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\"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 71.441, \"end\": 71.581, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 71.581, \"end\": 71.721, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 71.721, \"end\": 71.801, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 71.801, \"end\": 71.981, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 71.981, \"end\": 72.481, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 72.481, \"end\": 72.781, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 72.781, \"end\": 72.961, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 72.961, \"end\": 73.161, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 73.161, \"end\": 73.801, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 73.801, \"end\": 74.162, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 74.162, \"end\": 74.382, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.382, \"end\": 74.642, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 96.418, \"end\": 96.679, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 96.679, \"end\": 96.919, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 96.919, \"end\": 97.159, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 97.159, \"end\": 97.419, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 97.419, \"end\": 97.579, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.579, \"end\": 97.599, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 97.599, \"end\": 97.619, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 97.619, \"end\": 97.64, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 97.64, \"end\": 97.78, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 97.78, \"end\": 97.8, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 97.8, \"end\": 97.82, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 97.82, \"end\": 97.84, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 97.84, \"end\": 97.86, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.86, \"end\": 97.94, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 97.94, \"end\": 97.96, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 103.285, \"end\": 113.092, \"text\": \"拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 103.285, \"end\": 103.845, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"訪\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 103.845, \"end\": 104.226, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 104.226, \"end\": 104.366, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 104.366, \"end\": 104.546, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 104.546, \"end\": 104.766, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 104.766, \"end\": 104.986, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"楚\", 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{\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 108.349, \"end\": 108.509, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 108.509, \"end\": 108.629, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.629, \"end\": 108.729, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.729, \"end\": 108.929, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 108.929, \"end\": 108.949, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 108.949, \"end\": 109.109, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 109.109, \"end\": 109.249, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 109.249, \"end\": 109.269, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 109.269, \"end\": 109.289, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 109.289, \"end\": 109.369, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 109.369, \"end\": 109.389, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 110.17, \"end\": 110.25, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 110.25, \"end\": 110.29, \"score\": 0.374}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 110.29, \"end\": 110.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 110.31, \"end\": 110.33, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 110.33, \"end\": 110.41, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 110.41, \"end\": 110.43, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 110.43, \"end\": 110.69, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 110.69, \"end\": 110.71, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 110.71, \"end\": 110.85, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 110.85, \"end\": 110.93, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 110.93, \"end\": 110.95, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 110.95, \"end\": 110.99, \"score\": 0.405}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 110.99, \"end\": 111.011, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 111.011, \"end\": 111.091, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.091, \"end\": 111.191, \"score\": 0.321}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 111.191, \"end\": 111.291, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 111.291, \"end\": 111.311, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 111.311, \"end\": 111.331, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"域\", \"start\": 111.331, \"end\": 111.351, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 111.351, \"end\": 111.551, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.551, \"end\": 111.791, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"輔\"}, {\"word\": \"佐\", \"start\": 111.791, \"end\": 112.111, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 112.111, \"end\": 112.251, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 112.251, \"end\": 112.271, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 112.271, \"end\": 112.291, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 112.291, \"end\": 112.412, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 112.412, \"end\": 112.452, \"score\": 0.077}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 112.452, \"end\": 112.472, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 112.472, \"end\": 112.492, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 112.492, \"end\": 112.592, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 112.592, \"end\": 112.612, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 112.612, \"end\": 112.632, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 112.632, \"end\": 112.812, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 112.812, \"end\": 112.832, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 112.832, \"end\": 112.932, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 112.932, \"end\": 113.072, \"score\": 0.602}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 113.072, \"end\": 113.092, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 131.365, \"end\": 137.228, \"text\": \"所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 131.365, \"end\": 131.465, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 131.465, \"end\": 131.525, \"score\": 0.228}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 131.525, \"end\": 131.665, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 131.665, \"end\": 131.905, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 131.905, \"end\": 132.065, \"score\": 0.61}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 132.065, \"end\": 132.405, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 132.405, \"end\": 132.706, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 132.706, \"end\": 132.846, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"野\", \"start\": 132.846, \"end\": 133.106, \"score\": 0.632}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.106, \"end\": 133.226, \"score\": 0.575}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 133.226, \"end\": 133.906, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 133.906, 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\"沒\", \"start\": 630.23, \"end\": 630.35, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 630.35, \"end\": 630.43, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 630.43, \"end\": 630.45, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 630.45, \"end\": 630.51, \"score\": 0.291}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 630.51, \"end\": 630.53, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 630.53, \"end\": 630.83, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 630.83, \"end\": 630.85, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 635.851, \"end\": 636.011, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 636.011, \"end\": 636.031, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,229 --> 00:00:03,893\n李俊英秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:09,711 --> 00:00:16,436\n吳委員好早安進入我的主題之前我想先就教於您我想昨天您應該也看到新聞了就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會那理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等\n\n3\n00:00:37,293 --> 00:01:00,644\n但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,759 --> 00:01:21,264\n跟吳委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有\n\n5\n00:01:21,884 --> 00:01:37,960\n國智輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且崇越還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在國智輝部長手上他也有如實申報第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容\n\n6\n00:01:43,285 --> 00:01:53,092\n拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海\n\n7\n00:02:11,365 --> 00:02:17,228\n所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員\n\n8\n00:02:30,293 --> 00:02:31,254\n我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長\n\n9\n00:02:52,853 --> 00:03:18,933\n我說台灣的財政融緊nolonger但是財政災難comingsoon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁\n\n10\n00:03:22,901 --> 00:03:42,229\n我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不統一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁\n\n11\n00:03:51,332 --> 00:04:18,385\n所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁\n\n12\n00:04:19,605 --> 00:04:43,383\n跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒人賣算就這點來秘書長您怎麼看\n\n13\n00:04:47,777 --> 00:04:52,200\n其實監察院現在審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條\n\n14\n00:05:03,386 --> 00:05:14,808\n他每年的決算都必須由審計部來審但在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來\n\n15\n00:05:32,252 --> 00:05:55,969\n與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當\n\n16\n00:06:01,813 --> 00:06:01,853\n吳思瑤吳思瑤\n\n17\n00:06:26,963 --> 00:06:31,825\n到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙\n\n18\n00:06:40,757 --> 00:06:42,839\n所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量\n\n19\n00:07:04,841 --> 00:07:18,076\n我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所\n\n20\n00:07:20,158 --> 00:07:41,602\n後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把釋權一併的考量清楚\n\n21\n00:07:42,102 --> 00:08:10,521\n又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括非常多的非法訂設服的補助會加碼再加碼又包括閒置的文字館浪費公堂會越來越多又包括非常多的不經濟支出拼命蓋沒有配套所以呢下一頁\n\n22\n00:08:11,562 --> 00:08:18,368\n就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字管的部分你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字管金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了\n\n23\n00:08:28,197 --> 00:08:46,631\n他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來\n\n24\n00:08:48,292 --> 00:08:57,176\n衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行攝服的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊\n\n25\n00:09:10,322 --> 00:09:28,188\n右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有\n\n26\n00:09:29,008 --> 00:09:55,701\n所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦\n\n27\n00:09:56,778 --> 00:10:11,445\n做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法\n\n28\n00:10:12,205 --> 00:10:30,850\n我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼\n\n29\n00:10:35,851 --> 00:10:36,031\n謝謝副委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3229\t3893\t李俊英秘書長\n9711\t16436\t吳委員好 早安 進入我的主題之前我想先就教於您 我想昨天您應該也看到新聞了 就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會 那理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等\n37293\t60644\t但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎\n66759\t81264\t跟吳委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有\n81884\t97960\t國智輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且崇越還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在國智輝部長手上他也有如實申報第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容\n103285\t113092\t拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海\n131365\t137228\t所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員\n150293\t151254\t我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長\n172853\t198933\t我說台灣的財政融緊no longer但是財政災難coming soon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁\n202901\t222229\t我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不統一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁\n231332\t258385\t所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁\n259605\t283383\t跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒人賣算就這點來秘書長您怎麼看\n287777\t292200\t其實監察院現在審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條\n303386\t314808\t他每年的決算都必須由審計部來審但在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來\n332252\t355969\t與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當\n361813\t361853\t吳思瑤 吳思瑤\n386963\t391825\t到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙\n400757\t402839\t所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量\n424841\t438076\t我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所\n440158\t461602\t後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把釋權一併的考量清楚\n462102\t490521\t又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括非常多的非法訂設服的補助會加碼再加碼又包括閒置的文字館浪費公堂會越來越多又包括非常多的不經濟支出拼命蓋沒有配套所以呢下一頁\n491562\t498368\t就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字管的部分你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字管金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了\n508197\t526631\t他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來\n528292\t537176\t衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行攝服的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊\n550322\t568188\t右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有\n569008\t595701\t所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦\n596778\t611445\t做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法\n612205\t630850\t我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼\n635851\t636031\t謝謝副委員\n","txt":"李俊英秘書長\n吳委員好 早安 進入我的主題之前我想先就教於您 我想昨天您應該也看到新聞了 就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會 那理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等\n但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎\n跟吳委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有\n國智輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且崇越還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在國智輝部長手上他也有如實申報第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容\n拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海\n所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員\n我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長\n我說台灣的財政融緊no longer但是財政災難coming soon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁\n我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不統一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁\n所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁\n跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒人賣算就這點來秘書長您怎麼看\n其實監察院現在審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條\n他每年的決算都必須由審計部來審但在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來\n與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當\n吳思瑤 吳思瑤\n到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙\n所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量\n我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所\n後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把釋權一併的考量清楚\n又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括非常多的非法訂設服的補助會加碼再加碼又包括閒置的文字館浪費公堂會越來越多又包括非常多的不經濟支出拼命蓋沒有配套所以呢下一頁\n就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字管的部分你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字管金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了\n他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來\n衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行攝服的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊\n右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有\n所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦\n做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法\n我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼\n謝謝副委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.229 --> 00:03.893\n李俊英秘書長\n\n00:09.711 --> 00:16.436\n吳委員好早安進入我的主題之前我想先就教於您我想昨天您應該也看到新聞了就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會那理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等\n\n00:37.293 --> 01:00.644\n但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎\n\n01:06.759 --> 01:21.264\n跟吳委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有\n\n01:21.884 --> 01:37.960\n國智輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且崇越還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在國智輝部長手上他也有如實申報第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容\n\n01:43.285 --> 01:53.092\n拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海\n\n02:11.365 --> 02:17.228\n所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員\n\n02:30.293 --> 02:31.254\n我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長\n\n02:52.853 --> 03:18.933\n我說台灣的財政融緊nolonger但是財政災難comingsoon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁\n\n03:22.901 --> 03:42.229\n我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不統一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁\n\n03:51.332 --> 04:18.385\n所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁\n\n04:19.605 --> 04:43.383\n跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒人賣算就這點來秘書長您怎麼看\n\n04:47.777 --> 04:52.200\n其實監察院現在審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條\n\n05:03.386 --> 05:14.808\n他每年的決算都必須由審計部來審但在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來\n\n05:32.252 --> 05:55.969\n與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當\n\n06:01.813 --> 06:01.853\n吳思瑤吳思瑤\n\n06:26.963 --> 06:31.825\n到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙\n\n06:40.757 --> 06:42.839\n所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量\n\n07:04.841 --> 07:18.076\n我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所\n\n07:20.158 --> 07:41.602\n後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把釋權一併的考量清楚\n\n07:42.102 --> 08:10.521\n又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括非常多的非法訂設服的補助會加碼再加碼又包括閒置的文字館浪費公堂會越來越多又包括非常多的不經濟支出拼命蓋沒有配套所以呢下一頁\n\n08:11.562 --> 08:18.368\n就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字管的部分你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字管金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了\n\n08:28.197 --> 08:46.631\n他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來\n\n08:48.292 --> 08:57.176\n衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行攝服的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊\n\n09:10.322 --> 09:28.188\n右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有\n\n09:29.008 --> 09:55.701\n所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦\n\n09:56.778 --> 10:11.445\n做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法\n\n10:12.205 --> 10:30.850\n我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼\n\n10:35.851 --> 10:36.031\n謝謝副委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.229,"end":3.893,"text":"李俊英秘書長"},{"start":9.711,"end":16.436,"text":"吳委員好 早安 進入我的主題之前我想先就教於您 我想昨天您應該也看到新聞了 就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會 那理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等"},{"start":37.293,"end":60.644,"text":"但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎"},{"start":66.759,"end":81.264,"text":"跟吳委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有"},{"start":81.884,"end":97.96,"text":"國智輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且崇越還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在國智輝部長手上他也有如實申報第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容"},{"start":103.285,"end":113.092,"text":"拜訪9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海"},{"start":131.365,"end":137.228,"text":"所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員"},{"start":150.293,"end":151.254,"text":"我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長"},{"start":172.853,"end":198.933,"text":"我說台灣的財政融緊no longer但是財政災難coming soon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁"},{"start":202.901,"end":222.229,"text":"我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不統一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁"},{"start":231.332,"end":258.385,"text":"所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁"},{"start":259.605,"end":283.383,"text":"跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒人賣算就這點來秘書長您怎麼看"},{"start":287.777,"end":292.2,"text":"其實監察院現在審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條"},{"start":303.386,"end":314.808,"text":"他每年的決算都必須由審計部來審但在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來"},{"start":332.252,"end":355.969,"text":"與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當"},{"start":361.813,"end":361.853,"text":"吳思瑤 吳思瑤"},{"start":386.963,"end":391.825,"text":"到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙"},{"start":400.757,"end":402.839,"text":"所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量"},{"start":424.841,"end":438.076,"text":"我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所"},{"start":440.158,"end":461.602,"text":"後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把釋權一併的考量清楚"},{"start":462.102,"end":490.521,"text":"又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括非常多的非法訂設服的補助會加碼再加碼又包括閒置的文字館浪費公堂會越來越多又包括非常多的不經濟支出拼命蓋沒有配套所以呢下一頁"},{"start":491.562,"end":498.368,"text":"就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字管的部分你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字管金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了"},{"start":508.197,"end":526.631,"text":"他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來"},{"start":528.292,"end":537.176,"text":"衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行攝服的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊"},{"start":550.322,"end":568.188,"text":"右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有"},{"start":569.008,"end":595.701,"text":"所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦"},{"start":596.778,"end":611.445,"text":"做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法"},{"start":612.205,"end":630.85,"text":"我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼"},{"start":635.851,"end":636.031,"text":"謝謝副委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時19分）謝謝，有請李俊俋秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長早安。進入我的主題之前，我想先就教於您，我想昨天您應當也看到新聞了，就是有國民黨的委員已經提案列案，要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭智輝個人的調查委員會，理由是委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等，但是郭部長非常清楚地說明，他過去任職的公司股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下，因為財產申報跟您有關，您對於立法院用這樣一個跟它行使法案權、預算權毫不相干的調查委員會，來針對部會首長個人、私人的財務狀況，這樣合宜嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟吳委員報告，兩個回應，第一個，有關郭智輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分，根據我們的資料，他是8月19號報來本院的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分，沒有！郭智輝部長，包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報，而且崇越，還有還未上市的高毅，報的主要股份都是在郭智輝部長手上，他也有如實申報。第二個部分，如果成立所謂的調查委員會，這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯！"],["李秘書長俊俋：憲判9號其實說得非常清楚，如果立法院沒有證明跟它行使職權有相關關係的話，它沒有辦法成立調查委員會。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝秘書長的說明，跟我的想法也一致！立委要進行調查的權力，必然是跟我們的核心權力領域相關輔佐性的一個權力，而不是要查就查、包山包海，所以我也不了解，在野黨的委員已經正式列案了，我們可能這周五的院會就會處理到了，針對一個部會首長私人財務要成立調查委員會，我都認為劃錯重點、搞錯方向，如果對於個別的官員有財產申報的質疑，大可透過監察院去檢舉，都可以！也謝謝您剛剛的說明，郭部長8月份已經登載申報他的財產。"],["李秘書長俊俋：他8月19來……"],["吳委員思瑤：8月19！好，謝謝您的說明。我進入今天就預算論預算，我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長，我說，臺灣的財政榮景no longer，但是財政災難coming soon，這跟監察院大有關係。3分鐘的財劃法審查通過，送出委員會，6,612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方，中央可用的財源就大幅縮減，剩下4,159億，我反對為修而修、為快而快的財劃法，主要來自於它分配不正義，它事權不統一，它財政沒有紀律，它配套完全沒有提出，對於地制法、公債法、行政區劃法等等，該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視。其實這當中財政沒有紀律，就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係。所以財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎，而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提，不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一，否則只有收入，不討論支出，這部法就不叫財政收支劃分法，它就變成財政收入劃分法了。跟監察院相關的部分，我想就教於您，我個人認為如果這樣的財劃法被通過了，事權沒有統一，地方獲得了大把銀子，它也沒有去規定要用在哪裡，財政紀律大出問題，未來你們監察院或是審計部會忙個沒完，就這點，秘書長您怎麼看？"],["李秘書長俊俋：其實現在監察院跟審計部都非常忙，就地方的財政，事實上根據審計法第六十九條、決算法第二十一條以及監察院巡迴監察辦法第二條，它每年的決算都必須由審計部來審，在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室，它會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適地運用來提出問題。以112年度來講，總共審計部提出了1,760項有問題的地方。"],["吳委員思瑤：1,760項？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，提供給監察院，然後監察院再從裡面選出最嚴重的案子予以調查。所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形？我以前也擔任過嘉義市副市長，所以我對這個非常清楚，過去縣市常常有這種挪用的情況，比如說，公益彩券就是常見的情形，把本來要補助給弱勢團體的公益彩券全部拿去辦活動用，這個就是過去發生的，而今年112年度剛送來的部分，包括財政運用不當，或者像有些館舍變成蚊子館，也都是過去常常發生的情形，所以如果所謂的錢大量下放，但事權沒有跟著走的話，未來到底責任要追誰的？這個是非常大的問題。所以其實財政收支劃分法還有一個很重要的，我想吳委員很清楚，它還包括到底多少人在分配，包括現在其實財政收支劃分法還有鄉鎮的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，鄉鎮市。"],["李秘書長俊俋：鄉鎮問題要不要討論？這個都是問題，所以就我們審計部的觀點來看，未來只會更忙。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您剛剛講112年度已經有1,760案被審計部門提出它的財政不經濟、財政不紀律，我想財劃法如果這樣6,612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話，你未來可能是十倍、百倍的業務量。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我再跟吳委員做一個例子說明，比如說在防疫期間，我們對醫療院所有一些補貼，過去曾發生一個事，就是補貼已經由衛福部撥到縣市了，結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所，後來去查，發現原來是放在縣市那裡，這個情形就是重大缺失。"],["吳委員思瑤：這都比比皆是、罄竹難書。所以我整理出財政部也觀察到這樣的傾向跟過去發生的案例，如果大量地從中央釋出財源，但是沒有把事權一併地考量清楚，又或者地方政府沒有辦法提出它的錢要怎麼花的具體計畫的話，勢必會造成地方財政紀律的惡化，包括非常多的非法定社福補助會加碼再加碼；又包括閒置的蚊子館，浪費公帑會越來越多；又包括非常多的不經濟支出，拚命蓋、沒有配套。","所以就如同您剛講的，我也挑出了一些案例，在蚊子館的部分，你看花蓮縣政府被你們提案糾正了，花蓮縣蓋了一個環保科技園區，結果成為蚊子館；金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了，它要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化再利用建置電力博物館，這是好事喔！可是蓋了卻沒有好的評估跟配套，也是蚊子館，這是蚊子館的部分。在加碼非法定社會補助的部分，即社福支出，衛福部、各地方政府，這是你們非常大的量，也就是老人福利、老人津貼是加碼再加碼，甚至還發生主計處今年扣了七個縣市的補助款，就因為他們胡亂地濫用資源來進行社福的發放，因為縣市首長都想當散財童子。右邊的案例，雲林縣政府、嘉義縣政府也都被你們糾正了，同樣是非法定及超過法定標準的社福支出。不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多，被你們糾正的苗栗、臺中市政府都有。所以回應您剛剛所說的，確實，如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導制度，光是現行的制度你們就抓不完了，未來更是大放送、乾坤大挪移，從中央挖的錢就這樣下放到地方。","所以我說期期以為不可，做政治，但是要了解財政，不要只當政治的精算師，而不是財政的精算師，切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法。我在這裡也期待你們能持續強力地發揮你們的審計權，今年審預算，我們更可以看到監察院的存在是非常重要，否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去，未來又沒有審計的力道，又沒有監察權的行使，那麼臺灣國家預算的制度會崩壞，我們的財政紀律也會大大地受到傷害。我們繼續努力，謝謝秘書長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員進行發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-14","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","謝龍介","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310201_00011"}}}