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\"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,472 --> 00:00:31,402\n主席謝謝麻煩請張欣代理主委請張代理主委好主委好委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員\n\n2\n00:00:33,203 --> 00:01:00,531\n到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息我想這部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道是說我們這個明年的預算\n\n3\n00:01:01,714 --> 00:01:03,462\n是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊?\n\n4\n00:01:05,463 --> 00:01:33,915\n報告委員因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看\n\n5\n00:01:35,107 --> 00:01:56,961\n報告主委,在我們的組織法的話,在我們的組織法,其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候,就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委,所以我就在你執行這個業務。那既然代理執行這個業務,當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責。\n\n6\n00:01:59,382 --> 00:02:22,909\n議法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持好啦負責啦本期也講是說我們這個相關核安會齁其實就是要把核能安全給做好並且也要負責而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府來做參考或是說做判斷啦國際的趨勢現在COP29\n\n7\n00:02:26,370 --> 00:02:52,902\n在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言2050的時候希望說核能發電能夠達到現在目前的三倍那美國氣候的代表在會中也講說美國的核能捲土重來是進行式更不要講是說Amazon或是Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或說購買核電的一個打算所以我想\n\n8\n00:02:54,414 --> 00:03:16,045\n代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看\n\n9\n00:03:17,877 --> 00:03:42,192\n報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府\n\n10\n00:03:43,573 --> 00:03:52,809\n好,那又要又不要,等於走到四半走到八我們總統太院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能\n\n11\n00:03:54,025 --> 00:03:58,686\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預\n\n12\n00:04:14,949 --> 00:04:30,364\n所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是\n\n13\n00:04:32,332 --> 00:04:50,048\n根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。\n\n14\n00:04:50,769 --> 00:05:05,574\n但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動經過所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復\n\n15\n00:05:12,856 --> 00:05:35,145\n但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位\n\n16\n00:05:35,965 --> 00:05:45,660\n我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年\n\n17\n00:05:46,598 --> 00:06:11,647\n跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估\n\n18\n00:06:15,389 --> 00:06:38,831\n我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在念跳文本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法院的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢\n\n19\n00:06:40,441 --> 00:06:59,982\n我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎\n\n20\n00:07:02,574 --> 00:07:16,867\n有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望\n\n21\n00:07:18,943 --> 00:07:40,044\n委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請\n\n22\n00:07:40,925 --> 00:08:09,240\n所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且\n\n23\n00:08:10,180 --> 00:08:31,261\n請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳\n\n24\n00:08:32,282 --> 00:08:49,455\n所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候\n\n25\n00:08:51,556 --> 00:09:19,383\n核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎\n\n26\n00:09:21,744 --> 00:09:45,419\n所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教了卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能\n\n27\n00:09:47,186 --> 00:10:06,002\n應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長\n\n28\n00:10:07,998 --> 00:10:23,455\n那所以換言之卓鴻泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一核二核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳\n\n29\n00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:49,944\n或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告啊我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算\n\n30\n00:10:53,510 --> 00:11:16,297\n一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝\n\n31\n00:11:18,066 --> 00:11:45,016\n本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜\n\n32\n00:11:45,697 --> 00:11:53,590\n臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2472\t31402\t主席謝謝麻煩請張欣代理主委請張代理主委好主委好委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員\n33203\t60531\t到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息我想這部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道是說我們這個明年的預算\n61714\t63462\t是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊?\n65463\t93915\t報告委員因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看\n95107\t116961\t報告主委,在我們的組織法的話,在我們的組織法,其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候,就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委,所以我就在你執行這個業務。那既然代理執行這個業務,當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責。\n119382\t142909\t議法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持好啦負責啦本期也講是說我們這個相關核安會齁其實就是要把核能安全給做好並且也要負責而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府來做參考或是說做判斷啦國際的趨勢現在COP29\n146370\t172902\t在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言2050的時候希望說核能發電能夠達到現在目前的三倍那美國氣候的代表在會中也講說美國的核能捲土重來是進行式更不要講是說Amazon或是Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或說購買核電的一個打算所以我想\n174414\t196045\t代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看\n197877\t222192\t報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府\n223573\t232809\t好,那又要又不要,等於走到四半走到八我們總統太院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能\n234025\t238686\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預\n254949\t270364\t所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是\n272332\t290048\t根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。\n290769\t305574\t但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動經過所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復\n312856\t335145\t但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位\n335965\t345660\t我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年\n346598\t371647\t跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估\n375389\t398831\t我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在念跳文本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法院的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢\n400441\t419982\t我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎\n422574\t436867\t有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望\n438943\t460044\t委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請\n460925\t489240\t所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且\n490180\t511261\t請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳\n512282\t529455\t所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候\n531556\t559383\t核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎\n561744\t585419\t所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教了卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能\n587186\t606002\t應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長\n607998\t623455\t那所以換言之卓鴻泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一核二核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳\n623956\t649944\t或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告啊我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算\n653510\t676297\t一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝\n678066\t705016\t本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜\n705697\t713590\t臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請張欣代理主委請張代理主委好主委好委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員\n到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息我想這部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道是說我們這個明年的預算\n是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊?\n報告委員因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看\n報告主委,在我們的組織法的話,在我們的組織法,其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候,就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委,所以我就在你執行這個業務。那既然代理執行這個業務,當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責。\n議法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持好啦負責啦本期也講是說我們這個相關核安會齁其實就是要把核能安全給做好並且也要負責而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府來做參考或是說做判斷啦國際的趨勢現在COP29\n在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言2050的時候希望說核能發電能夠達到現在目前的三倍那美國氣候的代表在會中也講說美國的核能捲土重來是進行式更不要講是說Amazon或是Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或說購買核電的一個打算所以我想\n代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看\n報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府\n好,那又要又不要,等於走到四半走到八我們總統太院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預\n所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是\n根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。\n但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動經過所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復\n但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位\n我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年\n跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估\n我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在念跳文本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法院的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢\n我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎\n有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望\n委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請\n所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且\n請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳\n所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候\n核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎\n所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教了卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能\n應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長\n那所以換言之卓鴻泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一核二核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳\n或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告啊我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算\n一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝\n本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜\n臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.472 --> 00:31.402\n主席謝謝麻煩請張欣代理主委請張代理主委好主委好委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員\n\n00:33.203 --> 01:00.531\n到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息我想這部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道是說我們這個明年的預算\n\n01:01.714 --> 01:03.462\n是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊?\n\n01:05.463 --> 01:33.915\n報告委員因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看\n\n01:35.107 --> 01:56.961\n報告主委,在我們的組織法的話,在我們的組織法,其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候,就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委,所以我就在你執行這個業務。那既然代理執行這個業務,當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責。\n\n01:59.382 --> 02:22.909\n議法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持好啦負責啦本期也講是說我們這個相關核安會齁其實就是要把核能安全給做好並且也要負責而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府來做參考或是說做判斷啦國際的趨勢現在COP29\n\n02:26.370 --> 02:52.902\n在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言2050的時候希望說核能發電能夠達到現在目前的三倍那美國氣候的代表在會中也講說美國的核能捲土重來是進行式更不要講是說Amazon或是Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或說購買核電的一個打算所以我想\n\n02:54.414 --> 03:16.045\n代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看\n\n03:17.877 --> 03:42.192\n報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府\n\n03:43.573 --> 03:52.809\n好,那又要又不要,等於走到四半走到八我們總統太院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能\n\n03:54.025 --> 03:58.686\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預\n\n04:14.949 --> 04:30.364\n所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是\n\n04:32.332 --> 04:50.048\n根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。\n\n04:50.769 --> 05:05.574\n但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動經過所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復\n\n05:12.856 --> 05:35.145\n但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位\n\n05:35.965 --> 05:45.660\n我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年\n\n05:46.598 --> 06:11.647\n跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估\n\n06:15.389 --> 06:38.831\n我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在念跳文本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法院的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢\n\n06:40.441 --> 06:59.982\n我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎\n\n07:02.574 --> 07:16.867\n有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望\n\n07:18.943 --> 07:40.044\n委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請\n\n07:40.925 --> 08:09.240\n所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且\n\n08:10.180 --> 08:31.261\n請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳\n\n08:32.282 --> 08:49.455\n所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候\n\n08:51.556 --> 09:19.383\n核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎\n\n09:21.744 --> 09:45.419\n所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教了卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能\n\n09:47.186 --> 10:06.002\n應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長\n\n10:07.998 --> 10:23.455\n那所以換言之卓鴻泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一核二核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳\n\n10:23.956 --> 10:49.944\n或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告啊我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算\n\n10:53.510 --> 11:16.297\n一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝\n\n11:18.066 --> 11:45.016\n本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜\n\n11:45.697 --> 11:53.590\n臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.472,"end":31.402,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請張欣代理主委請張代理主委好主委好委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員"},{"start":33.203,"end":60.531,"text":"到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息我想這部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道是說我們這個明年的預算"},{"start":61.714,"end":63.462,"text":"是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊?"},{"start":65.463,"end":93.915,"text":"報告委員因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看"},{"start":95.107,"end":116.961,"text":"報告主委,在我們的組織法的話,在我們的組織法,其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候,就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委,所以我就在你執行這個業務。那既然代理執行這個業務,當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責。"},{"start":119.382,"end":142.909,"text":"議法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持好啦負責啦本期也講是說我們這個相關核安會齁其實就是要把核能安全給做好並且也要負責而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府來做參考或是說做判斷啦國際的趨勢現在COP29"},{"start":146.37,"end":172.902,"text":"在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言2050的時候希望說核能發電能夠達到現在目前的三倍那美國氣候的代表在會中也講說美國的核能捲土重來是進行式更不要講是說Amazon或是Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或說購買核電的一個打算所以我想"},{"start":174.414,"end":196.045,"text":"代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看"},{"start":197.877,"end":222.192,"text":"報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府"},{"start":223.573,"end":232.809,"text":"好,那又要又不要,等於走到四半走到八我們總統太院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能"},{"start":234.025,"end":238.686,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":254.949,"end":270.364,"text":"所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是"},{"start":272.332,"end":290.048,"text":"根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。"},{"start":290.769,"end":305.574,"text":"但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動經過所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復"},{"start":312.856,"end":335.145,"text":"但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位"},{"start":335.965,"end":345.66,"text":"我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年"},{"start":346.598,"end":371.647,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估"},{"start":375.389,"end":398.831,"text":"我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在念跳文本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法院的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢"},{"start":400.441,"end":419.982,"text":"我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎"},{"start":422.574,"end":436.867,"text":"有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望"},{"start":438.943,"end":460.044,"text":"委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請"},{"start":460.925,"end":489.24,"text":"所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且"},{"start":490.18,"end":511.261,"text":"請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳"},{"start":512.282,"end":529.455,"text":"所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候"},{"start":531.556,"end":559.383,"text":"核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎"},{"start":561.744,"end":585.419,"text":"所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教了卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能"},{"start":587.186,"end":606.002,"text":"應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長"},{"start":607.998,"end":623.455,"text":"那所以換言之卓鴻泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一核二核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳"},{"start":623.956,"end":649.944,"text":"或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告啊我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算"},{"start":653.51,"end":676.297,"text":"一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":678.066,"end":705.016,"text":"本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜"},{"start":705.697,"end":713.59,"text":"臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":92,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時17分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請張欣代理主委。"],["主席：請張代理主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。"],["張代理主任委員欣：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛本席聽到您跟召委也在談，然後就說前任的主委，他說是生涯規劃，任職沒有一年就請辭嘛！你從8月16日到現在，代理也超過3個月了。"],["張代理主任委員欣：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：依我們的相關規定，出缺3個月其實就要任命新任主委，到目前為止，會有新的主委來還是你真除，有沒有消息？"],["張代理主任委員欣：我想這一部分是行政院的權責，所以目前基本上，我就是做好我現在的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但超過3個月，也沒有任何人跟你講繼續代理或者有任何的明示、暗示？"],["張代理主任委員欣：基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子我們就不知道，明年的預算我們是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審？因為現在3個月到了，就是應該要有新的主委，這個是組織法的相關規定啊！現在你也說不清楚，然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算、已經在報告了，那不知道會不會我們審完之後發覺新娘不是你，這樣我們也很尷尬，你尷尬我也尷尬。還是說是不是我們就建議暫緩審查明年的預算，等到新任主委真的確認了，我們再來審查，您怎麼看？"],["張代理主任委員欣：報告委員，照我們的組織法，其實在主任委員無法執行相關業務的時候是由副主委代理，因為我原來就是副主委，所以我就代理執行這個業務。既然代理執行這個業務，當然在這期間就要對這個業務負責，所以我們依法編列預算以及來這邊報告，還是希望委員能夠多多支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦！因為你負責啦！本席也是說，核安會其實就是要把核能安全做好並負責，而且秉持專業以及客觀的判斷給政府做參考或判斷。","國際的趨勢，現在COP29，即氣候變遷因應大會提到有二十幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言，2050的時候希望核能發電能夠達到目前的三倍。美國氣候方面的代表在會中也說，美國的核能捲土重來是進行式，更不要說Amazon或者Google等大企業現在也都有重啟核電或購買核電的打算。我想代理主委也好，或是之後有可能真除的主委，重點在於要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考，所以我們想請教一下，你現在對於核能的態度，臺灣有沒有避免核能、不要核能的本錢？尤其是2050淨零碳排我們有一個減碳目標，您怎麼看？"],["張代理主任委員欣：剛才委員所詢問的其實都是能源政策的部分，核安會是安全主管機關，基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能部分，做好我們安全管制的工作，其實這一部分，報告委員，真的不在我們的職權範圍之內。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，之前你們有做過安全管制嘛！我其實很不了解的是，現在民進黨政府好像又要、又不要，「捏驚死，放驚飛」。卓榮泰院長來立法院備詢的時候講現在要新核能，然後又講要三個前提，一個是安全，一個是沒有核廢料問題，一個是社會有共識，他要用新核能。「安全」，不是過去到現在，不管是核安會，不管是原子能委員會，我們都在做為安全把關嗎？如果過去沒有安全的話，核一、核二、核三怎麼運作？所以這根本就是假命題！如果現在沒有安全，那代表過去四十年，核一、核二、核三都在不安全情況下運作，代表我們所有同仁是失職；如果說現在有安全的話，那就沒有這樣的一個前提，是不是？"],["張代理主任委員欣：跟委員報告，任何進入延役的機組，其實之前都是在運轉中的機組，所以才會有所謂的延役。剛才提到，運轉中的機組是安全的，確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關法規和要求，但延役是一個機制，所以它必須進行安全評估，並不是它原來在運轉中，它就可以自動進入……"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛剛還沒有提到延役，你已經先拋延役這個議題了，那我們就來討論延役這個議題。有人講要延役，專家學者、報導有講延役的話，其實就過程兩年、三年就有可能恢復，但是也有傳出行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示，核能延役起碼要3年半到5年，其中一個關鍵提到是說，還不是專業考量，是選舉考量，說要避開選舉、避開大選，所以至少要3年到5年。以專業的角度來講，我請教主委，我們如果真的核能延役，姑且先不論法令的部分，以專業、以台電現在的報告來講，我們重啟核能或核能延役需要幾年？"],["張代理主任委員欣：跟委員報告，我們現在既有的核能管制法，事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照屆期前5年提出延役，當時就有考慮到在申請延役的期間我們必須進行相關審查，台電公司也會在這個期間完成它必須因應的改善或設備更換，所以確實需要多少時間，其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科、你都在唸條文。"],["張代理主任委員欣：不是，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析，還有參考國際上來講，現在美國也在重啟核電，美國要幾年？"],["張代理主任委員欣：基本上我們原來在核管法裡面的規定……"],["洪委員孟楷：不，我先請教美國要幾年？世界先進國家……本席一直在強調的是世界趨勢，我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例、我們自己去研發嘛！也是買美國、歐美的相關機組。照理講美國相關的一些條件，或美國的一些相關技術，我們是可以參考。我想請教，現在美國不管是拜登政府或即將上任的川普政府，他們也提到延役，他們要5年嗎？有沒有去調查、有沒有去研究，還是你今天就是，我抱著條文來，然後我就鐵板一塊，反正執政黨還沒有說話，上面還沒有交代，我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘，委員不要為難我啦！不然我真除可能無望。"],["張代理主任委員欣：跟委員報告，委員剛才提到的，其實都是在運轉中提出延役申請的部分，這本來就有相關的法規規定，至於期程的長短，就看台電公司準備的評估報告內容。但是目前以國內的狀況，核一、核二跟核三的1號機都已進入除役期間，而且台電公司已經提出除役申請，所以他們相關的組織，或者是他們的人力，或者他們的維護都在變更，這其實有它的複雜性在。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你不覺得你現在真的很前後矛盾嗎？本席一開始沒有提到延役，然後你自己去提延役，本席真的請教你延役，我還想是不是核安會在你的主掌之下，比較有前瞻的想法，也看到國際的趨勢，這不是我講的，而是國際的趨勢，是美國拜登政府確實重啟核電廠，川普政府也說要重啟，而且請容我提醒，川普政府過去到現在的競選主張，他可能是相對來講，除了會支持燃油、燃氣以外，他沒有放棄核能，他也是大力支持核能。其實美國或是先進國家也都支持再生能源，而本席過去到現在一貫的主張是認為現在大家都在減碳，我們並不是要拿核能來取代再生能源，完全沒有衝突，核能跟再生能源是並行、並走、並存的，我也希望再生能源可以好好地發展，我們是要用核能來取代火力發電，因為現在此時此刻，當核三廠的2號機歲修的時候、核能發電是零的時候，全臺灣是85%，甚至90%以上火力全開，用火力發電，這才是空污，這才是造成國人「以肺發電」最重要的影響。","主委，你雖然是核安會的代理主委，但你也是生活在臺灣的一分子，每天我們生活在一樣的空氣下，你難道不會擔心我們呼吸到這樣的空氣，對我們自己以及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎？"],["張代理主任委員欣：所以報告立委，秉持核能安全把關的專業，這部分確實需要仔細地評估，也需要有共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：代理主委，主席剛暗示我時間到了，我最後請教，卓榮泰院長有講新核能，請教什麼是新核能？"],["張代理主任委員欣：應該是指進步型的反應器，或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器、或者核融合，都是目前在發展中的核能技術。"],["洪委員孟楷：對！你們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到你剛所提到新核能的研究或計畫？"],["張代理主任委員欣：我們在國原……"],["洪委員孟楷：你也是身為原子能科技研究院的董事長，換言之，卓榮泰院長也講新核能，就代表現在核一、核二、核三用的，甚至我們原本核四的機組，那個都叫舊核能。姑且不講這個東西跟國際專業、科學上有沒有背道而馳，或者是用替代概念，但既然卓院長也講新核能，為什麼你們114（明）年的預算裡面，沒有任何新核能研究計畫，或是你們的雄心壯志？好啊！我們來搞一個新核能啊！美國沒有、日本沒有，還沒有發展出來，我們先來搞，有沒有？"],["主席：代理主委，再跟委員書面或口頭報告好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：你們編列了多少預算或計畫？"],["張代理主任委員欣：我們其實在國原院是有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：多少預算？"],["高院長梓木：1,543萬，就是……"],["張代理主任委員欣：而且把核融合……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們明年的總預算3兆，結果關乎那麼重要的能源編了1,500萬，這樣夠用嗎？"],["張代理主任委員欣：還有7,000萬是在核融合。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有多少？"],["張代理主任委員欣：7,000萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有7,000萬在核融合。"],["張代理主任委員欣：對，這部分我們會後再補充資料給委員，好嗎？"],["主席：再書面或是口頭跟洪委員說明好嗎？"],["張代理主任委員欣：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席真的還是善意提醒，我們都是生活在臺灣，能源問題是選擇，我們都要共同面對，所以要用專業來講話，如果現在執政黨真的是錯誤的能源主張，因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核，還有，其實民進黨內部，我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核，但如果死抱著神主牌不放，我們又沒有專業判斷的話，我覺得這樣非常可惜。臺灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點，請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，代理主委請回。","請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","再來我們請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","林宜瑾","林倩綺","張雅琳","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葉元之","吳春城"],"page_start":313,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會代理主任委員張欣列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有\n關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家\n原子能科技研究院預算案（第二案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00005"}}}