平等跟互惠，當然它會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象，世界大國不要成為這樣的對象。"],["蔡委員易餘：基本上中國的企業過去就是補助，尤其是政府的補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平，所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷，包括川普現在很想把一些工廠、一些勞動力回到美國，基本上他就是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成經濟的不公平。我現在很煩惱，我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區，未來會不會變成洗產地？這個洗產地的問題，然後讓臺灣未來的Made In Taiwan被貼上標籤，變成中國製造，把它畫上等號之後，那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反蝕了臺灣現在的出口，臺灣現在科技產業的優勢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的這個顧慮應該成為政府的顧慮，我們不希望我們有一天會成了這樣子，同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望Made In Taiwan這個金字招牌有一天會被取代，所以我是覺得這個我們應該從政策的因應上面好好的來處理，也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候，也要以國際局勢的主流發展為先。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想這件事情真的很重要，當然這個問題在立法院，我也希望我們立法院在通過、在處理這樣一個法案的時候一定要審慎，應該為了臺灣整個大局的安全，我想這個應該要審慎。","第二個回到今天的主題，我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後整個成本的提高，院長，事實上你在今天的報告中也舉例說到，類似在日本、在韓國，國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的虧損，用政府補助的方式來協助台電這樣的國營事業度過難關，事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做，我們臺灣到目前為止透過補助或增資的方式給台電已經……如果再加上這次追加預算可以通過的話，我們將挹注4,000億，如果這4,000億挹注之後，我們對台電未來的穩定，讓他們不再虧損，能夠穩定經營，院長你們有信心嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：電業虧損各國都有，補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一，因為每個國家有不同的處遇，我們從過去的增資到現在這次的補貼政策，我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力，讓它有辦法更新設備、加強電網，同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及各種政策補助，對以前的虧損作出回應，未來台電的經營方式，部長跟我們都說過很多次，內控要嚴謹，從它的採購機制、資金靈活調度、人員管理都必須做很全面地改革，才能再次爭取國人的信任。我相信在郭部長用他經營企業的理念之下，他有信心對台電做大力地整頓，是不是請郭部長來表達？"],["蔡委員易餘：來，請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們很快地去檢視台電過去為什麼虧損，然後從那個虧損的原因裡面拿出來檢討，看我們有沒有什麼新的能力把它調整。看起來過去的虧損主要還是因為兩個項目，第一個就是補貼，因為它沒有辦法漲價，所以用補貼，因為考慮到民生物價，所以它不漲，這個部分非台電本身能力的問題；第二個是它買材料的價格高了，這個是環境的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以對我們來講，未來要改善的就是從這兩個部分來做，一個是從採購的部分，因為我們不管是材料還是設備，都是從國外買的，我們不允許它的成本增加；第二個，對於政策上面補貼的部分，我們希望能夠對各個機構從節流、節電上面來協助它正確使用電。相信透過這兩個機制做下來，台電應該是可以表現得比過去更精準。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長事實上對台電未來有……你們會加強透過管理的方式，讓他們可以更加精進嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上我也要提出一個具體的建議，我上次質詢的時候就有講到，因為我們知道台電負債很多，現在這個負債如果這樣抓起來，可能已經到五千多億，五千多億是一個很大的負債，有負債當然就應該跟銀行舉債，所以我事實上就滿好奇的，到底跟哪些銀行舉債？後來我經過資料的整理以後，我發現台電的舉債大概37%是跟臺灣銀行，剩下的7%來自包括土地銀行、合庫也是第二大的，占19%。但是我們實際把它區分起來，就有國營跟民營，對不對？所以看起來國營的是48%，民營的有51%，站在我們對於整個……站在政府的立場，台電公司如果遇見了這樣的狀況，我們大家百姓用稅金去幫它，我們就會認為，台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行，由國營銀行來借它。","後來我又再細部去看，台電為什麼跟國營銀行借款的誘因較少？當然，49%也很高，但是其中也有誘因的問題，就是因為國營銀行要求的利息比較高，高一點點，甚至臺銀……它是說在所有銀行中，臺銀的利息最高，所以這個就會變成台電在取捨上會有一個難度。照理說，我應該要多跟臺銀借，因為國營銀行的利息收入也是屬於大家的，就是百姓的，但是因為它的利息比較高，所以台電就不願意向它借，而去向民營的借，雖然是向民營借，裡面有部分的官股，可是官股占一點點，這樣的比例上，我認為台電這樣的借款是一筆很大的錢，我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給台電的比例，這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率，等於也是替整個中央政府來省錢的意思，院長，我這樣說，你應該可以理解吧！還是由……"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以……"],["蔡委員易餘：想要借比較多，不過借比較多，它的利息最高，當然我就不要跟它借。"],["郭部長智輝：是，就台電的立場，就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：就台電的立場，我還是要……"],["郭部長智輝：儘量把利息降到最低。"],["蔡委員易餘：利息降低，我就儘量跟它借，這是合理的，所以我是覺得這個中間有一些還是要調整一下，臺銀這邊，財政部長可以去考慮看看，對不對？利息降一點，台電多借一點，我們也不會賠，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，這個部分，我們回去以後，因為這也涉及到資金成本等等問題，我們可以……"],["郭部長智輝：這是長債和短債之間的關係，我想這個還是長債和短債之間……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然、當然，有長債、短債，但是我跟內部這樣溝通起來，他說主要還是臺銀的利息比較高，相對其他銀行，它是最高的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員說的也不無道理，我們今天希望大院支持追加預算，我們自己也要表現一下誠意……"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：先謝謝院長，我們表現一下誠意，回去我們好好檢討一下，大院支持，我們自己也量力來做好這些工作……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然、當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓台電的財務狀況能夠好轉。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我最後一題要聊我們今年的稅收差不多在9月的時候聽說就達標了，所以事實上臺灣這幾年經濟的那種爆發力很恐怖！去年我們預估稅收2兆3,000億，結果後來超出了將近5,000億，所以今年度我們預估稅收已經抓到了兩兆七千多億，這等於是把去年超徵的都灌進來了，結果今年還是這樣，看起來，莊部長，應該多個3,000、4,000億，還是會有吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年全國是超過預算數3,800億，中央是2,900億，今年我們的歲入預算在10月底已經達成全年度的目標，主要還是稅課收入的成績好，稅課收入今年在全國大概會超過4,000億，中央的部分會超過3,000億……"],["蔡委員易餘：會再超過，就超過還滿多的……"],["莊部長翠雲：主要還是經濟成長的……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我贊成你說的，我們不用再普發現金，因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心，但是那個開心，花完了，感覺就沒了……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：花完了，感覺就沒了。我覺得我們現在要正視的就是臺灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長，但是相對的很多過去臺灣很重點的產業，包括做螺絲的，包括翻砂這種重產業，他們確實這幾年比較辛苦，而且他們的辛苦不是今年，不是今年，他們差不多是從戰爭之後就開始辛苦，所以這幾年都是他們的谷底，那我們在計算這一次電價調整的時候是用今年做標準，用今年不好的，可是他說他2年前就不好了，2年前他就在谷底了，他在谷底，所以他當然沒有辦法被經濟部計算到，他們這幾年比較辛苦，我覺得我們有這樣新增的、多出來的預算，要回過頭對過去的傳統產業再多給一點關心，這樣好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們謝謝國人的辛苦，也感謝產業界包括中小微企業共同的努力，我們儘量把他們化為政策的照顧面，讓廣泛的大家能夠平均共享。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝！","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行預算報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時54分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}}