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449.184, \"end\": 449.324, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 449.324, \"end\": 449.725, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 449.725, \"end\": 449.845, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 449.845, \"end\": 450.005, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 450.005, \"end\": 450.165, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"暴\", \"start\": 450.165, \"end\": 450.386, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 450.386, \"end\": 450.926, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 450.926, \"end\": 451.086, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 451.086, \"end\": 451.206, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 451.206, \"end\": 451.507, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"焚\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 451.507, \"end\": 451.787, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"爐\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 451.787, \"end\": 451.887, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 451.887, \"end\": 452.047, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 468.537, \"end\": 468.697, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 468.697, \"end\": 468.918, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 468.918, \"end\": 469.479, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 469.479, \"end\": 469.639, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 469.639, \"end\": 469.839, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 469.839, \"end\": 470.039, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 470.039, \"end\": 470.24, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 470.24, \"end\": 470.26, \"score\": 0.071}, {\"word\": \"澈\"}]}, {\"start\": 472.294, \"end\": 492.564, \"text\": \"數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 472.294, \"end\": 472.574, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 472.574, \"end\": 473.355, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 930.408, \"end\": 930.608, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 930.608, \"end\": 930.748, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 930.748, \"end\": 930.768, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 981.923, \"end\": 981.943, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:16,223 --> 00:00:20,449\n謝謝院長有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:30,257 --> 00:00:56,971\n調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭\n\n3\n00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:27,036\n同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢\n\n4\n00:01:30,482 --> 00:01:55,370\n我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯喔怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼\n\n5\n00:01:57,445 --> 00:02:22,527\n台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照\n\n6\n00:02:26,073 --> 00:02:46,122\n資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%那這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動那這樣子怎麼對得起這個繳稅的人民\n\n7\n00:02:54,039 --> 00:03:09,227\n那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益\n\n8\n00:03:11,388 --> 00:03:32,848\n再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡\n\n9\n00:03:34,150 --> 00:03:45,272\n請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎\n\n10\n00:03:46,794 --> 00:04:07,426\n台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外自傳費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實\n\n11\n00:04:08,612 --> 00:04:35,302\n不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單\n\n12\n00:04:36,842 --> 00:05:00,943\n這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來\n\n13\n00:05:01,784 --> 00:05:11,820\n早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?\n\n14\n00:05:12,406 --> 00:05:33,929\n完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前\n\n15\n00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:50,483\n那是哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我剛才講的無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊我們\n\n16\n00:05:53,601 --> 00:06:08,572\n這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們\n\n17\n00:06:11,394 --> 00:06:22,723\n因為如果沒有撥給我們的話我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億\n\n18\n00:06:25,077 --> 00:06:49,933\n來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用廢發電\n\n19\n00:06:51,465 --> 00:07:08,162\n那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎\n\n20\n00:07:12,026 --> 00:07:32,648\n空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有這很多樣我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎\n\n21\n00:07:35,438 --> 00:07:50,260\n焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講了這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈\n\n22\n00:07:52,294 --> 00:08:12,564\n數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%\n\n23\n00:08:15,526 --> 00:08:31,126\n所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力\n\n24\n00:08:33,369 --> 00:08:53,477\n請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔\n\n25\n00:08:54,177 --> 00:09:17,944\n這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料是不是有把它標準化我剛剛全部都講給你聽阿他這個是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦我剛剛就已經拿給你看阿上面數字很清楚阿那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這是改版了之後亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑阿\n\n26\n00:09:23,171 --> 00:09:40,223\n好,事實的數據更清楚地顯示你剛剛說到污染源嘛中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%\n\n27\n00:09:44,622 --> 00:10:13,023\n那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎院長臺中火力發電廠的存在但是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以院長我最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做我要跟你討論這個\n\n28\n00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:42,164\n中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個增一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電所建議\n\n29\n00:10:43,615 --> 00:11:11,778\n建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成真四氣拆兩煤\n\n30\n00:11:12,731 --> 00:11:20,335\n剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5部燃煤機組\n\n31\n00:11:21,684 --> 00:11:43,183\n委員你這樣子是不是有錯你這樣是不是形同跳票2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個中國的總量啊那個燃煤機組他一次就是拆兩煤兩個是連在一起的所以我現在要告訴你說你二期你二期你增了四座然後你只採了兩個對啦讓我說一下2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組\n\n32\n00:11:47,066 --> 00:12:02,133\n所以也會拆掉兩個藍莓機組但是另外兩個藍莓機組馬上轉成備用院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組就不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候\n\n33\n00:12:03,117 --> 00:12:18,392\n第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那接下來就會拆除二、三一年就會拆除環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長\n\n34\n00:12:22,019 --> 00:12:44,812\n2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了那你現在是整一期拆0.5枚沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把兩部另外兩部變為備用那你現在到底是拆你現在有說你會你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在承諾換個嗎\n\n35\n00:12:48,137 --> 00:13:04,159\n日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛\n\n36\n00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,261\n即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸\n\n37\n00:13:23,789 --> 00:13:44,890\n對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣\n\n38\n00:13:46,687 --> 00:14:03,923\n增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊報告委員我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少好我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面\n\n39\n00:14:06,685 --> 00:14:29,586\n一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時\n\n40\n00:14:32,208 --> 00:14:44,654\n這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的\n\n41\n00:14:46,189 --> 00:15:15,695\n他這不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的\n\n42\n00:15:16,155 --> 00:15:30,768\n那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎\n\n43\n00:16:21,923 --> 00:16:21,943\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16223\t20449\t謝謝院長 有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n30257\t56971\t調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭\n58360\t87036\t同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢\n90482\t115370\t我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯喔怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼\n117445\t142527\t台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好 那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照\n146073\t166122\t資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%那這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動那這樣子怎麼對得起這個繳稅的人民\n174039\t189227\t那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益\n191388\t212848\t再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡\n214150\t225272\t請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎\n226794\t247426\t台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外自傳費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實\n248612\t275302\t不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單\n276842\t300943\t這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來\n301784\t311820\t早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?\n312406\t333929\t完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前\n334810\t350483\t那是哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我剛才講的無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊我們\n353601\t368572\t這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們\n371394\t382723\t因為如果沒有撥給我們的話我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億\n385077\t409933\t來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用廢發電\n411465\t428162\t那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎\n432026\t452648\t空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有這很多樣我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎\n455438\t470260\t焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講了這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈\n472294\t492564\t數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%\n495526\t511126\t所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力\n513369\t533477\t請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔\n534177\t557944\t這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料是不是有把它標準化我剛剛全部都講給你聽阿他這個是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦我剛剛就已經拿給你看阿上面數字很清楚阿那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這是改版了之後亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑阿\n563171\t580223\t好,事實的數據更清楚地顯示你剛剛說到污染源嘛中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%\n584622\t613023\t那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎院長臺中火力發電廠的存在但是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以院長我最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做我要跟你討論這個\n614670\t642164\t中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個增一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電所建議\n643615\t671778\t建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成真四氣拆兩煤\n672731\t680335\t剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5部燃煤機組\n681684\t703183\t委員你這樣子是不是有錯你這樣是不是形同跳票2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個中國的總量啊那個燃煤機組他一次就是拆兩煤兩個是連在一起的所以我現在要告訴你說你二期你二期你增了四座然後你只採了兩個對啦讓我說一下2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組\n707066\t722133\t所以也會拆掉兩個藍莓機組但是另外兩個藍莓機組馬上轉成備用院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組就不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候\n723117\t738392\t第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那接下來就會拆除二、三一年就會拆除環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長\n742019\t764812\t2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了那你現在是整一期拆0.5枚沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把兩部另外兩部變為備用那你現在到底是拆你現在有說你會你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在承諾換個嗎\n768137\t784159\t日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛\n785100\t788261\t即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸\n803789\t824890\t對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣\n826687\t843923\t增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊報告委員我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少好我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面\n846685\t869586\t一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時\n872208\t884654\t這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的\n886189\t915695\t他這不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的\n916155\t930768\t那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎\n981923\t981943\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝院長 有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭\n同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢\n我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯喔怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼\n台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好 那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照\n資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%那這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動那這樣子怎麼對得起這個繳稅的人民\n那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益\n再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡\n請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎\n台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外自傳費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實\n不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單\n這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來\n早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?\n完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前\n那是哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我剛才講的無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊我們\n這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們\n因為如果沒有撥給我們的話我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億\n來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用廢發電\n那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎\n空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有這很多樣我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎\n焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講了這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈\n數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%\n所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力\n請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔\n這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料是不是有把它標準化我剛剛全部都講給你聽阿他這個是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦我剛剛就已經拿給你看阿上面數字很清楚阿那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這是改版了之後亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑阿\n好,事實的數據更清楚地顯示你剛剛說到污染源嘛中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%\n那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎院長臺中火力發電廠的存在但是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以院長我最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做我要跟你討論這個\n中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個增一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電所建議\n建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成真四氣拆兩煤\n剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5部燃煤機組\n委員你這樣子是不是有錯你這樣是不是形同跳票2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個中國的總量啊那個燃煤機組他一次就是拆兩煤兩個是連在一起的所以我現在要告訴你說你二期你二期你增了四座然後你只採了兩個對啦讓我說一下2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組\n所以也會拆掉兩個藍莓機組但是另外兩個藍莓機組馬上轉成備用院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組就不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候\n第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那接下來就會拆除二、三一年就會拆除環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長\n2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了那你現在是整一期拆0.5枚沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把兩部另外兩部變為備用那你現在到底是拆你現在有說你會你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在承諾換個嗎\n日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛\n即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸\n對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣\n增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊報告委員我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少好我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面\n一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時\n這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的\n他這不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的\n那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.223 --> 00:20.449\n謝謝院長有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:30.257 --> 00:56.971\n調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭\n\n00:58.360 --> 01:27.036\n同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢\n\n01:30.482 --> 01:55.370\n我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯喔怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼\n\n01:57.445 --> 02:22.527\n台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照\n\n02:26.073 --> 02:46.122\n資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%那這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動那這樣子怎麼對得起這個繳稅的人民\n\n02:54.039 --> 03:09.227\n那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益\n\n03:11.388 --> 03:32.848\n再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡\n\n03:34.150 --> 03:45.272\n請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎\n\n03:46.794 --> 04:07.426\n台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外自傳費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實\n\n04:08.612 --> 04:35.302\n不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單\n\n04:36.842 --> 05:00.943\n這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來\n\n05:01.784 --> 05:11.820\n早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?\n\n05:12.406 --> 05:33.929\n完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前\n\n05:34.810 --> 05:50.483\n那是哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我剛才講的無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊我們\n\n05:53.601 --> 06:08.572\n這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們\n\n06:11.394 --> 06:22.723\n因為如果沒有撥給我們的話我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億\n\n06:25.077 --> 06:49.933\n來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用廢發電\n\n06:51.465 --> 07:08.162\n那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎\n\n07:12.026 --> 07:32.648\n空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有這很多樣我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎\n\n07:35.438 --> 07:50.260\n焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講了這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈\n\n07:52.294 --> 08:12.564\n數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%\n\n08:15.526 --> 08:31.126\n所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力\n\n08:33.369 --> 08:53.477\n請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔\n\n08:54.177 --> 09:17.944\n這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料是不是有把它標準化我剛剛全部都講給你聽阿他這個是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦我剛剛就已經拿給你看阿上面數字很清楚阿那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這是改版了之後亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑阿\n\n09:23.171 --> 09:40.223\n好,事實的數據更清楚地顯示你剛剛說到污染源嘛中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%\n\n09:44.622 --> 10:13.023\n那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎院長臺中火力發電廠的存在但是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以院長我最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做我要跟你討論這個\n\n10:14.670 --> 10:42.164\n中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個增一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電所建議\n\n10:43.615 --> 11:11.778\n建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成真四氣拆兩煤\n\n11:12.731 --> 11:20.335\n剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5部燃煤機組\n\n11:21.684 --> 11:43.183\n委員你這樣子是不是有錯你這樣是不是形同跳票2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個中國的總量啊那個燃煤機組他一次就是拆兩煤兩個是連在一起的所以我現在要告訴你說你二期你二期你增了四座然後你只採了兩個對啦讓我說一下2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組\n\n11:47.066 --> 12:02.133\n所以也會拆掉兩個藍莓機組但是另外兩個藍莓機組馬上轉成備用院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組就不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候\n\n12:03.117 --> 12:18.392\n第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那接下來就會拆除二、三一年就會拆除環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長\n\n12:22.019 --> 12:44.812\n2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了那你現在是整一期拆0.5枚沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把兩部另外兩部變為備用那你現在到底是拆你現在有說你會你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在承諾換個嗎\n\n12:48.137 --> 13:04.159\n日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛\n\n13:05.100 --> 13:08.261\n即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸\n\n13:23.789 --> 13:44.890\n對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣\n\n13:46.687 --> 14:03.923\n增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊報告委員我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少好我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面\n\n14:06.685 --> 14:29.586\n一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時\n\n14:32.208 --> 14:44.654\n這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的\n\n14:46.189 --> 15:15.695\n他這不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的\n\n15:16.155 --> 15:30.768\n那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎\n\n16:21.923 --> 16:21.943\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.223,"end":20.449,"text":"謝謝院長 有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30.257,"end":56.971,"text":"調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭"},{"start":58.36,"end":87.036,"text":"同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢"},{"start":90.482,"end":115.37,"text":"我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯喔怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼"},{"start":117.445,"end":142.527,"text":"台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好 那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照"},{"start":146.073,"end":166.122,"text":"資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%那這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動那這樣子怎麼對得起這個繳稅的人民"},{"start":174.039,"end":189.227,"text":"那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益"},{"start":191.388,"end":212.848,"text":"再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡"},{"start":214.15,"end":225.272,"text":"請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎"},{"start":226.794,"end":247.426,"text":"台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外自傳費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實"},{"start":248.612,"end":275.302,"text":"不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單"},{"start":276.842,"end":300.943,"text":"這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":301.784,"end":311.82,"text":"早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?"},{"start":312.406,"end":333.929,"text":"完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前"},{"start":334.81,"end":350.483,"text":"那是哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我剛才講的無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他能規劃在裡面啊我們"},{"start":353.601,"end":368.572,"text":"這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們"},{"start":371.394,"end":382.723,"text":"因為如果沒有撥給我們的話我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億"},{"start":385.077,"end":409.933,"text":"來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用廢發電"},{"start":411.465,"end":428.162,"text":"那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎"},{"start":432.026,"end":452.648,"text":"空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有這很多樣我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎"},{"start":455.438,"end":470.26,"text":"焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講了這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈"},{"start":472.294,"end":492.564,"text":"數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%"},{"start":495.526,"end":511.126,"text":"所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力"},{"start":513.369,"end":533.477,"text":"請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔"},{"start":534.177,"end":557.944,"text":"這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料是不是有把它標準化我剛剛全部都講給你聽阿他這個是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦我剛剛就已經拿給你看阿上面數字很清楚阿那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這是改版了之後亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑阿"},{"start":563.171,"end":580.223,"text":"好,事實的數據更清楚地顯示你剛剛說到污染源嘛中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%"},{"start":584.622,"end":613.023,"text":"那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎院長臺中火力發電廠的存在但是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以院長我最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做我要跟你討論這個"},{"start":614.67,"end":642.164,"text":"中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個增一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電所建議"},{"start":643.615,"end":671.778,"text":"建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成真四氣拆兩煤"},{"start":672.731,"end":680.335,"text":"剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5部燃煤機組"},{"start":681.684,"end":703.183,"text":"委員你這樣子是不是有錯你這樣是不是形同跳票2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個中國的總量啊那個燃煤機組他一次就是拆兩煤兩個是連在一起的所以我現在要告訴你說你二期你二期你增了四座然後你只採了兩個對啦讓我說一下2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組"},{"start":707.066,"end":722.133,"text":"所以也會拆掉兩個藍莓機組但是另外兩個藍莓機組馬上轉成備用院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組就不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候"},{"start":723.117,"end":738.392,"text":"第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那接下來就會拆除二、三一年就會拆除環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長"},{"start":742.019,"end":764.812,"text":"2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了那你現在是整一期拆0.5枚沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把兩部另外兩部變為備用那你現在到底是拆你現在有說你會你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在承諾換個嗎"},{"start":768.137,"end":784.159,"text":"日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛"},{"start":785.1,"end":788.261,"text":"即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸"},{"start":803.789,"end":824.89,"text":"對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣"},{"start":826.687,"end":843.923,"text":"增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊報告委員我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少好我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面"},{"start":846.685,"end":869.586,"text":"一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時"},{"start":872.208,"end":884.654,"text":"這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的"},{"start":886.189,"end":915.695,"text":"他這不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的"},{"start":916.155,"end":930.768,"text":"那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":981.923,"end":981.943,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（15時3分）謝謝院長，有請行政院長卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長好。院長，政府這三年間在電的上面已經是掏空國庫，還讓人民買單，對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到5,000億，如果說從經濟部增資1,500億，疫後特別撥補500億，然後到今年再增資1,000億，然後追加1,000億，明年再1,000億，這彷彿是在告訴我們，台電變成了一口無底潭。同時，台電這三年間也不斷漲電價，民生電價漲了30.4%，工業電價更是驚人的66%，這個情況就像是一個破洞的水桶，民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走，還要負擔修補破洞的費用。請問一下院長，按照台電的各種發電成本，哪種發電形式是賺錢的？我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化，至少讓台電不再虧損呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能不能不要用「掏空」兩個字，因為每筆的支出，不管是增資或是補貼，都是經過大院的審議，這是經過法律程序。再來，我們電價有漲，但是跟我們相鄰國家相比較，我們電價還是比較便宜。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，很明顯，怎麼賣電怎麼虧，未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民漲電價，右手跟人民拿稅金補貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：台電虧損的原因，我們早上報告以及諸多委員的垂詢，我們都答復了，我們就是沒有辦法反映成本，今年10月份用電大戶才幾乎反映成本，但民生電價還是有1塊錢以上的差距。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，你的報告大概寫的都是這樣啦。除了虧損之外，台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心，坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採，這真的是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照，資料顯示，台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大，共166件、301筆，面積達27.7萬平方公尺，其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件、90筆，面積達4.2萬平方公尺，占比超過15%，這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動，這樣怎麼對得起繳稅的人民？在節流的部分，再看一下節流的部分，開源有問題，節流的部分更讓人家憤怒，三年間因為卸貨延遲，支付滯船費高達30億元，這筆費用比燃煤還要昂貴，卻沒有為發電帶來任何效益；再來是物料存貨，物料購入後時間久遠，缺乏防護或處理，導致報廢，今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億，增幅達167.56%，基本上，這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉，最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡。請問院長，剛剛講了這麼多，就是要說台電既不開源也不節流，卻持續向人民漲電價、向政府要補貼，跟人民的稅金要補貼，你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：台電的財產重估討論了很多年、很多次，都沒辦法進行，我認為這是一個可討論的議題。另外，滯船費有種種的因素，現在據台電內部的報告，他們已經大幅降低這種風險。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我要說的是上面這一切的不開源、不節流，還不斷跟人民要錢，我其實不想要再追問是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算，因為其實答案蠻明顯的，院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為國際情勢變化很多，但是我們一定……"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！就是不敢保證嘛，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定極力地穩定民生跟物價。"],["廖委員偉翔：我跟你講，只要能源政策和發電結構不改，台電就繼續兩頭燒、吃兩頭哦！我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題，而人民要持續地被迫買單，這樣的無底潭到底什麼時候才可以填滿？請問院長，你上次跟部長在備詢的時候，有承諾要給牛委員台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型，結果只給了他不到一千字，所以一字一億啊，超過一字千金嘛！我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上部長有答復過，我覺得那是一個初期的報告，真的財務規劃不會那麼地簡要。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我要問完整的什麼時候可以出來，到底什麼時候可以出來？"],["郭部長智輝：完整的報告，這個要再整理一下，因為對於未來的預估，我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，要多少時間？我只想要知道大概要多少時間？或是可不可以承諾什麼時間？"],["郭部長智輝：應該年底可以給各位。"],["廖委員偉翔：年底可以給未來四年的財務模型、財務規劃，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，請你記得年底，是12月底前的哪一個時間？有具體時間嗎？還是今年一定會給？"],["郭部長智輝：就是今年底嘛。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是還有一個條件，預算要過，它才能規劃在裡面啊。"],["廖委員偉翔：不是，你當然也要給規劃，不然你這樣補到什麼時候？我剛才已經講了，無底洞！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個預算要過啊，明年的預算要過，它才能夠規劃在裡面啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：你當然要先去模擬嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我相信你要的是非常精準的……"],["廖委員偉翔：精準，然後預估，以及如果照你們的計畫改善，未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們大概推論都會推論說，大院會同意把撥補的給我們嘛，因為如果沒有撥給我們的話，我們很難去推啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我只是要問你，你就是要給這個財務規劃，你剛剛已經說年底要給，請到時候務必交出來，不要再像今天一樣，好像給了一千個字就要一千億啊。","院長，前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳，環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈，胸腔科的醫生甚至形容：出門抬頭一看，灰濛濛的，天空彷彿是沉默之丘在臺灣真實上演。所以對大臺中的市民朋友們來說，不僅要忍受電價上漲，還要忍受用肺發電，這種情況你覺得合理嗎？","日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱，大臺中的空污總量上升了3%，該委員還說其他污染源暴增，尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%。請問院長，你認同這種說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於空氣污染的來源，委員跟我都清楚有很多來源，包括移動污染源、包括外來的污染源、包括我們工業的污染都有，非常多樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我問您，您認同剛剛我提到民進黨委員的說法嗎？他說臺中的空污總量上升了3%、污染源暴增，尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%，請問你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解，到底焚化爐上漲48%這個數據跟現況是如何。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我跟你講，這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段！根據環境部的空氣污染物排放清冊，數據其實是這樣：11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟后里2座焚化廠，總量是641噸；結果到了12版的時候加入烏日焚化廠，3座加起來944噸。該委員拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%，事實上，如果兩個版本統一標準算起來的話，其實還減少了15噸，所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑、數字魔術，亂湊一通，抹黑臺中市政府的努力！請問院長，這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明，它都一定有它的邏輯，那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列……"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛我已經講給你聽了。"],["卓院長榮泰：那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的？我真的不清楚，我要再進一步去探詢這個原因。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛講解這麼清楚，你還是不清楚喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：你講的是一個數字嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：這部分就是研究的方法跟索取的資料是不是有把它標準化，才能夠……"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛已經講完了，我剛剛全部都講給你聽啊，他這個是用2座跟3座亂比嘛！對吧，你現在不敢承認！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有看到全部啦，如果說……"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛就已經拿給你看了，上面數字很清楚啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那為什麼沒有紀錄或是後來為什麼增加，這部分一定有原因的！"],["廖委員偉翔：這個就是改版之後亂用數字、亂比較、亂抹黑！","事實的數據更清楚的顯示，你剛剛說到污染源，中火的空污排放是15萬6,522噸，占大臺中空污總量的60%，臺中三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸，這個占比就是4.3%，換句話說，中火的排放量還是焚化爐的十六倍多，這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明臺中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中火力發電廠的存在是一個事實，它也有一定量的排放，但過去這幾年來，我們空污削減已經將近七成，這個還是持續在努力，我們最近希望以氣換煤的工作一直在做。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，院長，我要跟你討論這個，中火一期的時候新增了2部各130萬瓩的燃氣機組，1部的燃氣機組都超過2部的燃煤機組，而且還要更多，按照這樣的發電效率，實行增1氣拆2煤用容量來看也都合情合理，也是可行的方案。院長，甚至這裡有一份環保署曾經發文給台電的建議，建議這樣的容量應該是可以1氣拆2煤的，在一期的環評報告中，環保署也曾經明確要求台電應於新燃氣機組運轉後，等同發電量的4部燃煤機組必須除役、拆除而非轉為備用；但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成增4氣拆2煤，剩下的6部燃煤機組還要轉為備用，這等於是增1氣拆0.5部燃煤機組啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是！委員，你這樣的數字有錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：你這樣是不是形同跳票？"],["卓院長榮泰：2025、2026會各增加1個氣……"],["廖委員偉翔：我說總量，我現在跟你講整個中火的總量啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：燃煤機組一次就是拆2煤，2個是連在一起的，所以2025……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我現在告訴你，二期增了4座，然後你只裁了2個。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啦！讓我說一下，2025、2026各會增加一個燃氣機組，所以也會拆掉2個燃煤機組，但是另外2個燃煤機組馬上轉成備用……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，那個東西很清楚，我繼續講下去……"],["卓院長榮泰：馬上轉成備用，等於是4個燃煤機組都不發電……"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛已經說了，之前就已經說過，第一期的時候環保署就有建議不要轉為備用，而是要拆除，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：接下來就會拆除，2031年就會拆除。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛就拿了這個東西，就已經講給你聽了，環保署比現在的環境部還要更加在意我們的環境啊，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：2031、2032也會拆除2個，所以我們到了……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，你基本上就是跳票嘛！增1氣拆1煤，你現在是增1氣拆0.5煤喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們到了2032的時候會增加4部燃氣機組，也會拆掉4部的燃煤機組，把另外2部變為備用。"],["廖委員偉翔：你現在總共6部天然氣嘛？那你要拆6組燃煤機組嗎？你現在要承諾那個嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：日前的環評是拆4部燃煤機組，在6部完成的時候，是拆4部燃煤機組，所以我那天到臺中是說我們到2032年，第4部燃氣機組完成的時候，我們可以檢討後面的6部……"],["廖委員偉翔：可以檢討，但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：後面的6部，我們如果有……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會檢討拆不拆嘛……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我繼續，我跟你講，現在我時間不夠，我時間快不夠，我還有很多問題想要問你，即便現在中火一期完成並商轉，也只能夠減少空污排放量69噸，對比中火的總排放量，只減排了0.8%，換句話說，這個不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎？更何況到115年的時候，12月還有中佳的燃氣電廠要商轉，再加上中火的2部燃氣機組，一共增加了321萬瓩的燃氣，那增加了這麼多，卻沒有給出具體的減排碳時程，這樣子避而不談，什麼時候會有具體的時程？"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！我們時程都寫得很清楚啊！具體的都規劃出來了……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們應該是去檢視碳排量有多少，剩下有多少，而不是用量來混淆說法……"],["廖委員偉翔：我再繼續講一個，你們的環評報告裡面、一期的結論裡面有說到後續應辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件，包括空氣品質AQI必須小於等於100，最多啟用2部，累積時數不可以超過240個小時，燃氣、燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10部。但是今年10月30號的二期環評裡面，這些條件都不見了，而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時，這不就是意味著一期的和二期的……一看就知道二期在放水，對不對？什麼時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是備用機組的條件，除了國安、除了特定的狀況之外，它是不會啟動的。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我跟你講，綜合以上，你們在跳票的過程，你們其實……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有跳票，完全依照……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們說有國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候，你們是不是就可以啟用？"],["卓院長榮泰：它還是增1氣拆1煤，是這樣在處理的。"],["廖委員偉翔：而且你們也有說到那720個小時，你是說開啟用720個小時以內，只要通知地方政府就好，超過的是要他們同意，你還要綁著他們同意，那代表就是你不拆，未來都還是持續有可能會啟用，你沒有辦法保證。"],["卓院長榮泰：它是有條件限制的，如果6個燃氣機組都順利的完成，它當然有另外討論的空間，這是我當天的承諾。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我問你，你剛剛說國安問題是不是在模仿德國在俄烏戰爭下，燃氣短缺的對策，所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量，你懂我意思嗎？我問你是不是把燃煤機組留著，就是在參考俄烏戰爭的時候，你擔心有國安風險、有戰爭疑慮的時候是嗎？還有突然決定你可以開始用嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：備用不只單指國安的因素，還有其他的因素，而且受到限制，不會輕易的啟動。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，你如果說不會輕易啟動的話，那我們就來修法，只有總統發布緊急命令的時候，可以啟動燃煤備用機組，這樣你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個應該考慮到現實的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：它現在已經有備用，就是環評委員在這個情況底下，把它備用，卻又把它更改的話，我想對環評的專業……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我一定要幹這個事情，請你好好履行承諾，不要突然缺電，又把它開啟。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會遵照這樣的說法，兌現到對臺中的承諾。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員，時間已到。謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第13號李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}}