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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 920.769, \"end\": 920.909, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 920.909, \"end\": 921.069, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 921.069, \"end\": 921.169, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 921.169, \"end\": 921.409, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 921.409, \"end\": 921.55, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 921.55, \"end\": 922.271, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 922.271, \"end\": 922.671, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 922.671, \"end\": 922.791, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 922.791, \"end\": 922.912, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 922.912, \"end\": 923.052, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 923.052, \"end\": 923.312, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 923.312, \"end\": 923.332, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 964.056, \"end\": 967.222, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 967.222, \"end\": 967.362, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"揚\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 967.362, \"end\": 967.482, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 967.482, \"end\": 967.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 967.502, \"end\": 967.582, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 967.582, \"end\": 967.603, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,165 --> 00:00:09,651\n謝謝院長有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢部委員好卓院長大家辛苦了\n\n2\n00:00:21,943 --> 00:00:49,709\n一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景nolonger財政災難comingsoon\n\n3\n00:00:50,256 --> 00:00:54,161\n就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰\n\n4\n00:00:55,905 --> 00:01:21,008\n首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要\n\n5\n00:01:21,908 --> 00:01:42,717\n來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁\n\n6\n00:01:43,457 --> 00:02:09,906\n謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景nolonger財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待\n\n7\n00:02:11,038 --> 00:02:33,025\n您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對\n\n8\n00:02:34,505 --> 00:02:44,113\n弱勢者的照顧為何到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動\n\n9\n00:02:48,042 --> 00:03:04,959\n謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊\n\n10\n00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:24,212\n大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆\n\n11\n00:03:28,374 --> 00:03:43,784\n還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億\n\n12\n00:03:46,673 --> 00:04:13,703\n還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的\n\n13\n00:04:14,861 --> 00:04:30,214\n立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁\n\n14\n00:04:31,584 --> 00:04:46,836\n以這位黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的\n\n15\n00:04:47,316 --> 00:05:15,923\n委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例\n\n16\n00:05:17,524 --> 00:05:43,117\n僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎\n\n17\n00:05:46,778 --> 00:06:01,557\n為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見\n\n18\n00:06:03,298 --> 00:06:26,969\n擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生\n\n19\n00:06:29,028 --> 00:06:57,768\n造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我就一直要建立這樣的模式我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場\n\n20\n00:06:58,709 --> 00:07:20,557\n下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律\n\n21\n00:07:21,477 --> 00:07:43,550\n第四沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁\n\n22\n00:07:44,651 --> 00:07:50,749\n我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們\n\n23\n00:07:53,103 --> 00:08:18,306\n其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一\n\n24\n00:08:18,806 --> 00:08:42,932\n您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提\n\n25\n00:08:43,832 --> 00:09:07,940\n有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁\n\n26\n00:09:09,566 --> 00:09:18,656\n災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億\n\n27\n00:09:30,029 --> 00:09:57,030\n核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些事來首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報\n\n28\n00:09:58,891 --> 00:10:22,368\n如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動\n\n29\n00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:45,881\n包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁\n\n30\n00:10:46,929 --> 00:11:08,812\n教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了六千多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法\n\n31\n00:11:10,185 --> 00:11:26,567\n立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費只要靠中央補助就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了\n\n32\n00:11:27,136 --> 00:11:40,344\n所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行\n\n33\n00:11:41,124 --> 00:12:04,063\n就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及\n\n34\n00:12:04,964 --> 00:12:26,549\n科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好教科文看文化\n\n35\n00:12:27,589 --> 00:12:51,074\n文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁\n\n36\n00:12:51,894 --> 00:13:12,767\n荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安\n\n37\n00:13:16,549 --> 00:13:38,975\n國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎?下一頁\n\n38\n00:13:40,913 --> 00:14:02,990\n醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁\n\n39\n00:14:03,971 --> 00:14:24,125\n少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個\n\n40\n00:14:27,947 --> 00:14:47,546\n交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁\n\n41\n00:14:50,970 --> 00:15:06,089\n我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被二修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎\n\n42\n00:15:06,809 --> 00:15:23,332\n委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些\n\n43\n00:16:04,056 --> 00:16:07,603\n好謝謝吳思揚委員的指教\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5165\t9651\t謝謝院長 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢部委員好卓院長 大家辛苦了\n21943\t49709\t一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景no longer財政災難coming soon\n50256\t54161\t就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰\n55905\t81008\t首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要\n81908\t102717\t來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁\n103457\t129906\t謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景no longer財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待\n131038\t153025\t您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對\n154505\t164113\t弱勢者的照顧為何到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動\n168042\t184959\t謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊\n185620\t204212\t大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆\n208374\t223784\t還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億\n226673\t253703\t還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的\n254861\t270214\t立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁\n271584\t286836\t以這位黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的\n287316\t315923\t委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例\n317524\t343117\t僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎\n346778\t361557\t為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見\n363298\t386969\t擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生\n389028\t417768\t造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我就一直要建立這樣的模式我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場\n418709\t440557\t下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律\n441477\t463550\t第四沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁\n464651\t470749\t我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們\n473103\t498306\t其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一\n498806\t522932\t您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提\n523832\t547940\t有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁\n549566\t558656\t災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億\n570029\t597030\t核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些事來首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報\n598891\t622368\t如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動\n623709\t645881\t包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁\n646929\t668812\t教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了六千多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法\n670185\t686567\t立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費只要靠中央補助就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了\n687136\t700344\t所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行\n701124\t724063\t就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及\n724964\t746549\t科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好 教科文看文化\n747589\t771074\t文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁\n771894\t792767\t荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安\n796549\t818975\t國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎?下一頁\n820913\t842990\t醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁\n843971\t864125\t少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個\n867947\t887546\t交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁\n890970\t906089\t我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被二修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎\n906809\t923332\t委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些\n964056\t967603\t好謝謝吳思揚委員的指教\n","txt":"謝謝院長 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢部委員好卓院長 大家辛苦了\n一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景no longer財政災難coming soon\n就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰\n首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要\n來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁\n謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景no longer財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待\n您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對\n弱勢者的照顧為何到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動\n謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊\n大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆\n還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億\n還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的\n立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁\n以這位黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的\n委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例\n僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎\n為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見\n擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生\n造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我就一直要建立這樣的模式我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場\n下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律\n第四沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁\n我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們\n其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一\n您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提\n有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁\n災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億\n核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些事來首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報\n如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動\n包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁\n教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了六千多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法\n立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費只要靠中央補助就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了\n所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行\n就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及\n科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好 教科文看文化\n文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁\n荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安\n國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎?下一頁\n醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁\n少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個\n交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁\n我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被二修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎\n委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些\n好謝謝吳思揚委員的指教\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.165 --> 00:09.651\n謝謝院長有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢部委員好卓院長大家辛苦了\n\n00:21.943 --> 00:49.709\n一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景nolonger財政災難comingsoon\n\n00:50.256 --> 00:54.161\n就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰\n\n00:55.905 --> 01:21.008\n首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要\n\n01:21.908 --> 01:42.717\n來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁\n\n01:43.457 --> 02:09.906\n謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景nolonger財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待\n\n02:11.038 --> 02:33.025\n您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對\n\n02:34.505 --> 02:44.113\n弱勢者的照顧為何到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動\n\n02:48.042 --> 03:04.959\n謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊\n\n03:05.620 --> 03:24.212\n大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆\n\n03:28.374 --> 03:43.784\n還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億\n\n03:46.673 --> 04:13.703\n還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的\n\n04:14.861 --> 04:30.214\n立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁\n\n04:31.584 --> 04:46.836\n以這位黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的\n\n04:47.316 --> 05:15.923\n委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例\n\n05:17.524 --> 05:43.117\n僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎\n\n05:46.778 --> 06:01.557\n為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見\n\n06:03.298 --> 06:26.969\n擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生\n\n06:29.028 --> 06:57.768\n造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我就一直要建立這樣的模式我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場\n\n06:58.709 --> 07:20.557\n下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律\n\n07:21.477 --> 07:43.550\n第四沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁\n\n07:44.651 --> 07:50.749\n我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們\n\n07:53.103 --> 08:18.306\n其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一\n\n08:18.806 --> 08:42.932\n您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提\n\n08:43.832 --> 09:07.940\n有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁\n\n09:09.566 --> 09:18.656\n災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億\n\n09:30.029 --> 09:57.030\n核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些事來首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報\n\n09:58.891 --> 10:22.368\n如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動\n\n10:23.709 --> 10:45.881\n包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁\n\n10:46.929 --> 11:08.812\n教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了六千多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法\n\n11:10.185 --> 11:26.567\n立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費只要靠中央補助就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了\n\n11:27.136 --> 11:40.344\n所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行\n\n11:41.124 --> 12:04.063\n就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及\n\n12:04.964 --> 12:26.549\n科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好教科文看文化\n\n12:27.589 --> 12:51.074\n文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁\n\n12:51.894 --> 13:12.767\n荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安\n\n13:16.549 --> 13:38.975\n國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎?下一頁\n\n13:40.913 --> 14:02.990\n醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁\n\n14:03.971 --> 14:24.125\n少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個\n\n14:27.947 --> 14:47.546\n交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁\n\n14:50.970 --> 15:06.089\n我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被二修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎\n\n15:06.809 --> 15:23.332\n委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些\n\n16:04.056 --> 16:07.603\n好謝謝吳思揚委員的指教\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.165,"end":9.651,"text":"謝謝院長 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢部委員好卓院長 大家辛苦了"},{"start":21.943,"end":49.709,"text":"一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景no longer財政災難coming soon"},{"start":50.256,"end":54.161,"text":"就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰"},{"start":55.905,"end":81.008,"text":"首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要"},{"start":81.908,"end":102.717,"text":"來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁"},{"start":103.457,"end":129.906,"text":"謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景no longer財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待"},{"start":131.038,"end":153.025,"text":"您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對"},{"start":154.505,"end":164.113,"text":"弱勢者的照顧為何到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動"},{"start":168.042,"end":184.959,"text":"謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊"},{"start":185.62,"end":204.212,"text":"大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆"},{"start":208.374,"end":223.784,"text":"還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億"},{"start":226.673,"end":253.703,"text":"還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的"},{"start":254.861,"end":270.214,"text":"立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁"},{"start":271.584,"end":286.836,"text":"以這位黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的"},{"start":287.316,"end":315.923,"text":"委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例"},{"start":317.524,"end":343.117,"text":"僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎"},{"start":346.778,"end":361.557,"text":"為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見"},{"start":363.298,"end":386.969,"text":"擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生"},{"start":389.028,"end":417.768,"text":"造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我就一直要建立這樣的模式我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場"},{"start":418.709,"end":440.557,"text":"下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律"},{"start":441.477,"end":463.55,"text":"第四沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁"},{"start":464.651,"end":470.749,"text":"我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們"},{"start":473.103,"end":498.306,"text":"其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一"},{"start":498.806,"end":522.932,"text":"您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提"},{"start":523.832,"end":547.94,"text":"有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁"},{"start":549.566,"end":558.656,"text":"災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億"},{"start":570.029,"end":597.03,"text":"核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些事來首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報"},{"start":598.891,"end":622.368,"text":"如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動"},{"start":623.709,"end":645.881,"text":"包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁"},{"start":646.929,"end":668.812,"text":"教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了六千多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法"},{"start":670.185,"end":686.567,"text":"立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費只要靠中央補助就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了"},{"start":687.136,"end":700.344,"text":"所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行"},{"start":701.124,"end":724.063,"text":"就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及"},{"start":724.964,"end":746.549,"text":"科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好 教科文看文化"},{"start":747.589,"end":771.074,"text":"文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁"},{"start":771.894,"end":792.767,"text":"荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安"},{"start":796.549,"end":818.975,"text":"國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎?下一頁"},{"start":820.913,"end":842.99,"text":"醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁"},{"start":843.971,"end":864.125,"text":"少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個"},{"start":867.947,"end":887.546,"text":"交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁"},{"start":890.97,"end":906.089,"text":"我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被二修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎"},{"start":906.809,"end":923.332,"text":"委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些"},{"start":964.056,"end":967.603,"text":"好謝謝吳思揚委員的指教"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":92,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：卓院長，大家辛苦了。一次的質詢是15分鐘，但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時。我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話，我們在預算會期就預算論預算、就財政論財政，我們一起來當財政的精算師，而不是當政治的精算師。我今天就以「財政榮景no longer，財政災難coming soon」就教於您，這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰。","首先，我支持今天台電追加1,000億的預算，幾個關鍵字，我們以歲計賸餘的支應來追加，我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象，我們要控制物價、抑制通膨、穩定民生，所以透過這追加的1,000億，我們也要來協助台電改善它的財務，穩健台電的經營。而後，我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設，來強化電網的韌性，最終是全民受惠，我們的供電要無虞穩定，所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我們能夠用歲計賸餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政，經濟好、稅收豐，所以我們財政佳，如果我們這樣一個財政榮景no longer，財政榮景不再了，我們的財政災難很快就來了，我們必須嚴陣以待。您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果依照現在看到的幾個版本，對中央政府的預算大幅挪移到地方去，中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行，會到地方，如果跨縣市合作困難，中央政府在做很多對弱勢者的照顧會挪到地方去，地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求？我相信還需要再努力。更多我們長遠的計畫、新興的計畫更無法推動。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝院長，您已經破題了，您直接進入了財劃法的修正。首先，我分兩大面向，第一面向還不進入財劃法，我們現在馬上要面對的是，在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子，大家都想要當聖誕老公公，爭相提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案，用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權。我這邊秀出來的包括六大項一次性經費，有環島高鐵、國道六號，這種交通類就超過2兆；有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金，另外還有委員提案針對醫療、農村的部分，都是加碼再加碼，一次性的經費，透過委員提案就有3兆140億。還有一類是每年都要編列支出的，當中很大的一宗，就叫做反年改相關法案要復辟了，所以每年要擴大支出。委員提出來的提案有八大項，包括65歲的老人完全免健保，這些都是億來億去，好幾百億，這種每年都要編列支出，而以立法加碼的，高達2,340億，加起來就是一個財政無底洞，這些都可以計算數額，委員都寫在條文裡面。","在野黨委員提出來的錢坑、肉桶法案，沒有寫金額的更難以計算，總共有十四項，包括離島的、壯世代的、原住民的、勞工的、眷村的、兒童的，委員們都說要擴大照顧，但是加碼再加碼，動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出，造成財政大黑洞！我說的這部分是第一趴而已，還沒進入財劃法。","我要再次肯定11月7號行政、立法兩院的會談，院長您說是僅此一次，下不為例，就是針對原民禁伐補償的個案，我們確立了一個兩院共識，預算權是行政權的核心領域，換言之，我認為11月7號在您主持的兩院會談之後，我們等於對這些錢坑法案、肉桶法案，某種程度上是拿到了護身符跟保護傘，您認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下，一定要達到這樣的共識，亦即行政院制定、編列預算，立法院審議預算，互相尊重，如果有大幅的增加支出、歲出，一定要徵詢行政院意見，彌平資金來源、找出資金來源，甚至要進行相關修法。我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識，不過也謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力，跟大院朝野各黨團能夠在最後形成這樣的共識，而這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式，所以剛剛你說的這些法案，它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生，這樣造成的損失、傷害可能會降到最低，我們一直要建立這樣的模式。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也非常期待兩院的共識，在野黨的委員在爭相提出錢坑、肉桶法案的時候，都要謹記在心。我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後，在野黨委員對於這些肉桶法案都應當三思而後行，不要再重蹈覆轍，這是我們共同的立場。","第二個，我們財政的超級大核彈，就是財劃法，您剛剛已經優先破題了，為修而修、為快而快的財劃法，吳思瑤列出了我反對的四大理由：第一，分配不正義；第二，事權不統一；第三，財政沒有紀律；第四，沒有提出配套措施。如果要談財劃法，那麼對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併審視，所以這是我反對現在搶修財劃法的四大理由。","在此就教於院長，什麼是財政收支劃分法？你可不可以用非常簡單的兩、三句話告訴我們？"],["卓院長榮泰：其實它一個很重要的精神，就是地方自治，在地方制度裡的地方自治，以前我們講的都是權限的劃分，而沒有支出的劃分，如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分為前提，那麼支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提，如果能這樣的話，那地方該做什麼事、該給什麼樣的錢，就事、權都能夠合一，才能構成地方自治。"],["吳委員思瑤：您講得非常好，錢、權密不可分、不可切割，如果要錢下放，權也要下放，也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心，就是支出的劃分，支出的劃分又是要以收入的劃分來做前提，有收入就要支出，所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本，就是它不管錢花哪裡去，它只管錢往中央挖進來，這就是一個財政，它只是財政收入劃分法，它不是財政收支劃分法。災難來了，3分鐘通過的財劃法掏空國庫6,612億，中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅地縮為4,159億，如果扣除國防，可能就剩下一千多億，核心就像您剛說的，中央政府就沒有辦法運作，而地方搬了這麼多錢、挖了這麼多錢，地方可以執行這些事權嗎？","花一點時間跟您彙報我昨天整理到半夜、天亮的一些數目，首先，我是教科文領域出身的，我針對教科文來做很快的彙報，如果財劃法被在野黨搬走6,612億，教育的部分我先看高等教育，高教完全是中央教育部在做，不是地方政府，如果在高教的部分就有1,292億會受影響，包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動，包括本席爭取的擴大租金補貼、協助青年住校，也有租金補貼28億的預算，又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫，這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益，這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的。教育的部分我們來看看國教，國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關，但是就本席整理的，如果被地方挖走了六千多億，我們國教會有1,118億受到影響，國教的部分，譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法，立委提了好多版本，要求增加地方的專輔教師、輔諮中心，專輔人力人事費就要靠中央補助，就要32.6億，如果錢被財劃法搬走了，這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了，所以就教育的部分，如果國教1,118億受影響，那我們好好來把事權跟地方政府攤清楚，這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行，這是教育。","科技，教科文看科技，科技就是國家的國力，所以科技的部分，科技專項計畫有17項，科發基金有17項，加起來657.6億也會被財劃法大刀一揮之後受到波及。科技政策包括AI、包括我們的半導體、包括我們的太空產業現在全力地加速，要成為世界的供應商、供應鏈的重要一員，這些地方657.6億，地方政府能夠執行嗎？不可能。好，教科文看文化，文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術，從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產，到影視音的臺流計畫、黑潮計畫，包括文化禮金讓青少年有1年1,200塊去親近藝文，文化的部分有132.5億，地方有辦法去執行嗎？這是教科文，幸好憲法保障了教科文的15%，好理家在，財劃法惡修有憲法來保護教科文的經費，但是憲法有保障經費的只有教科文，其他沒有明定保障的項目，我現在講災難在這裡，治安國家的社會安全網，治安的打詐360億，食品安全43億，道路安全加起來也已經是超過三百多億，社會安全網加起來，這裡所有的社會安全網，食安、治安、道安到社安要911億，地方有辦法接回去做嗎？醫療、健康、健保絕對是中央的權責，我們有權也有責，所以健保財務協助方案今年編了192億，提升醫療服務品質200億，加起來健康臺灣我們要做392億，這些都是全國性的，地方有辦法執行嗎？","少子化政策有衛福部的，有勞動部的，還有剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來，其實加上教育部它是破千億的，地方沒有辦法來接手。防災治水是跨域性的，所以要中央來執行，有482億就中斷了。交通軌道，第一個，這個是跨域的公共建設，388億是交通部在協助地方的，如果被搬空，沒辦法做。最後，我們的前瞻、未來的軌道建設加起來將近三千億，這都只有中央能夠執行。","所以我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被惡修成財政收入劃分法，只搶錢不管權，這是國家的財政災難。院長，您都同意我的論述嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的憂心應該就是國家有識之士的憂心，剛剛說到我們中央還有4,159億，中間含了3,000億左右國防預算，換句話說，我們如果3,000億做國防，那這些都沒有辦法做；反過來，如果做了這些，那國防就落空了，我們不能做這種選擇。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們一定要把這些驚心動魄的事實真相告訴國人，如果在野黨繼續這樣惡修財劃法，他會讓財政收支劃分法變成財政收入劃分法，因為他只管搶錢，不管事權；他只管收入，不管支出，這是國家級的災難，我們一起來嚴正以待，我也期待韓院長能夠來調和鼎鼐，不要造成國家未來運作的失序跟失靈，我們一起加油！謝謝院長。"],["主席：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望經過合理的討論，有一個合理的結果，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、財政部長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記12號廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}}