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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"冠\", \"start\": 759.224, \"end\": 759.244, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 759.244, \"end\": 759.264, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:04,994\n總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對\n\n2\n00:00:21,045 --> 00:00:49,986\n主要政策裡面是包含科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些\n\n3\n00:00:51,254 --> 00:00:51,314\n陳冠廷\n\n4\n00:01:08,504 --> 00:01:29,525\n接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查\n\n5\n00:01:30,586 --> 00:01:42,015\n那我想請教一下,後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估,安全的資格評估,主要是用哪個單位來審核評估,多久評估一次?\n\n6\n00:01:43,884 --> 00:02:09,782\n跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格如果他有問題的話,可能我們就不會錄取他,這是第一點\n\n7\n00:02:10,763 --> 00:02:26,901\n進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次\n\n8\n00:02:27,984 --> 00:02:46,782\n我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核\n\n9\n00:02:47,823 --> 00:03:10,259\n謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。比如說過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。\n\n10\n00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:35,699\n第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍\n\n11\n00:03:37,020 --> 00:04:02,710\n其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那\n\n12\n00:04:03,570 --> 00:04:32,876\n我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統\n\n13\n00:04:33,536 --> 00:04:34,157\n我講這麼多的意思是什麼?\n\n14\n00:04:56,437 --> 00:05:14,647\n就是我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的安全的合可的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊\n\n15\n00:05:15,327 --> 00:05:31,361\n如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常地是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的知識等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關\n\n16\n00:05:32,742 --> 00:05:55,439\n那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局也講完了,跟國防部也質詢過,就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話,必須要重新審理出一套安全合可的方法。所謂安全合可的方法就是說,當你的securityclearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密,\n\n17\n00:05:57,060 --> 00:06:19,717\n必須在這些政府是共通的就是說我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道\n\n18\n00:06:20,708 --> 00:06:42,407\n安全核可配合needtoknow這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外\n\n19\n00:06:42,907 --> 00:06:58,063\n除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源\n\n20\n00:06:59,364 --> 00:07:25,023\n但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格層級\n\n21\n00:07:26,444 --> 00:07:46,344\n其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在\n\n22\n00:07:48,232 --> 00:07:58,027\n應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式\n\n23\n00:07:59,013 --> 00:08:21,501\n那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解不是這個意思你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說\n\n24\n00:08:23,016 --> 00:08:39,806\n除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的\n\n25\n00:08:40,826 --> 00:09:01,607\n並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員\n\n26\n00:09:02,864 --> 00:09:24,415\n那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛\n\n27\n00:09:25,015 --> 00:09:37,591\n所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長\n\n28\n00:09:47,325 --> 00:10:01,420\n市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差\n\n29\n00:10:02,401 --> 00:10:17,527\n是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個\n\n30\n00:10:20,808 --> 00:10:41,498\n你覺得你這樣的說法,未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思,張偉,再麻煩給我一點時間。我簡短的回應。第一點,我所謂健康的逆差,從美國的角度來講,應是配合他的政策。當他的政策是要發展製造業,是要發展人工智慧,是要發展先進製造業的時候,我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體。\n\n31\n00:10:42,318 --> 00:10:42,418\n這第一點\n\n32\n00:11:04,420 --> 00:11:30,821\n第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據\n\n33\n00:11:32,162 --> 00:11:49,294\n分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明\n\n34\n00:11:50,054 --> 00:12:11,258\n那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話\n\n35\n00:12:16,653 --> 00:12:38,282\n我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們\n\n36\n00:12:39,224 --> 00:12:39,264\n陳冠廷\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t4994\t總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對\n21045\t49986\t主要政策裡面是包含科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些\n51254\t51314\t陳冠廷\n68504\t89525\t接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查\n90586\t102015\t那我想請教一下,後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估,安全的資格評估,主要是用哪個單位來審核評估,多久評估一次?\n103884\t129782\t跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格如果他有問題的話,可能我們就不會錄取他,這是第一點\n130763\t146901\t進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次\n147984\t166782\t我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核\n167823\t190259\t謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。比如說過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。\n190879\t215699\t第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍\n217020\t242710\t其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那\n243570\t272876\t我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統\n273536\t274157\t我講這麼多的意思是什麼?\n296437\t314647\t就是我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的安全的合可的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊\n315327\t331361\t如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常地是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的知識等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關\n332742\t355439\t那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局也講完了,跟國防部也質詢過,就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話,必須要重新審理出一套安全合可的方法。所謂安全合可的方法就是說,當你的security clearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密,\n357060\t379717\t必須在這些政府是共通的就是說我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道\n380708\t402407\t安全核可配合need to know這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外\n402907\t418063\t除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源\n419364\t445023\t但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格層級\n446444\t466344\t其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在\n468232\t478027\t應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式\n479013\t501501\t那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解不是這個意思你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說\n503016\t519806\t除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的\n520826\t541607\t並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員\n542864\t564415\t那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛\n565015\t577591\t所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長\n587325\t601420\t市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差\n602401\t617527\t是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個\n620808\t641498\t你覺得你這樣的說法,未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思,張偉,再麻煩給我一點時間。我簡短的回應。第一點,我所謂健康的逆差,從美國的角度來講,應是配合他的政策。當他的政策是要發展製造業,是要發展人工智慧,是要發展先進製造業的時候,我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體。\n642318\t642418\t這第一點\n664420\t690821\t第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好 非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據\n692162\t709294\t分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明\n710054\t731258\t那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話\n736653\t758282\t我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們\n759224\t759264\t陳冠廷\n","txt":"總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對\n主要政策裡面是包含科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些\n陳冠廷\n接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查\n那我想請教一下,後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估,安全的資格評估,主要是用哪個單位來審核評估,多久評估一次?\n跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格如果他有問題的話,可能我們就不會錄取他,這是第一點\n進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次\n我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核\n謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。比如說過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。\n第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍\n其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那\n我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統\n我講這麼多的意思是什麼?\n就是我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的安全的合可的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊\n如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常地是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的知識等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關\n那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局也講完了,跟國防部也質詢過,就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話,必須要重新審理出一套安全合可的方法。所謂安全合可的方法就是說,當你的security clearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密,\n必須在這些政府是共通的就是說我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道\n安全核可配合need to know這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外\n除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源\n但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格層級\n其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在\n應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式\n那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解不是這個意思你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說\n除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的\n並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員\n那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛\n所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長\n市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差\n是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個\n你覺得你這樣的說法,未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思,張偉,再麻煩給我一點時間。我簡短的回應。第一點,我所謂健康的逆差,從美國的角度來講,應是配合他的政策。當他的政策是要發展製造業,是要發展人工智慧,是要發展先進製造業的時候,我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體。\n這第一點\n第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好 非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據\n分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明\n那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話\n我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們\n陳冠廷\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:04.994\n總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對\n\n00:21.045 --> 00:49.986\n主要政策裡面是包含科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些\n\n00:51.254 --> 00:51.314\n陳冠廷\n\n01:08.504 --> 01:29.525\n接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查\n\n01:30.586 --> 01:42.015\n那我想請教一下,後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估,安全的資格評估,主要是用哪個單位來審核評估,多久評估一次?\n\n01:43.884 --> 02:09.782\n跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格如果他有問題的話,可能我們就不會錄取他,這是第一點\n\n02:10.763 --> 02:26.901\n進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次\n\n02:27.984 --> 02:46.782\n我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核\n\n02:47.823 --> 03:10.259\n謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。比如說過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。\n\n03:10.879 --> 03:35.699\n第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍\n\n03:37.020 --> 04:02.710\n其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那\n\n04:03.570 --> 04:32.876\n我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統\n\n04:33.536 --> 04:34.157\n我講這麼多的意思是什麼?\n\n04:56.437 --> 05:14.647\n就是我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的安全的合可的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊\n\n05:15.327 --> 05:31.361\n如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常地是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的知識等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關\n\n05:32.742 --> 05:55.439\n那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局也講完了,跟國防部也質詢過,就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話,必須要重新審理出一套安全合可的方法。所謂安全合可的方法就是說,當你的securityclearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密,\n\n05:57.060 --> 06:19.717\n必須在這些政府是共通的就是說我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道\n\n06:20.708 --> 06:42.407\n安全核可配合needtoknow這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外\n\n06:42.907 --> 06:58.063\n除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源\n\n06:59.364 --> 07:25.023\n但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格層級\n\n07:26.444 --> 07:46.344\n其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在\n\n07:48.232 --> 07:58.027\n應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式\n\n07:59.013 --> 08:21.501\n那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解不是這個意思你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說\n\n08:23.016 --> 08:39.806\n除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的\n\n08:40.826 --> 09:01.607\n並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員\n\n09:02.864 --> 09:24.415\n那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛\n\n09:25.015 --> 09:37.591\n所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長\n\n09:47.325 --> 10:01.420\n市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差\n\n10:02.401 --> 10:17.527\n是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個\n\n10:20.808 --> 10:41.498\n你覺得你這樣的說法,未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思,張偉,再麻煩給我一點時間。我簡短的回應。第一點,我所謂健康的逆差,從美國的角度來講,應是配合他的政策。當他的政策是要發展製造業,是要發展人工智慧,是要發展先進製造業的時候,我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體。\n\n10:42.318 --> 10:42.418\n這第一點\n\n11:04.420 --> 11:30.821\n第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據\n\n11:32.162 --> 11:49.294\n分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明\n\n11:50.054 --> 12:11.258\n那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話\n\n12:16.653 --> 12:38.282\n我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們\n\n12:39.224 --> 12:39.264\n陳冠廷\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":4.994,"text":"總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對"},{"start":21.045,"end":49.986,"text":"主要政策裡面是包含科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些"},{"start":51.254,"end":51.314,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":68.504,"end":89.525,"text":"接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查"},{"start":90.586,"end":102.015,"text":"那我想請教一下,後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估,安全的資格評估,主要是用哪個單位來審核評估,多久評估一次?"},{"start":103.884,"end":129.782,"text":"跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格如果他有問題的話,可能我們就不會錄取他,這是第一點"},{"start":130.763,"end":146.901,"text":"進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次"},{"start":147.984,"end":166.782,"text":"我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核"},{"start":167.823,"end":190.259,"text":"謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。比如說過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。"},{"start":190.879,"end":215.699,"text":"第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍"},{"start":217.02,"end":242.71,"text":"其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那"},{"start":243.57,"end":272.876,"text":"我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統"},{"start":273.536,"end":274.157,"text":"我講這麼多的意思是什麼?"},{"start":296.437,"end":314.647,"text":"就是我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的安全的合可的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊"},{"start":315.327,"end":331.361,"text":"如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常地是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的知識等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關"},{"start":332.742,"end":355.439,"text":"那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局也講完了,跟國防部也質詢過,就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話,必須要重新審理出一套安全合可的方法。所謂安全合可的方法就是說,當你的security clearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密,"},{"start":357.06,"end":379.717,"text":"必須在這些政府是共通的就是說我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道"},{"start":380.708,"end":402.407,"text":"安全核可配合need to know這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外"},{"start":402.907,"end":418.063,"text":"除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源"},{"start":419.364,"end":445.023,"text":"但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格層級"},{"start":446.444,"end":466.344,"text":"其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在"},{"start":468.232,"end":478.027,"text":"應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式"},{"start":479.013,"end":501.501,"text":"那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解不是這個意思你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說"},{"start":503.016,"end":519.806,"text":"除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的"},{"start":520.826,"end":541.607,"text":"並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員"},{"start":542.864,"end":564.415,"text":"那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛"},{"start":565.015,"end":577.591,"text":"所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長"},{"start":587.325,"end":601.42,"text":"市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差"},{"start":602.401,"end":617.527,"text":"是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個"},{"start":620.808,"end":641.498,"text":"你覺得你這樣的說法,未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思,張偉,再麻煩給我一點時間。我簡短的回應。第一點,我所謂健康的逆差,從美國的角度來講,應是配合他的政策。當他的政策是要發展製造業,是要發展人工智慧,是要發展先進製造業的時候,我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體。"},{"start":642.318,"end":642.418,"text":"這第一點"},{"start":664.42,"end":690.821,"text":"第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好 非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據"},{"start":692.162,"end":709.294,"text":"分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明"},{"start":710.054,"end":731.258,"text":"那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話"},{"start":736.653,"end":758.282,"text":"我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們"},{"start":759.224,"end":759.264,"text":"陳冠廷"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":257,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時29分）召委，我們請外交部次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長早。次長，總合外交是林佳龍部長新任部長之後的一個主要政策，對不對？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：主要政策裡面是包含我們的科技、資金、人才一起走出去，這樣講也沒有錯嘛！那科技、資金、人才，這三項東西的國際連結，最基礎的東西是什麼？我認為是安全，就是安全許可的機制。","應該也不是今（2024）年到現在，我們給次長看一下，暗網公文也好，或者是我們各個不同外交部門的這一些重要公文，基本上我們都會看到它不斷地這樣子被釋出，其實不只外交部，國防部也有，還有海軍，我看到有很多相關的這些資訊都這樣子不斷地出來。所以前幾天，我在質詢國防部長，接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷在強調，我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全許可機制，已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國情治的單位，都有嚴厲的批判。外交部新進人員在職前都會做一些適性調查，我想請教一下，後續是否有針對其因工作接觸機密的資訊，來進行安全的資格評估？主要是由哪個單位來審核評估？多久評估一次？"],["田次長中光：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的我們分兩個層次，新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前，我們會把這些即將要進入外交部同仁的名單送給法務部調查局，讓調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景、他的品格，如果他有問題的話，可能我們就不會錄取他，這是第一點。進了外交部以後，比較高階的人員，我們採用涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法來查核他。至於多久查一次，我們好像沒有固定多久查一次，我必須說，但是如果同仁有異動的時候，比如他要外放的時候或者回來的時候，或者他要升官的時候，當他階級調整的時候，都會做一些背景的查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝次長，很誠實很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個，從國務院到美國的國防部，甚至它的各個不同的部門，他們的查核機制是持續性查核，這是不斷地在精進中。也就是過去它可能是1年、2年、3年查核一次，但是現在他們覺得因應國家安全的這些挑戰，必須要持續性的查核，這是第一點。第二點，在美國的國務院還有外交安全局，來做他們基本的一些審理，你剛剛提到的法務部，其實過去我在國安會任職的時候，他們有給我們填一張，但基本上政府部門之間是不共通的有關機密等級的核可，也就是你填完這個之後，就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄。但是在美國國務院的安全局裡面，他們評估的範圍其實是非常廣泛的，包含有沒有用過度的酒精，包含有沒有用特殊的藥物，包含他的伴侶、他的配偶，以及他經濟財務狀況有沒有被影響，這些都是持續在做安全核可的，特別是高級官員。但目前我們聽起來，很明顯的，我們沒有這樣子的機制，只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制。依我過去的經驗，基本上你提出來之後，兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況，所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官的對外接觸，他被外放時候所接觸的背景狀況，我們沒有這一個相關的局處去做因應調整。","事實上，現在95%美國的安全核可核發的機構，是由美國國防部底下的國防部反情報安全局來處理的，當然國務院有自己的系統，美國其他的包含聯邦調查局有自己的系統，大概有21個不同的聯邦機構可以自己處理，但是原則上，其他的機構委託由他們的國防部去做處理。之前在歐巴馬政府時代還有一個背景調查局，這是國家一個新的機構，後來直接被整併進去。","我講這麼多的意思是什麼？就是我們今天遇到的總合外交未來一定會跟國科會合作，包含太空科技的交流，這是不是需要更緊密的、安全核可的機制才有辦法辦到；還有經濟部，經貿談判的時候，是不是需要有跨部會的，我才知道你的接密等級到不到啊！如果我們沒有，每一個都各行其是的話，那我認為這對我們未來的國家安全保障是非常具有威脅的。可是我也理解，現在國家機密保護法第十四條有規定，國家機密之知悉、持有或使用，除辦理該機密事項業務者外，以經原核定機關或其上級機關有核定權責人員以書面授權或核准者為限。那我現在要鼓勵的是，我上次跟國安局講過了，對國防部也質詢過了，就是變成我們要有一個跨部會的機制，跟國家情勢、國防、外交、安全有關的話，必須要重新審理出一套安全核可的方法。","所謂安全核可的方法就是，當你的security clearance，比方說你的接密等級是「機密」，它必須在這些政府機構是共通的。就是說，你的安全核可、接密是到「機密」等級，不代表你就可以接觸到外交部「機密」等級的文件。你有這個安全核可，不代表你可以接觸到，除非need to know，除非你必須要知道這些資訊，才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話，那你就可以知道。安全核可配合need to know，這是最基本的一個作法，可是很遺憾的，從國安會到外交部，到其他的部門，我們現在沒有一套完整的跨部會機制。","基本上，美國政府各個聯邦機構，如果你的安全核可比方說是「機密」等級，他們是會互相承認，除非特殊例外，所謂特殊例外就是極端敏感情資的話，他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸，但其實基本上是共通的。所以我們不需要重新發明輪子，因為重新發明輪子需要很長的時間跟資源，但是現在已經到了這個時間點，已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次，不僅僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫，不僅僅是我們友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍，還是外交單位，都一再強調這是我們共同面對的問題。次長是不是可以檢討一下這些方案，跨部會地來討論一下，看看有沒有可能建立一個院版的、重新來思考一下我們的安全核可層級？"],["田次長中光：其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法，行政院和考試院的嘛！但是剛剛您提的跨部會，比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西，我有沒有clearance？可能我們現在……應該是沒有；經濟部要看外交部的東西，可能也是沒有。但是我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式，在保密的情況之下可以去看它的公文。在部會之間可以做這方面的交流，但是我沒有辦法主動到經濟部說「我有這個clearance，我可以看什麼東西」。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是、不是，次長沒有理解我剛剛講的……"],["田次長中光：您是這個意思嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：剛好相反，不好意思。沒關係，次長，我慢慢來，再講一次。"],["田次長中光：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是除非你需要知道，並且有這個核可的層級，你才能知道。沒關係，這個細節的部分我們今天不談，我們今天談的是跨部會這樣的協調和你的接密等級。比方說，我們現在在看很多預算的資料，我有哪些是需要知道的，並且是我有這樣的接密層級，我才能知道。所以我們不是要放寬保密的狀況，而是要加強我們保密的能力。這是一個基本上的不同。你剛剛說公文交換，那其實又回到我們最基礎、最根本的一個問題，像之前國防部內部一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員，他把他不需要知道的東西傳送到其他不同的……等於說他把將級軍官所有的個資透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人。所以，他不需要知道這麼多、他不需要有這麼多渠道，但是他卻有這個渠道，他的接密層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合、不吻合的嘛！所以我必須要說，這是一個跨部會的問題，是需要處理的。我真的希望大家可以討論一下安全核可的部分，各個部門都把它放在心中。","接下來我想要請教一下經濟部陳次長。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長，剛才你有提到我們臺灣大幅度對美順差的部分，你剛剛說這是好的、是良性的、是有利的順差，對美國來講就是逆差啦！是不是可以請你稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的？我剛剛聽到你跟前幾個在野黨的立委解釋，我覺得我們的論述外交部要跟上。經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的喔！但是外交部要跟上，是不是可以針對細節舉例來說明？第二個，你覺得你這樣的說法，未來的川普新政府會接受嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我簡短地回應，第一點，我所謂健康的逆差，從美國的角度來講是配合它的政策，當它的政策是要發展製造業、是要發展人工智慧、是要發展先進製造業的時候，我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體、資通訊產品，或者server，就是伺服器等等，都是有助於美國發展製造業的必要中間財，而且臺灣供應的價格最合理、品質最穩定，而且是最可信賴的夥伴，幾十年來，臺灣幫美國代工從來沒有洩密，從來沒有損毀我們客戶的利益，這是第一點。第二點，剛剛委員是垂詢說，川普政府能不能接受，這個我們只能來努力啦！因為川普不是一個人，它是一個執政團隊，我們要全面性地跟美國執政團隊來溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，非常謝謝次長，剛才的說法我是接受的。第一點，美國現在面臨的是再工業化，再工業化是他們的主軸之一，把製造業留下來，把工作機會留下來。所以，針對這個部分，次長，我們現在不是只有用形容詞，我希望你把數據分享給外交部，讓外交部未來在我們的narrative、我們的說法、我們的架構，不要還是跟川普用過去的一套說法。面對不同的美國政府，要有不同的策略跟戰略去說明。這個部分我是希望次長跟外交部再做……"],["陳次長正祺：我們會、我們會。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別是要有一個說帖讓民眾知道，這也是非常重要的。因為時間的關係，這個部分我就先質詢到這邊，但我還是要強調，現在的總合外交不再是價值外交了，價值外交只是總合外交的一部分。國會議員在質詢的時候不要每次都重複講一些套話，我們或許會買單，美國政府不見得會買單，經濟、貿易、科技方面良性的順差，你要怎麼去解釋，讓對方能夠認可？如果我們解釋不好的話，中國各種不同的錯、假、亂訊息，就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們。現在情勢不同了，我必須很清楚地跟所有外交同仁再講一次，吳釗燮部長不斷強調的價值外交在新的政府的狀況，對總合外交而言，它必須是一部分，但它不能夠成為絕大部分。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，田次長、陳次長請回。","先宣告，待會馬文君委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：我們下面請林憶君委員發言、質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-15","speakers":["林憶君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","林楚茵","陳冠廷","陳永康","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王定宇","洪申翰","邱志偉"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家發展委員會、經濟部報告「美國總統大選後，對於推動台美貿易及科技建\n立合作架構之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00006"}}}