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{\"word\": \"尾\", \"start\": 740.38, \"end\": 740.46, \"score\": 0.418}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 740.46, \"end\": 740.58, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 740.58, \"end\": 740.66, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 740.66, \"end\": 740.76, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 740.76, \"end\": 740.94, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 740.94, \"end\": 741.121, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 741.121, \"end\": 741.501, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 741.501, \"end\": 742.281, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"觸\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 742.281, \"end\": 742.441, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 742.441, \"end\": 743.042, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 743.042, \"end\": 743.522, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 743.522, \"end\": 744.203, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 744.203, \"end\": 744.643, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 744.643, \"end\": 744.783, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 744.783, \"end\": 744.803, \"score\": 0.038}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 744.803, \"end\": 744.923, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 744.923, \"end\": 745.324, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 745.324, \"end\": 745.504, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 745.504, \"end\": 745.584, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 745.584, \"end\": 745.604, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 745.604, \"end\": 745.624, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 745.624, \"end\": 745.644, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 745.644, \"end\": 745.664, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 745.664, 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 948.696, \"end\": 948.857, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 948.857, \"end\": 948.957, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 948.957, \"end\": 949.117, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 949.117, \"end\": 949.257, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 949.257, \"end\": 949.277, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 949.838, \"end\": 949.918, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 949.918, \"end\": 950.479, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"敏\", \"start\": 950.479, \"end\": 950.499, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,161 --> 00:00:07,828\n好謝謝主席我們是不是有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,485 --> 00:00:38,943\n你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長結果你要捍衛全國勞工的權益你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓然後工作量過大超時打假卡然後不堪負荷輕生你有沒有覺得這件事情真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺發生在你勞動部\n\n3\n00:00:41,129 --> 00:00:57,661\n所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格\n\n4\n00:00:58,061 --> 00:01:16,227\n去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎\n\n5\n00:01:17,347 --> 00:01:32,412\n我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像\n\n6\n00:01:34,813 --> 00:02:00,348\n他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開\n\n7\n00:02:02,881 --> 00:02:05,388\n但是他的打卡記錄是7點11分到5點01分離開\n\n8\n00:02:11,087 --> 00:02:29,587\n所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面\n\n9\n00:02:33,531 --> 00:02:34,932\n所規範的最高12小時\n\n10\n00:03:03,499 --> 00:03:30,455\n報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊\n\n11\n00:03:31,127 --> 00:03:54,657\n所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前\n\n12\n00:03:57,162 --> 00:04:11,872\n跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人\n\n13\n00:04:13,238 --> 00:04:30,124\n家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在如果有一個員工\n\n14\n00:04:31,084 --> 00:04:49,645\n他每天都要5點多就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎\n\n15\n00:04:51,341 --> 00:05:06,727\n都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個\n\n16\n00:05:14,924 --> 00:05:38,849\n不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?\n\n17\n00:05:40,799 --> 00:05:55,766\n委員我理解起來她的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說她其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件她的主管也都不知道\n\n18\n00:05:57,239 --> 00:06:15,094\n那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到\n\n19\n00:06:15,794 --> 00:06:31,137\n然後沒有一個主管發現,是沒有發現還是不想處理?我想他的直屬都市長也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成,也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解\n\n20\n00:06:32,138 --> 00:06:53,038\n我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺\n\n21\n00:06:54,335 --> 00:06:54,355\n好\n\n22\n00:07:23,621 --> 00:07:23,841\n當然當然當然當然\n\n23\n00:07:50,953 --> 00:08:11,525\n分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊\n\n24\n00:08:14,207 --> 00:08:16,548\n王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話、有約談?這件事情是真的還是假的?請回答。\n\n25\n00:08:33,086 --> 00:09:00,692\n委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣子則那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼\n\n26\n00:09:02,476 --> 00:09:27,223\n這件事情很重要你知道嗎?因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之?到底處理了什麼?那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢?你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎?他有沒有被約談二月份?\n\n27\n00:09:28,723 --> 00:09:50,394\n約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查分別為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這一個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁\n\n28\n00:09:50,954 --> 00:10:06,748\n對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點\n\n29\n00:10:07,589 --> 00:10:34,068\n當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊\n\n30\n00:10:36,309 --> 00:10:56,543\n如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊\n\n31\n00:10:58,425 --> 00:11:11,962\n難怪現在你們調查報告出來分屬很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露\n\n32\n00:11:13,524 --> 00:11:20,349\n我認為市長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索他當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索\n\n33\n00:11:39,122 --> 00:12:06,310\n如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉\n\n34\n00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:25,924\n你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎\n\n35\n00:12:30,127 --> 00:12:52,530\n當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分屬的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好\n\n36\n00:12:53,171 --> 00:13:08,177\n那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查\n\n37\n00:13:10,482 --> 00:13:31,702\n你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立\n\n38\n00:13:32,723 --> 00:13:57,353\n不成立內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用啊這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答\n\n39\n00:13:58,847 --> 00:14:26,485\n這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細\n\n40\n00:14:27,105 --> 00:14:54,895\n發言委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋\n\n41\n00:14:55,515 --> 00:14:56,036\n這兩個意見您同意嗎?\n\n42\n00:15:16,576 --> 00:15:19,760\n好,你承諾會提高位階對不對?提高位階你們要多久的時間?\n\n43\n00:15:35,379 --> 00:15:49,277\n我們這個是我們依照我們治安法跟那個設施規則定的指引其實我們在指引已經定有這個指引的法效性在我們設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引那如果說在文字上需要再做修正我們再回來再做檢討\n\n44\n00:15:49,838 --> 00:15:50,499\n王育敏\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6161\t7828\t好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請部長\n14485\t38943\t你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長結果你要捍衛全國勞工的權益你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓然後工作量過大超時打假卡然後不堪負荷輕生你有沒有覺得這件事情真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺發生在你勞動部\n41129\t57661\t所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格\n58061\t76227\t去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎\n77347\t92412\t我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像\n94813\t120348\t他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開\n122881\t125388\t但是他的打卡記錄是7點11分到5點01分離開\n131087\t149587\t所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面\n153531\t154932\t所規範的最高12小時\n183499\t210455\t報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊\n211127\t234657\t所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前\n237162\t251872\t跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人\n253238\t270124\t家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在如果有一個員工\n271084\t289645\t他每天都要5點多就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎\n291341\t306727\t都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個\n314924\t338849\t不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?\n340799\t355766\t委員我理解起來她的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說她其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件她的主管也都不知道\n357239\t375094\t那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到\n375794\t391137\t然後沒有一個主管發現,是沒有發現還是不想處理?我想他的直屬都市長也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成,也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解\n392138\t413038\t我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺\n414335\t414355\t好\n443621\t443841\t當然當然當然當然\n470953\t491525\t分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊\n494207\t496548\t王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話、有約談?這件事情是真的還是假的?請回答。\n513086\t540692\t委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣子則那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼\n542476\t567223\t這件事情很重要你知道嗎?因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之?到底處理了什麼?那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢?你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎?他有沒有被約談二月份?\n568723\t590394\t約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查分別為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這一個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁\n590954\t606748\t對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點\n607589\t634068\t當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊\n636309\t656543\t如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊\n658425\t671962\t難怪現在你們調查報告出來分屬很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露\n673524\t680349\t我認為市長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索他當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索\n699122\t726310\t如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉\n727170\t745924\t你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎\n750127\t772530\t當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分屬的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好\n773171\t788177\t那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查\n790482\t811702\t你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立\n812723\t837353\t不成立 內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用啊這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答\n838847\t866485\t這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細\n867105\t894895\t發言委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋\n895515\t896036\t這兩個意見您同意嗎?\n916576\t919760\t好,你承諾會提高位階對不對?提高位階你們要多久的時間?\n935379\t949277\t我們這個是我們依照我們治安法跟那個設施規則定的指引其實我們在指引已經定有這個指引的法效性在我們設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引那如果說在文字上需要再做修正我們再回來再做檢討\n949838\t950499\t王育敏\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請部長\n你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長結果你要捍衛全國勞工的權益你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓然後工作量過大超時打假卡然後不堪負荷輕生你有沒有覺得這件事情真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺發生在你勞動部\n所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格\n去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎\n我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像\n他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開\n但是他的打卡記錄是7點11分到5點01分離開\n所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面\n所規範的最高12小時\n報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊\n所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前\n跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人\n家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在如果有一個員工\n他每天都要5點多就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎\n都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個\n不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?\n委員我理解起來她的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說她其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件她的主管也都不知道\n那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到\n然後沒有一個主管發現,是沒有發現還是不想處理?我想他的直屬都市長也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成,也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解\n我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺\n好\n當然當然當然當然\n分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊\n王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話、有約談?這件事情是真的還是假的?請回答。\n委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣子則那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼\n這件事情很重要你知道嗎?因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之?到底處理了什麼?那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢?你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎?他有沒有被約談二月份?\n約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查分別為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這一個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁\n對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點\n當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊\n如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊\n難怪現在你們調查報告出來分屬很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露\n我認為市長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索他當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索\n如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉\n你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎\n當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分屬的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好\n那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查\n你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立\n不成立 內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用啊這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答\n這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細\n發言委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋\n這兩個意見您同意嗎?\n好,你承諾會提高位階對不對?提高位階你們要多久的時間?\n我們這個是我們依照我們治安法跟那個設施規則定的指引其實我們在指引已經定有這個指引的法效性在我們設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引那如果說在文字上需要再做修正我們再回來再做檢討\n王育敏\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.161 --> 00:07.828\n好謝謝主席我們是不是有請部長\n\n00:14.485 --> 00:38.943\n你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長結果你要捍衛全國勞工的權益你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓然後工作量過大超時打假卡然後不堪負荷輕生你有沒有覺得這件事情真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺發生在你勞動部\n\n00:41.129 --> 00:57.661\n所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格\n\n00:58.061 --> 01:16.227\n去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎\n\n01:17.347 --> 01:32.412\n我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像\n\n01:34.813 --> 02:00.348\n他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開\n\n02:02.881 --> 02:05.388\n但是他的打卡記錄是7點11分到5點01分離開\n\n02:11.087 --> 02:29.587\n所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面\n\n02:33.531 --> 02:34.932\n所規範的最高12小時\n\n03:03.499 --> 03:30.455\n報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊\n\n03:31.127 --> 03:54.657\n所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前\n\n03:57.162 --> 04:11.872\n跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人\n\n04:13.238 --> 04:30.124\n家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在如果有一個員工\n\n04:31.084 --> 04:49.645\n他每天都要5點多就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎\n\n04:51.341 --> 05:06.727\n都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個\n\n05:14.924 --> 05:38.849\n不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?\n\n05:40.799 --> 05:55.766\n委員我理解起來她的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說她其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件她的主管也都不知道\n\n05:57.239 --> 06:15.094\n那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到\n\n06:15.794 --> 06:31.137\n然後沒有一個主管發現,是沒有發現還是不想處理?我想他的直屬都市長也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成,也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解\n\n06:32.138 --> 06:53.038\n我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺\n\n06:54.335 --> 06:54.355\n好\n\n07:23.621 --> 07:23.841\n當然當然當然當然\n\n07:50.953 --> 08:11.525\n分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊\n\n08:14.207 --> 08:16.548\n王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話、有約談?這件事情是真的還是假的?請回答。\n\n08:33.086 --> 09:00.692\n委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣子則那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼\n\n09:02.476 --> 09:27.223\n這件事情很重要你知道嗎?因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之?到底處理了什麼?那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢?你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎?他有沒有被約談二月份?\n\n09:28.723 --> 09:50.394\n約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查分別為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這一個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁\n\n09:50.954 --> 10:06.748\n對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點\n\n10:07.589 --> 10:34.068\n當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊\n\n10:36.309 --> 10:56.543\n如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊\n\n10:58.425 --> 11:11.962\n難怪現在你們調查報告出來分屬很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露\n\n11:13.524 --> 11:20.349\n我認為市長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索他當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索\n\n11:39.122 --> 12:06.310\n如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉\n\n12:07.170 --> 12:25.924\n你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎\n\n12:30.127 --> 12:52.530\n當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分屬的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好\n\n12:53.171 --> 13:08.177\n那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查\n\n13:10.482 --> 13:31.702\n你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立\n\n13:32.723 --> 13:57.353\n不成立內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用啊這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答\n\n13:58.847 --> 14:26.485\n這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細\n\n14:27.105 --> 14:54.895\n發言委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋\n\n14:55.515 --> 14:56.036\n這兩個意見您同意嗎?\n\n15:16.576 --> 15:19.760\n好,你承諾會提高位階對不對?提高位階你們要多久的時間?\n\n15:35.379 --> 15:49.277\n我們這個是我們依照我們治安法跟那個設施規則定的指引其實我們在指引已經定有這個指引的法效性在我們設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引那如果說在文字上需要再做修正我們再回來再做檢討\n\n15:49.838 --> 15:50.499\n王育敏\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.161,"end":7.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請部長"},{"start":14.485,"end":38.943,"text":"你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長結果你要捍衛全國勞工的權益你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓然後工作量過大超時打假卡然後不堪負荷輕生你有沒有覺得這件事情真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺發生在你勞動部"},{"start":41.129,"end":57.661,"text":"所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格"},{"start":58.061,"end":76.227,"text":"去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎"},{"start":77.347,"end":92.412,"text":"我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像"},{"start":94.813,"end":120.348,"text":"他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開"},{"start":122.881,"end":125.388,"text":"但是他的打卡記錄是7點11分到5點01分離開"},{"start":131.087,"end":149.587,"text":"所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面"},{"start":153.531,"end":154.932,"text":"所規範的最高12小時"},{"start":183.499,"end":210.455,"text":"報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊"},{"start":211.127,"end":234.657,"text":"所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前"},{"start":237.162,"end":251.872,"text":"跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人"},{"start":253.238,"end":270.124,"text":"家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在如果有一個員工"},{"start":271.084,"end":289.645,"text":"他每天都要5點多就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎"},{"start":291.341,"end":306.727,"text":"都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個"},{"start":314.924,"end":338.849,"text":"不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?"},{"start":340.799,"end":355.766,"text":"委員我理解起來她的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說她其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件她的主管也都不知道"},{"start":357.239,"end":375.094,"text":"那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到"},{"start":375.794,"end":391.137,"text":"然後沒有一個主管發現,是沒有發現還是不想處理?我想他的直屬都市長也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成,也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解"},{"start":392.138,"end":413.038,"text":"我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺"},{"start":414.335,"end":414.355,"text":"好"},{"start":443.621,"end":443.841,"text":"當然當然當然當然"},{"start":470.953,"end":491.525,"text":"分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊"},{"start":494.207,"end":496.548,"text":"王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話、有約談?這件事情是真的還是假的?請回答。"},{"start":513.086,"end":540.692,"text":"委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣子則那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼"},{"start":542.476,"end":567.223,"text":"這件事情很重要你知道嗎?因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之?到底處理了什麼?那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢?你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎?他有沒有被約談二月份?"},{"start":568.723,"end":590.394,"text":"約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查分別為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這一個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁"},{"start":590.954,"end":606.748,"text":"對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點"},{"start":607.589,"end":634.068,"text":"當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊"},{"start":636.309,"end":656.543,"text":"如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊"},{"start":658.425,"end":671.962,"text":"難怪現在你們調查報告出來分屬很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露"},{"start":673.524,"end":680.349,"text":"我認為市長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索他當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索"},{"start":699.122,"end":726.31,"text":"如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉"},{"start":727.17,"end":745.924,"text":"你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎"},{"start":750.127,"end":772.53,"text":"當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分屬的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好"},{"start":773.171,"end":788.177,"text":"那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查"},{"start":790.482,"end":811.702,"text":"你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立"},{"start":812.723,"end":837.353,"text":"不成立 內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用啊這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答"},{"start":838.847,"end":866.485,"text":"這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細"},{"start":867.105,"end":894.895,"text":"發言委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋"},{"start":895.515,"end":896.036,"text":"這兩個意見您同意嗎?"},{"start":916.576,"end":919.76,"text":"好,你承諾會提高位階對不對?提高位階你們要多久的時間?"},{"start":935.379,"end":949.277,"text":"我們這個是我們依照我們治安法跟那個設施規則定的指引其實我們在指引已經定有這個指引的法效性在我們設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引那如果說在文字上需要再做修正我們再回來再做檢討"},{"start":949.838,"end":950.499,"text":"王育敏"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時10分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，你作為全國千萬勞工的大家長，你要捍衛全國勞工的權益，結果你自己轄下的單位竟然出現公務員被欺壓，工作量過大，超時打假卡，然後不堪負荷輕生的事情，你有沒有覺得這件事情發生在你勞動部，真的格外的荒謬跟諷刺？"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以我昨天道歉了。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛，因為照道理來講，勞動部要做全國最好的表率，你才有權力、有資格去勞檢所有企業單位，要求他們做到勞基法裡面要求的各項標準，結果你們自己都沒有到位。我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工，他生前這樣的情況，勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎？我們辦公室要求你們提供從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟監視錄影帶，看到的情況真的讓人家看了非常的心疼。這樣的影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像、下班的影像，他的上班時間異於常人，都是5點多就到辦公室，所有調出來的監視畫面都是5點多就到辦公室，然後他離開的時間有將近7點的，也有8點半的，你們現在螢幕上看到的這一個是他10月22號早上5點2分就進了辦公室，到了晚上8點35分才離開，但是他的打卡紀錄是7點11分到5點1分離開，所有的出勤紀錄都跟他的實際狀況不一樣，這就是業界大家說的打假卡。一個公務員為什麼要打假卡？為什麼這樣超時上班，而且是連續性的，每天都是超過12個鐘頭，已經超過勞基法所規範的最高12小時？這樣的情況，我今天要問部長的是，到底持續了多久？當時我辦公室要求你們提供的資料是到10月22號，這是你們提供也是你們昨天公布的，10月22號之前呢？到底他這樣超時上班的情況持續多久時間了？你們整整兩個禮拜的調查，調查出來什麼結果？有多久？請說。"],["何部長佩珊：我請人事處。"],["王委員育敏：還無法掌握嗎？這個員工生前上班的情況還無法掌握嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請人事處長回答一下。"],["王委員育敏：好，請說。"],["姜處長碧琳：報告委員，11月4號當天發生事件的時候，我們人事處就查出他一整年出到勤紀錄，這一年來他完全正常，其中7月份他還有到日本去旅遊。"],["王委員育敏：所以最密集的就是最近這段時間？他早上五點到辦公室，是從幾號開始？是10月22號嗎？還是更早之前？"],["姜處長碧琳：沒有，更早之前。"],["王委員育敏：幾月？"],["姜處長碧琳：因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是……"],["王委員育敏：你們不是有調監視器嗎？顯然他的刷卡紀錄跟監視器是不吻合的。"],["姜處長碧琳：對。"],["王委員育敏：你們監視器看到是多久以前？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為委員當初要求監視器紀錄，我們有跟大樓的管委會要求，它的保存時間一般只有15天，所以15天以前的他們並沒有……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們沒有辦法掌握？"],["蔡署長孟良：對……"],["王委員育敏：你們有沒有問過他的家人？"],["蔡署長孟良：家屬的部分其實是有在了解他的實際狀況，跟他共同工作的同事我們也了解。跟委員誠實報告，確實在這之前他也長期都很早到，這是目前實際的情況……"],["王委員育敏：這就是問題之所在，如果有一個員工他每天都要五點多就上班，長時間每天超過12個鐘頭，這麼長的時間，為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道、沒有人主動關心，沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣、是不是需要幫忙？他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎？都沒有人主動去解決他的問題，還是覺得這是理所當然？壓榨勞工就是這樣子，你的事情沒有辦好，這就是你該做的事！你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這就是我為什麼要懲處直接督導他的副分署長跟秘書室主任的原因。"],["王委員育敏：那你們調查清楚了嗎？這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態？我要問的是這個。"],["何部長佩珊：您是說所有員工的……"],["王委員育敏：不是，這一位已經輕生的員工、不幸的員工。"],["何部長佩珊：因為他的打卡……"],["王委員育敏：到目前為止……"],["何部長佩珊：目前看起來是正常的。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細、不夠深入。我這樣一問，部長竟然都回答不出來，這不是一個禮拜前才發生的事情，已經是兩個禮拜以前發生的事情！那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈？"],["何部長佩珊：我理解起來，他的打卡紀錄都是正常的，因為他……"],["王委員育敏：就是假的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對、對……"],["王委員育敏：我現在問你的是，你們什麼時候知道他其實都是那麼早上班、都是打假卡？"],["何部長佩珊：其實我想如果沒有這次的事件，他的主管也都不知道。"],["王委員育敏：這就很離譜啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對！所以……"],["王委員育敏：一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班……"],["何部長佩珊：所以非常離譜！所以我去懲處他的直屬督導、最身邊的那兩位，這就是為什麼我要懲處……"],["王委員育敏：這就出現了非常大的問題嘛！一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼超工時地工作……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：那麼早到，然後沒有一個主管發現！"],["何部長佩珊：而且他……"],["王委員育敏：是沒有發現還是不想處理？"],["何部長佩珊：我想他的直屬督導也許會認為理所當然，因為你的工作你就是要完成，也許！對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解，所以我……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得是離譜到極點！"],["何部長佩珊：這就是為什麼我要懲處他們兩位的原因。"],["王委員育敏：離譜到極點！所以這不完全是部長所說缺人的原因，有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊！人事總處就某一部分也講對了，是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題。你竟然完全沒有感覺、末梢神經麻痺，員工的狀態完全無法掌握，而且已經是長時期的。我要求你們要再交出來你們看到的錄影帶裡面、調查出來的，這個員工到底從什麼時候開始其實就已經出現這樣的狀態，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們再去調資料給委員。"],["王委員育敏：不是到10月22日。另外我要求部長，你要下令去各個單位，你勞動部很大，每一個組織裡面還有沒有這種超時工作、打假卡的問題？"],["何部長佩珊：好，當然。"],["王委員育敏：全面的，這個是你的責任。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["王委員育敏：我很擔心這是長期以來的組織文化所造成的，大家都被逼著打假卡，所以這個部分你也必須通通去清查一遍有沒有這樣的情況，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是。好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["王委員育敏：這樣的悲劇不能再發生了。"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["王委員育敏：第二件事情，我要問的是勞動部有沒有吃案的問題。剛剛特別提到，分署很多同仁抱怨連連，也透過不同的管道投訴，結果我們辦公室問了你們，你們說投訴到次長這件事情是假消息，我聽了嚇一跳！媒體報導得這麼真切，你們回復說這個是媒體亂報導的、這是假消息。我要問你……"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有說假消息，我只是說我那邊查不到而已。"],["王委員育敏：那有沒有這件事呢？王安邦次長有沒有跟謝分署長談話、有約談，這件事情是真的還是假的？請回答。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，如果根據部裡的紀錄是沒有的，可是如果根據外界這樣子的那麼多報導，也許是真的……"],["王委員育敏：那你可以去求證啊！你可以去求證王次長啊！連這通電話都不能打嗎？有沒有跟他求證嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想如果王次長有需要的話，他應該會告訴我啦……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們也沒有通電話，你也沒去跟他求證？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有去跟他了解這件事。"],["王委員育敏：這麼重要的一個線索，那你們調查報告在寫什麼！這一件事情很重要，你知道嗎？因為這代表的是，如果分署裡面的同仁2月份已經投訴，而且次長已經出面，那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之，到底處理了什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：因為部裡目前查的……"],["王委員育敏：那你們怎麼會這部分都完全不想去掌握，也不想去了解呢？你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎？他有沒有被約談、2月份？約談完之後，他再下令叫大家……說誰洩密，又去查說誰洩密？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要跟您澄清，2月份他被約談這件事，不在我調查小組的調查範圍。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼不調查？"],["何部長佩珊：因為它並非……我調查小組只有三個重點，第一個，謝宜容分署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁？第二個，謝宜容分署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁？"],["王委員育敏：對啊！那2月份，涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他的同仁啊？你為什麼要主動排除？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，我們調查起來，我們已經證實他有霸凌其他同仁，可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面，不是我們調查的重點。"],["王委員育敏：當然是重點，代表那個時候同仁已經反映嘛！那個時候同仁已經反映，代表你勞動部的次長已經知道。我們講霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報，那今天發生在分署的事件，勞動部如果在2月份已經知道，為什麼這一段時間你什麼都沒有做、什麼都沒有處理？我就問你，520上任，你知道有這件事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道、完全不知道。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！這就是問題！如果這件事情對於分署同仁來講是一件重大的事情，他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理，結果你520上任根本就不知道這件事情！"],["何部長佩珊：完全不知道。"],["王委員育敏：那不用去查嗎？難道2月份，分署這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼……全部就當作沒有發生哪？難怪現在你們調查報告出來，分署很多同仁的情緒還在憤恨不平，他覺得從頭到尾勞動部你就是漠視他們的一些聲音。"],["何部長佩珊：其實委員，他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了，包括李宇翔議員的臉書等等都有披露，所以……"],["王委員育敏：但是就調查這件事情，我認為次長有沒有去約談分署長的這件事情也是很重要的線索，它當然必須在你調查的範圍。你們主動排除，我覺得非常詭異喔！不知道為什麼要主動排除，這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力，還是有什麼政治因素干擾，我不知道，但是就調查事件本身，那是一個重要的線索。如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理，勞動部也已經知曉、是次長級的人物，為什麼那個時候沒有處理？還是那時候有反映，次長有跟部長反映，但是部長也覺得沒有關係？我覺得整件事情你要調查就調查個澈底，你才知道環節是出現在哪個。結果你們昨天公布的這個調查，我覺得你們自己有主動把一些資訊剔除掉，你就只鎖定你想要交代說這一位吳員的輕生跟霸凌事件無關，他只是工作壓力太大，你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛！但是你不能去排除，他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎？所交辦的這個責任，他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎？當然都有關係啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！是上面交辦……"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼可以完全排除呢？所以我覺得這件事情勞動部有吃案的嫌疑，當分署的同仁已經反映到次長，你們就沒有下文，你說也沒有紀錄、什麼都沒有。你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有，這就是吃案。"],["何部長佩珊：我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：好，那你就重啟調查。"],["何部長佩珊：對、對，我們政風……"],["王委員育敏：你就重啟調查，勞動部不能做錯誤的示範，不能吃案。"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在馬上，就是承諾委員，就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜容分署長，我們現在即刻重啟調查。"],["王委員育敏：是，你要給外界一個交代啊！你要給外界一個交代，不可以有吃案的事情。","另外一個我要講的是，你們現在所受理的這些案件，我要求你們提供，你們說到目前為止受理的職務遭受不法侵害的這些案件總共才7件，結果你們受理的7件通通都不成立！不成立、內容不明確。如果以你們現在調查的一個心態跟方法的話，投訴100件也沒有用！到底問題出在哪裡？之前人家在反映的時候，也說分署沒有這一些事情，結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立，怎麼會有這麼大的落差？這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這7件是北分署受理員工的申訴，但是他的對象其實是同儕，同事跟同事之間。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但同事跟同事之間都沒有……我要講的就是你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關，結果他霸凌那麼嚴重；第二個，即使是同事跟同事之間，也沒有一件成立的，不覺得很有問題嗎？是不是你們的標準太嚴格，還是調查不仔細？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為所有分署在執行都是依照我們的安全防護要點，都是有外部委員加入我們的調查。"],["王委員育敏：但是召集人是你們自己人。"],["蔡署長孟良：對，召集人是依照我們的安全防護要點……"],["王委員育敏：我要求你們要重新去檢視，都不成立其實是不太合理的，從這一次我們就看到，之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題，結果認真調查起來，霸凌案是成立了。另外一個，最後我要講，很多的基層公務員也「挫著等」，他們擔心受到職場霸凌，沒有保障，所以他們昨天就發出聲音，並有兩個訴求：第一個，就是職務遭受不法侵害的預防指引要提高位階；第二個，公務員一體適用職安法，這兩個意見，您同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，第一個，提高位階，我一定會做。第二個，公務員能不能適用，這個是人總……"],["王委員育敏：好，你承諾會提高位階，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是、是，還有保訓會，必須尊重他們的意見……"],["王委員育敏：好，提高位階，你們要多久的時間？有關這個指引提高位階。"],["何部長佩珊：請署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們依照職安法跟設施規則訂的指引，其實我們已經訂有指引的法效性，在我們的設施規則已經明定要參照中央主管訂定的這個指引，如果說文字上需要再做修正，我們會再做檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：不、不、不，委員，我想我們儘量來把它入法，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：好，部長允諾了。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：我要求就是要提高到法律的位階，好不好？讓公務員可以安心，因為這個事件大家看了都怕，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。我們衛環委員都問到飽。","接續我們請劉建國委員發言，劉建國發言完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}}