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\"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 761.861, \"end\": 762.062, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 762.062, \"end\": 762.262, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 762.262, \"end\": 762.402, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 762.402, \"end\": 762.783, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 762.783, \"end\": 762.943, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 762.943, \"end\": 763.083, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 763.083, \"end\": 763.363, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 763.363, \"end\": 763.544, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 763.544, \"end\": 763.744, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 763.744, \"end\": 764.124, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 764.124, \"end\": 764.545, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 764.545, \"end\": 765.086, 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\"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 891.738, \"end\": 891.878, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 891.878, \"end\": 892.078, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 892.078, \"end\": 892.258, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 892.258, \"end\": 892.398, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 892.398, \"end\": 892.598, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 892.598, \"end\": 892.618, \"score\": 0.992}]}, {\"start\": 897.623, \"end\": 923.548, \"text\": \"委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 897.623, \"end\": 897.923, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 897.923, \"end\": 898.804, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 898.804, \"end\": 899.204, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 899.204, \"end\": 899.664, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 899.664, \"end\": 900.404, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 900.404, \"end\": 900.604, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 900.604, \"end\": 900.764, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 900.764, \"end\": 900.904, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 900.904, \"end\": 901.164, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 901.164, \"end\": 902.064, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 902.064, \"end\": 902.584, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 902.584, \"end\": 903.064, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 903.064, \"end\": 903.244, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 903.244, \"end\": 903.384, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 903.384, 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1165.815, \"end\": 1165.856, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"訓\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1165.856, \"end\": 1165.956, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1165.956, \"end\": 1166.096, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1166.096, \"end\": 1166.216, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1166.216, \"end\": 1166.236, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1166.236, \"end\": 1166.256, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1166.256, \"end\": 1166.276, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1172.438, \"end\": 1172.718, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1172.718, \"end\": 1173.018, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1173.018, \"end\": 1173.038, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1173.038, \"end\": 1173.539, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1173.539, \"end\": 1173.639, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1173.639, \"end\": 1173.679, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1173.679, \"end\": 1173.799, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 1173.799, \"end\": 1173.899, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1173.899, \"end\": 1174.039, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 1174.039, \"end\": 1174.199, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1174.199, \"end\": 1174.379, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1174.379, \"end\": 1174.539, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 1174.539, \"end\": 1174.639, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1174.639, \"end\": 1174.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1174.659, \"end\": 1174.739, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 1174.739, \"end\": 1174.759, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1174.759, \"end\": 1174.779, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1174.779, \"end\": 1174.799, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1174.799, \"end\": 1174.839, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1174.839, \"end\": 1174.859, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 1198.052, \"end\": 1198.272, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1198.272, \"end\": 1198.292, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1198.292, \"end\": 1198.412, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1198.412, \"end\": 1198.513, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 1198.513, \"end\": 1198.713, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1198.713, \"end\": 1198.813, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1198.813, \"end\": 1198.833, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 1198.833, \"end\": 1198.853, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,798 --> 00:00:04,544\n主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,503 --> 00:00:36,328\n部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢\n\n3\n00:00:38,308 --> 00:01:05,383\n那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧\n\n4\n00:01:06,684 --> 00:01:24,201\n是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我\n\n5\n00:01:28,224 --> 00:01:46,920\n我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:48,505 --> 00:02:08,571\n這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎\n\n7\n00:02:13,993 --> 00:02:28,109\n他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題\n\n8\n00:02:29,531 --> 00:02:45,495\n部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長\n\n9\n00:02:54,577 --> 00:02:55,077\n因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊\n\n10\n00:03:12,346 --> 00:03:26,462\n所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎\n\n11\n00:03:30,726 --> 00:03:34,529\n我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦\n\n12\n00:03:50,962 --> 00:04:09,566\n今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有\n\n13\n00:04:17,568 --> 00:04:18,328\n你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件\n\n14\n00:04:45,825 --> 00:05:04,073\n但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡\n\n15\n00:05:05,646 --> 00:05:29,653\n我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?\n\n16\n00:05:32,084 --> 00:05:47,410\n拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下\n\n17\n00:05:49,636 --> 00:06:12,401\n分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎\n\n18\n00:06:14,324 --> 00:06:37,606\n不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是\n\n19\n00:06:39,858 --> 00:06:50,772\n貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎\n\n20\n00:06:53,507 --> 00:07:17,174\n他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧\n\n21\n00:07:21,656 --> 00:07:39,034\n所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢\n\n22\n00:07:41,368 --> 00:08:09,414\n接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席\n\n23\n00:08:10,891 --> 00:08:23,755\n我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也\n\n24\n00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:51,226\n這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館\n\n25\n00:08:52,466 --> 00:09:15,843\n每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整\n\n26\n00:09:17,385 --> 00:09:22,023\n我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看\n\n27\n00:09:24,291 --> 00:09:48,471\n這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了\n\n28\n00:09:49,318 --> 00:10:05,301\n我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害\n\n29\n00:10:07,303 --> 00:10:35,002\n這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到\n\n30\n00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:36,550\n好,這裡啊\n\n31\n00:11:05,868 --> 00:11:06,488\n主席主席\n\n32\n00:11:24,471 --> 00:11:40,723\n我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣\n\n33\n00:11:46,213 --> 00:12:02,586\n各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定\n\n34\n00:12:03,426 --> 00:12:30,178\n那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦\n\n35\n00:12:31,567 --> 00:12:46,648\n我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會\n\n36\n00:12:48,871 --> 00:13:07,175\n因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧\n\n37\n00:13:10,896 --> 00:13:23,433\n因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論\n\n38\n00:13:26,657 --> 00:13:49,590\n才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件\n\n39\n00:13:50,410 --> 00:13:50,430\n報告．\n\n40\n00:14:16,573 --> 00:14:33,551\n委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級\n\n41\n00:14:35,512 --> 00:14:52,618\n請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路\n\n42\n00:14:57,623 --> 00:15:23,548\n委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關\n\n43\n00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:30,994\n所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎\n\n44\n00:15:54,012 --> 00:16:18,437\n說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理\n\n45\n00:16:21,818 --> 00:16:37,508\n之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊\n\n46\n00:16:39,365 --> 00:16:57,375\n這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個\n\n47\n00:16:58,335 --> 00:17:18,244\n建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸\n\n48\n00:17:19,264 --> 00:17:33,059\n那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎?\n\n49\n00:17:41,249 --> 00:17:55,361\n是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛\n\n50\n00:17:59,184 --> 00:18:25,645\n他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長\n\n51\n00:18:27,586 --> 00:18:44,515\n同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料\n\n52\n00:18:45,515 --> 00:18:47,417\n他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果\n\n53\n00:19:03,663 --> 00:19:26,276\n跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子\n\n54\n00:19:32,438 --> 00:19:34,859\n主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查\n\n55\n00:19:58,052 --> 00:19:58,853\n明天可以請教部長還有機關署\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1798\t4544\t主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長\n12503\t36328\t部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢\n38308\t65383\t那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧\n66684\t84201\t是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我\n88224\t106920\t我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎?\n108505\t128571\t這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎\n133993\t148109\t他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題\n149531\t165495\t部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長\n174577\t175077\t因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊\n192346\t206462\t所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎\n210726\t214529\t我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦\n230962\t249566\t今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有\n257568\t258328\t你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件\n285825\t304073\t但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡\n305646\t329653\t我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?\n332084\t347410\t拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下\n349636\t372401\t分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎\n374324\t397606\t不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是\n399858\t410772\t貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎\n413507\t437174\t他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧\n441656\t459034\t所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢\n461368\t489414\t接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席\n490891\t503755\t我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也\n507116\t531226\t這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館\n532466\t555843\t每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整\n557385\t562023\t我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看\n564291\t588471\t這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了\n589318\t605301\t我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害\n607303\t635002\t這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到\n636510\t636550\t好,這裡啊\n665868\t666488\t主席主席\n684471\t700723\t我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣\n706213\t722586\t各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定\n723426\t750178\t那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦\n751567\t766648\t我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會\n768871\t787175\t因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧\n790896\t803433\t因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論\n806657\t829590\t才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件\n830410\t830430\t報告．\n856573\t873551\t委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級\n875512\t892618\t請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路\n897623\t923548\t委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關\n924830\t930994\t所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎\n954012\t978437\t說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理\n981818\t997508\t之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊\n999365\t1017375\t這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個\n1018335\t1038244\t建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸\n1039264\t1053059\t那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎?\n1061249\t1075361\t是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛\n1079184\t1105645\t他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長\n1107586\t1124515\t同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料\n1125515\t1127417\t他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果\n1143663\t1166276\t跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子\n1172438\t1174859\t主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查\n1198052\t1198853\t明天可以請教部長還有機關署\n","txt":"主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長\n部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢\n那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧\n是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我\n我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎?\n這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎\n他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題\n部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長\n因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊\n所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎\n我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦\n今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有\n你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件\n但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡\n我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?\n拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下\n分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎\n不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是\n貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎\n他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧\n所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢\n接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席\n我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也\n這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館\n每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整\n我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看\n這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了\n我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害\n這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到\n好,這裡啊\n主席主席\n我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣\n各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定\n那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦\n我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會\n因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧\n因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論\n才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件\n報告．\n委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級\n請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路\n委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關\n所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎\n說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理\n之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊\n這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個\n建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸\n那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎?\n是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛\n他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長\n同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料\n他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果\n跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子\n主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查\n明天可以請教部長還有機關署\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.798 --> 00:04.544\n主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長\n\n00:12.503 --> 00:36.328\n部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢\n\n00:38.308 --> 01:05.383\n那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧\n\n01:06.684 --> 01:24.201\n是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我\n\n01:28.224 --> 01:46.920\n我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎?\n\n01:48.505 --> 02:08.571\n這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎\n\n02:13.993 --> 02:28.109\n他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題\n\n02:29.531 --> 02:45.495\n部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長\n\n02:54.577 --> 02:55.077\n因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊\n\n03:12.346 --> 03:26.462\n所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎\n\n03:30.726 --> 03:34.529\n我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦\n\n03:50.962 --> 04:09.566\n今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有\n\n04:17.568 --> 04:18.328\n你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件\n\n04:45.825 --> 05:04.073\n但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡\n\n05:05.646 --> 05:29.653\n我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?\n\n05:32.084 --> 05:47.410\n拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下\n\n05:49.636 --> 06:12.401\n分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎\n\n06:14.324 --> 06:37.606\n不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是\n\n06:39.858 --> 06:50.772\n貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎\n\n06:53.507 --> 07:17.174\n他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧\n\n07:21.656 --> 07:39.034\n所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢\n\n07:41.368 --> 08:09.414\n接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席\n\n08:10.891 --> 08:23.755\n我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也\n\n08:27.116 --> 08:51.226\n這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館\n\n08:52.466 --> 09:15.843\n每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整\n\n09:17.385 --> 09:22.023\n我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看\n\n09:24.291 --> 09:48.471\n這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了\n\n09:49.318 --> 10:05.301\n我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害\n\n10:07.303 --> 10:35.002\n這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到\n\n10:36.510 --> 10:36.550\n好,這裡啊\n\n11:05.868 --> 11:06.488\n主席主席\n\n11:24.471 --> 11:40.723\n我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣\n\n11:46.213 --> 12:02.586\n各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定\n\n12:03.426 --> 12:30.178\n那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦\n\n12:31.567 --> 12:46.648\n我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會\n\n12:48.871 --> 13:07.175\n因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧\n\n13:10.896 --> 13:23.433\n因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論\n\n13:26.657 --> 13:49.590\n才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件\n\n13:50.410 --> 13:50.430\n報告．\n\n14:16.573 --> 14:33.551\n委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級\n\n14:35.512 --> 14:52.618\n請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路\n\n14:57.623 --> 15:23.548\n委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關\n\n15:24.830 --> 15:30.994\n所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎\n\n15:54.012 --> 16:18.437\n說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理\n\n16:21.818 --> 16:37.508\n之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊\n\n16:39.365 --> 16:57.375\n這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個\n\n16:58.335 --> 17:18.244\n建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸\n\n17:19.264 --> 17:33.059\n那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎?\n\n17:41.249 --> 17:55.361\n是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛\n\n17:59.184 --> 18:25.645\n他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長\n\n18:27.586 --> 18:44.515\n同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料\n\n18:45.515 --> 18:47.417\n他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果\n\n19:03.663 --> 19:26.276\n跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子\n\n19:32.438 --> 19:34.859\n主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查\n\n19:58.052 --> 19:58.853\n明天可以請教部長還有機關署\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.798,"end":4.544,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長"},{"start":12.503,"end":36.328,"text":"部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢"},{"start":38.308,"end":65.383,"text":"那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧"},{"start":66.684,"end":84.201,"text":"是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我"},{"start":88.224,"end":106.92,"text":"我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":108.505,"end":128.571,"text":"這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎"},{"start":133.993,"end":148.109,"text":"他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題"},{"start":149.531,"end":165.495,"text":"部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長"},{"start":174.577,"end":175.077,"text":"因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊"},{"start":192.346,"end":206.462,"text":"所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎"},{"start":210.726,"end":214.529,"text":"我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦"},{"start":230.962,"end":249.566,"text":"今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有"},{"start":257.568,"end":258.328,"text":"你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件"},{"start":285.825,"end":304.073,"text":"但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡"},{"start":305.646,"end":329.653,"text":"我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?"},{"start":332.084,"end":347.41,"text":"拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下"},{"start":349.636,"end":372.401,"text":"分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎"},{"start":374.324,"end":397.606,"text":"不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是"},{"start":399.858,"end":410.772,"text":"貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎"},{"start":413.507,"end":437.174,"text":"他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧"},{"start":441.656,"end":459.034,"text":"所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢"},{"start":461.368,"end":489.414,"text":"接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席"},{"start":490.891,"end":503.755,"text":"我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也"},{"start":507.116,"end":531.226,"text":"這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館"},{"start":532.466,"end":555.843,"text":"每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整"},{"start":557.385,"end":562.023,"text":"我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看"},{"start":564.291,"end":588.471,"text":"這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了"},{"start":589.318,"end":605.301,"text":"我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害"},{"start":607.303,"end":635.002,"text":"這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到"},{"start":636.51,"end":636.55,"text":"好,這裡啊"},{"start":665.868,"end":666.488,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":684.471,"end":700.723,"text":"我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣"},{"start":706.213,"end":722.586,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定"},{"start":723.426,"end":750.178,"text":"那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦"},{"start":751.567,"end":766.648,"text":"我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會"},{"start":768.871,"end":787.175,"text":"因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧"},{"start":790.896,"end":803.433,"text":"因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論"},{"start":806.657,"end":829.59,"text":"才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件"},{"start":830.41,"end":830.43,"text":"報告．"},{"start":856.573,"end":873.551,"text":"委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級"},{"start":875.512,"end":892.618,"text":"請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路"},{"start":897.623,"end":923.548,"text":"委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關"},{"start":924.83,"end":930.994,"text":"所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":954.012,"end":978.437,"text":"說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理"},{"start":981.818,"end":997.508,"text":"之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊"},{"start":999.365,"end":1017.375,"text":"這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個"},{"start":1018.335,"end":1038.244,"text":"建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸"},{"start":1039.264,"end":1053.059,"text":"那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎?"},{"start":1061.249,"end":1075.361,"text":"是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛"},{"start":1079.184,"end":1105.645,"text":"他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長"},{"start":1107.586,"end":1124.515,"text":"同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料"},{"start":1125.515,"end":1127.417,"text":"他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果"},{"start":1143.663,"end":1166.276,"text":"跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子"},{"start":1172.438,"end":1174.859,"text":"主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查"},{"start":1198.052,"end":1198.853,"text":"明天可以請教部長還有機關署"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時28分）謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員，我也想請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。部長，昨天你們的記者會一邊開，旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋，如果您有空的話，可以回去看一下網友留言，我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家，甚至比你們勞動部還清楚。勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境，結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定，這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢？我也覺得很荒謬的是，記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章，但是你的內容是講我頒發這個勳章，我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受，但是是他的心理素質不夠好，不堪負荷工作的壓力，很遺憾……"],["何部長佩珊：不是這樣的意思。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你今天才講，你昨天說有霸凌的感受，剛剛報告你終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：是對其他同仁、一級主管們，有霸凌的事實，可是對這位當事人沒有。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受，是這個意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，這一點我也無法證實，這一點在報告裡面，因為都是專家去訪談的，專家們認為無法證實，不是我，我只是陳述這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：我認為這位被霸凌者，您說他沒有被霸凌，好，這位死者，他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相，結果你頒了一個勳章，然後說分署長是對死者上面的一級主管有霸凌的事實，但是對死者沒有辦法肯定，是這個意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這是專家去調查的時候，他們所做的結論是這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：就是您剛剛講的外部專家，他們做出來的結論嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是，是，是，因為這是客觀的事實的問題啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：好，部長您昨天也提到分署長目前的精神狀態不佳，需要被心理諮商，可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商，但是他22號就要回來上班了，請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎？至今他都沒有出來，這位……"],["何部長佩珊：他當然一定要道歉的，他當然一定要道歉！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以他22號會跟我們全國國人……"],["何部長佩珊：我想他應該要儘快來道歉。"],["陳委員菁徽：他22號會上班，沒錯吧？"],["何部長佩珊：因為他現在請假中嘛，我想他應該要儘快來道歉，沒有問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，部長，我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問，昨天您的記者會是直接點火在燃燒，所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員，我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的。我也想請問您，在這個事情發生過後，部長，你有沒有致電給民進黨何博文副秘書長，請他關切湧言會的市議員不要再追究這件事情？你有沒有打這通電話給何博文副秘書長？"],["何部長佩珊：因為我必須跟李宇翔議員溝通，所以我是有透過何博文副秘書長，拜託他幫我們跟李宇翔議員溝通，我怎麼做讓他知道是這樣子。"],["陳委員菁徽：結果，在李宇翔市議員的臉書上，說勞動部發了一個公文，請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文，這個是瞭解嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有這樣的公文啊？我們有發這樣的公文嗎？沒有的，委員……"],["陳委員菁徽：您再到他的臉書上去看一下，所以您是有打給何博文副秘書長嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：有，有，是，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：根據深喉嚨指出，等一下應該也會有別人問啦！他說您把您的老師柯建銘搬出來，說希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重，我是想問，今天你是勞動部部長，你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止，怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們絕對沒有請柯總召……"],["陳委員菁徽：您要找一個……"],["何部長佩珊：我絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題！沒有這個部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：我沒有說你找柯總召，而是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，沒有！"],["陳委員菁徽：你要找一位市議員，需要透過副秘書長嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，因為我不認識他，對不起，因為我不認識他，抱歉。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，他其實已經在臉書上呼喚你很久了！"],["何部長佩珊：是，可是我真的不認識他，所以我想跟他溝通啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的確是有打這通電話給何博文副秘書長嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是的，是的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來，我們想問的是，剛剛已經提到了，你也承認這是一個霸凌的事件，但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊！你昨天完全沒有公布這個人要調去哪裡，你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位，所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位，請問這是多大的機密啊？為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：我已經把他降為十職等專委了。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有把他降職等嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有。"],["陳委員菁徽：從十一降到十？"],["何部長佩珊：是，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那他要調去哪裡？勞動部的同仁……"],["何部長佩珊：調去哪裡懇請委員給我們一點時間，當然這種時候，會有哪個地方願意要他去呢，是不是？要給我們一點時間安排。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以他22號回來上班，他要先回哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：拜託委員給我一點時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你22號會公布他要去哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["陳委員菁徽：然後帶著他出來道歉？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來，當然你可能不想再聽錄音檔了啦，但是我們還是要播給大家看，幫我播一下。","（播放錄音）"],["陳委員菁徽：好，不管是右邊的法院判決，或者是你們勞動部自己的「執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引」，在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑，就是屬於職場霸凌，您剛剛也承認了。陳昭姿委員，你剛剛的表格我幫你做一個大的，馬上幫你做一個大的。這是貴部提供給全國企業機關使用的，奇怪的是，為什麼是自主檢核？你覺得給這個分署長自主檢核，他會勾嗎？他都可以做出那樣子的事……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，確實從這個事件可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業都不足……"],["陳委員菁徽：要重新檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是，當然。"],["陳委員菁徽：我根據網路上的爆料，根據這些新聞，還有他們內部的一些投書，17項中他就符合11項，結果昨天居然不斷重複的說管理不當，你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧！你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考績會懲處，因為他們都必須要負行政責任，那政治責任誰來負擔呢？"],["何部長佩珊：政治責任我負啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：嗯，那接下來呢？"],["何部長佩珊：因為我是政務官。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，接下來呢？"],["何部長佩珊：接下來我會負我該負的責任，如果社會各界不滿意，我當然會負我該負的責任。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們的這份報告。","再來，我們要通盤來檢討公部門職場霸凌的問題，這是近期內我整理出來的所有新聞，我也想請銓敘部還有人事總處，以及考試院的代表都可以一起列席。","我是婦產科醫生，所以看到臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以致於流產這件事情非常的有感，可惜今年8月我們在休會，所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢，但是我也召開過一個協調會，8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌，導致一位工讀生不幸過世，當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話，現在有很多職場霸凌的對話，為什麼網路會炸鍋？因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦！不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心，還有等一下會講到的海科館，每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音，都會覺得這些人輕生的很不值得啊！為了你們這樣子的行為而輕生，真的很不值得。","這個海科館的館長也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁，不准他請假，然後說：不然你就去退休好了。這些東西都在網路上流傳，如果你們不儘快做出一些調整，我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音。","好，請考試院代表回答，公務人員保障法第十九條規定，包含公務人員的安全防護措施，有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防，對不對？"],["黃處長振榮：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：對於這位海科館館長，同仁需要受訓想請特休，館長一開始先不讓他請假，後來叫他直接退休算了。我在這個表上又多勾了兩項，不准人請假或是強迫退休都符合囉，17項中又多了兩項，請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害？"],["黃處長振榮：這個一般應該覺得算是。"],["陳委員菁徽：是嘛？"],["黃處長振榮：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那你們的公務人員保障法第十九條有辦法保障他嗎？你可以用你們自己的法律保障他們嗎？"],["黃處長振榮：目前的機制是先向機關申訴，如果對於申訴結果不滿意或者不同意的話，再向保訓會……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題。"],["黃處長振榮：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：你剛剛講到的這個公保法沒有罰則耶！第一，很難定義；第二，還沒有罰則耶！"],["黃處長振榮：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以依照你們的定義，昨天他講的管理不當，你覺得適合嗎？還是直接就定義這是一個職場霸凌？"],["黃處長振榮：依照現行規定，各機關還有一個安全防護小組，會由小組來認定，小組認定不適當或不服就要再往保訓會的再申訴程序去處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這裡沒有處分耶！"],["黃處長振榮：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以就算他違反了這條法律，現在對他也沒有任何的處分，你覺得這件事是不是應該要重新檢討？"],["黃處長振榮：是。另外，這個部分就是機關首長要經過考績的程序來處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎？我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分依據，可以嗎？"],["黃處長振榮：報告委員，保障法是保訓會主管，是不是可以容許由保訓會跟您報告一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["黃處長秀琴：跟委員報告，目前公務人員保障法裡面，機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害；我們的安全衛生防護辦法有一些措施規定，雖然目前沒有罰則，但是我們實務上如果有違反，都可以依照公務人員考績法規去做相關的處理；考績法規的處理，譬如說有懲處或者是考績評定時做相關的處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是沒有辦法讓他停職嘛，對不對？"],["黃處長秀琴：因為停職對公務人員權益有重大影響，應該在法律上明定。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你們講，你們剛剛講的那個表出了什麼問題。"],["黃處長秀琴：對，可以依照懲戒法的規定，移付懲戒之後，如果認為情節重大就可以依法停職。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以剛剛提到的這位分署長，應該考績會會送、懲戒也會送？"],["黃處長秀琴：討論了之後，對……"],["陳委員菁徽：兩邊都會？"],["黃處長秀琴：因為目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的，可以一方面做懲處，一方面機關認為他情節重大的話，可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒，移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定，如果認為是情節重大，可以依職權停職。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個應該情節夠重大了吧？"],["黃處長秀琴：因為這個要機關認定，並不是保訓會認定。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說，機關目前還沒認定他情節重大？"],["黃處長秀琴：因為他們還在討論，所以報告之後調查清楚了，要到考績會上去討論……"],["陳委員菁徽：才會給予停職的處分？"],["黃處長秀琴：才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用。"],["陳委員菁徽：考試院，我們可以再討論一下您剛才提到的，您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程，這個是人事總處訂定出來的，你看這兩個表有多大的問題，我都已經幫你圈出來了。剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件，他的機關首長就是霸凌者，該怎麼辦？他就是在內部持續的延燒，很多人都嘗試要求助，根本沒有辦法，因為每一個流程最後都會走到機關首長，每一個流程還要簽呈機關首長，主動通報機關首長，但是機關首長本人就是霸凌者，你這個表要怎麼修改，你可以告訴我們嗎？"],["黃處長秀琴：報告委員，我們實務上的處理，如果是機關首長涉及的話，會給他的上級機關來處理，這跟性平的處理一樣，如果是首長，因為首長的考核權限是在上級，所以就會給上級。"],["陳委員菁徽：請您看一下左邊這個表，假使發生了多元申訴管道，一邊是事件處理，啟動申訴處理調查，一邊是人事主管、單位主管主動通報機關首長，假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長，你覺得他應該要走哪一條路？"],["黃處長秀琴：這個表是人總……"],["陳處長月春：委員好，因為機關首長就是往上級機關走，關於這個部分，我們在112年9月14號的時候也有通函行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關，在相關的處理要點裡面，把機關首長涉及職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關來處理，這樣的規定請他們要納入。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以……"],["陳處長月春：以這個案子而言，分署長是機關首長，所以他的上級機關就是勞動部。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是，現在全國在看電視的公務人員，他假使遇到機關首長的霸凌，他要再往上一個單位嗎？是這個意思嗎？"],["陳處長月春：我說明一下，分署的上級機關是勞發署，而我們這個流程的規定是在有霸凌相關事件發生時候的處理參考流程，公務人員跟機關提出申訴，如果申訴的對象是機關首長，就是往上級機關來做申訴處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：之後陳昭姿委員會繼續追，因為這個人的確是有再往上，大家應該都知道吧！但是卻沒有結果，所以你的這張表我們也會要求你通盤檢討，就算是往上也沒有用啊！"],["陳處長月春：相關機制的部分，我們也會配合勞動部相關的職場霸凌指引……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，就是因為人事總處、考試院、銓敘部都沒有把這些規則訂好。我們來看教育部是怎麼回復我們的，請看這個建議免刪除或是凍結預算的說明，剛剛已經有講到了，海科館館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁，結果呢？最後回來的報告是寫說，經過了解，館長還是給他放假了，而且也讓他去受訓，最後沒有影響到員工的權益。這樣就算了耶！館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善，所以該員工前面被霸凌的事實就全部都不用算了，因為最後他的權益都沒有影響，因此他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎？"],["王處長崇斌：報告委員，關於這個部分，教育部的回復主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明，至於館長的管理風格部分，事實上我們已經在了解，然後也在檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！所以的確我們剛剛講的第十九條是毫無約束能力嘛！沒有辦法懲處，也沒有辦法約束，我三個月內要看到你們提交報告，第一，要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當、什麼叫霸凌？第二，他可以受到什麼懲處？我們要如何援引法條？","最後，因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害，這個是最近Threads上面一直在流傳的，有一位疾管署的整備組組長也一樣，他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝，有許多豐功偉業，很多人發文說他對同事咆哮、摔公文、罵別人是豬，導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離。我也請疾管署提供相關的資料，整備組的調離及辭職率高達37.14%，是署內最高的單位，也是異動率最高的，我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查、多久可以有結果？"],["黃處長秀琴：跟委員報告，各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限，各機關針對這個調查之後，作成成立或不成立的決定……"],["陳委員菁徽：今天衛福部只有來一位……"],["黃處長秀琴：就可以來救濟……"],["陳委員菁徽：是不是衛福部只有來一位？所以保訓會已經收到我們具體的檢舉，還是要交給原來單位就對了？"],["黃處長秀琴：第一個，保訓會還沒有接到這個案子……"],["陳委員菁徽：我現在在告訴你這個案子。"],["黃處長秀琴：這個案子必須是機關先做行政調查，對於機關行政調查的結果，任何一方的公務人員，霸凌者或是被霸凌者有所不服都可以依照保障法的規定來提起救濟。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，我最後就是請衛福部代表回答，他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，因為今天疾管署沒有來，但是之前疾管署有提供一個資訊，就是針對這個案子的話，會慎重地比照職場霸凌防治與處理的作業規定來成立專案小組，進行……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以已經啟動了嗎？啟動了嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：會成立專案小組來啟動調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：我會再追一下進度。主席謝謝。"],["主席：明天可以請教部長還有疾管署，明天疾管署要過來，謝謝陳委員。","接續請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}}